masdog5
Sergeant
Reged: 08/13/02
Posts: 189
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WOB Jihad....Spoilers....
#37957 - 08/28/02 10:57 PM (205.213.145.140)
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Besides returning to a topic that has been beaten like a dead horse, this post does contain spoilers. You have been warned.
Now then, apparently the comstar page on the MW:DA site has been updated. Apparenty, the WOB doesnt need alot of manpower to start their Jihad. Check out Outreach in Prefecture X.
Using nukes in the first months of the war to wipe out several important planets? Wow...Karagain, i think that answers your question....
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Greyslayer
Major
Reged: 05/11/01
Posts: 1481
Loc: Queensland, Australia
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Re: WOB Jihad....Spoilers....
#37991 - 08/29/02 07:44 AM (216.14.192.226)
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Heh ... I read through it. Rogue mercenaries (who would have ever heard of that ) warships from pirate points and wobby doing everything by their own book without a hitch it seems. Who would've thought?
It reads more like a warped episode of Walker -texas ranger. All we need is have Mr Stone come from New Texas or something to complete to picture.
I'll not harp on about Harlech security forces though since obviously it must've laxed alot since I last had info on that place.
Greyslayer
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masdog5
Sergeant
Reged: 08/13/02
Posts: 189
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Re: WOB Jihad....Spoilers....
#37992 - 08/29/02 07:52 AM (205.213.146.110)
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Not to mention all this slipping by wolfnet...
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masdog5
Sergeant
Reged: 08/13/02
Posts: 189
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Re: WOB Jihad....Spoilers....
#37994 - 08/29/02 07:55 AM (205.213.146.110)
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Yeah, it does seem like a bunch of bull...
But from the WOB standpoint, if you want to bring everyone to their knees while lacking hte physical strenght to do it, you go with your WMDs.
Imagine attaching the Alamo's to some of the anti-ship missiles and hitting most of the Dragoons warships in the first salvos...training be damned, i doubt the warship would have survived....
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The_Nice_Guy
Sergeant
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 362
Loc: Singapore
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Re: WOB Jihad....Spoilers....
#37999 - 08/29/02 08:34 AM (137.132.3.6)
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Plenty of hints were given in TRO: 3067 that everybody was concerned about the massive FWLM fleet falling into the wrong hands.
3 guesses where they turned up, and the first two don't count.
The Angry Guy
-------------------- Beyond common courage. The mark of a true soldier.
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Greyslayer
Major
Reged: 05/11/01
Posts: 1481
Loc: Queensland, Australia
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Re: WOB Jihad....Spoilers....
#38001 - 08/29/02 09:01 AM (216.14.192.226)
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First Guess: Kentucky Fried Cappellan (or KFC) Second Guess: Mobile Kuritan Geisha Services Inc Third Guess: Sylvester the cat. I should've known that cat would stoop to buying warships to finally knock off tweety bird. Just what was Tweety doing on Outreach?
Foghorn: BOY ... I sah .. BOY that is no way to treat a THER-MO NEW-CLE-AIR DEH-VICE..
Greyslayer ... wonders what is the greater fiction. Sylvester with warships or WOB beating Wolf Dragoons with them having no clue on what was coming.
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Cray
General
Reged: 07/27/01
Posts: 3637
Loc: North America
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Re: WOB Jihad....Spoilers....
#38005 - 08/29/02 10:07 AM (64.83.29.242)
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>How the hell did WOB get a warship fleet capable of matching the Dragoons Naval assets, assets equivalent to a successor house with trained crews?
Hello? Titan Shipyards? Free Worlds League at its beck and call? Free Worlds League and the large, technically adept Terran population for crews? Terra's excellent military academies previously run by Comguards, which did have warships, too? Remember, WoB was responsible for pretty much building the Confederation's and FWL's warship fleets, not to mention recovering Star League innumerable ships for the FWL - which ones did it keep to itself?
And, frankly, WoB needs one warship, a corvette even, with several capital missile launchers to wipe out a fleet lacking nukes.
>Wiz Kids is making it seem like WOB is more powerful than the Clans!
You do know FASA had a lot of this Dark Age planned before it folded, right?
>The Dragoons have Clan tech and a more rigorous training program.
So what? Warship crew training (which I don't believe you can show is better than WoB's - you don't know what facilities WoB had in the FWL and on Terra) doesn't matter much when you can nuke your opponent's ships.
>Where would they have hidden such a large fleet?
You do know that, basically, a fleet can just hop out a light-year from a star (to its Oort cloud, for example) where no one ever, ever goes and pretty much remain undetected.
And then there's thousands of uninhabited star systems in the Inner Sphere, not to mention the cooperation of the FWL and the vastness of the Solar System.
>I wish Wiz Kids would pay a little closer attention to details when they come up with stuff like this
You mean Wizkids, who are following FASA's ideas and just tacked on this clicktech idea?
-------------------- Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
General
Reged: 07/27/01
Posts: 3637
Loc: North America
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If you ignore WoB's budget and resources...
#38006 - 08/29/02 10:09 AM (64.83.29.242)
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>Yeah, it does seem like a bunch of bull...
If you don't account for all of WoB's assets and keep regarding the WoBblies as a small cult, yes, it can seem like bull.
Just remember who made the FWL and CC fleets possible, and what warship-related facilities (academies, shipyards) are in the Solar System.
-------------------- Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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BroCaptMaximus
Recruit
Reged: 07/25/02
Posts: 39
Loc: New Mexico
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F#@%!&G H@#$E S#$%
#38008 - 08/29/02 10:37 AM (24.241.176.26)
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That is such F_____G H___E S__T!!!!!!! I can't believe some bone head actually okayed that element of the new story line. I'd really like to know what J@#K A$$ thought that would be a good plot twist. This ranks at the top of my What The F#$K Where they thinking list; right next to the Death of Chewbacca. (Which I might add I haven't forgiven the Star Wars people for yet.) They just wiped out the single most powerful independent unit in the Inner Sphere. I'm in shock!!! If they keep doing stupid stuff like this nobody is gonna give a S#$T about their new timeline. I certainly don't anymore.
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 5663
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: WOB Jihad....Spoilers....
#38009 - 08/29/02 10:39 AM (63.173.170.148)
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All it does is show how WK and FP are killing of older units...it is amazing how the WoB forces just happen to have enough force to beat the Dragoons and just about anyone else they come into fighting against...
As far as all the NBC weapons being used, to me this is an easy way out for them...they don't have to actually come up with any convincing plot lines beyond "They nuked the planet to death" and that is all that is needed...
This is starting to sound more and more like a rushed idea that wasn't fully thought through...
-------------------- Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
General
Reged: 07/27/01
Posts: 3637
Loc: North America
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Re: F#@%!&G H@#$E S#$%
#38010 - 08/29/02 10:42 AM (64.83.29.242)
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>I'd really like to know what J@#K A$$ thought that would be a good plot twist.
FASA, apparently. Too many people were griping about the good ole 3025 days, that the 3050s were too high tech.
Soo...A new dark age. It makes all the "old school" players happy.
-------------------- Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
General
Reged: 07/27/01
Posts: 3637
Loc: North America
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Better than the Clans
#38012 - 08/29/02 10:46 AM (64.83.29.242)
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For some reason, a bunch of religious fanatics strikes me as a better way to have a big war than a bunch of grunting, warmongering barbarians who came from humanity's highest achievement, the Star League.
WoB has Terra, it had its finger seriously into the FWL's shipbuilding pie, and therefore has the resources to give players a big, brawling war. No more pansy mincing around - nukes are used, warships are used, battles across many planets - woohoo.
Cool. Too bad they couldn't get rid of the Clans. Now that was a lame way to generate interest in the game system. Isolate a chunk of expatriates for 250 years and create an artificially warlike society just so they can give a good fight when they carry out their fabled return? Bleh.
-------------------- Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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NathanKell
Major
Reged: 04/30/01
Posts: 1310
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Re: Better than the Clans
#38015 - 08/29/02 12:33 PM (24.44.238.62)
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Hear hear!
Then again, we could just atomize them both.
You are, you realize, ignoring one major point: manpower is fine...as long as the manpower is willing. Do you really think that, after ~6 years of freedom, Terrans would willingly go back to being the slaves of religious wackos? Let alone, would they be their soldiers, and die for said wackos?
-------------------- -NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson
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novakitty
Lieutenant
Reged: 02/18/02
Posts: 447
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Re: Better than the Clans
#38020 - 08/29/02 01:45 PM (209.242.100.230)
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A few years of "re-education" will solve at least 47% of the dissidents. The public executions of the most disapproving 5% will help convince the others.
-------------------- meow
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Nightward
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 05/09/01
Posts: 1701
Loc: Queensland, Australia.
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What the ????
#38023 - 08/29/02 02:37 PM (132.234.251.211)
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*WHAT*?
First, the Wobblies only had like two WarShips- a Vincent and an Essex, IIRC (and I'm not sure I do remember correctly, but they didn't have too many). Second, they made it past WolfNet- WolfNet who apparently have access to every document ever written (and some that weren't, get my drift?), based on what they can come up with in the TROs, 20-Year Update etc. *THEN* they took out the Wolf Dragoons- Elite Mercenaries outfitted with the best of Clan and InnerSphere technology, *AND* all of the smaller Merc units on Outreach looking for work who would have helped out in defence?
Damn, that is *LAME*!
What's next? Warrior House Ijori takes on the entire Sword of Light and wins? Clan Wolf destroyed by two Lances of the Eridani Light Horse? The Capellan Confederation winning a fight..errr...damn! They did that too!
Who writes this stuff? All they have to do to justify their BS is say "There were a bunch of WarShips. Because they nuked everything in sight until it glowed and then orbitally bombarded it in the dark, we have no way of knowing how many there were or who they belonged to. Incidentally, did we mention that the Draconis Combine was totally destroyed when Luthien's sun went supernova? No? Damn, I was sure I'd written that down somewhere...."
*Sigh*. They write so much fiction about the Ares Convention and how everyone sees nuclear and biological weapons as being beneath even a Capellan. And then what do we get? Black May and the Wobblies nuking everything in sight. I know that this is part of the new universe and game they are creating, but...damn! This is really pathetic.
-------------------- Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 5663
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: What the ????
#38025 - 08/29/02 02:52 PM (63.173.170.74)
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I am sure the offical answer would be:
YOU SHOULD HAVE PICKED BETTER FACTIONS TO PLAY.
But hey nothing we the fans say or point out how they are shooting themselves in the foot is going to change anything...they made up their minds about this lame storyline and seem to have forgotten a lot of the older material and we are forced to believe this since it's offical.
I have been saying all along how crazy this whole WoB thing is and how next to impossible it is and this only proves that idea to be correct.
All this does is two things, it forces those who are looking forward to MWDA into that game and shakes lose those of us who have had it with all the massive changes done to Battletech.
The scariest thing here is that do away with the Dragoon with full knowledge that up coming XBOX game has the Dragoons in it...nice to see them wiping out something that couch potatos will link to the game...
But hey they know what they are doing...
-------------------- Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
General
Reged: 07/27/01
Posts: 3637
Loc: North America
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Re: Better than the Clans
#38026 - 08/29/02 02:52 PM (12.78.180.86)
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>You are, you realize, ignoring one major point: manpower is fine...as long as the manpower is willing. Do you really think that, after ~6 years of freedom,
Terrans didn't give a wet fart about the WoB annexation. WoB left them alone so the Terrans didn't care.
>Terrans would willingly go back to being the slaves of religious wackos?
They never were. Comstar kept a largely hands off policy toward Terra. After deeply embarrassing the "Free Terra" movement in the 2800s (by framing them with a horrible attack against a civilian target, of course), Terra was run by the thoroughly secular Bureau of Terran Affairs.
>Let alone, would they be their soldiers, and die for said wackos?
Dude, on Terra? Place of a thousand different regional cultures, religions, and "ancient" cults?
The Wobblies need only a few tens of thousand frontline troops to compete with the Houses. In about 6 years of occupation, the Nazi's got 12000-15000 Dutch volunteers to fight the Soviets - collaborators, not forced recruits. Finding a few thousand people willing to blow $hit up for a cult like WoB in a few years out of 6 billion people ain't hard.
Then there's the FWL, CC, and all the other planets WoB has recruiting centers (HPGs) on.
