Nightward
08/11/02 06:13 PM
132.234.251.211
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Yeah. For mine, I cannot see how the Blakists got so many troops. Obviously, we don't have the details on how they did what they did, but it would require *MASSIVE* manpower to pull it off. Even if the Free Worlds League and the Capellan Confederation were ignored because they are WoB's allies, the Periphery States were ignored because nobody gives a damn about them anyway, and the Clans were put into the "Too Hard" basket, there are still hundreds of worlds (I do not have the books on hand to quote real numers). Let's say there are 3 or 4 hundred. Let's also say half of those worlds are garrisoned with Regimental-sized forces (which sounds about right). Attacking a planet with anything less than a 3:1 advantage is not only stupid, but suicidal, so the Blakists need between 450 and 600 regiments to do the job. Interdicitions mean diddly squat, because you aren't going to be ferrying trrops around, you'll just be battening down the hatches and waiting for the Wobblies to arrive, then fighting them. The Wobblies have the equal of ten reinforced regiments, give or take a few , plus whatever mercenaries they can scrounge up. Unless half of every Successor State's military is a WoB plant, and they hired all the Mercenaries available (and I doubt units like the Wolf Dragoons, Kell Hounds, Knights of St. Cameron, Legion of the Rising Sun, Group W, Black Thorns, 21st Centauri Lancers etc would sign on for this B.S.), *AND* every Com Guard defected (at least for the duration of the Jihad) I have no idea where they got these troops. The Clans couldn't do the job nearly 20 years ago with the advantages they had, so how could these nut-jobs pull it off?
They can't. The plot writers just said they could (see my earlier post).
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Karagin
08/11/02 06:29 PM
65.133.242.82
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I agree with you 100%...even using BT logic they can't do it.
WAIT! I figuered it out! They have the aliens from FAR COUNTRY on their side and have the lost armies of Amaris and the RWR supporting them! As for mateials they have found these fully automated factories that they can move around to build what they need...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Nightward
08/11/02 06:33 PM
132.234.251.211
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Mmm. And dimensional rifts have placed the full armies of Terra Nova, Macross, Robotech, Gundam, and Neon Genesis under their control. That's pretty much the only way they could do it...
Especially with Antione Mailaux and Boyden Wallis with them. Damn, they are sooooooo cool!
I liked that mission where you blow up the anti-matter bomb. By blowing up the tuck carrying it, mind you. I really liked Antione's closing comment on tha mission: "Eeef you dooon't ahndahstand eeet......keeel eeet." And Boyden Wallis, piloting the mighty Kodiak of Doom, fighting CEF Infantry on that mission, whipping out his Bazooka and saying "Meet...thy....maker!"
Sorry. Got a little bit off track, there...
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Karagin
08/11/02 06:55 PM
65.133.242.82
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Glitter Boy Power Armor versus an Elemental...:D
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Nightward
08/11/02 07:04 PM
132.234.251.211
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I know nothing of the RPGs, just what I can rmember from 6 or 7 years ago when they were on the TV in the mornings. But I remember one of my friends telling me something about that thing. I think. Doesn't it have big spike things that it fires into the ground so it doesn't go airborne when it fires?
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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rock
08/11/02 08:26 PM
152.163.204.196
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"Realistically???" --- I do not see how WoB could get the forces. However, -- It comes down to that the writers say it is so.
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Bob_Richter
08/11/02 09:06 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>Sorry Bob, but that theory was linked to Comstar and the Explore Corps.<<<
Maybe I'm just stupid, but the foregoing sentence means nothing to me, given the context.
Word of Blake IS hiring massive numbers of mercenaries.
And they have some twenty regiments (ten divisions) of their own, and Terra, its production facilities, its massive population to form an army of conscripts. There's quite a lot of manpower there.
>>>And very few mercs worth anything would be joining them. <<<
Mercs work for money, and WOBs money is as good as anyone else's. Better than some, given their excellent treatment of mercenaries.
>>>And to further shoot this idea down there are NOT that many merc units out there who ARE NOT all ready hired by on of the houses or minor powers other then ComStar/WoB....
<<<
No, only about two-thirds of the military power in the Inner Sphere becomes unemployed in a given decade.
Oh wait. That's plenty.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
08/11/02 09:15 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>Let's say there are 3 or 4 hundred.<<<
There are over three hundred in the Lyran Commonwealth alone.
>>>Let's also say half of those worlds are garrisoned with Regimental-sized forces (which sounds about right). <<<
Ridiculous. That would leave many other planets with no defense whatsoever.
