Rockdaddy
11/21/02 07:51 PM
206.102.33.41
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I think that's probably closer to the truth than we would like...and funny to boot!
All I need are some tasty waves, a cool buzz, and I'm fine.
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Cray
11/21/02 08:08 PM
12.91.117.156
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A poster asked in the "Ask the Writer Forum" in the thread "What was the Original Outcome of the Jihad":
In reply to:
I've been wondering about this one for a while, and I remember Bones mentioning elsewhere that the jihad and many of the events during it were planned out well before FASA went under, so my question is: What was original outcome planned for the jihad? Obviously, MW:DA must have substantially changed it, so I'm curious as to what the original direction was.
Chris Hartford (AT2's writer) replied:
In reply to:
MW:DA has changed some elements planned for the Jihad, but not all of them and as such we can't really reveal the original outcome (or many of the its elements) without giving away some of the as-yet unknown parts of the story
Another poster responded to the original question:
In reply to:
That would be nice to hear at some point in the future.
Plus it'll give a bunch of nuts a reason to argue again about how DA "messed everything up". That'll be a great flame war.
The best part would be the application to alternate-storyline campaigns run by players. An interesting look into what it coulda been
To which Chris Trossen replied:
In reply to:
The trick is twofold.
First, ya gotta wait 'till we're done telling the story of the Jihad.
Then you gotta find one of us at a con or something and feed us and get us free drinks all night.
(and not that crappy rail booze either)
*Then* you might just get the real info, from the horse's mouth, so to speak.
Chris "Bones" Trossen
I'll forward your question. Actually, I'll do it verbatim since it seems well phrased, with a few additions to separate it from Mr. Kiasu's question about the "original outcome," which is somewhat different.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
11/21/02 08:13 PM
12.91.117.156
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As for the hidden armies, those are fairly logical. WoB had enormous resources: Terra, which has the military industries of any Successor State up to c3050; Terra, which has 6 billion people at least somewhat innoculated in Comstar doctrine for over 2 centuries and thus a ready pool of soldiers; Terra, which has all the old Star League's knowledge; the Solar System, with its massive industrial and shipbuilding capacity; a significant cut of the federal income of the Free Worlds League and its hundred of billions of people; and ~15 years since the Schism to start mustering forces in the FWL.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Rockdaddy
11/21/02 08:32 PM
206.102.33.128
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ComStar couldn't rebuild after Tukkayyid with Terra, and the help of FRR, DC, and Fed Com, but WoB can, even when FWL was busy with rebuilding after retaking thier losses from the 4th Suc. War and a devastating campaign for Terra?
Seems more like writer fiat to me.
All I need are some tasty waves, a cool buzz, and I'm fine.
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Cray
11/21/02 08:37 PM
12.91.117.156
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In reply to:
ComStar couldn't rebuild after Tukkayyid with Terra, and the help of FRR, DC, and Fed Com, but WoB can, even when FWL was busy with rebuilding after retaking thier losses from the 4th Suc. War and a devastating campaign for Terra?
Now that's a fascinating point I'm going to have to ponder a while.
Umm. WoB had a bigger tax base by skimming so much off the FWL, and Comstar was too nice to do that?
Well. I'm going to have to think about this. Within logic, it's BS that Comstar didn't rebuild with those resources. Within canon, it's BS that WoB did. Pondering, pondering.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Warner_Doles
11/21/02 10:04 PM
206.27.48.9
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Whether he is a paid employee or not is irrelevent. he is an agent of the company, and the most visable representative at that.
Correct. I am and that means I am accountable and I have a responsibility to ensure that others are taken care of on that message board. Now I went through the only 8 posts left of yours on the board (those that remained haven't been system purged yet) out of 67 posts you made. In those last 8 posts we did not once have any interaction. Your posts listed were from 3/21/02 to 4/20/02. Now if we interacted there is no record of it. Though its over 7 months ago and I don't remember you and I disagreeing. That doesn't mean we hadn't though.
Now if I hurt your feelings or caused you pain or problems in any way with a perceived slight on my part, then I humbly apologize. I don't remember having any type of discussion with you on this. The only one that I had with was incrible who has always been a thorn in my side from RGM. It happened as a results of my calling down Durango over something he said that I didn't like to a moderator. That has since been cleared up between Durango and I.
I'm not afraid to admit when I am wrong or have wrong someone, so I do apologize for any problem I may have caused you.
That being said, I will answer your questions here for you.
How much of the WOB Jihad, as it is unfolding (e.g. Nuking Outreach and other places, Wolf's Dragoons, assassinations, hidden armies and forces that they logically shouldn't have, etc...), is what FASA intended,
All of it. Every last hidden unit, nuclear weapon, stolen Warship, posion gas and filthy bullet the wobbies fired. This was set in stone at the end of 1999.
and how much of it is being dictated from above in order to fit in with the MWDA storyline?
Not allot really. Chris Hartford really answered this question the best. Its in this thread too. The plot line was modified to allow for some changes that would enhance the Jihad yes. But I am not allowed to go any further than that.
What has been changed and what did FASA want?
That depends on what you quantify as "changed." Was it changed? Yes. How much, well lets say its longer then it originally was. But the base premise of the Jihad is still the same.