Spice it up with nukes and you're good to go.
-------------------- Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
General
Reged: 07/27/01
Posts: 3637
Loc: North America
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Oh, come on.
#38029 - 08/29/02 02:56 PM (12.78.180.86)
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>First, the Wobblies only had like two WarShips- a Vincent and an Essex, IIRC
For the Love of...For centuries, Comstar had no military, right?
Wrong. It had a secret army, warships, regiments of troops, etc. for centuries.
Guess what: you're basing your objections on incorrect information. WoB had a lot more warships than those 2. Those 2 were the ones people knew about, the ones FASA wanted you to think WOB had, just like it once wanted you to think Comstar was similarly without firepower.
Come on, people. FASA and its successors clearly set up WOB to be just as sneaky as Comstar was about mustering its forces in secret.
-------------------- Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
General
Reged: 07/27/01
Posts: 3637
Loc: North America
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Based on available information, yes...
#38030 - 08/29/02 02:59 PM (12.78.180.86)
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>I have been saying all along how crazy this whole WoB thing is and how next to impossible it is and this only proves that idea to be correct.
And in 1986 the idea that Comstar could've put garrisons on most Federated Suns worlds would've been declared Bull$hit by most players, because the books clearly said Comstar had no military.
How much of your estimates are based off the "canon" reports of WoB strength? The two warships and the few divisions?
-------------------- Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Nightward
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 05/09/01
Posts: 1701
Loc: Queensland, Australia.
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Re: Oh, come on.
#38031 - 08/29/02 03:02 PM (132.234.251.211)
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That can be argued both ways, my friend. You can say that the Wobblies had hidden forces like the ComGuard etc, and you may be right. However, I regard the "Oh, they had a hidden army" line to be a weak plot device WhizKidz is attempting to use to cover their massive restructuring of the BT universe and/or total screwing over of long-time players. But that's just me. I really don't like what they're doing, because personally I cannot see it happening in the BT universe.
-------------------- Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 5663
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: Based on available information, yes...
#38032 - 08/29/02 03:04 PM (63.173.170.74)
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My estimates come from looking at the cost of each mech, the cost of muntions, the cost of each vehicle and the cost to train the crews and pilots for these. Then I looked at the cost of each warship, the cost to keep it in use and did the same for the fighters and dropships and jumpships and then the cost to train even green crews for these. Added to this is the cost to FEED and house these troops and all of this told me either WoB had found a way to turn lead into gold or that someone forgot how to add at FASA.
As for ComStar garrassion HPG stations...I do believe that each one already had a sercurity force of Adpets who were armed so in affect these could be called garraissoned...
-------------------- Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Nightward
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 05/09/01
Posts: 1701
Loc: Queensland, Australia.
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Re: Based on available information, yes...
#38033 - 08/29/02 03:06 PM (132.234.251.211)
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At least in the case of the Com Guard, they'd scattered a few hints around. Everyone knew that Earth was home to a huge number of 'Mech factories, and had a bunch of advanced technology. There were also the rumours of SLDF Regiments being mothballed there. At least the Com Guard did not wipe out any long-standing, famous units with nuclear weapons and plunge the universe into a civil war...
Again, I understand that this is part of the MW:DA plot line. But that does not mean that I have to like it.
-------------------- Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Nightward
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 05/09/01
Posts: 1701
Loc: Queensland, Australia.
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Re: Better than the Clans
#38034 - 08/29/02 03:08 PM (132.234.251.211)
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Sadly, apparently so
-------------------- Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 5663
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: Oh, come on.
#38035 - 08/29/02 03:10 PM (63.173.170.74)
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Bullcrap from a crap out bull. The idea that WoB can hide everything it's doing from every single intell group is nuts!
And the idea that they can actually pay for this army and navy is just as crazy.
Plus their use of nukes is really pushing things, and again it's another wack at the older CANON material about how the use of said weapons were not used for the given reason in NUMEROUS sourcebooks.
WoB can be sneaky sure...but to be genocidial is really showing that someone didn't want anyone picking WoB as player faction...and the idea that they would go to such links has to make one wonder why...
They really don't gain anything and all this story arc does is piss the fans off and lead to a lot upset customers...
Now if WK/FP are smart they would take heed of this and drop this story line and come up with something better and more universe based and grounded as to be logical in the game. Since if this is what they expect us to believe, then why didn't old crazy Max and his daughter do this prior to the Clan invasion?
I am sure the reason against it then are just as good to be against it now...
-------------------- Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
General
Reged: 07/27/01
Posts: 3637
Loc: North America
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Weak Plot Devices and FASA?
#38036 - 08/29/02 03:11 PM (12.78.180.86)
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>However, I regard the "Oh, they had a hidden army" line to be a weak plot device WhizKidz is attempting to use to cover their massive restructuring of the BT universe and/or total screwing over of long-time players.
Let's recap FASA's weak plot devices: 1) Hanse Davion clone 2) Thomas Marik clone 3) The Combine's War of 3039 stunts 4) The Clans and all things Clan related 5) Joshua Marik clone 6) Word of Blake jihad
I know I missed quite a few of them. But almost all major BT universe changes were bad: the pure BS of the War of 3039, the cheesy Clans, and now WoB.
What's the issue with the jihad? It's par for the course.
-------------------- Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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novakitty
Lieutenant
Reged: 02/18/02
Posts: 447
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Re: Based on available information, yes...
#38037 - 08/29/02 03:13 PM (209.242.100.230)
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Well if we know that earth is home to all these factories, why not let WoB use them?
Truly, there have been signs of WoB's rise at least as far back as the ComStar Sourcebook. The section of "monkey warfare" describes how transmissions that went through WoB HPGs had a tendency to change slightly from what was originally sent. An order of 50 medium lasers becomes 500 with one small edit. The ComStar voice in the book was complaining about how often they paid the difference to make both sides happy while WoB caused the trouble. Now, if the shipment was as large as the WoB made the order, and they had a front to buy the surplus at a low price, that would be an easy way to get more for their money. I suspect they could have done better than that to plan for their jihad.
-------------------- meow
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 5663
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: Weak Plot Devices and FASA?
#38038 - 08/29/02 03:15 PM (63.173.170.74)
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Of all of the events in the BT universe only one has seen the end of two factions. That event was the Amaris Coup. That wiped out the Terran Hegmony and the Rim Worlds Republic.
All of the other events changed the universe by adding in a new set of factions and adjusting borders...NONE of them wiped out whole planets and groups in a single blow.
So no the Jihad doesn't fit the normal pattern of chesse...this is a new kind one that isn't grounded in the BT universe and seems to be setup to remove older units to make room for new ones via MWDA...
-------------------- Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
General
Reged: 07/27/01
Posts: 3637
Loc: North America
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Re: Oh, come on.
#38039 - 08/29/02 03:15 PM (12.78.180.86)
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>The idea that WoB can hide everything it's doing from every single intell group is nuts!
Comstar did. This is no different.
>And the idea that they can actually pay for this army and navy is just as crazy.
They have the telecomm/HPG contracts for quite a few nations, a good chunk of cash coming from the FWL, AND THE TAX BASE OF TERRA and only need a few tens or hundreds of billion of C-bills.
Charge Terrans 170 C-bills a year in taxes - the wealthy, industrialized, Terrans - and WoB has 1 trillion C-bills a year. It's HPGs and telecommunication operations aren't losing money, either.
>Now if WK/FP are smart they would take heed of this and drop this story line
How, pray tell, do you know your views are representative of gamers at large? I don't mean just the small classic BT community, either.
-------------------- Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
General
Reged: 07/27/01
Posts: 3637
Loc: North America
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Re: Weak Plot Devices and FASA?
#38040 - 08/29/02 03:19 PM (12.78.180.86)
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>NONE of them wiped out whole planets and groups in a single blow.
Succession Wars.
>So no the Jihad doesn't fit the normal pattern of chesse...
Actually, it's cooler than usual: BIG WAR. I haven't seen excitement like this since the 4th Succession War. So what if a few factions are gone? That happens in war.
It's too bad the internet wasn't around for the War of 3039 and Clan invasion. The flames would've dwarfed these complaints about the dark ages. What's especially sad is this exact sort of griping occurred over 3E D&D and died down very quickly once people started seeing the game.
-------------------- Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 5663
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: Based on available information, yes...
#38041 - 08/29/02 03:21 PM (63.173.170.74)
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While that is a good possiblity, given that ComStar would have cautioned the companies about this problem the actually net results would have not been that high since each end, the custormer and the seller would come up with their own way to ensure what is actually being bought so for about six months or so, proablly less this might have neted WoB a lot of extra weapons, but not in the numbers they would need to arm everything they have and to have back ups to replace the items that don't work.
Funny things here is I am still seeing the same issues I raised coming up again and again and no answeres are being given to deal with them...all we see is that they (WoB) used nukes or have Terra and with that they should be the Holy Grail to give them everything they need line of reasoning...and yet the basic canon numbers and cost issues are not dealt with at all, yet we are suppose to believe they can do it because they are WoB...if that was the case then why is there still a CapCon or the FRR still around given that they both add to face more powerful foes?
-------------------- Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
General
Reged: 07/27/01
Posts: 3637
Loc: North America
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AARRRRGGGHH!!!
#38042 - 08/29/02 03:21 PM (12.78.180.86)
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>At least in the case of the Com Guard, they'd scattered a few hints around.
THEY SCATTERED SO MANY HINTS ABOUT THE WOB JIHAD IT ISN'T FUNNY!
How many missing warships and FWL budget embezzlement hints do you need? The sourcebooks are loaded with hints pointing toward the jihad.
-------------------- Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Nightward
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 05/09/01
Posts: 1701
Loc: Queensland, Australia.
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Re: Weak Plot Devices and FASA?
#38043 - 08/29/02 03:23 PM (132.234.251.211)
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Well, actually this conflict has claimed a pretty big scalp: Luthien. It's no longer on the map. I just spent a half hour trying to find it on the INN site, and good luck to you if you can do it. So it seems that the WOB built themselves a Death Star and blew it into a million fragments. Or that WK can't find their behind with both hands and an atlas- also a plausible explanation
-------------------- Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 5663
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: Oh, come on.
#38044 - 08/29/02 03:24 PM (63.173.170.74)
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Right they hold Terra and that gives them everything they need...funny...but the SL book stated clearly that the Sol system was running out of raw materials...but hey why worry about canon facts, just rewrite things if you don't like them...
Sorry but for the WoB to amass the forces they do and to have the means to move them around they need an army the size of the old SLDF or bigger...
-------------------- Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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novakitty
Lieutenant
Reged: 02/18/02
Posts: 447
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Re: Oh, come on.
#38045 - 08/29/02 03:26 PM (209.242.100.230)
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"Plus their use of nukes is really pushing things, and again it's another wack at the older CANON material about how the use of said weapons were not used for the given reason in NUMEROUS sourcebooks."
The WoB did not attend the convention that declared nukes as illegal. Even if they did, they would not care, "the nuclear flames will burn away the evils of humanity" or some other one liner that is said over and over, and none of them complain one bit about the weapons.
-------------------- meow
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 5663
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: Weak Plot Devices and FASA?
#38046 - 08/29/02 03:27 PM (63.173.170.74)
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That is four wars fought over a time peroid of years...this Jihad does all of it's damage in one year and manages to take out planets that would have decent defeneces against attacks...
I heard the complaints against the Clans, mostly because of two things Pulse lasers and Targ Computers...and the other big things was their weapons range.
And a looking at the Clan War one sees that the rules the Clans fight by were used to the extreme to keep things balanced. I don't see anything here with this Jihad that is doing that.
-------------------- Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 5663
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: Oh, come on.
#38047 - 08/29/02 03:30 PM (63.173.170.74)
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Using the idea that they didn't go to the Ares Convention is a great one, that makes the Clans extempt from it as well as the FRR and just about every Periphery power as well as the new SLDF...don't see any of them nuke their neighbors to death...
What a perfect loophole to use...falls right in there with mech factories appearing over night etc...
-------------------- Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 5663
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: Weak Plot Devices and FASA?
#38048 - 08/29/02 03:31 PM (63.173.170.74)
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Would a nuclear flash help them?
-------------------- Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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novakitty
Lieutenant
Reged: 02/18/02
Posts: 447
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Re: Based on available information, yes...
