Toastrider
11/27/02 12:35 AM
172.145.155.245
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Let's talk about a few things.
Folks, just because something is 'official' does not make it 'good'. If any of you ever read Marvel comics, you're probably catching on quick. The editorial and writing absurdities present in Marvel would have made angels weep.
Which is why MWDA bothers me so much. It's not the overall setting per se -- it's the contrived feeling of the plotline. People have made numerous arguments as to the holes in the Jihad. A HUGE army rivalling that of the original SLDF, an equally large navy, an arsenal of NBC weapons -- all manufactured in a bare handful of years?
And the attacks seemed to be practically simultaneous. Have you looked at the WizKids MWDA-Comstar site? Numerous worlds just in the Republic of the Sphere alone have been hit with nuclear or biological weaponry. After the first few got hit, you know damn well people would be forting up and going Wobblie hunting. And not just the IS units, either; I imagine Clan Nova Cat, Clan Ghost Bear, hell, even Clan Jade Falcon might jump in on the chance to scour such vermin from the universe.
Lance, Cray, I don't know why it's so important to you to try and defend the honor of this plotline; do either of you have money tied up in Wizkids or something? Let it stand or fall in the market, as it should. Let that be its 'Trial of Position', if you'll pardon the Clannerism  Enough with the snide remarks and the flames, and that goes for both sides of this debate. We're all supposed to be FRIENDS here, QUIAFF?
I just wish FASA and Wizkids had come up with a more elegant way to knock BT back to a 3025-era of tech. The Jihad as it is now is a clumsy kludge.
But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.
--Toasty
"The survivors, not the victors, write the history books."
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TenakaFurey
12/02/02 06:40 PM
195.92.168.174
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Let's talk about a few things.
Folks, just because something is 'official' does not make it 'good'. If any of you ever read Marvel comics, you're probably catching on quick. The editorial and writing absurdities present in Marvel would have made angels weep.
- Hmmm…do I detect a Clone Saga Critic here?
Which is why MWDA bothers me so much. It's not the overall setting per se -- it's the contrived feeling of the plotline. People have made numerous arguments as to the holes in the Jihad. A HUGE army rivalling that of the original SLDF, an equally large navy, an arsenal of NBC weapons -- all manufactured in a bare handful of years?
-Not quite. First, the actual size of the WoB at the time of Jihad is unknown. But they don’t rival the size of the SLDF. Nor do they have a large navy. Their size is likely larger than that mentioned in the FM, but the premise behind this *is* acceptable and fairly believable. They have revenue, manpower and have expanded Terras military industries. They’ve also had fifteen years with which to do this.
Also, they have allies and have hired mercs. Add in the element of surprise, a severely weakened IS that has become increasingly hostile to each other and some smart opening moves and they really don’t need that large an army.
And the attacks seemed to be practically simultaneous. Have you looked at the WizKids MWDA-Comstar site? Numerous worlds just in the Republic of the Sphere alone have been hit with nuclear or biological weaponry. After the first few got hit, you know damn well people would be forting up and going Wobblie hunting. And not just the IS units, either; I imagine Clan Nova Cat, Clan Ghost Bear, hell, even Clan Jade Falcon might jump in on the chance to scour such vermin from the universe.
-The IS has however been weakened. And no Clan unit would engage the IS. For one – it is, by definition, an internal affair. Thus the Warden cause is not triggered. Secondly, it is not the Clans fight – so they are bound by honor not to interfere.
I just wish FASA and Wizkids had come up with a more elegant way to knock BT back to a 3025-era of tech. The Jihad as it is now is a clumsy kludge.
-Of course, we have yet to see how it plays out. But it seems a perfectly reasonable storyline – more so than some others.
EJL
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Karagin
12/02/02 08:00 PM
68.21.149.248
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In reply to:
TenakaFurey wrote:
-Of course, we have yet to see how it plays out. But it seems a perfectly reasonable storyline – more so than some others.
EJL
Really? Using nukes is reasonable? Using BioChem weapons is reasonable? Sorry but those are NOT the signs of the writers coming up with ORIGINAL ideas.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Warner_Doles
12/03/02 09:50 AM
206.27.40.58
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Really?
Yes
Using nukes is reasonable?
Sure. If the force using them believes they can win by employing them. Yes it is. Had the Russian felt they'd win in using nukes against us, they'd used them. The Blakist know the repulsion these weapons create. Leaders cringe at the though of them being used. They are a terror weapon and they do achieve the desired effect when employed. So yes in this setting they are reasonable for who is using them.
Using BioChem weapons is reasonable?
Yep. Just like I stated above.
Sorry but those are NOT the signs of the writers coming up with ORIGINAL ideas.
