Cray
08/29/02 06:21 PM
12.78.180.86
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>At least in the case of the Com Guard, they'd scattered a few hints around.
THEY SCATTERED SO MANY HINTS ABOUT THE WOB JIHAD IT ISN'T FUNNY!
How many missing warships and FWL budget embezzlement hints do you need? The sourcebooks are loaded with hints pointing toward the jihad.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Nightward
08/29/02 06:23 PM
132.234.251.211
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Well, actually this conflict has claimed a pretty big scalp: Luthien. It's no longer on the map. I just spent a half hour trying to find it on the INN site, and good luck to you if you can do it. So it seems that the WOB built themselves a Death Star and blew it into a million fragments. Or that WK can't find their behind with both hands and an atlas- also a plausible explanation 
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Karagin
08/29/02 06:24 PM
63.173.170.74
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Right they hold Terra and that gives them everything they need...funny...but the SL book stated clearly that the Sol system was running out of raw materials...but hey why worry about canon facts, just rewrite things if you don't like them...
Sorry but for the WoB to amass the forces they do and to have the means to move them around they need an army the size of the old SLDF or bigger...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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novakitty
08/29/02 06:26 PM
209.242.100.230
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"Plus their use of nukes is really pushing things, and again it's another wack at the older CANON material about how the use of said weapons were not used for the given reason in NUMEROUS sourcebooks."
The WoB did not attend the convention that declared nukes as illegal. Even if they did, they would not care, "the nuclear flames will burn away the evils of humanity" or some other one liner that is said over and over, and none of them complain one bit about the weapons.
meow
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Karagin
08/29/02 06:27 PM
63.173.170.74
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That is four wars fought over a time peroid of years...this Jihad does all of it's damage in one year and manages to take out planets that would have decent defeneces against attacks...
I heard the complaints against the Clans, mostly because of two things Pulse lasers and Targ Computers...and the other big things was their weapons range.
And a looking at the Clan War one sees that the rules the Clans fight by were used to the extreme to keep things balanced. I don't see anything here with this Jihad that is doing that.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
08/29/02 06:30 PM
63.173.170.74
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Using the idea that they didn't go to the Ares Convention is a great one, that makes the Clans extempt from it as well as the FRR and just about every Periphery power as well as the new SLDF...don't see any of them nuke their neighbors to death...
What a perfect loophole to use...falls right in there with mech factories appearing over night etc...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
08/29/02 06:31 PM
63.173.170.74
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Would a nuclear flash help them? 
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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novakitty
08/29/02 06:32 PM
209.242.100.230
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Until you see the acounting records for WoB, you will say that it is impossible. Maybe we can convince FanPro to release the "How WoB afforded the Jihad" sourcebook.
[ad]
In this new, action packed sourcebook, we get to see all the economic data about how the Jihad was afforded. Watch in horror as you see how ofter the WoB ripped-off companies and successor states alike by dishonest use of HPGs. Cringe at the sheer number of bad deals the Free Worlds League agreed to. And expect the surprise of a lifetime when you see how simple it all is.
[/ad]
meow
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NathanKell
08/29/02 06:34 PM
24.44.238.62
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So? That tax base is nothing compared to a House's. Why don't one or more houses do this?
I mean, heck, why should only WoB have the benefits of reality?
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Nightward
08/29/02 06:34 PM
132.234.251.211
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Aye. Even with the manufacturing cpabilities of Terra, the LC, DC, and the FRR at their hands, the Com Guard couldn't rebuild after Tukayyid. Why should the Wobblies be allowed to?
Oh. That's right. Because WK said the WoB is going to blow up the universe.
*Sigh*
Now, yes. FASA did some pretty extreme stuff- the Com Guard, the War of 3039, cutting the CapCon in half, the Clans- but all in all there were no major, universe-shattering events. Everyone survived. Sure, they might have been a little bit mauled and lost some worlds, but *THEY WERE STILL THERE*. The DCMS tried to destroy the Wolf Dragoons. They rebuilt, but were nuked to pieces. The DCMS, LAAF, and pretty much everyone else tried to destroy the Gray Death. They were rebuilt, but died at the hands of some stupid author. And on and on and on.
None of the old factions remain- Luthien is gone and the DC dust on the wind. The DCMS is gone completely, and I am supposed to accept than some wing-nut "Dragon's Fury" and "Spirit Cat" Factions have replaced them! And the Panther no longer has a PPC but ionstead ballistic weapons! What is with that? The entire old universe is gone.