#38049 - 08/29/02 03:32 PM (209.242.100.230)
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Until you see the acounting records for WoB, you will say that it is impossible. Maybe we can convince FanPro to release the "How WoB afforded the Jihad" sourcebook.
[ad] In this new, action packed sourcebook, we get to see all the economic data about how the Jihad was afforded. Watch in horror as you see how ofter the WoB ripped-off companies and successor states alike by dishonest use of HPGs. Cringe at the sheer number of bad deals the Free Worlds League agreed to. And expect the surprise of a lifetime when you see how simple it all is. [/ad]
-------------------- meow
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NathanKell
Major
Reged: 04/30/01
Posts: 1310
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Re: Oh, come on.
#38050 - 08/29/02 03:34 PM (24.44.238.62)
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So? That tax base is nothing compared to a House's. Why don't one or more houses do this? I mean, heck, why should only WoB have the benefits of reality?
-------------------- -NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson
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Nightward
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 05/09/01
Posts: 1701
Loc: Queensland, Australia.
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Re: Oh, come on.
#38051 - 08/29/02 03:34 PM (132.234.251.211)
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Aye. Even with the manufacturing cpabilities of Terra, the LC, DC, and the FRR at their hands, the Com Guard couldn't rebuild after Tukayyid. Why should the Wobblies be allowed to?
Oh. That's right. Because WK said the WoB is going to blow up the universe.
*Sigh*
Now, yes. FASA did some pretty extreme stuff- the Com Guard, the War of 3039, cutting the CapCon in half, the Clans- but all in all there were no major, universe-shattering events. Everyone survived. Sure, they might have been a little bit mauled and lost some worlds, but *THEY WERE STILL THERE*. The DCMS tried to destroy the Wolf Dragoons. They rebuilt, but were nuked to pieces. The DCMS, LAAF, and pretty much everyone else tried to destroy the Gray Death. They were rebuilt, but died at the hands of some stupid author. And on and on and on.
None of the old factions remain- Luthien is gone and the DC dust on the wind. The DCMS is gone completely, and I am supposed to accept than some wing-nut "Dragon's Fury" and "Spirit Cat" Factions have replaced them! And the Panther no longer has a PPC but ionstead ballistic weapons! What is with that? The entire old universe is gone.
I am not happy with this.
-------------------- Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 5663
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: AARRRRGGGHH!!!
#38052 - 08/29/02 03:36 PM (63.173.170.74)
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The hints from the Periphery book could be read as a return of the RWR or just about anything else...like oh say the return of the Wolverines.
The other hints about the FWL helping the WoBs seemed to come to a rest with their retaking Terra and the imposter Marik turning down the Primus of the WoB...
The same hints of large mech units etc...could have been part of Sun Tzu little rebuild plan...
All of the hints don't all point towards the WoB...just as saying their holding Terra gives them enought power to take on the IS is a lame idea since if that is the case then why didn't ComStar do it since they held Terra for how long and at any point could have had the massive troop numbers, if you are going with the idea of having Terra gives you tons of men and material, that WoB has now and thus should have been able to take on the Great Houses...
Sorry but this Jihad is a very weak plot and seems to be more of a house cleaning event to make way for the tying in of MWDA.
-------------------- Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 5663
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: Based on available information, yes...
#38054 - 08/29/02 03:39 PM (63.173.170.74)
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Even then I am sorry to say I would question the info, since given the cost of mechs and other items in this universe they overall cost would have WoB bankurpty and falling apart in an effort to pay for it all...but hey TPTB have decreed that they can do it so why should the fans question it?
-------------------- Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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novakitty
Lieutenant
Reged: 02/18/02
Posts: 447
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Re: Oh, come on.
#38055 - 08/29/02 03:40 PM (209.242.100.230)
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The Clans have their own code of honor that prohibits nukes, and the periphery nations would be eradicated if they nuked a house planet or ship. The new SLDF is held to the same standards as the houses that support it.
-------------------- meow
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 5663
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: Better than the Clans
#38056 - 08/29/02 03:41 PM (63.173.170.74)
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I am sure the folks around the areas that the WOBBIES used Chemical weapons would beg to differ with you on that, oh wait they can't they are dead...
-------------------- Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 5663
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: Oh, come on.
#38057 - 08/29/02 03:43 PM (63.173.170.74)
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Ok...then why didn't ComStar use NBC weapons and take over the IS?
Why can only the WoB do this and it's okay? Why haven't one of the other powers done it? And please don't quote the Ares Convention, given that FASA/WK/FP is throwing it out the window...
-------------------- Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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novakitty
Lieutenant
Reged: 02/18/02
Posts: 447
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Re: Oh, come on.
#38058 - 08/29/02 03:49 PM (209.242.100.230)
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Because the others want to rule the IS as it is (or was in the Clan case), WoB wants to reshape the IS into something of their own.
-------------------- meow
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 5663
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: Oh, come on.
#38064 - 08/29/02 05:36 PM (63.173.170.109)
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For the other powers to take the IS would be to reshape it into something they can control, and the same could be said of ComStar's motives up until of say right after Foch shot Waterly.
So again I ask why hadn't ComStar used the same apporach we are forced to believe that WoB is now using to take control of even the worlds around Terra?
If it such an excellent way to hurt the other powers and leave them so devasted that you can take the worlds with ease and all then why hasn't ComStar done it?
-------------------- Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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masdog5
Sergeant
Reged: 08/13/02
Posts: 189
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Re: Oh, come on.
#38067 - 08/29/02 05:43 PM (66.72.236.153)
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IIRC, it was Myndo Waterly, former primus of Comstar, that began actively pursuing the destruction of hte inner sphere so that comstar could rebuild it. Operation Scorpion failed...miserably in some cases.
Until Waterly, I believe that Comstar and its WOB splinter faction never intended to beat the inner sphere into submission. It just happened that the Helm core reversed the technological slide of teh succession wars enough to prepare for the coming of the clans.
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masdog5
Sergeant
Reged: 08/13/02
Posts: 189
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Re: Oh, come on.
#38068 - 08/29/02 05:46 PM (66.72.236.153)
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Because, IIRC, up until Waterly, Blake's mission for comstar was to preserve technology, not become a semi-religious organization bent on reshaping the inner sphere around his divinity.
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novakitty
Lieutenant
Reged: 02/18/02
Posts: 447
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Re: Oh, come on.
#38070 - 08/29/02 05:53 PM (209.242.100.230)
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Because WoB does not see what will follow. It will not take centuries for the Sucessor states to rocever to the point that they could waste WoB if they agreed. In the timeline, this becomes unneccessary because an uprising in the controlled worlds wastes WoB. The WoB fanatacism has caused them to underestimate the difficulty of subjugating the Inner Sphere. ComStar had been planning to use (and encourage) the fighting between the Successor States to weaken the opposition until they knew they could win. When the Clans arrived, they attempted to shift their plans to include these new forces as well.
The methods WoB use are effective, but not enough to fully dominate the Inner Sphere. The other forces typically have a more realistic understanding of what it would take (since the destruction of the Jags at least). Despite the huge losses, the jihad was a failure, it did not reach as far as WoB wanted, and their destruction by dissenters was possible because they wore themselves thin.
Remember, the Dark Age does not encompass all of the Inner Sphere, but it shifts the focus from the politics and wars of grand empires to the conflicts on a few worlds (rarely if ever including more than one world in any given conflict).
-------------------- meow
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novakitty
Lieutenant
Reged: 02/18/02
Posts: 447
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Re: Oh, come on.
#38071 - 08/29/02 05:53 PM (209.242.100.230)
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That too.
-------------------- meow
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 5663
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: Oh, come on.
#38072 - 08/29/02 05:58 PM (63.173.170.109)
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Are we playing the same game?
Funny but everything they seemed to be doing like piting the Houses against each other, attacks on NAIS, etc...don't seem to be much on preservation more like devasation.
May I suggest you pick up the ComStar SOURCEBOOK, not the FM, and give it a read...
-------------------- Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 5663
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: Oh, come on.
#38073 - 08/29/02 06:04 PM (63.173.170.109)
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So ComStar holding Terra wasn't the end all of game and it didn't give them the Holy Grail to attack anyone in mass...thank you for agreeing to that.
And thank you for pointing out how foolish this so called Jihad is. The whole storyline is faulty...you proved it with your comments as have others...to bad that WK/FP and to some extent FASA didn't think it through to see these problems or if they did why didn't that tell them to find a better vehicle to be the push to the dark ages instead of repeating of the Amaris Coup, since the same worlds for the most part are effected again...
-------------------- Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 5663
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: Oh, come on.
#38074 - 08/29/02 06:08 PM (63.173.170.109)
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Can I point you to the Wolf and the Spider graphic novel and the Comstar dealings there...and can I point you to the hints dropped in the Warrior Trilogy about the ComGuard as well as the attack on NAIS by ComStar?
A reading of the old House books and the ComStar sourcebook will show you that ComStar had an active role in setting the houses at each other's throats and were very ruthless in wiping out anyone's attempt to work on technology. Also the framing of the GDL over the Memory core etc...
But hey let's not let the canon game facts get in the way of this oh so perfect storyline of the Jihad...
-------------------- Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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novakitty
Lieutenant
Reged: 02/18/02
Posts: 447
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Re: Oh, come on.
#38075 - 08/29/02 06:10 PM (209.242.100.230)
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The storyline is as good as any I have heard suggested as an alternative. Whether you like it is a matter of personal preference and nothing anyone says can force you to change that.
"instead of repeating of the Amaris Coup, since the same worlds for the most part are effected again... "
For some odd reason, everyone considers the world that humanity began on to be important. For that reason, it will always be the focus of things like this.
-------------------- meow
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masdog5
Sergeant
Reged: 08/13/02
Posts: 189
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Re: Oh, come on.
#38076 - 08/29/02 06:18 PM (66.72.236.153)
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I think the goal of the Jihad was to effect all of the nations simultaneously, and the only part of the map where all five nations have, or in the past had, common borders was in the chaos march. The timing of this couldnt be better either...with 3 nations hurt because of war (FS, LA, and DC).
I will agree that there are a number of poorly thought out plot points. The WOB, in my mind, is poorly thought out. One woman gets axed and a portion of Comstar creates a splinter faction? The prophesied return of the real Thomas Marik (not likely, unless someone at Comstar has been calling Miss Cleo) as the Primus for the WOB?
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 5663
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: Oh, come on.
#38077 - 08/29/02 06:26 PM (63.173.170.109)
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If they used Miss Celo, then they need a refund...
-------------------- Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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masdog5
Sergeant
Reged: 08/13/02
Posts: 189
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Re: Oh, come on.
#38078 - 08/29/02 06:32 PM (66.72.236.153)
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IIRC, wasnt the attack on the NAIS influenced by Waterly? Its been a while since I have read the warrior trilogy. My understanding of the situation between comstar and hte successor states was that Comstar, for the most part, took a hands off approach. The tri-party alliance between the DC, FWL, and CC was created to offset the formation of house Steiner-Davion.
As for the Helm Core, I havent read the GDL saga (cant find it in Library, wont buy it off of ebay because I have been [delelted] too many times by peopel on there). It makes sense htat they wouldnt want it seeing hte light of day, after all, I said there mission was to preserve technology...that doesnt mean they wanted people to recover it.
I have re-read what House Sourcebooks I could download off of the CBT site (see above comment about Ebay about why I dont buy them), and from my reading of them, it rarely mentions comstar at all.
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masdog5
Sergeant
Reged: 08/13/02
Posts: 189
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Re: Weak Plot Devices and FASA?
#38079 - 08/29/02 06:36 PM (66.72.236.153)
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Which map were you looking at, because the only map that mentioned specific planets on the INN site was the map for the republic of the sphere. There was a comparison map that showed it in relation to the other houses of the Inner Sphere.
BTW, where did they come up with the name of Dragons Fury for hte Combine? That sounds kinda cheesy for a powerful warrior nation...
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 5663
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: Oh, come on.
#38080 - 08/29/02 06:43 PM (63.173.170.109)
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I understand your problems with E-Bay...try the Gamer's Union instead they have a nicer auction setup and less chance of getting screwed over.
The best info on what ComStar has done to keep them on the top of the Tech food chain is in the ComStar sourcebook and in some of the novels.