>>>Attacking a planet with anything less than a 3:1 advantage is not only stupid, but suicidal, so the Blakists need between 450 and 600 regiments to do the job.<<<
Attacking a POSITION with anything less than a 3:1 advantage is foolhardy. Attacking a PLANET with even forces isn't a bad bet, and 3:1 odds is no insurance at all.
Even then, those numbers would ONLY be required for a simultaneous assault on ALL planets!
>>>and I doubt units like the Wolf Dragoons, Kell Hounds, Knights of St. Cameron, Legion of the Rising Sun, Group W, Black Thorns, 21st Centauri Lancers etc would sign on for this B.S.<<<
Prestigious units are a very small percentage of the available mercenary forces.
>>>The Wobblies have the equal of ten reinforced regiments, give or take a few<<<
Had. A decade ago.
Who's to say what they might have now, with conscriptions from Terra and volunteers from the propagandized FWL, with Terra's 'Mech production and plenty of Mercs?
And they STILL FAIL. Don't forget that. The WOBblies proved to be shooting blanks. They didn't have the force or competance they needed, whether they thought they did or not.
The only sections of the Inner Sphere meaningfully effected were the old Terran Hegemony worlds, which became the Republic of the Sphere, and the Free Worlds League, which recovered nicely.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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BroCaptMaximus
08/11/02 09:31 PM
24.241.176.26
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Yep, the rail gun's recoil would knock them flat on their back without the anchors that they sunk into the ground. I thought that was some very cool fluff. RIFTS was a good game.
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Karagin
08/11/02 10:23 PM
65.129.165.131
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To save time and effort I will suggest that you spend some time reading the other BT boards and you will find out more on a lot of the given topics.
The bottom line is there are NOT enough CANON mercenary units in the game for them to hire to get the size of force they need.
Now you can either live with that and the idea it implies or you can argue other wise.
It's up to you. I don't believe that this, the WoB rise to galatic power, was thought thru fully and thus the holes are showing up. If you disagree that is fine.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
08/11/02 10:25 PM
65.129.165.131
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Bottom line is there not enough areas for the WoB to get the forces they need to even have a chance against any of the IS powers.
There are not enough CANON mercenary units either for them to draw on. So the idea comes down to one that we all know and hate, TPTB say so and thus we are forced to believe it since they said so.
And folks wonder why I get a little upset over lines like that...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
08/11/02 10:27 PM
65.129.165.131
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And you have hit the nail on the head...FPlogic says water allows mechs to come about...so thus we have to take that as they since they have the story set in stone...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
08/11/02 11:30 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>To save time and effort I will suggest that you spend some time reading the other BT boards and you will find out more on a lot of the given topics.<<<
To save time and effort, you will have to explain yourself. Your remark makes no sense in context. Provide a context.
>>>The bottom line is there are NOT enough CANON mercenary units in the game for them to hire to get the size <<<
The bottom line is that the CANON Merc units aren't even a FRACTION of the merc units that the CANON acknowledges to exist. Got that?
>>> don't believe that this, the WoB rise to galatic power, was thought thru fully and thus the holes are showing up.<<<
There was no WOB "rise to galactic power," as you and everyone else here would know if you actually read the things you rant about.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
08/11/02 11:32 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>There are not enough CANON mercenary units either for them to draw on<<<
Stop repeating yourself. It doesn't make you any less wrong (or any more right.)
>>>Bottom line is there not enough areas for the WoB to get the forces they need to even have a chance against any of the IS powers<<<
Thus why they didn't.
I think that's fairly obvious.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
08/12/02 01:08 AM
65.146.75.204
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Okay, Bob, read Explore Corps...that explains who hired most of the mercs NOT under the banner of the House Lords...
Now if that doesn't fill you, then a simple checking of the Merc Handbook will give you a listing of the Canon merc units...that should answer you questions.
Now if that fails to do so, well then I guess you believe the logic that a group that has at the most a limited projection capiablity of their own, with their main power being in the use of weapons of mass destruction, has limited allies and it's only other weapon is communcation interdection that has VERY limited usage...yes this group can really pull of this jihad that cause the being of the end for the Inner Sphere...
Been nice talking to you about this...hope you are having a nice day.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
08/12/02 01:11 AM
65.146.75.204
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The only thing obvious is that TPTB haven't but a lot of logical thought behind this...but since they HAVE appoved it we are stuck with it.
So how about letting us comment on it as we see fit...using the logical facts given via the game background which doesn't support, so again I hope you are having a nice day.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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PeterSmith
08/12/02 11:16 AM
67.37.184.47
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"Okay, Bob, read Explore Corps...that explains who hired most of the mercs NOT under the banner of the House Lords..."
Page 93 of EC:
In reply to:
In fact, ComStar can usually select units with Dragoon Ratings of A or B, while the DCMS must often accept units with Dragoon Ratings of C or even D to fill its mercenary needs.