No, no they are not. They are ideas that have been used in the hundred of millions of stories told. It is an idea that fits the setting of the BattleTech Universe. I will point out to you that in the 1st and 2nd Succession Wars Nuclear, Biological and Chemcial Weapons were used. They were also used by the Vaunted Star League Army during the Reunification War and during the Armaris War. Even the Periphery used them and destroyed nearly 50 plus divisions. You and a few othes my not like the idea or the story line, but that doesn't make it wrong either. If it does, then I expect you to speak out against all the other stories where the same weapons have been used time and time again outside of BattleTech. Besides, its only fair now isn't it? And you are a fair person right? 
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TenakaFurey
12/03/02 08:49 PM
195.92.194.15
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Really? Using nukes is reasonable? Using BioChem weapons is reasonable? Sorry but those are NOT the signs of the writers coming up with ORIGINAL ideas.
-What is the problem with nukes?
Its a plot device. Nothing more. Other stories have used them. And their use is widespread in BTs history. They were even used during the Civil War.
The WoB using them makes sense. They have a number of advantges....they've been preparing for a while, they get first strike, they get surprise, they have more forces (even excluding allies) than just about anybody thinks they do and they are facing a weakened IS.
That doesn't mean they can achieve victory and so they need something to cut down the odds.....nukes are a cheap way to do this. Indeed, the opening strike on Outreach is a *smart* move on the Blakists part. They get rid of a large thorn in their flank and take down a good portion of theirallies as well. And, if that trend continues, we can expect simultaneous - or nearly so - strikes elsewhere.
Is the plotline itself reasonable? More difficult to answer. We don't know enough. But the action itself is not unprecedented and the WoBs have made enough preparatiosn to allow them to do this.
So, within the plotline...is the use of nukes reasonable? Yes...the WoBs need and have a force multiplier. They are fanatical enough, in many cases, to use them as well. And, as the Civil War shows, mere necessity can be enough to force the use of nukes. In a case of "us or them", "them" always loses.
Within the game, the use of nukes is less reasonable....the rules for their use would need to be structured and the weaposn restricted to avoid the "press a button to win" scenario. But the novels aren't the game.
EJL
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Karagin
12/04/02 07:57 AM
68.21.149.146
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First it's NOT original, second it brings up all kind of things like the whole point of Keiths leaving since NONE of the writers and staff wanted to Nuke the Jags, but it's now okay for the WoB to nuke a dozen or more planets in the Inner Sphere.
And finially, why use weapons that have MASSIVE side effects and then expect us to believe that none of these effects really have any effect on the people or the planets themselves, since we already know that Stone is able to rebuild in less time then it takes for the radaition and such to fully go away.
So it's a weak plot line and one that really shows that who ever thought it up, was either in a rush to come up with something or didn't expect us the fans to care that much.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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TenakaFurey
12/04/02 01:22 PM
195.92.168.173
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First it's NOT original, second it brings up all kind of things like the whole point of Keiths leaving since NONE of the writers and staff wanted to Nuke the Jags, but it's now okay for the WoB to nuke a dozen or more planets in the Inner Sphere.
-No, its not original. Its not the first time nukes have been used as a plot device, and it won’t be the last. Nukes are apart of the BT universe. Thus, they are sued – occasionally.
This ties in with your second point. There are good reasons why the Jags weren’t nuked. They would, in large part have been nuking their own territory for example.
But, more to the point, they didn’t need to. Playing their cards right, the DC could have handled the Jags on their own. Adding in the four other Great Houses was just overkill on a massive scale. Add in the good guy factor, and the real distaste many have for nukes in the BT universe and their aversion during the Jag onslaught is understandable. More so since use of such weapons against a Clan could have dragged in the rest of the Clans, and severely reduced the IS superiority.
The Blakists, however, need to use them to level the playing field and have none of the baggage associated with their use.
And finally, why use weapons that have MASSIVE side effects and then expect us to believe that none of these effects really have any effect on the people or the planets themselves, since we already know that Stone is able to rebuild in less time then it takes for the radiation and such to fully go away.
-Yes, its true. Nukes and other such weapons have side effects. However, what does this matter? The worlds have been affected. Outreach, for example, is still a radioactive cinder. But radiation lessens, and people can get by. They have rebuilt. Just look at Nagasaki and Hiroshiuma today.
So it's a weak plot line and one that really shows that who ever thought it up, was either in a rush to come up with something or didn't expect us the fans to care that much.
-Actually, I don’t see much wrong with it. The WoB tries a take over – something signposted a long time ago, and get slapped down. They do this against severely weakened Houses who have become increasingly belligerent towards each other. They use nukes and other weapons to level the playing field and have a number of other advantages.