For example a ComStar Agent played a role in the Marik Civil War and convinced Janos brother to try and split the Wolf's Dragoons up in hopes that they would be forced to make a supply run, then the above mentioned attack on NAIS, along with the attack on the derlict Black Lion out near the Taurians etc...the list goes on and on...they have had a hands on apporach in the killing of scienctists who are on the verge of making breakthroughs on tech and that is talked about in detail in the CS SB.
So doing anything to stay on top means that they too could have launched the same kind of attack that WoB is doing now...
-------------------- Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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masdog5
Sergeant
Reged: 08/13/02
Posts: 189
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Re: Oh, come on.
#38081 - 08/29/02 06:56 PM (66.72.236.153)
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'So doing anything to stay on top means that they too could have launched the same kind of attack that WoB is doing now... '
Unlike the WOB, I somehow get the feeling that up until operation scorpion, Comstar did care about its public relations, and doing said attack would have ended up in the destruction of their own technology.
By public relations, I mean that while they might have gotten their hands dirty, they most likely did it in a clean way. The deaths of the scientists in most cases wasnt done openly, because if it had been, they would have lost alot of business and would have had to deal with seizure of their equiptment by the houses and loss of business. The attack on the NAIS was disguised, IIRC, as an attack by Laio's Death Commandos so the Davions wouldnt know Comstar was behind it. Like I said, I havent read the comstar sb, so this is merely speculation.
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NathanKell
Major
Reged: 04/30/01
Posts: 1310
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Re: Oh, come on.
#38082 - 08/29/02 07:07 PM (24.44.238.62)
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Blake's was. Toyama's wasn't.
Toyama succeeded Blake, and therefore had the last laugh.
I point you to: (emphasis added) (from the history of the Minnesota Tribe)
In reply to:
Primus Toyama seemed to hold the Inner Sphere firmly in his grasp when a threat to his dreams suddenly appeared from beyond the Periphery. The attack of the Minnesota tribe on the Combine worlds of Svelvika and Trondheim in 2825 shook ComStar as much as the Draconis Combine. Proceedings of the First Circuit indicate that Toyama believed the attack was the vanguard of Kerensky's return with the Star League Army, a belief supported by reports that this unknown military unit possessed brand-new BattleMechs and used combat tactics similar to those of the SLDF. If the self-exiled Star League troops had returned, it would spell an end to the prophesy of Blake [read: Toyama] and the future of ComStar. The First Circuit responded by dispatching a dozen diplomatic envoy vessels to the Periphery area surrounding the Combine. These ships were charged with the mission of establishing and opening diplomatic relations with the mysterious Minnesota Tribe. For four months the JumpShips scoured the stars searching for some trace of the unit. They were able to follow the trail of the mysterious attackers into the deep Periphery toward the Federated Suns, but then all trace seemed to disappear near Valentina. Subsequent investigations by ROM failed to uncover further information on the attackers.
Who Were Those Masked Men? Our operatives on Richmond managed to penetrate the Combine's investigation team studying the attacks by the so-called Minnesota Tribe. The only concrete evidence recovered thus far has been the body of one of the MechWarriors of the Tribe. The pilot was using a Lancelot BattleMech of exceptionally high quality. Of great interest was the MechWarrior's uniform. The coolant suit was an enhanced version of an SLDF prototype that had yet to reach production when Kerensky's Exodus jumped from the Inner Sphere. Naturally, our agent sabotaged the suit so that its design would not fall into Combine hands. Though the warrior carried no personal effects, his suit displayed two interesting patches. One was the outline of the former North American state of Minnesota, with the numbers "331" faintly stitched on it. Our archives indicate that the number and the symbol are similar to those used by the SLDF's 331st Royal BattleMech Division (The North American Division) that left the Inner Sphere with General Kerensky. The resemblance is strong but the symbols are not identical, indicating that the patch was new rather than an old one reworked. The second patch was also revealing. It depicted a Terran Wolverine, white in color, with bloodied fangs. Our searches have revealed no correlation or connection to the designation of any known military unit meaning that it is new or reorganized unit. We conclude that this unit is indeed a surviving element of Kerensky's Exodus. Though we cannot substantiate this with physical evidence, the above items recovered point to a strong connection with the Exodus fleet. It can also be assumed that this unit has an existing technological and manufacturing base. Unfortunately, it has been impossible to determine either the current location or the destination of these raiders.
-From a summary report to the First Circuit by ROM Precentor Emilio Travis, Minnesota Tribe Investigations, Archive File 222-802, ComStar Archives
-------------------- -NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson
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NathanKell
Major
Reged: 04/30/01
Posts: 1310
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Re: Oh, come on.
#38083 - 08/29/02 07:09 PM (24.44.238.62)
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Simple little summary:
the New ComStar is the Radical Splinter Group. The Word of Blake is true to the historical ComStar.
-------------------- -NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 5663
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: Oh, come on.
#38084 - 08/29/02 07:10 PM (63.173.170.109)
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You are correct that for the most part they used special Ops to deal with things, but they did use open force of arms against House Kurtia over the sister of the Cooridnator not being allowed to leave Luithen to join ComStar after she had signed on...
Even using spec ops to do the dirty works still tipped their hand from time to time with the other houses...they fought several spy vs spy wars with each of the houses at one time or another.
And given their use of terror attacks to crush the Terran's grown unhappiness with ComStar rule shows they would have done anything to stay on top...
I highly recommend your getting the CS SB....
-------------------- Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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NathanKell
Major
Reged: 04/30/01
Posts: 1310
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Re: Oh, come on.
#38085 - 08/29/02 07:12 PM (24.44.238.62)
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Not only was the Concord of Kapteyn designed to counter the FedCom, but it was expressly (read Warrior: En Garde) designed to quickly go toe to toe with it in an armageddon/MAD scenario, thus quickening "Blake [read: Toyama]'s Procephy" of a dark age and ComStar as the light-bringer.
After all, ComStar didn't want a Balance of Power, it wanted either mutual annihilation (2SW) or Dual Annihilation (FedCom vs. Concord).
Have no doubt that, if the 4th SW hadn't begun soon, ComStar would have triggered it.
-------------------- -NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson
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NathanKell
Major
Reged: 04/30/01
Posts: 1310
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Re: WOB Jihad....Spoilers....
#38086 - 08/29/02 07:14 PM (24.44.238.62)
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Well, I'll say this for the topic: it's surely revitalized this lil' place!
-------------------- -NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson
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Greyslayer
Major
Reged: 05/11/01
Posts: 1481
Loc: Queensland, Australia
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Re: WOB Jihad....Spoilers....
#38090 - 08/29/02 09:24 PM (63.12.141.31)
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You know what really gets my goat about all this? Northwind Highlanders still look like they are around. Of all the pathetic, useless and completely moronic things they did on a singular planet scale before the devastation of Outreach was allow Loren Jaffrey to be a character ....
Greyslayer
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Nightmare
Sergeant
Reged: 11/16/01
Posts: 344
Loc: Finland
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Hmm. Looks a bit like the WOB have the Nazi party in charge?
#38095 - 08/29/02 10:06 PM (194.251.240.106)
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Why would I say that? Well, because Germany found it wise to fight a war on several fronts, attacking Russia before they had dealt with the UK. They didn`t actually have the resources to pull it off, but thanks to the twisted nazi ideology and Hitler`s speeches, they thought so. IIRC, Hermann Göring, the Luftwaffe commander, wasn`t much of a commander either. Constantly promising Hitler more than he could deliver meant they lost a good deal of troops and opportunities. Göring, perhaps fearing a loss of status, said airlifting equipment to Stalingrad was possible. You all know how that ended.
I just want to point out that insane leadership doesn`t happen only in books. Also that it doesn`t automatically mean your faction can`t do a LOT of damage before someone stops you cold. The wobblies have money, they can build equipment, they can recruit men. Not enough to actually take over the IS, but apparently enough to make them THINK they can.
-------------------- Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
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realworldviews
Sergeant
Reged: 08/09/01
Posts: 356
Loc: Ga, USA
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Re: WOB Jihad....Spoilers....
#38097 - 08/29/02 10:19 PM (24.98.65.7)
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What, you didn't like Loren....?
-------------------- Colonel Brian Davis
Gamers United
"Dreams become reality, for all who start off with a dream"
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realworldviews
Sergeant
Reged: 08/09/01
Posts: 356
Loc: Ga, USA
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Re: Oh, come on.
#38102 - 08/29/02 10:26 PM (24.98.65.7)
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They really don't gain anything and all this story arc does is piss the fans off and lead to a lot upset customers...
Well the problem is that all of the upset customers are the "old-school" Classic Battletech players. The new age MW:DA players aren't going to care. They may even think that it's kinda cool that people got blown up with nukes.
-------------------- Colonel Brian Davis
Gamers United
"Dreams become reality, for all who start off with a dream"
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Countergod
Lieutenant
Reged: 08/07/02
Posts: 484
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Re: Oh, come on.
#38104 - 08/29/02 10:28 PM (160.39.138.66)
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***They may even think that it's kinda cool that people got blown up with nukes.***
This is a VERY (read sarcasm here) comforting idea, considering the fact that most people who play battle tech are teens, who are the "leaders of our future"
-------------------- ***Chemistry is like art. One wrong move can really ruin your day!***
To: All other empire leaders
From: Maj. NevLord Madman (Mad Man's Marauders [STB] )
Subject: Hi Neveron
Date Sent: 7/12/3222 12:50:00 AM
May i just point out u all suck
Maj. NevLord Madman
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 5663
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: Oh, come on.
#38105 - 08/29/02 10:30 PM (63.173.170.149)
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Right so pissing off the older hard core fans is going to help sell product when possible new fans here the hard core fans complaining and gripping? Must be that new math at work here...
-------------------- Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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realworldviews
Sergeant
Reged: 08/09/01
Posts: 356
Loc: Ga, USA
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Re: Oh, come on.
#38106 - 08/29/02 10:30 PM (24.98.65.7)
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This is a VERY (read sarcasm here) comforting idea, considering the fact that most people who play battle tech are teens, who are the "leaders of our future"
I agree, I totally agree...
-------------------- Colonel Brian Davis
Gamers United
"Dreams become reality, for all who start off with a dream"
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realworldviews
Sergeant
Reged: 08/09/01
Posts: 356
Loc: Ga, USA
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Re: Oh, come on.
#38107 - 08/29/02 10:35 PM (24.98.65.7)
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MATH?!?! They still teach that in schools? I thought it was just try your best and if you don't get the right answer, That's OK. ... No 2+2 does not equal 5, but you tried your best so you get an A. (full of sarcasm)
I just don't think WK feels as much loyalty to us older players as they do this new group of players.
-------------------- Colonel Brian Davis
Gamers United
"Dreams become reality, for all who start off with a dream"
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BroCaptMaximus
Recruit
Reged: 07/25/02
Posts: 39
Loc: New Mexico
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Re: What the ????
#38108 - 08/29/02 10:41 PM (24.241.176.26)
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The scariest thing here is that do away with the Dragoon with full knowledge that up coming XBOX game has the Dragoons in it...nice to see them wiping out something that couch potatos will link to the game...
That's fairly easy to explain actually. IIRC all five regiments of the Dragoons were seldom on Outreach at the same time. One or another of them was often off planet fulfilliing a contract. Therfore it would be very easy to say one or more of the regiments where off planet when those D@#N dirty Wobblies attacked. So as a matter of course it seems that a very large A$$ whipping would be headed the Wobblies way. So as dumb as it is for the Wobblies to have attacked the Dragoons in the first place I think it would be a definite indication of their mental instability that they didn't get all the Dragoons. That would DEFINATELY be a BIG MISTAKE!!! And I for one can't wait to play MechAssault so I can make them regret it for the rest of their misserable lives............BOTH SECONDS!!!!
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 5663
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: Oh, come on.
#38109 - 08/29/02 10:43 PM (63.173.170.149)
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I think you are correct but we can hope that, that kind of thinking changes...eventually.
-------------------- Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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realworldviews
Sergeant
Reged: 08/09/01
Posts: 356
Loc: Ga, USA
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Re: Oh, come on.
#38110 - 08/29/02 10:45 PM (24.98.65.7)
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Yea... there's always hope...