I am not happy with this.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Karagin
08/29/02 06:36 PM
63.173.170.74
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The hints from the Periphery book could be read as a return of the RWR or just about anything else...like oh say the return of the Wolverines.
The other hints about the FWL helping the WoBs seemed to come to a rest with their retaking Terra and the imposter Marik turning down the Primus of the WoB...
The same hints of large mech units etc...could have been part of Sun Tzu little rebuild plan...
All of the hints don't all point towards the WoB...just as saying their holding Terra gives them enought power to take on the IS is a lame idea since if that is the case then why didn't ComStar do it since they held Terra for how long and at any point could have had the massive troop numbers, if you are going with the idea of having Terra gives you tons of men and material, that WoB has now and thus should have been able to take on the Great Houses...
Sorry but this Jihad is a very weak plot and seems to be more of a house cleaning event to make way for the tying in of MWDA.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
08/29/02 06:39 PM
63.173.170.74
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Even then I am sorry to say I would question the info, since given the cost of mechs and other items in this universe they overall cost would have WoB bankurpty and falling apart in an effort to pay for it all...but hey TPTB have decreed that they can do it so why should the fans question it?    
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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novakitty
08/29/02 06:40 PM
209.242.100.230
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The Clans have their own code of honor that prohibits nukes, and the periphery nations would be eradicated if they nuked a house planet or ship. The new SLDF is held to the same standards as the houses that support it.
meow
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Karagin
08/29/02 06:41 PM
63.173.170.74
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I am sure the folks around the areas that the WOBBIES used Chemical weapons would beg to differ with you on that, oh wait they can't they are dead...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
08/29/02 06:43 PM
63.173.170.74
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Ok...then why didn't ComStar use NBC weapons and take over the IS?
Why can only the WoB do this and it's okay? Why haven't one of the other powers done it? And please don't quote the Ares Convention, given that FASA/WK/FP is throwing it out the window...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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novakitty
08/29/02 06:49 PM
209.242.100.230
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Because the others want to rule the IS as it is (or was in the Clan case), WoB wants to reshape the IS into something of their own.
meow
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Karagin
08/29/02 08:36 PM
63.173.170.109
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For the other powers to take the IS would be to reshape it into something they can control, and the same could be said of ComStar's motives up until of say right after Foch shot Waterly.
So again I ask why hadn't ComStar used the same apporach we are forced to believe that WoB is now using to take control of even the worlds around Terra?
If it such an excellent way to hurt the other powers and leave them so devasted that you can take the worlds with ease and all then why hasn't ComStar done it?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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masdog5
08/29/02 08:43 PM
66.72.236.153
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IIRC, it was Myndo Waterly, former primus of Comstar, that began actively pursuing the destruction of hte inner sphere so that comstar could rebuild it. Operation Scorpion failed...miserably in some cases.
Until Waterly, I believe that Comstar and its WOB splinter faction never intended to beat the inner sphere into submission. It just happened that the Helm core reversed the technological slide of teh succession wars enough to prepare for the coming of the clans.
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masdog5
08/29/02 08:46 PM
66.72.236.153
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Because, IIRC, up until Waterly, Blake's mission for comstar was to preserve technology, not become a semi-religious organization bent on reshaping the inner sphere around his divinity.
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novakitty
08/29/02 08:53 PM
209.242.100.230
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Because WoB does not see what will follow. It will not take centuries for the Sucessor states to rocever to the point that they could waste WoB if they agreed. In the timeline, this becomes unneccessary because an uprising in the controlled worlds wastes WoB. The WoB fanatacism has caused them to underestimate the difficulty of subjugating the Inner Sphere. ComStar had been planning to use (and encourage) the fighting between the Successor States to weaken the opposition until they knew they could win. When the Clans arrived, they attempted to shift their plans to include these new forces as well.
The methods WoB use are effective, but not enough to fully dominate the Inner Sphere. The other forces typically have a more realistic understanding of what it would take (since the destruction of the Jags at least). Despite the huge losses, the jihad was a failure, it did not reach as far as WoB wanted, and their destruction by dissenters was possible because they wore themselves thin.
Remember, the Dark Age does not encompass all of the Inner Sphere, but it shifts the focus from the politics and wars of grand empires to the conflicts on a few worlds (rarely if ever including more than one world in any given conflict).
meow
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novakitty
08/29/02 08:53 PM
209.242.100.230
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That too.
meow
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Karagin
08/29/02 08:58 PM
63.173.170.109
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Are we playing the same game?