To me, its far better plotted than the death of the Jags or the Civil War.
EJL
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Karagin
12/04/02 01:55 PM
68.21.149.83
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The whole idea of massive nuke/biochem attacks reads like a cheap 50s scifi story or a one of Clancy's novels, that is if he is actually writing it and not just signing off on it as he has been of late, the whole plotline is weak in that one side get's to use the weapons and NO ONE is the brighter before hand, seeing how in those novels the bad guys like the WOB in their Jihad plotline, manage to get everything past every agency know to man and BOOM we have the whole polt spelled out.
The whole attack by WoB on the major IS powers could have been done differently and better, and so far I am not impressed with this tried and over used plot line.
Yes nukes are a part of the BT history, but that's the key word HISTORY, seeing how that is were they have remained for how long...oh since the Second Succession war...should have been a big hint to WK and company that bringing them back would not be a good idea, given that we still see in the CANON books and such that effects and their use of said weapons are still felt in the 3060s.
So on that note, they can have their BS about and weak plot line, I will not be supporting MWDA so it won't matter, as far as things go for me, BT died, when WK put out MWDA.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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TenakaFurey
12/04/02 07:55 PM
195.92.168.173
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The whole idea of massive nuke/biochem attacks reads like a cheap 50s scifi story or a one of Clancy's novels, that is if he is actually writing it and not just signing off on it as he has been of late, the whole plotline is weak in that one side get's to use the weapons and NO ONE is the brighter before hand, seeing how in those novels the bad guys like the WOB in their Jihad plotline, manage to get everything past every agency know to man and BOOM we have the whole plot spelled out.
- Well, as I said…the plot has been used before. It will be used again. As a plot device, however, that does not mean it is doomed. Look at stories such as Planet of the Apes, the Omega Man and Terminator. And that’s all the nukes are. A plot device. Not the reason for the story. Just a backdrop for the conflict.
As for getting past every known agencies….this does happen. They make mistakes. Especially in areas where they aren’t looking for them. The WOB, in this case, have been quiet since they were formed and have acted only against one faction – ComStar. In this, they have proven more trustworthy than ComStar itself. People may not like their perceived “fanaticism” but they haven’t done anything to really make the Great Houses consider them a threat. Or, at least, proven to.
Add in the fact that most intel agencies have better and more important things to do with their resources – the clans, the FedCom Civil War and the increasing hostility between neighbors – and the fact that the WOB controls ROM – one of the best intel agencies in the IS – and it becomes very plausible that their preparations were missed – especially if they were smart and compartmentalized their plans. And form what we know, they did do things the smart way. At least, at first.
Plus, we don’t actually know that they were missed. Like so much else, the data could have been misinterpreted, put aside for later analysis, been judged of low reliability or simply overlooked. This happens – even in real life.
The whole attack by WoB on the major IS powers could have been done differently and better, and so far I am not impressed with this tried and over used plot line.
Yes nukes are a part of the BT history, but that's the key word HISTORY, seeing how that is were they have remained for how long...oh since the Second Succession war...should have been a big hint to WK and company that bringing them back would not be a good idea, given that we still see in the CANON books and such that effects and their use of said weapons are still felt in the 3060s.
- Why does that mean the WoB can’t use them? They’ve been used since the Second Succession War. On Gibson. During the FCCW. And there are references in various SBs and SPs about their use. Liao used nerve gas in the Capellan Solution. The WoB is unique only in their scale. Not their timing, nor the fact that they actually used these weapons.
Could the attack have been done differently? Yes, it could have.
But how? What else could the WoB do to actually help ensure victory. Despite their armaments program, its unlikely they could have built up enough to take over the IS so a large scale attack – a la Clan invasion – would not work. Disinformation, redirection, etc would likely only get you so far before being uncovered. Whats left? Small scale attacks would only infuriate the Great Houses. Removing nukes and other WoMD leaves few, if any, viable options for the WoB.
So – how else could the WoB have attacked while still retaining a hope of victory? The use of nukes is one of the only viable options for victory they have.
As for WK doing this – the Jihad was planned by FASA. MWDA means it lasts longer, and is more vicious…but in most respects, it remains unchanged.
EJL
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realworldviews
12/06/02 12:07 AM
24.98.65.31
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Great response.
I personally don't really like where this storyline is going but the more that comes out the easier it is to take.
I can see where it came from and where it may be going.
I just hope that when WK/FanPro begin to release the stories and source materials for the Jihad that it is well written and makes sense.
I just finished reading the FedCom sourcebook from front to back and it was very well written. If the Jihad is written as well as it was I will be very happy.
Colonel Brian Davis
Gamers United
"Dreams become reality, for all who start off with a dream"
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