-------------------- Colonel Brian Davis
Gamers United
"Dreams become reality, for all who start off with a dream"
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Countergod
Lieutenant
Reged: 08/07/02
Posts: 484
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Re: Weak Plot Devices and FASA?
#38111 - 08/29/02 10:45 PM (160.39.138.66)
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I still refuse to play AD&D, much less D&D 3E. I have a dying copy of the origional D&D rules
-------------------- ***Chemistry is like art. One wrong move can really ruin your day!***
To: All other empire leaders
From: Maj. NevLord Madman (Mad Man's Marauders [STB] )
Subject: Hi Neveron
Date Sent: 7/12/3222 12:50:00 AM
May i just point out u all suck
Maj. NevLord Madman
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realworldviews
Sergeant
Reged: 08/09/01
Posts: 356
Loc: Ga, USA
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Re: Oh, come on.
#38112 - 08/29/02 10:48 PM (24.98.65.7)
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Personally I am not even going to try to figure out the factions they are using in MW:DA. Steel Wolves, Spirit Cats, Dragons Fury etc. Whatever.
-------------------- Colonel Brian Davis
Gamers United
"Dreams become reality, for all who start off with a dream"
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 5663
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: What the ????
#38113 - 08/29/02 10:48 PM (63.173.170.149)
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Even if they do use that reasoning or something close to it, we all know how the Dragoons will react since like when Janos's brother killed Jousha and the dependants during the Marik Civil War, the Dragoons will be pissed...
While attacking the Dragoons is one thing, it's the use of NBC weapons to do it that seems to be pissing a lot of folks off...
Hey at the rate the Wobbies are going with the nukes I wouldn't be surpries if we don't see rules for nukes in the game here real soon...
-------------------- Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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realworldviews
Sergeant
Reged: 08/09/01
Posts: 356
Loc: Ga, USA
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Re: Weak Plot Devices and FASA?
#38114 - 08/29/02 10:50 PM (24.98.65.7)
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I'm with ya man, I won't even let friends bring it into my house.
Could you change a game anymore and still call it the same name.
-------------------- Colonel Brian Davis
Gamers United
"Dreams become reality, for all who start off with a dream"
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realworldviews
Sergeant
Reged: 08/09/01
Posts: 356
Loc: Ga, USA
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Re: AARRRRGGGHH!!!
#38115 - 08/29/02 10:57 PM (24.98.65.7)
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Sorry but this Jihad is a very weak plot and seems to be more of a house cleaning event to make way for the tying in of MWDA.
The Jihad and the last few novels.
-------------------- Colonel Brian Davis
Gamers United
"Dreams become reality, for all who start off with a dream"
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BroCaptMaximus
Recruit
Reged: 07/25/02
Posts: 39
Loc: New Mexico
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Re: Better than the Clans . . . . . In your opinion.
#38116 - 08/29/02 10:58 PM (24.241.176.26)
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I probally haven't been playing as long as some (only 11 years), but I have read every novel that has been written and have followed along avidly as the Battletech story has progressed. I am outraged with what they are doing to my beloved Battletech universe. It's as bad as what they have done to my Star Wars universe with those D@#N Yuuzhon Vong. I think the WoB Jihad was a dumb idea but I was willing to ignore the stupidity of the situation and see where it lead; but nuking Outreach and virtually wiping out Wolf's Dragoons is going TOO FAR!!!!
In your opinion this Jihad is a better story development device than the clans. In my opinion it is an utter travisty, that serves only to alienate many of the "old-school" players. The Clans may have "unbalanced" the game (sarcasm there by the way) in your opinion, but at least they weren't as dishonorable as the WoB scum. I would much rather fight a Clan warrior with superior weapons and a code of honor on the field of battle than be nuked from orbit but a spinelss, cowardly, bunch of religious fanatics. The Clans at least gave the Inner Sphere a fighting chance by meeting them in honorable combat and as a result the canon units that eveyone is so attached too; GDL, Dragoons, Kell Hounds, Revenants, etc. where able to survive. The WoBblies didn't even give the Dragoons a fighting chance they just nuked them.
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BroCaptMaximus
Recruit
Reged: 07/25/02
Posts: 39
Loc: New Mexico
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Re: What the ????
#38117 - 08/29/02 11:02 PM (24.241.176.26)
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I agree!!
Any D@#N foll can push a button and launch a nuke. I wouldn't be nearly so irate if the WoBblies had actually fought like real men. . . . on the battlefield face to face with those they intend to kill.
Even if they outnumbered the Dragoons 10 to 1 if they fought them on the ground . . . honorably . . .I wouldn't mind. It really rankles that the greatest and most powerful Mercenary force in the IS was laid low with no chance to defend themselves.
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BroCaptMaximus
Recruit
Reged: 07/25/02
Posts: 39
Loc: New Mexico
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Re: Better than the Clans
#38118 - 08/29/02 11:04 PM (24.241.176.26)
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I think I would fall into that 5% then.
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 5663
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: What the ????
#38119 - 08/29/02 11:08 PM (63.173.170.149)
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I agree...even if they fought the Dragoon fleet and won and then landed and then fought the Dragoons in combat and used a single nuke to say take out Harlech or the main Blackwell plant that would have been fine...but to nuke the planet almost into thermonuclear winter is nuts.
I know I am preaching to the quirer but this is a really silly and shallow way to remove older units from the game...wonder if MWDA will have rules for nukes since BT doesn't.
-------------------- Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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BroCaptMaximus
Recruit
Reged: 07/25/02
Posts: 39
Loc: New Mexico
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Re: F#@%!&G H@#$E S#$%
#38120 - 08/29/02 11:16 PM (24.241.176.26)
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Maybe so . . . maybe no. I like to think of myself as "old school" (11 years read all novels) and all this new stuff does is piss me off. I can accept that they needed to do something new or else the Btech world would stagnate, the whole Dark Age think isn't what I don't like. I HATE the dumb A$$ way they did it. A WoB Jihad!!! Does WhizKids think we're all 8 years old or what? Nobody in there right mind is gonna buy that explanation. I guess the problem is that I'm older than the new target audience (cluless teenagers and spoiled little kids all of which have too much money); therefore I'm more skeptical and hence I have a problem swallowing this tripe. I think they could have come up with something a bit more plausible.
But what really makes me blow my top is the senseless destruction of Outreach with nukes. The nukes are very dishonorable; and it justs proves what a bunch of gutless cowards the WoBblies are.
I have one question though:
What purpose does it serve to destroy Outreach and the Dragoons in this fashion?
In my estimation it accomplishes nothing of strategic importance, in fact it causes them more problems cause I doubt they got all the Dragoons in the attack. The new MechAssault game for Xbox hints at this. So now the WoBblies have a pissed off group of elite mercenatries after them. And that can't be good for the WoBblies.
Seriously though I don't think the destruction of Outreach does anything for the new story line, all it does is piss of "old school" players like myself; and therefore it hurts future sells of WhizKids products.
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BroCaptMaximus
Recruit
Reged: 07/25/02
Posts: 39
Loc: New Mexico
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Re: What the ????
#38124 - 08/29/02 11:20 PM (24.241.176.26)
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Sure why not. While they're at it they can make a green, regular and elite nuclear missile launcher that way they can sell more product; cause all the "new players" (a.k.a. youngun's with too much money) will wanna catch 'em all........oops...... I meant collect them all.
D@#N Pokemon. They've ruined the world.
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Nightmare
Sergeant
Reged: 11/16/01
Posts: 344
Loc: Finland
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Re: Better than the Clans . . . . . In your opinion.
#38125 - 08/29/02 11:20 PM (194.251.240.106)
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First off, I thought the Dragoons need to go. Or at least get beaten to pieces. They were cool way back when they arrived, and up to ~3050 or so. The 3050+ bullshit with clantech mechs, vat-grown warriors and an incredible Sphere-wide intelligence service just didn`t strike me as right. Back in the Tales of the Black Widow Company they`re willing to fight over two technicians. That doesn`t look like a unit with the know-how to do anything about advanced tech And they`ve been destroyed a few times since then. Where did they hide their army of Clan-certified techs, engineers and scientists? Oh, they were mothballed on the Warships they left hidden?
-The WoBblies didn't even give the Dragoons a fighting chance they just nuked them.
Effective, yes? Why waste several regiments of troops you`ll need elsewhere just to kill the Dragoons? Besides, the victor writes the history books, so why would the wobblies care about the methods they use?
-------------------- Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 5663
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: Better than the Clans . . . . . In your opinion.
#38127 - 08/29/02 11:26 PM (63.173.170.149)
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Needing to go or to be toned down is two different things...needing to go so badly that they are nuked from orbit is a cheesy and really silly way to deal with them.
As you said the Dragoons had been beaten down hard before and they have lost a lot...why not have that happen again, while repeative at least a hard fought set of battles against the attack Wobbies would have be more expectiable then nukes...
But I guess it's the coolness factor and easy of nukes that went into the thinking here...why worry about a huge set of battles when a couple hundred nukes and biochem weapons can do the same job and make the story easier to forget later on...
Maybe it's me but nukes really don't have a place in this game...
-------------------- Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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MadWolf
Corporal
Reged: 06/18/02
Posts: 172
Loc: Ohio
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okie..... My ten Cents, cause my two cents is free.....
#38133 - 08/30/02 12:16 AM (134.53.144.33)
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Hear Hear !!
I Love the Clan Part of the Story line. The Unbalance Brings Reality. If every one had equal power in the IS Then what would happen?? PEACE. Its the Whole Cold War thing. When america and the Soviet Union had the cold war Nobody really got in each others faces, In the Grand Scale of things. Shure there were people killed and the whole KGB spy stuffs. But No Soilders of the American Units or the Soviet Units Ever crossed Fire. ( Well as far as information released up to this date suggest anyway ) How is WAR started and kept going?
One of two ways : 1 Some one is right and no-one elses is Period. acronym "We Are Right" all religous wars fall in this catagory. 2 The Have-nots want to have and the Haves wish not to share, So the Have-nots Get really pissed and decide to pick a fight with the Haves
Clans Have-not Terra, the IS Have-not the Technology, Both want somthing from the other with out giving up what they Have.
the F____G WoBbies wasteing Outreach Is the 1st scenero. " We Are Right " and since the Crusades showed to be the biggest waste of life in a long time i think the WoBbies will prove to be a waste of a few good years between CBT and that MWDA stuff.....
-------------------- Nothing is Impossible, It is only Improbable.
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The_Nice_Guy
Sergeant
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 362
Loc: Singapore
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Re: Better than the Clans
#38136 - 08/30/02 03:22 AM (137.132.3.7)
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Yeah, I agree with you that it ws a nice way to shake up the IS. But the battles would not be fun if all of them ended like the Black Watch's last stand on Terra during the Amaris Coup.(You win the scenario, but the wobblie commander gets upset and nukes the area.)
And how exactly was Devlin Stone able to win against nukes and warships and bio-weapons and all sort of nasty stuff? Is he god?
So I'm not really angry with the way the Wobblies are behaving, because that is what you would expect of religious fanatics(applies to present day too), but I am REALLY angry at how they made the Wobblies to be chumps once Devlin Stone appears.
The Angry Guy
-------------------- Beyond common courage. The mark of a true soldier.
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The_Nice_Guy
Sergeant
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 362
Loc: Singapore
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Re: Better than the Clans
#38137 - 08/30/02 03:26 AM (137.132.3.7)
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So how does one go about winning battles against a nuke-capable and nuke-WILLING force, with a large warship fleet(courtesy of the FWLM), without resorting to the same?
Next to impossible, I think.
The Angry Guy
-------------------- Beyond common courage. The mark of a true soldier.
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The_Nice_Guy
Sergeant
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 362
Loc: Singapore
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Re: Weak Plot Devices and FASA?
#38138 - 08/30/02 03:32 AM (137.132.3.7)
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Uhm, you can add one more.
Devlin Stone's campaign against the Wobblies, where he managed to beat back a nuke-equipped faction.
The Angry Guy
-------------------- Beyond common courage. The mark of a true soldier.
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The_Nice_Guy
Sergeant
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 362
Loc: Singapore
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Re: AARRRRGGGHH!!!