So ComStar is hiring the better units (that they trust-everybody goes through a probationary period), leaving lower-rated merc units in the EC being under the employ of the DCMS (the other supplier of manpower for the Explorer Corps). Considering the Combine's position on mercenary units has not been the most favorable under the previous leadership I can understand why many mercenary units would not sign on with the DCMS.
"Now if that doesn't fill you, then a simple checking of the Merc Handbook will give you a listing of the Canon merc units"
Mercenary's Handbook (FASA #1616) looks into three Merc Units. The Eridani Light Horse, the Waco Rangers, and Wilson's Hussars. Only three. Further, the 3055 version of the book covers five additional Merc commands. It's the Field Manual that looks into the largest number of Mercenary units, 43 total. It's also the book with this line (on page 5):
In reply to:
Finally, the Mercenary Unit Briefs section is a sampling of the actual Unit Briefs Database maintained on Outreach.
It's not a complete list Karagin. Page 9 in the Field Manual also states that new mercenary commands "...forms every 1.65 Terran-standard days." as well as "...40 percent of all fledgling mercenary commands will be destroyed in battle or disbanded through bankruptcy within six months of their inception."
High turnover, no specific number of mercenary commands ever listed, and for what ammounts to the largest classification of mercenary commands, an employer with a history of being hostile towards mercenaries. It is really that difficult to believe that there are mercenary units available for the WoB to hire, espically when such units as Smithson's Chinese Bandits, the Fifty-first Dark Panzer Jaegers, and Herman's Hermits are employed by the WoB (and there are more-see pp. 48-49, FM:C*).
" guess you believe the logic that a group that has at the most a limited projection capiablity of their own"
Two systems (Gibson and Terra), but one is the single-most developed system (three developed planets as well as one of the few remaining WarShip-capable shipyards).
"with their main power being in the use of weapons of mass destruction"
Actually, that ranks number two on their list of powerful weapons, but you managed to get the right answer below.
"has limited allies"
Though only one and a half Houses are WoB allies (Sun-Tzu keeps things cold enough between House Liao and the WoB that they're not true allies) and a handful of the Periphery powers use the WoB, that's not something to dismiss. Espically when their largest ally, the FWL, has allowed the WoB to siphon off five percent of all weapon deals (ever since their inception, the WoB has been the arms broker for all FWL military equipment).
"and it's only other weapon is communcation interdection that has VERY limited usage"
If it's only of limited usage then why is it one of the most feared powers of ComStar/WoB?
Peter Smith
Power corrupts. Absolute power is kinda neat.
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Karagin
08/12/02 02:31 PM
65.129.165.174
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Again I point out that they DON'T have the manpower to fill their needs, mercs are out since the little stunt the WoB pulled with the Lancers in taking Terra.
Having control of Terra that has at the most TWO planets inhabited, Venus according to the SL SB was going to be abandond do to enviormental problems, doesn't give them much. The world is more of a musem then an arms factory and according to CANON material the SOL system was tapped out natural resources before the SL was formed, you can find that in the SL SB...
So that also adds another mark against them being able to pull it off...
Their allies...I doubt that Thomas will do much since it risks exposing who he isn't and thus cause more harm then good. And Sunny plays everyone off against the other so he is not going to jump on their wagon unless he gains a lot for no cost.
And the Interdication while impressive to the civilians is easily defeated by the fax machines that the FC and DC have as well as using jumpships to bring in messages...slower both of these may be but they work, and given that ComStar is friendly with both the FedSun and the DC odds are an Interdiction will only work on worlds under WoB control or that have allowed WoB to run their HPGs....and this little trick doesn't even effect the Clans since they have their own...
Wow...three strikes against them, can't wait to see how this all explained away as the books come out...this is funnier then the Trekkies arguing over what to do with the Kilgons in Kirk's timeline (TV series) since they look nothing like the ones from Archer's or Picards...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Nightward
08/12/02 05:16 PM
132.234.251.211
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"Even then, those numbers would ONLY be required for a simultaneous assault on ALL planets!"
I thought that was what they did. Someone told me that they pulled off a bunch of high-level assassinations (including several Clan Khans) and then attacked every planet in the Sphere at once. Given what happened in the wake of their little "Jihad", I thought that sounded reasonable. But if they only attacked a few worlds, then maybe they could do what they are supposed to have done. It still doesn't explain what happens elsewhere in their plot lines, though- if the Free Worlds League and the ex-Terran Hegemony were the only ones seriously effected, how did the other scripted events happen? The Federated Commonwealth (Federated Alliance? Lyran Suns? Who knows, these days...) survived the Clan invasion and the Civil War. I doubt an attack from the lunatic fringe would collapse their House, especially given how slow news is supposed to travel throughout Davion space and how poorly educated its people are. The Kuritans are xenophobes, so they wouldn't care what happened in other realms, and even Kenji the Average DC Citizen is fanatically loyal to House Kurita. They wouldn't have fallen. I dunno. Maybe it's less a case of "could they have done it" than "why the *HELL* have Whiz Kidz done this to my game?"
