masdog5
08/29/02 01:57 AM
205.213.145.140
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Besides returning to a topic that has been beaten like a dead horse, this post does contain spoilers. You have been warned.
Now then, apparently the comstar page on the MW:DA site has been updated. Apparenty, the WOB doesnt need alot of manpower to start their Jihad. Check out Outreach in Prefecture X.
Using nukes in the first months of the war to wipe out several important planets? Wow...Karagain, i think that answers your question....
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Greyslayer
08/29/02 10:44 AM
216.14.192.226
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Heh ... I read through it. Rogue mercenaries (who would have ever heard of that  ) warships from pirate points and wobby doing everything by their own book without a hitch it seems. Who would've thought?
It reads more like a warped episode of Walker -texas ranger. All we need is have Mr Stone come from New Texas or something to complete to picture.
I'll not harp on about Harlech security forces though since obviously it must've laxed alot since I last had info on that place.
Greyslayer
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masdog5
08/29/02 10:52 AM
205.213.146.110
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Not to mention all this slipping by wolfnet...
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masdog5
08/29/02 10:55 AM
205.213.146.110
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Yeah, it does seem like a bunch of bull...
But from the WOB standpoint, if you want to bring everyone to their knees while lacking hte physical strenght to do it, you go with your WMDs.
Imagine attaching the Alamo's to some of the anti-ship missiles and hitting most of the Dragoons warships in the first salvos...training be damned, i doubt the warship would have survived....
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The_Nice_Guy
08/29/02 11:34 AM
137.132.3.6
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Plenty of hints were given in TRO: 3067 that everybody was concerned about the massive FWLM fleet falling into the wrong hands.
3 guesses where they turned up, and the first two don't count.
The Angry Guy
Beyond common courage. The mark of a true soldier.
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Greyslayer
08/29/02 12:01 PM
216.14.192.226
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First Guess: Kentucky Fried Cappellan (or KFC)
Second Guess: Mobile Kuritan Geisha Services Inc
Third Guess: Sylvester the cat. I should've known that cat would stoop to buying warships to finally knock off tweety bird. Just what was Tweety doing on Outreach?
Foghorn: BOY ... I sah .. BOY that is no way to treat a THER-MO NEW-CLE-AIR DEH-VICE..
Greyslayer ... wonders what is the greater fiction. Sylvester with warships or WOB beating Wolf Dragoons with them having no clue on what was coming.
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Cray
08/29/02 01:07 PM
64.83.29.242
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>How the hell did WOB get a warship fleet capable of matching the Dragoons Naval assets, assets equivalent to a successor house with trained crews?
Hello? Titan Shipyards? Free Worlds League at its beck and call? Free Worlds League and the large, technically adept Terran population for crews? Terra's excellent military academies previously run by Comguards, which did have warships, too? Remember, WoB was responsible for pretty much building the Confederation's and FWL's warship fleets, not to mention recovering Star League innumerable ships for the FWL - which ones did it keep to itself?
And, frankly, WoB needs one warship, a corvette even, with several capital missile launchers to wipe out a fleet lacking nukes.
>Wiz Kids is making it seem like WOB is more powerful than the Clans!
You do know FASA had a lot of this Dark Age planned before it folded, right?
>The Dragoons have Clan tech and a more rigorous training program.
So what? Warship crew training (which I don't believe you can show is better than WoB's - you don't know what facilities WoB had in the FWL and on Terra) doesn't matter much when you can nuke your opponent's ships.
>Where would they have hidden such a large fleet?
You do know that, basically, a fleet can just hop out a light-year from a star (to its Oort cloud, for example) where no one ever, ever goes and pretty much remain undetected.
And then there's thousands of uninhabited star systems in the Inner Sphere, not to mention the cooperation of the FWL and the vastness of the Solar System.
>I wish Wiz Kids would pay a little closer attention to details when they come up with stuff like this
You mean Wizkids, who are following FASA's ideas and just tacked on this clicktech idea?
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
08/29/02 01:09 PM
64.83.29.242
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>Yeah, it does seem like a bunch of bull...
If you don't account for all of WoB's assets and keep regarding the WoBblies as a small cult, yes, it can seem like bull.
Just remember who made the FWL and CC fleets possible, and what warship-related facilities (academies, shipyards) are in the Solar System.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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BroCaptMaximus
08/29/02 01:37 PM
24.241.176.26
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That is such F_____G H___E S__T!!!!!!! I can't believe some bone head actually okayed that element of the new story line. I'd really like to know what J@#K A$$ thought that would be a good plot twist. This ranks at the top of my What The F#$K Where they thinking list; right next to the Death of Chewbacca. (Which I might add I haven't forgiven the Star Wars people for yet.) They just wiped out the single most powerful independent unit in the Inner Sphere. I'm in shock!!!