#38139 - 08/30/02 03:36 AM (137.132.3.7)
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That brings us to one other sticking point qbout the jihad. Why didn't anybody, not even Wolfnet, connect all the dots? And even Sunny boy, bright as he is, should have figured that one out(they even tried to kill him once, doesn't that make him more than a bit wary?!)
Did all the intel agencies suddenly had a brain fart?
The Angry Guy
-------------------- Beyond common courage. The mark of a true soldier.
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The_Nice_Guy
Sergeant
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 362
Loc: Singapore
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Our differences
#38140 - 08/30/02 03:44 AM (137.132.3.7)
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Uhm, the Wobblies ARE religious fanatics.
And we now all know that fanatics have no use for the rules of warfare.
You know, we both hate the idea of the RotS, but the difference between us is which particular parts of the road to the Dark Age we hate.
I could grudgingly swallow the idea of nuke-using Wobblies(religious fanatics) that expanded tremendously in the past few game years and then opening up a can of whoop-ass on the Inner Sphere, but you can't.
But what I can't accept is how the good guys won in the end, because that should not be possible, unless by writer fiat.
The Angry Guy
-------------------- Beyond common courage. The mark of a true soldier.
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The_Nice_Guy
Sergeant
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 362
Loc: Singapore
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The factions in DA
#38141 - 08/30/02 03:53 AM (137.132.3.7)
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It turns out that the various factions offered(Spirit Cats, Swordsworn, etc) are not House units per se, but rather factions formed WITHIN the RotS after the communications breakdown, seeking to re-establish themselves with their patron factions/houses or their own gain.
Thus, the DCMS is still around, probably, but the Dragon's Fury are their reps within the RotS. Likewise for the Swordsworn, Steel Wolves, and Spirit Cats.
For those who might be a bit miffed at me, no, I did not buy MW: DA. I got the info off a friend who did.
-------------------- Beyond common courage. The mark of a true soldier.
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 5663
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: Our differences
#38153 - 08/30/02 05:19 AM (63.173.170.111)
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Actually we are on the same road...I don't like how the universe has a set of bad guys and good guys...I liked the gray that was around prior to the Clans showing up...no one was good and no one was bad, everyone was out to better their faction and themselves personally...daggers happen to be landing in everyone's back...
-------------------- Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 5663
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: AARRRRGGGHH!!!
#38155 - 08/30/02 05:27 AM (63.173.170.111)
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No they didn't have a brain fart...but the offical word would be that the FC's Intell folk were busy fighting a civil war and the DC's Intel folk were busy doing the let's find out who the Black Dragons are, who is doing what in the FC civil war and what are those Bears doing?
Then SAFE is more or less working with WoB, so I guess they are rules out of the Intel part...Sunny boy's spies may have caught it, but given the fighting in the St. Ives Compact and the FC civil war...and then Wolfnet I doubt missed it, they just filed it away tell they could do something about it...ROM (CS) was kind of like the DC in this they had the Clans, FC, WoB and their own stuff going on...so if they caught they were a little pressed to do anything about...
So the blame is all on Victor and Katherine and in away on Hanse's shoulders as well...for all of this.
As to why NONE of the Intell groups tried to do anything about it or even pass it up the chain etc...is beyond me...I am sure the sourcebook that covers this (that is if WK doesn't post everything and then some) will fill us in on why all of the intell agenices in the IS missed this, I am sure those cloaking devices WoB found on Terra, you know the Holy Grail of tech and reasources came in handy as did all of those pouches of plenty and endless holding...
-------------------- Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 5663
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: Better than the Clans
#38156 - 08/30/02 05:29 AM (63.173.170.111)
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They use the Schwartz and then let Auggie Ben Doggie and Ham Salad deal with it?
-------------------- Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Greyslayer
Major
Reged: 05/11/01
Posts: 1481
Loc: Queensland, Australia
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Re: AARRRRGGGHH!!!
#38160 - 08/30/02 05:44 AM (216.14.192.226)
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Connecting dots:
- Sunny killed their leader ... no repurcusions. In fact they 'help' him rebuild his military assets (with what money I have no idea).
- Thomas Marik would spit the dummy bigtime if WOB tried using a single nuke. They would have to neutralise him which would cause a faction-split considering alot considered him primus-in-exile.
- Up until 3063 they were still bombing each other's faction leaders within WOB. Must've been pretty stable eh?
Off the top of my head these dots connect to stop this silly plotline taking place.
Greyslayer
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realworldviews
Sergeant
Reged: 08/09/01
Posts: 356
Loc: Ga, USA
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Re: AARRRRGGGHH!!!
#38161 - 08/30/02 05:54 AM (24.98.65.7)
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mmmmmmmmmmmmm.... Bags of holding and pouches of pleanty.
-------------------- Colonel Brian Davis
Gamers United
"Dreams become reality, for all who start off with a dream"
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ChalengerII
Sergeant Major
Reged: 06/22/02
Posts: 271
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Re: Based on available information, yes...
#38167 - 08/30/02 07:47 AM (62.254.0.4)
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wow 85 replies in under a day
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The_Nice_Guy
Sergeant
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 362
Loc: Singapore
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Re: Our differences
#38168 - 08/30/02 08:02 AM (137.132.3.7)
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If that's the case, the present Dark Age storyline might be what you want.
After all, from what I see so far from DA, nobody's a truly bad guy.
I don't mind bad guys, if they're realistic enough, and their motivations good enough.
But having shades of grey IS a nice facet of the BT universe.
The Angry Guy
-------------------- Beyond common courage. The mark of a true soldier.
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 5663
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: Our differences
#38170 - 08/30/02 08:12 AM (63.173.170.103)
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From what I have seen of the MWDA setting not much of it appeals to me...
The idea to me is while there are mostly grey areas...you are going to run across some folks who are just evil...kind of like what we have here with this current story line dealing with the WoB and their willingness to play god.
-------------------- Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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novakitty
Lieutenant
Reged: 02/18/02
Posts: 447
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Re: WOB Jihad....Spoilers....
#38183 - 08/30/02 09:39 AM (209.242.100.230)
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"Which brings to mind another detail where is WOB getting all their nukes?"
Whether you realize it or not, nuclear weapons are extremely simple, get too much of a certain radioactive isotope pushed together with a reasonable amount of force, and boom. By "disposing of" the waste from semi-backwater worlds who only have fission reactors, a group could manage to get a lot radioactive stuff. A favorite is a form of plutonium that is a byproduct of fission reactors currently in use. This is not the only radioactive material that can be used, but the needed size of a bomb is small and the half-life keeps it volatile for a while.
H-bombs are a fusion based follow-up to a bomb of the above stlye. I do not immediately remember the mechanics of such a weapon, but the force of the explosion is almost open-ended. With a suficient primer-nuke, an h-bomb could be made to pierce some armor on a target warship, blow up (melting and shrapneling the ship) and cause some varying level of damage to anything hit by the swift-moving debris. The fast moving wave of plasma from the bomb casing would also do some damage, but would decrease significantly at distance. Also, you could expect an effect similar to a HPG "stunning" all electronics near the explosion.
-------------------- meow
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The_Nice_Guy
Sergeant
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 362
Loc: Singapore
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Re: WOB Jihad....Spoilers....
#38184 - 08/30/02 10:07 AM (137.132.3.7)
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Any faction with the ability to produce FUSION reactors certainly won't have problems producing FUSION bombs.
Maybe they won't be radioactive, but they still pack a real punch.
The Angry Guy
-------------------- Beyond common courage. The mark of a true soldier.
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novakitty
Lieutenant
Reged: 02/18/02
Posts: 447
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Re: WOB Jihad....Spoilers....
#38186 - 08/30/02 10:12 AM (209.242.100.230)
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Oh, they will be radioactive, they will be...
Not that the radiation will be of any consequence in space* confrontations, but it messes up the soil for a while on planets.
*This is due to the massive abounts of radiation generated by almost every star in existence.
-------------------- meow
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NathanKell
Major
Reged: 04/30/01
Posts: 1310
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Re: WOB Jihad....Spoilers....
#38187 - 08/30/02 10:22 AM (24.44.238.62)
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Folks, THERE ARE BT STATS FOR A NUKE.
The Alamo missile, from Battlespace. Does 1,000 standard pts of damage and "the warship it hits is destroyed, even if it could normally survive the damage". Under BS orbital bombardment rules, the nuke destroys all units and buildings with a 25? hex radius, and all infantry within a 50-hex radius. My best guess is that it's a 100KT tac nuke.
-------------------- -NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson
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novakitty
Lieutenant
Reged: 02/18/02
Posts: 447
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Re: WOB Jihad....Spoilers....
#38190 - 08/30/02 10:30 AM (209.242.100.230)
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Could you (you do have the HMAero beta right?) show us a blatantly dishonorable nukeboat as a conversion of something the WoB has shown a capability to produce to show how easily this weapon could be misused to remove fleets and destroy worlds?
I think this might answer one of the arguments and find both sides in partial error.
-------------------- meow
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NathanKell
Major
Reged: 04/30/01
Posts: 1310
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Re: WOB Jihad....Spoilers....
#38197 - 08/30/02 10:54 AM (24.44.238.62)
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Nope, I'm not of that exalted number.
But, it doesn't matter: the Alamo is a fighter-carried missile. Hopefully, I've already typed up the rules...
But if not: A single Alamo can be carried per fighter; you have to be in the same hex as the (warship) target, and roll 10+. If hit, the warship is destroyed. The Alamo has an "effective Fire Factor of 100", for ground attacks (see above).
Ah:
In reply to:
Orbit to Surface Bombardment
A WarShip in low orbit (just above the space/atmosphere interface) may fire its capital ship bay Fire Factors at surface targets. The 18-kilometer Ground hex of the BattleSpace mapsheet (containing the 1-kilometer Battletech mapboard) must be within the firing arc of the bays used, and must be in range (allowing for the effects of atmosphere). Nominate a hex on the BattleTech map as the target for the bombardment, and roll 2D6 against a To-Hit Number of 10. If the result is equal or greater than the to-hit number, the bombardment has landed directly on target.
If the result is less than the to-hit number, the bombardment deviates from its intended point of impact. Roll 1D6 and consult the Scatter Diagram, p. 38, to determine the direction in which the bombardment missed.
Find the distance in hexes by which the bombardment missed the target by rolling 1D6 and multiplying the result by the difference between the Attack Roll result and the to-hit number. For example, if the result of the Attack Roll was 6, the roll failed to hit by 4 (10 - 6 = 4). The player rolls 1D6 for a result of 4. The strike missed its target by 16 hexes.
Whether the bombardment lands on target or not, the blast will create damage over a large area. The damage from the bombardment will decrease with distance from the point of impact. At the impact point, the damage inflicted will be equal to the number of Fire Factors used for the attack, multiplied by 10. For each hex away form the impact, reduce the damage by 2 Fire Factors (20 points of BattleTech damage). To apply damage to any victims in the blast area, use the angle of attack for damage originating in the impact hex. Woods provide no protection against this type of damage, but if terrain 2 levels higher than either the impact or target hexes lies between the impact point and the target unit, the terrain shields the unit from damage. A victim in the hex of impact will take damage as if punched in the back.
Nuclear Weapons
[skipped fluff]
Any attempt to use an Alamo will require the fighter transporting it to enter the hex of the target (in space or on the ground). The player then rolls 2D6 against a To-Hit Number of 10. If the result is equal to or greater than the to-hit number, the attack succeeds. A successful attack against a target in space will automatically destoy the target, even if the target could normally survive the damage. Attacks against a ground target with an Alamo missile use the space-to-surface bombardment rules, with three exceptions:
No terrain can protect against an atomic weapon.
Remove any terrain features (including hills and lakes) or buildings within 25 hexes of ground zero (the point of impact). Buildings beyond the 25 hex area will take damage normally.
Automatically destroy any infantry within 50 hexes of ground zero. Battle-suited units take damage normally.
Alamo missiles have an effective Fire Factor of 100.
-------------------- -NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson
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NathanKell
Major
Reged: 04/30/01
Posts: 1310
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Re: WOB Jihad....Spoilers....
#38198 - 08/30/02 11:01 AM (24.44.238.62)
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I would hesitantly say that, for house rules, you could equip nuclear warheads on capital missiles; the warhead multiplies their damage by 100. Thus Barracudas do 200 (2000) pts damage, White Sharks 300, Killer Whales 400, and Krakens 1000--whoopee!