Regardless of whether they had the necessary forces to attack the Inner Sphere wholesale, mercenaries or no, matters not. I really don't think these scripted events are possible. But that's just me.
Finally, Bob and Karagin: Stop baiting each other. You pair would argue over whether or not the sky is blue, I swear...
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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PeterSmith
08/12/02 06:19 PM
4.17.223.29
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"I thought that was what they did. Someone told me that they pulled off a bunch of high-level assassinations (including several Clan Khans) and then attacked every planet in the Sphere at once."
You might want to double-check your sources on that one, or at least see in you can confirm a claim like that from another source. That sounds like somebody decided to fill in the blanks themselves.
Peter Smith
Power corrupts. Absolute power is kinda neat.
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Nightward
08/12/02 06:23 PM
132.234.251.211
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*Shrug*
Could be. That's all I had to work with, though. The "Jurassic Park Effect", eh?
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Bob_Richter
08/12/02 09:46 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>mercs are out since the little stunt the WoB pulled with the Lancers in taking Terra. <<<
FM: Comstar p 47 will dispute you on that, as will the fact that WoB *is* hiring a number of mercenary units.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
08/12/02 09:50 PM
63.173.170.185
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Which Comstar book Bob? The FM or the SB?
And I never said WoB wasn't hiring mercs...I said and please make a note of this, that there ARE NOT ENOUGH MERC UNITS THAT ARE CANON UNITS TO FILL THEIR RANKS TO ALLOW THEM TO HAVE THE MANPOWER TO FIGHT THEIR WAR.
Sorry for the caps but I want to get what I said and mean across to you so you understand it without any problems.
Do have a nice day.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
08/12/02 09:50 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>Someone told me that they pulled off a bunch of high-level assassinations (including several Clan Khans) and then attacked every planet in the Sphere at once.<<<
Someone lied.
>>>I doubt an attack from the lunatic fringe would collapse their House,<<<
It didn't. The Federated Suns and the Lyran (*spits*) Alliance are still alive and kicking.
>>>Kenji the Average DC Citizen is fanatically loyal to House Kurita. They wouldn't have fallen.<<<
They didn't.
>>>I really don't think these scripted events are possible.<<<
You're right. They aren't. Thus why they weren't scripted.
Seems to me you need to do a little more research before you come to conclusions.
>>>You pair would argue over whether or not the sky is blue, I swear... <<<
Only if Karagin would continue to insist that it weren't.
I don't "bait" Karagin, I just try to introduce him to reality. It rarely works.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
08/12/02 09:52 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>Which Comstar book Bob? The FM or the SB?<<<
I said. Go back and read it again.
>>>that there ARE NOT ENOUGH MERC UNITS THAT ARE CANON UNITS TO FILL THEIR RANKS TO ALLOW THEM TO HAVE THE MANPOWER TO FIGHT THEIR WAR. <<<
And Peter Smith has aptly demonstrated that your evidence is insufficient to make that claim.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
08/12/02 09:55 PM
63.173.170.185
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And you have all the facts that everyone who doesn't argee with the idea of the WoB and it's Jihad don't have?
As for baiting no you are not...you are simply attacking...
So have a nice day.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
08/12/02 10:16 PM
63.173.170.185
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No Peter did not. All he proved was that there is NO WAY the WoB can do what is being claimed of them...
And I asked you WHICH BOOK? The Field Manual or the Sourcebook?
And again I point you to Explore Corps as to were a large amount of the Mercenary troops went...
The end results are this, even with what mercs WoB can get their manpower levels ARE NOT close to the levels needed to take on IS troops in number, and the quailty of their troops is a lot lower then the IS units they will be facing...so I can't see them taking one world let alone several and hold them for any length of time...
But it is clear you disagree with this and that is fine...so let's leave it at that before we have a flame war...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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novakitty
08/12/02 10:40 PM
209.242.100.230
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he said field manual
meow
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Karagin
08/12/02 10:51 PM
63.173.170.185
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All that says is three merc units are working for WoB...Three not hundreds...again that doesn't give them the levels of man power to take on IS front line units...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
08/13/02 03:46 AM
4.35.174.250
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I haven't attacked you, Karagin.
Everyone else here will know if I do.
Though you probably can't tell the difference...! 
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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