If they keep doing stupid stuff like this nobody is gonna give a S#$T about their new timeline. I certainly don't anymore.
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Karagin
08/29/02 01:39 PM
63.173.170.148
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All it does is show how WK and FP are killing of older units...it is amazing how the WoB forces just happen to have enough force to beat the Dragoons and just about anyone else they come into fighting against...
As far as all the NBC weapons being used, to me this is an easy way out for them...they don't have to actually come up with any convincing plot lines beyond "They nuked the planet to death" and that is all that is needed...
This is starting to sound more and more like a rushed idea that wasn't fully thought through...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
08/29/02 01:42 PM
64.83.29.242
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>I'd really like to know what J@#K A$$ thought that would be a good plot twist.
FASA, apparently. Too many people were griping about the good ole 3025 days, that the 3050s were too high tech.
Soo...A new dark age. It makes all the "old school" players happy.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
08/29/02 01:46 PM
64.83.29.242
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For some reason, a bunch of religious fanatics strikes me as a better way to have a big war than a bunch of grunting, warmongering barbarians who came from humanity's highest achievement, the Star League.
WoB has Terra, it had its finger seriously into the FWL's shipbuilding pie, and therefore has the resources to give players a big, brawling war. No more pansy mincing around - nukes are used, warships are used, battles across many planets - woohoo.
Cool. Too bad they couldn't get rid of the Clans. Now that was a lame way to generate interest in the game system. Isolate a chunk of expatriates for 250 years and create an artificially warlike society just so they can give a good fight when they carry out their fabled return? Bleh.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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NathanKell
08/29/02 03:33 PM
24.44.238.62
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Hear hear!
Then again, we could just atomize them both.
You are, you realize, ignoring one major point: manpower is fine...as long as the manpower is willing. Do you really think that, after ~6 years of freedom, Terrans would willingly go back to being the slaves of religious wackos? Let alone, would they be their soldiers, and die for said wackos?
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
novakitty
08/29/02 04:45 PM
209.242.100.230
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A few years of "re-education" will solve at least 47% of the dissidents. The public executions of the most disapproving 5% will help convince the others.
meow
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Nightward
08/29/02 05:37 PM
132.234.251.211
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*WHAT*?
First, the Wobblies only had like two WarShips- a Vincent and an Essex, IIRC (and I'm not sure I do remember correctly, but they didn't have too many). Second, they made it past WolfNet- WolfNet who apparently have access to every document ever written (and some that weren't, get my drift?), based on what they can come up with in the TROs, 20-Year Update etc. *THEN* they took out the Wolf Dragoons- Elite Mercenaries outfitted with the best of Clan and InnerSphere technology, *AND* all of the smaller Merc units on Outreach looking for work who would have helped out in defence?
Damn, that is *LAME*!
What's next? Warrior House Ijori takes on the entire Sword of Light and wins? Clan Wolf destroyed by two Lances of the Eridani Light Horse? The Capellan Confederation winning a fight..errr...damn! They did that too!
Who writes this stuff? All they have to do to justify their BS is say "There were a bunch of WarShips. Because they nuked everything in sight until it glowed and then orbitally bombarded it in the dark, we have no way of knowing how many there were or who they belonged to. Incidentally, did we mention that the Draconis Combine was totally destroyed when Luthien's sun went supernova? No? Damn, I was sure I'd written that down somewhere...."
*Sigh*. They write so much fiction about the Ares Convention and how everyone sees nuclear and biological weapons as being beneath even a Capellan. And then what do we get? Black May and the Wobblies nuking everything in sight. I know that this is part of the new universe and game they are creating, but...damn! This is really pathetic.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Karagin
08/29/02 05:52 PM
63.173.170.74
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I am sure the offical answer would be:
YOU SHOULD HAVE PICKED BETTER FACTIONS TO PLAY.
But hey nothing we the fans say or point out how they are shooting themselves in the foot is going to change anything...they made up their minds about this lame storyline and seem to have forgotten a lot of the older material and we are forced to believe this since it's offical.
I have been saying all along how crazy this whole WoB thing is and how next to impossible it is and this only proves that idea to be correct.
All this does is two things, it forces those who are looking forward to MWDA into that game and shakes lose those of us who have had it with all the massive changes done to Battletech.