Note that to their effective health (2,3,4,10) for PD to kill them is unchanged.
And...No more InstaKill (tm)--nukes just do damage normally; after all, BT armor (and the crew within) survives worse radiation just undergoing intrasystem transit.
-------------------- -NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson
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novakitty
Lieutenant
Reged: 02/18/02
Posts: 447
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Re: WOB Jihad....Spoilers....
#38202 - 08/30/02 11:38 AM (209.242.100.230)
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Radiation is only a true danger to organic (read "human") targets. The outstanding temperatures and force of expansion are what a ship would have to fear. A high end nuke could match the heat and force of a solar flare (in theory at least), and I doubt any ship could survive that. Yet the InstaKill (tm) is a bit irrational, and the big damage multiplier you suggested is a good start.
-------------------- meow
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Nightmare
Sergeant
Reged: 11/16/01
Posts: 344
Loc: Finland
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Re: WOB Jihad....Spoilers....
#38224 - 08/30/02 01:26 PM (194.251.240.106)
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Instakill or not, I`d think the radiation blast of a nuclear explosion would screw up your electronics something fierce. All filters would snap on, safety cutoffs and emergency fuses blow all over the ship. You`d be blind for a good while. Certainly long enough for another capital ship to rip you to pieces.
-------------------- Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
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KamikazeJohnson
Major
Reged: 01/01/02
Posts: 1309
Loc: WINTERpeg, MB, Canada
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Re: Better than the Clans
#38237 - 08/30/02 02:46 PM (142.161.0.92)
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Well, it can be assumed that the Wobbies didn't just nuke EVERYBODY they faced...after all, they likely wanted to claim some spoils of war. Not to mention a limited, although large, supply of such weapons.
So many battles would be fought using few or no nukes etc., allowing a "hero" class character to beat them (especially if they weren't expecting him)
-------------------- I kill $%!^.
And I enjoy the hell out of it.
--Ted Nugent
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novakitty
Lieutenant
Reged: 02/18/02
Posts: 447
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Re: WOB Jihad....Spoilers....
#38242 - 08/30/02 03:25 PM (209.242.100.230)
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You are aware that Hiroshima and Nagisaki were misfires? A faulty nuke can still take out a large area. Also, a typical nuke consists of two or more chunks of the material that are at around 90% of a critical mass that get blown together so the chain reaction is more likely in case of a misfire. Since the first nukes constructed during WWII, the architecture of the bomb has been tweaked to insure an explosion, even if diminished.
Anyway, proper fusion turns stable and nearly stable hydrogen into stable helium. This is what the houses would use as it is much cleaner and easier to fuel once it gets started. A fission reactor is easier to build and start, but requires more expensive heavy radioctive material to run (usually uranium 238). In the reactor, a calculatable amount of uranium fuses with a discarded helium instead of breaking into smaller atoms, this plutonium can then be extracted and makes a very nice base for a nuclear weapon (dirty or true).
-------------------- meow
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NathanKell
Major
Reged: 04/30/01
Posts: 1310
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Re: WOB Jihad....Spoilers....
#38248 - 08/30/02 03:49 PM (24.44.238.62)
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In fact, there was a discussion on this board around the turn of the year about nuclear weapons, and the conclusion was that the Houses *did* have nuclear stockpiles; they just didn't *use* them. From the Battlespace rulebook's section on Weapons of Mass Destruction:
In reply to:
However, no Clan or Inner Sphere force will use these weapons in modern-day warfare: as Theodore Kurita wrote in Modern Tactics, published in 3036: "[the use of weapons of mass destruction] is unethical even by the loose standards of any military definition of right and wrong."
Note that it does not say the weapons are not around; just unused. While almost certainly the Clans do not even have them, they could easily manufacture them; and it is nearly certain the Houses *do* have them, either from stockpiles or recent manufacture; they are just unwilling to either destroy that which they would like to capture, or re-inaugurate the 1st SW.
-------------------- -NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson
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novakitty
Lieutenant
Reged: 02/18/02
Posts: 447
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Re: WOB Jihad....Spoilers....
#38253 - 08/30/02 03:58 PM (209.242.100.230)
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I do not know what kind of numbers were needed for the jihad, and I do not know how well the technology survived.
What I do know is that once the formula and numbers are known (which is what took most of the time to make the first), the rest is finding the element in a reasonably pure state and putting parts together.
There are the Alamo warheads that were mentioned here, but I think that centuries of B movies about giant radioactive gophers helped build a culture that was afraid of using nukes as weapons. This might be why no American cities are building nuclear power plants despite their advantages over all other methods currently in use worldwide.
-------------------- meow
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KamikazeJohnson
Major
Reged: 01/01/02
Posts: 1309
Loc: WINTERpeg, MB, Canada
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Re: WOB Jihad....Spoilers....
#38256 - 08/30/02 04:34 PM (142.161.0.92)
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Note: according to the DC sourcebook, the LC made use of tactical nukes in 2465. True, this is still a great span of time before the WoB Jihad, but it shows that there were nukes to be used at that point, not just abandoned stockpiles on Terra. Don't discount the black market...there were likely many entities who wanted to maintain a supply of nukes...either to use, to hold as a threat, or to have in order to respond on kind if someone else used them first.
-------------------- I kill $%!^.
And I enjoy the hell out of it.
--Ted Nugent
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Countergod
Lieutenant
Reged: 08/07/02
Posts: 484
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Re: WOB Jihad....Spoilers....
#38257 - 08/30/02 05:40 PM (160.39.138.48)
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I would also like to point out that as of 3026, the Lyran Commonweath had atleast 1 tactical nuclear bomb. Read the Sea Skimmer battlehistory in 3026. This indicates that most houses DO have small wones and are just not willing to use them unless in dire situation and assurances that civilian casualties are VERY few (in this case, I believe the only casualties were the skimmer crew, a few platoons of DC infantry, and a few DC tanks + crew).
-------------------- ***Chemistry is like art. One wrong move can really ruin your day!***
To: All other empire leaders
From: Maj. NevLord Madman (Mad Man's Marauders [STB] )
Subject: Hi Neveron
Date Sent: 7/12/3222 12:50:00 AM
May i just point out u all suck
Maj. NevLord Madman
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NathanKell
Major
Reged: 04/30/01
Posts: 1310
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Re: WOB Jihad....Spoilers....
#38259 - 08/30/02 05:48 PM (24.44.238.62)
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Aha! Knew I forgot something major. Thanks.
-------------------- -NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson
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novakitty
Lieutenant
Reged: 02/18/02
Posts: 447
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Re: WOB Jihad....Spoilers....
#38306 - 08/31/02 08:47 AM (209.242.100.230)
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It is not to annihilate the Dragoons (although they did hurt a lot from it), it is to upset everything, get a new villain who will have little or no fan backing, and drop everything into tech level 1 mark 2.
-------------------- meow
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 5663
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: If you ignore WoB's budget and resources...
#38308 - 08/31/02 09:02 AM (63.173.170.79)
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They are a small cult. They DON'T have the monies or the manpower, and this is proven with use of nukes.
Bottom line is this storyline is not thought out and is only being pushed since it fits with the future of MWDA and it's past.
-------------------- Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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novakitty
Lieutenant
Reged: 02/18/02
Posts: 447
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Re: If you ignore WoB's budget and resources...
#38313 - 08/31/02 09:48 AM (209.242.100.230)
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Small is a very vague term, and can be larger than you expect.
-------------------- meow
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 5663
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: If you ignore WoB's budget and resources...
#38324 - 08/31/02 11:53 AM (63.173.170.172)
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Small compared to a house and smaller when compared to some other groups in the game...just because they are a splitter group of ComStar doesn't mean they are all powerful and their using nukes shows HOW desperate they are.
-------------------- Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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novakitty
Lieutenant
Reged: 02/18/02
Posts: 447
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Re: WOB Jihad....Spoilers....
#38339 - 08/31/02 02:31 PM (209.242.100.230)
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I thought it was common consensus that WoB did not have the best tacticians in or out of the IS. The result will not be a full-sphere loss of technology, but the affected areas will be reduced to whatever they already had and what parts of any tech level were locally manufactured.
-------------------- meow
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Tron
Corporal
Reged: 05/01/01
Posts: 168
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
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Re: Our differences
#38478 - 09/02/02 09:28 AM (63.210.213.247)
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Uhmm by that logic you should be somewhat miffed that the WoB used nukes.
When Wob was formed they were heavily fractionalized into 4 main factions which had factions within them as well.
The guy who took over WoB was from the most levelheaded group of the four factions. Though I'm guessing the real marik is the one who is pulling the strings to push WoB into this direction.
Germany during WW2 is a prime example of how good well intentioned people can be influenced by more fervent and overbearing attitudes and be swepted up in the tides. This makes it excuseable for WoB to commit nuclear attacks. BUT.
As soon as the WoB used nukes we wouldn't have needed Devlin Stone to overthrow WoB. WoBs four factions were split in half over their degrees fanaticism and overall ideaology (like the clans warden and crusaders). Even if three out of four factions followed Thomas Marik because of his recognition as primus the least fanatical faction which was originally the one in power would immediately go to efforts to rectify this situation for various reasons.
If comstar troops can defect to get involved in a House civil war then I don't see why Devlin Stone needed to be the sole savior of the entire human travelled galaxy.
FASA screwed the pooch in this storyline a bit.*shrugs* I can accept the storyline because WoB needed some way to do damage but this storyline isn't that great as a whole.
-------------------- "The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote."-Kosh
We are a race that has the ability of going beyond the boundries placed on us. The question we should ask ourselves then is whether or not we should go beyond those boundries?
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masdog5
Sergeant
Reged: 08/13/02
Posts: 189
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Re: Our differences
#38479 - 09/02/02 10:41 AM (205.213.145.98)
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How do we even know if the real thomas marik still exists?
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Tron
Corporal
Reged: 05/01/01
Posts: 168
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
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Re: Our differences
#38482 - 09/02/02 11:49 AM (63.210.219.204)
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It's assumption. You can basically say *insert charismatic crazy personality here* is the real leader behind the WoB Jihad. I'm using the real Marik just because he's an easy likely suspect. Just like the Dancing Joker, respectively speaking.
-------------------- "The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote."-Kosh
We are a race that has the ability of going beyond the boundries placed on us. The question we should ask ourselves then is whether or not we should go beyond those boundries?
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Countergod
Lieutenant
Reged: 08/07/02
Posts: 484
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Re: Our differences
#38489 - 09/02/02 01:14 PM (160.39.137.161)
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According to what I have heard, the real Marik goes in and takes over for the fake one. a civil war starts, and this is won again by Marik (real), but it also pretty much destroys the League. The WoB strikes from League territory, and in Devlin Stone's crusade to destroy the WoB, he wrecks even more havoc in the old League. Translation: League is Shafted, DC is gone, I have even heard that good old Vic is going to die! Though don't quote me, this is from one person, and I have no clue whether this is right!
-------------------- ***Chemistry is like art. One wrong move can really ruin your day!***
To: All other empire leaders
From: Maj. NevLord Madman (Mad Man's Marauders [STB] )
Subject: Hi Neveron
Date Sent: 7/12/3222 12:50:00 AM
May i just point out u all suck
Maj. NevLord Madman
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masdog5
Sergeant
Reged: 08/13/02
Posts: 189
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Re: Our differences
#38506 - 09/02/02 08:42 PM (205.213.145.98)
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From whats on the comstar site, it does mention that the league gets shattered. Beyond that, it really doesnt say anything about the other nations, and the map of the inner sphere (the small one used to show how small the RotS is) shows both House Marik and House Kurita on it.
Also, I doubt Victor dies because the brief history of the RotS mentions that without Victors support of Devlin Stone and his ideas, the RotS would never have been created.
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Countergod
Lieutenant
Reged: 08/07/02
Posts: 484
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Re: Our differences
#38507 - 09/02/02 08:56 PM (160.39.137.161)
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I dont know, I am just quoting hearsay and seeing what people think. I agree that Vic dying is a bit farfetched, but I wanted to see other people's ideas. Also, If i didnt say it before, I meant to say that the League and the DC is pretty much gone, not completely gone (though they might not want to show an entire house dying) I mean, no matter what, not all the League is going to follow the real Marik if he does take over, and the DC capital is gone, and I thought it was the belief that if the Capital falls, that the entire DC would fall apart (alteast this is what the trilogy that introduced the clans seemed to think...). also what is this site everyone's talking about?