Funny but everything they seemed to be doing like piting the Houses against each other, attacks on NAIS, etc...don't seem to be much on preservation more like devasation.
May I suggest you pick up the ComStar SOURCEBOOK, not the FM, and give it a read...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
08/29/02 09:04 PM
63.173.170.109
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So ComStar holding Terra wasn't the end all of game and it didn't give them the Holy Grail to attack anyone in mass...thank you for agreeing to that.
And thank you for pointing out how foolish this so called Jihad is. The whole storyline is faulty...you proved it with your comments as have others...to bad that WK/FP and to some extent FASA didn't think it through to see these problems or if they did why didn't that tell them to find a better vehicle to be the push to the dark ages instead of repeating of the Amaris Coup, since the same worlds for the most part are effected again...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
08/29/02 09:08 PM
63.173.170.109
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Can I point you to the Wolf and the Spider graphic novel and the Comstar dealings there...and can I point you to the hints dropped in the Warrior Trilogy about the ComGuard as well as the attack on NAIS by ComStar?
A reading of the old House books and the ComStar sourcebook will show you that ComStar had an active role in setting the houses at each other's throats and were very ruthless in wiping out anyone's attempt to work on technology. Also the framing of the GDL over the Memory core etc...
But hey let's not let the canon game facts get in the way of this oh so perfect storyline of the Jihad...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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novakitty
08/29/02 09:10 PM
209.242.100.230
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The storyline is as good as any I have heard suggested as an alternative. Whether you like it is a matter of personal preference and nothing anyone says can force you to change that.
"instead of repeating of the Amaris Coup, since the same worlds for the most part are effected again... "
For some odd reason, everyone considers the world that humanity began on to be important. For that reason, it will always be the focus of things like this.
meow
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masdog5
08/29/02 09:18 PM
66.72.236.153
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I think the goal of the Jihad was to effect all of the nations simultaneously, and the only part of the map where all five nations have, or in the past had, common borders was in the chaos march. The timing of this couldnt be better either...with 3 nations hurt because of war (FS, LA, and DC).
I will agree that there are a number of poorly thought out plot points. The WOB, in my mind, is poorly thought out. One woman gets axed and a portion of Comstar creates a splinter faction? The prophesied return of the real Thomas Marik (not likely, unless someone at Comstar has been calling Miss Cleo) as the Primus for the WOB?
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Karagin
08/29/02 09:26 PM
63.173.170.109
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If they used Miss Celo, then they need a refund... 
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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masdog5
08/29/02 09:32 PM
66.72.236.153
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IIRC, wasnt the attack on the NAIS influenced by Waterly? Its been a while since I have read the warrior trilogy. My understanding of the situation between comstar and hte successor states was that Comstar, for the most part, took a hands off approach. The tri-party alliance between the DC, FWL, and CC was created to offset the formation of house Steiner-Davion.
As for the Helm Core, I havent read the GDL saga (cant find it in Library, wont buy it off of ebay because I have been [delelted] too many times by peopel on there). It makes sense htat they wouldnt want it seeing hte light of day, after all, I said there mission was to preserve technology...that doesnt mean they wanted people to recover it.
I have re-read what House Sourcebooks I could download off of the CBT site (see above comment about Ebay about why I dont buy them), and from my reading of them, it rarely mentions comstar at all.
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masdog5
08/29/02 09:36 PM
66.72.236.153
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Which map were you looking at, because the only map that mentioned specific planets on the INN site was the map for the republic of the sphere. There was a comparison map that showed it in relation to the other houses of the Inner Sphere.
BTW, where did they come up with the name of Dragons Fury for hte Combine? That sounds kinda cheesy for a powerful warrior nation...
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Karagin
08/29/02 09:43 PM
63.173.170.109
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I understand your problems with E-Bay...try the Gamer's Union instead they have a nicer auction setup and less chance of getting screwed over.
The best info on what ComStar has done to keep them on the top of the Tech food chain is in the ComStar sourcebook and in some of the novels.
For example a ComStar Agent played a role in the Marik Civil War and convinced Janos brother to try and split the Wolf's Dragoons up in hopes that they would be forced to make a supply run, then the above mentioned attack on NAIS, along with the attack on the derlict Black Lion out near the Taurians etc...the list goes on and on...they have had a hands on apporach in the killing of scienctists who are on the verge of making breakthroughs on tech and that is talked about in detail in the CS SB.
So doing anything to stay on top means that they too could have launched the same kind of attack that WoB is doing now...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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