The scariest thing here is that do away with the Dragoon with full knowledge that up coming XBOX game has the Dragoons in it...nice to see them wiping out something that couch potatos will link to the game...
But hey they know what they are doing... 
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
08/29/02 05:52 PM
12.78.180.86
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>You are, you realize, ignoring one major point: manpower is fine...as long as the manpower is willing. Do you really think that, after ~6 years of freedom,
Terrans didn't give a wet fart about the WoB annexation. WoB left them alone so the Terrans didn't care.
>Terrans would willingly go back to being the slaves of religious wackos?
They never were. Comstar kept a largely hands off policy toward Terra. After deeply embarrassing the "Free Terra" movement in the 2800s (by framing them with a horrible attack against a civilian target, of course), Terra was run by the thoroughly secular Bureau of Terran Affairs.
>Let alone, would they be their soldiers, and die for said wackos?
Dude, on Terra? Place of a thousand different regional cultures, religions, and "ancient" cults?
The Wobblies need only a few tens of thousand frontline troops to compete with the Houses. In about 6 years of occupation, the Nazi's got 12000-15000 Dutch volunteers to fight the Soviets - collaborators, not forced recruits. Finding a few thousand people willing to blow $hit up for a cult like WoB in a few years out of 6 billion people ain't hard.
Then there's the FWL, CC, and all the other planets WoB has recruiting centers (HPGs) on.
Spice it up with nukes and you're good to go.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
08/29/02 05:56 PM
12.78.180.86
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>First, the Wobblies only had like two WarShips- a Vincent and an Essex, IIRC
For the Love of...For centuries, Comstar had no military, right?
Wrong. It had a secret army, warships, regiments of troops, etc. for centuries.
Guess what: you're basing your objections on incorrect information. WoB had a lot more warships than those 2. Those 2 were the ones people knew about, the ones FASA wanted you to think WOB had, just like it once wanted you to think Comstar was similarly without firepower.
Come on, people. FASA and its successors clearly set up WOB to be just as sneaky as Comstar was about mustering its forces in secret.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
08/29/02 05:59 PM
12.78.180.86
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>I have been saying all along how crazy this whole WoB thing is and how next to impossible it is and this only proves that idea to be correct.
And in 1986 the idea that Comstar could've put garrisons on most Federated Suns worlds would've been declared Bull$hit by most players, because the books clearly said Comstar had no military.
How much of your estimates are based off the "canon" reports of WoB strength? The two warships and the few divisions?
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Nightward
08/29/02 06:02 PM
132.234.251.211
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That can be argued both ways, my friend. You can say that the Wobblies had hidden forces like the ComGuard etc, and you may be right. However, I regard the "Oh, they had a hidden army" line to be a weak plot device WhizKidz is attempting to use to cover their massive restructuring of the BT universe and/or total screwing over of long-time players. But that's just me. I really don't like what they're doing, because personally I cannot see it happening in the BT universe.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Karagin
08/29/02 06:04 PM
63.173.170.74
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My estimates come from looking at the cost of each mech, the cost of muntions, the cost of each vehicle and the cost to train the crews and pilots for these. Then I looked at the cost of each warship, the cost to keep it in use and did the same for the fighters and dropships and jumpships and then the cost to train even green crews for these. Added to this is the cost to FEED and house these troops and all of this told me either WoB had found a way to turn lead into gold or that someone forgot how to add at FASA.
As for ComStar garrassion HPG stations...I do believe that each one already had a sercurity force of Adpets who were armed so in affect these could be called garraissoned...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Nightward
08/29/02 06:06 PM
132.234.251.211
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At least in the case of the Com Guard, they'd scattered a few hints around. Everyone knew that Earth was home to a huge number of 'Mech factories, and had a bunch of advanced technology. There were also the rumours of SLDF Regiments being mothballed there. At least the Com Guard did not wipe out any long-standing, famous units with nuclear weapons and plunge the universe into a civil war...
Again, I understand that this is part of the MW:DA plot line. But that does not mean that I have to like it.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Nightward
08/29/02 06:08 PM
132.234.251.211
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Sadly, apparently so 
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Karagin
08/29/02 06:10 PM
63.173.170.74
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Bullcrap from a crap out bull. The idea that WoB can hide everything it's doing from every single intell group is nuts!
And the idea that they can actually pay for this army and navy is just as crazy.
Plus their use of nukes is really pushing things, and again it's another wack at the older CANON material about how the use of said weapons were not used for the given reason in NUMEROUS sourcebooks.