-------------------- ***Chemistry is like art. One wrong move can really ruin your day!***
To: All other empire leaders
From: Maj. NevLord Madman (Mad Man's Marauders [STB] )
Subject: Hi Neveron
Date Sent: 7/12/3222 12:50:00 AM
May i just point out u all suck
Maj. NevLord Madman
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masdog5
Sergeant
Reged: 08/13/02
Posts: 189
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Re: Our differences
#38521 - 09/03/02 01:27 AM (205.213.145.98)
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As far as I know, Black Luthien is still there. There hasnt been anything mentioned about it being destroyed, it just isnt on the map because the map doesnt cover that region of space. It is rumored that theodore dies during hte Jihad, leaving hte nation in Hohiros hands.
Personally, it would make things alot more interesting if a few of the houses did shatter or fragment into smaller states. I could easily see this happen to the FWL since its democracy is delicate.
The comstar site is a site run by WizKids that gives news, spoilers, etc on the MW:DA universe. You can find it on the main wiz kids page.
Edited by masdog5 (09/03/02 01:32 AM)
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The_Nice_Guy
Sergeant
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 362
Loc: Singapore
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Re: Our differences
#38526 - 09/03/02 06:12 AM (137.132.3.10)
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Surprised that the Wobblies used nukes?
No, I wasn't. In fact, the writing was already on the wall. What I did not like was the rather off hand manner in which the Wobblies were beaten in the end.
And you were partly right in that the heavily factionalized WoB did not seem to have the unity to carry out such an assault. However, take note that for the 5 years of the FC Civil War, a lot of 'restructuring' might have taken place in the WoB itself. For example, in FM: Comstar, it was noted that the Shunners were wiped out. What other moves have the Toyama made in five years?
The part that really rankles me is how Devlin Stone can beat nuclear weapon equipped forces without becoming a radioactive smear on the ground or in space. How did he evade naval blockades? How did he get the warships/dropships to even gain some recognition at the start? Why didn't the Wobblies, with the best intel/black ops people in the galaxy, not take him out with a well placed assassin posing as a recruit?
I said that if TPTB wanted to wipe the slate clean, then do so in a manner that is realistic. Have everybody use nukes back at the Wobblies. Bombard everybody into dust. Then have the clans come in and get wiped too. But DO NOT have an uber character come in and wipe the floor by writer fiat just because they want to set up the RotS for DA.
And if you look carefully, I have already expressed my doubts about MW: DA.
The Angry Guy
-------------------- Beyond common courage. The mark of a true soldier.
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BA_Evans
Private
Reged: 05/16/01
Posts: 58
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Re: Weak Plot Devices and FASA?
#38550 - 09/03/02 12:07 PM (65.194.182.3)
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To be fair, WizKids implemented the WOB vs. Devlin Stone story line.
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BA_Evans
Private
Reged: 05/16/01
Posts: 58
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Re: Better than the Clans . . . . . In your opinion.
#38553 - 09/03/02 12:23 PM (65.194.182.3)
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Would you give the Dragoons a fighting chance if you were the WOB commander? I know I wouldn't.
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 5663
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: Better than the Clans . . . . . In your opinion.
#38554 - 09/03/02 12:30 PM (63.173.170.21)
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But nuking the hell of the planet and others as well is a more fitting way to fight?
Why even play if all you are going to is nuke the other side...makes the whole point of the game pointless. But hey it works really well at pushing out the old fan bases and sending the game right into MWDA timeline and frame of mind...and really gives the target market, YOUNG teenage boys an interesting lesson...if you don't like something get a bigger and DEADLIER hammer and beat it down...nice message they are selling.
-------------------- Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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BA_Evans
Private
Reged: 05/16/01
Posts: 58
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Re: Better than the Clans
#38555 - 09/03/02 12:31 PM (65.194.182.3)
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You are not allowed to choose. Father WOB will make all of your decisions for you.
Muhahahahahaha
Edited by BA_Evans (09/03/02 12:34 PM)
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Nightward
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 05/09/01
Posts: 1701
Loc: Queensland, Australia.
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Re: Our differences
#38564 - 09/03/02 02:15 PM (132.234.251.211)
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Unless I missed something big, the Shunners' dome just imploded. There was nothing about Toyama involvement. On the other hand, it wouldn't surprise me if one faction was trying to do another in- particularly the True Believers :P
Oh, and on "Uber Characters"- maybe Devlin Stone has Morgan's Gift, and no sensor or targeting system can track him. Yes. Yes, that must be it. And somehow, he can project this over all of his friends....wait, I know! Yorinaga Kurita survived his Seppuku Ceremony! HE'S BACK FROM THE GRAVE!
-------------------- Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Nightward
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 05/09/01
Posts: 1701
Loc: Queensland, Australia.
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Re: Our differences
#38566 - 09/03/02 02:23 PM (132.234.251.211)
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Well, the map actually does cover that region of space. Luthien just isn't on it. I've heard that the map only shows worlds that are part of the Republic, so maybe Luthien has not joined- though this begs the question as to why every other DC world is present on the map. Whilst I can very well understand the FWL falling to pieces (particularly the Duchy of Andurien), the DC is not like that- even the lowest street bum is fanatically loyal to the Combine and Lord Kurita. That is one of the things that has held the DC together through the ages. And as for the idea that any DC citizen would stand for the idea of being ruled by anybody else *degenerates into mad laughter*.
I'm really not happy with this BS they've cooked up for MW: DA.
-------------------- Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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masdog5
Sergeant
Reged: 08/13/02
Posts: 189
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Re: Our differences
#38587 - 09/03/02 05:28 PM (66.72.232.20)
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The map covers the area that was the old Terran Hegemony. Yes, DC worlds, particularly those in the Dieron district and some of the ones that were on along the DC/FS border, are on the map. There is another map, a very generalized one, that shows the RotS in relation to the great houses, and it shows that the RotS doesnt even go deep enough into the combine to be near Luthien.
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Nightmare
Sergeant
Reged: 11/16/01
Posts: 344
Loc: Finland
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Re: Better than the Clans . . . . . In your opinion.
#38611 - 09/03/02 09:45 PM (194.251.240.106)
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-But nuking the hell of the planet and others as well is a more fitting way to fight? -Why even play if all you are going to is nuke the other side...makes the whole point of the game pointless.
Well, apparently they are`t going to publish any BattlePack:WoB Jihad.
-------------------- Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
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The_Nice_Guy
Sergeant
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 362
Loc: Singapore
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LOL!
#38616 - 09/03/02 10:08 PM (137.132.3.8)
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General scenario rules: Applies to all scenarios in this battlepack.
1. Even if the anti-wobblie forces win, the wobblies ues a strategic nuke to vaporize the area, resulting only in a moral victory for the anti-wob forces. 2. Wobblies get orbital bombardment in all scenarios. Their opponents don't. 3. Wobblies get to use special tactical nukes which operate like Arrow IV missiles, but instead of dealing 20 points of damage, destroys all units within the hex. 4. Only Devlin Stone is able to walk unscathed through nuclear attacks.
The Angry Guy
-------------------- Beyond common courage. The mark of a true soldier.
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realworldviews
Sergeant
Reged: 08/09/01
Posts: 356
Loc: Ga, USA
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Re: LOL!
#38620 - 09/03/02 10:21 PM (24.98.65.7)
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3. Wobblies get to use special tactical nukes which operate like Arrow IV missiles, but instead of dealing 20 points of damage, destroys all units within the hex.
Just the hex, I think it should at least be "destroys all units within 3 hexes of target hex"
If your gonna make chesse, make it really cheesey.
-------------------- Colonel Brian Davis
Gamers United
"Dreams become reality, for all who start off with a dream"
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Acolyte
Captain
Reged: 05/07/01
Posts: 964
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Re: LOL!
#38625 - 09/04/02 12:13 AM (142.179.27.248)
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Use the BattleSpace rules!
Everything in the target hex is destroyed. Starting 1 hex away everything takes 100 fire factors (10 pts per). This is reduced by 2 fire factors per hex (i.e 98 at 2, 96 at three....). Remove any terain features within 25 hexes, hills, lakes, buildings, ect. Kills any infantry within 50. No terrain will protect from any effect or damage.
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Light a fire for a man, and you keep him warm for one night,
Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Acolyte
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NathanKell
Major
Reged: 04/30/01
Posts: 1310
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Re: LOL!
#38640 - 09/04/02 09:19 AM (24.44.238.62)
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And that's just IMO a little bitty tac nuke (100kt).
Fear the 100MT busters.
-------------------- -NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 5663
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: LOL!
#38642 - 09/04/02 09:30 AM (63.173.170.45)
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Hey for the WoB a hex is a big as the whole bloody planet....thus a couple of nukes will do the trick, then they toss in biochem weapons to make sure everyone is dead...much easier to run the planet if everyone is dead...though taxes might be hard to collect...
-------------------- Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Tron
Corporal
Reged: 05/01/01
Posts: 168
Loc: Brooklyn, NY
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Re: Better than the Clans . . . . . In your opinion.
#38663 - 09/04/02 01:35 PM (64.154.79.201)
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"Maybe it's me but nukes really don't have a place in this game... "
If nukes didn't have any place in this game then you might as well write off the Black Watch Scenario, the Wolverine/Raven Scenario and the first two Succession wars which are the defining precedent for 3025 tech and culture.
Yes I understand what you meant by it having no place in the game but that comment cuts two additional ways.
Nukes have already been established in the games way before this fiasco of a plot device and it has been an underlying cause to the creation of an environment which you love to play in.
This is exactly what FASA is doing.
They are combing the success of their old universe with the greater ease of play of MAgeknight. We are ultimately the audience watching a wedding more horrifying than the Fedcom.
-------------------- "The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote."-Kosh
We are a race that has the ability of going beyond the boundries placed on us. The question we should ask ourselves then is whether or not we should go beyond those boundries?
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Acolyte
Captain
Reged: 05/07/01
Posts: 964
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Re: LOL!
#38669 - 09/04/02 02:04 PM (142.179.27.248)
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Yep. That's the Arrow IV sized Alimo missile. Total missile weight: 200 kg's or so.
--------------------
Light a fire for a man, and you keep him warm for one night,
Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Acolyte
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Nightward
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 05/09/01
Posts: 1701
Loc: Queensland, Australia.
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Re: Our differences
#38671 - 09/04/02 02:08 PM (132.234.251.211)
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Ahhhhhh *Lightbulb goes on*
I see. I thought everyone signed on. Gotcha.
-------------------- Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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realworldviews
Sergeant
Reged: 08/09/01
Posts: 356
Loc: Ga, USA
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Re: LOL!
#38700 - 09/04/02 06:37 PM (24.98.65.7)
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That works. That sound like it is just cheesy enough to work.
-------------------- Colonel Brian Davis
Gamers United
"Dreams become reality, for all who start off with a dream"
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Chunga
Private
Reged: 01/20/02
Posts: 51
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Re: Oh, come on.
#38772 - 09/05/02 08:38 PM (24.211.1.73)
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In reply to:
Now if WK/FP are smart they would take heed of this and drop this story line and come up with something better and more universe based and grounded as to be logical in the game.In reply to:
Yeah, that'll happen.
Keep dreamin'.
Chunga
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Chunga
Private
Reged: 01/20/02
Posts: 51
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Re: Weak Plot Devices and FASA?
#38774 - 09/05/02 08:45 PM (24.211.1.73)
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In reply to:
It's too bad the internet wasn't around for the War of 3039 and Clan invasion. The flames would've dwarfed these complaints about the dark ages. What's especially sad is this exact sort of griping occurred over 3E D&D and died down very quickly once people started seeing the game.
This is Karagin. He'll never die down.
Chunga
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 5663
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: Oh, come on.
#38776 - 09/05/02 09:51 PM (63.173.170.225)
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Right I forgot you have lunch every day with heads of WK...and they tell you everything...gotta remember that...
Talk about dreaming...let us know when you wake up.
-------------------- Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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