WoB can be sneaky sure...but to be genocidial is really showing that someone didn't want anyone picking WoB as player faction...and the idea that they would go to such links has to make one wonder why...
They really don't gain anything and all this story arc does is piss the fans off and lead to a lot upset customers...
Now if WK/FP are smart they would take heed of this and drop this story line and come up with something better and more universe based and grounded as to be logical in the game. Since if this is what they expect us to believe, then why didn't old crazy Max and his daughter do this prior to the Clan invasion?
I am sure the reason against it then are just as good to be against it now...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
08/29/02 06:11 PM
12.78.180.86
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>However, I regard the "Oh, they had a hidden army" line to be a weak plot device WhizKidz is attempting to use to cover their massive restructuring of the BT universe and/or total screwing over of long-time players.
Let's recap FASA's weak plot devices:
1) Hanse Davion clone
2) Thomas Marik clone
3) The Combine's War of 3039 stunts
4) The Clans and all things Clan related
5) Joshua Marik clone
6) Word of Blake jihad
I know I missed quite a few of them. But almost all major BT universe changes were bad: the pure BS of the War of 3039, the cheesy Clans, and now WoB.
What's the issue with the jihad? It's par for the course.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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novakitty
08/29/02 06:13 PM
209.242.100.230
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Well if we know that earth is home to all these factories, why not let WoB use them?
Truly, there have been signs of WoB's rise at least as far back as the ComStar Sourcebook. The section of "monkey warfare" describes how transmissions that went through WoB HPGs had a tendency to change slightly from what was originally sent. An order of 50 medium lasers becomes 500 with one small edit. The ComStar voice in the book was complaining about how often they paid the difference to make both sides happy while WoB caused the trouble. Now, if the shipment was as large as the WoB made the order, and they had a front to buy the surplus at a low price, that would be an easy way to get more for their money. I suspect they could have done better than that to plan for their jihad.
meow
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Karagin
08/29/02 06:15 PM
63.173.170.74
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Of all of the events in the BT universe only one has seen the end of two factions. That event was the Amaris Coup. That wiped out the Terran Hegmony and the Rim Worlds Republic.
All of the other events changed the universe by adding in a new set of factions and adjusting borders...NONE of them wiped out whole planets and groups in a single blow.
So no the Jihad doesn't fit the normal pattern of chesse...this is a new kind one that isn't grounded in the BT universe and seems to be setup to remove older units to make room for new ones via MWDA...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
08/29/02 06:15 PM
12.78.180.86
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>The idea that WoB can hide everything it's doing from every single intell group is nuts!
Comstar did. This is no different.
>And the idea that they can actually pay for this army and navy is just as crazy.
They have the telecomm/HPG contracts for quite a few nations, a good chunk of cash coming from the FWL, AND THE TAX BASE OF TERRA and only need a few tens or hundreds of billion of C-bills.
Charge Terrans 170 C-bills a year in taxes - the wealthy, industrialized, Terrans - and WoB has 1 trillion C-bills a year. It's HPGs and telecommunication operations aren't losing money, either.
>Now if WK/FP are smart they would take heed of this and drop this story line
How, pray tell, do you know your views are representative of gamers at large? I don't mean just the small classic BT community, either.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
08/29/02 06:19 PM
12.78.180.86
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>NONE of them wiped out whole planets and groups in a single blow.
Succession Wars.
>So no the Jihad doesn't fit the normal pattern of chesse...
Actually, it's cooler than usual: BIG WAR. I haven't seen excitement like this since the 4th Succession War. So what if a few factions are gone? That happens in war.
It's too bad the internet wasn't around for the War of 3039 and Clan invasion. The flames would've dwarfed these complaints about the dark ages. What's especially sad is this exact sort of griping occurred over 3E D&D and died down very quickly once people started seeing the game.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
08/29/02 06:21 PM
63.173.170.74
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While that is a good possiblity, given that ComStar would have cautioned the companies about this problem the actually net results would have not been that high since each end, the custormer and the seller would come up with their own way to ensure what is actually being bought so for about six months or so, proablly less this might have neted WoB a lot of extra weapons, but not in the numbers they would need to arm everything they have and to have back ups to replace the items that don't work.
Funny things here is I am still seeing the same issues I raised coming up again and again and no answeres are being given to deal with them...all we see is that they (WoB) used nukes or have Terra and with that they should be the Holy Grail to give them everything they need line of reasoning...and yet the basic canon numbers and cost issues are not dealt with at all, yet we are suppose to believe they can do it because they are WoB...if that was the case then why is there still a CapCon or the FRR still around given that they both add to face more powerful foes?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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