The Dragoons were attacked, their fleet that was there was destroyed. Remus was destroyed by nuclear weapons? Yes. Were the Dragoons themselves nuked? No. Romulus was bombarded from orbit by naval weapons. But no nuclear weapons were used on the Dragoons themselves at any time. The full story on what happened on Outreach will be told and once you and everyone see it, then you'll truly understand how it happened. Believe or accept it? Well that's up to you all. I would hope that you all would!
Allot of the what happened is being released on WizKids' ComStar site in the interactive map. All 250 worlds will be listed and each one will tell their part of the Jihad story. Yet the full uncut version will be coming from us.
The story isn't going to be contrieved or "made to fit" MWDA. No we've already mapped out what is and isn't going to happen. When we get to tell that story you'll see exactly why and how the Wobbies destroyed Dragoons as a military force and what rolled after that.
Some may not like it and not accept it. Many will and then there will be those who will wait and see and go from there. I can say with assurance that FanPro's stable of writers are very keen on what we have to do and how we are going to do it.
I hope I was able to at least make a few things clearer for you.
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Karagin
11/21/02 10:42 PM
68.21.149.101
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Funny I point the same bloody thing and I got attacked...nice to see that some one else can point it out and it's interesting and needs to be looked...right okay...no doublestandards in this community...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
11/22/02 06:47 AM
64.83.29.242
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In reply to:
no doublestandards in this community...
[blunt honesty]Oh, there are. When your responses to debates are, "You're oppressing me!" and other martyred posturing, not to mention liberally decrying something in BT as stupid, you're not likely to get positive responses out of me.
Rockdaddy just did a fantastic job of putting up with my flaming (ahem: sorry for being a dick earlier, Rockdaddy) and made his point clearly and logically. Plus, I don't have the baggage with him that I have with you.
So, yeah, there's a double standard here.[/blunt honesty]
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (11/22/02 06:54 AM)
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Cray
11/22/02 06:49 AM
64.83.29.242
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Fascinating.
So much alternate history possibility in that answer.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
11/22/02 07:12 AM
68.21.149.155
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Funny thing was I used the game logic and CANON facts and I was STILL attacked...nice to see even when one tries to use the given facts and such from the game the ones WHO claim to be in the know go out of their way to flame or attack...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
11/22/02 07:58 AM
64.83.29.242
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In reply to:
Cray wrote:
No, no, I'm not asking for the outcome, like Mr. Kiasu did. My questions are:
How much of the WOB Jihad, as it is unfolding (e.g. Nuking Outreach and other places, Wolf's Dragoons, assassinations, hidden armies and forces, etc...), is what FASA intended, and how much of it (a percentage estimate is fine) is being rewritten in order to incorporate the MWDA game system?
In reply to:
MacAttack wrote in reply
"How much of the WOB Jihad, as it is unfolding (e.g. Nuking Outreach and other places, Wolf's Dragoons, assassinations, hidden armies and forces, etc...), is what FASA intended"
Lots
".. and how much of it (a percentage estimate is fine) is being rewritten in order to incorporate the MWDA game system?"
Not Lots
-MacAttack
In reply to:
Rumor wrote:
Actually, it depends on what you mean by 'rewritten.' Because the Jihad has never been written. Yes, we had a plan. And most of that plan is still in effect. But in some cases, teh very nature of hte Jihad changed in order to bring about a desired effect for MWDA. (and no, I won't go into that now. maybe if we ever get permission to write the Jihad.)
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (11/22/02 02:01 PM)
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realworldviews
11/22/02 11:00 PM
24.98.65.31
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Do you really think that the writers would really admit if the Jihad is playing out like FASA had it. If I was being paided by Wizkids I would only be saying what they wanted me to. If they are saying that it was FASA's idea then I would be saying that FASA had it planed out like this.
Colonel Brian Davis
Gamers United
"Dreams become reality, for all who start off with a dream"
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Cray
11/23/02 08:51 AM
12.92.115.141
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In reply to:
Do you really think that the writers would really admit if the Jihad is playing out like FASA had it.
Several of them did admit it.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Warner_Doles
11/23/02 01:19 PM
206.27.48.12
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Do you really think that the writers would really admit if the Jihad is playing out like FASA had it.
Yes we would and we have. We aren't under any "orders" not too.
If I was being paided by Wizkids I would only be saying what they wanted me to.
We're not under any orders. What is to gain by LYING about it? What do we gain to make it up and try to cover up something? People are smart enough to see through things like that. Besides, things like that have the tendancy to come back to you when you do such things. Besides we are writting under FanPro for Classic BattleTech, not WizKids. WizKids has final approval authority over product or other things that would demand their attention, yet they don't pay us. FanPro does.
If they are saying that it was FASA's idea then I would be saying that FASA had it planed out like this.
Yet they aren't. If you are assuming we're automatons here, you're mistaken.  Those of us involved are far from it, that's for sure!
The fact is, the Jihad was planned back in 1999 along with the future of the game and finalized before the year was out. And had some modificiation made to it (length of it as well as some other things) to tie MechWarrior Darkage's historical background into Classic BattleTech's future.
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Rockdaddy
11/23/02 01:40 PM
206.102.34.89
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I really had hoped that this was being forced on FanPro by WizKids, but it doesn't suprise me that this retarded storyline came out of FASA.
It just defies logic, the whole thing. Well I guess it's just one more legacy of the Nystul Reign of Terror. Thanks Bryan, I appreciate it. If I buy the Jihad materials, I can always use them as toilet paper and put them to proper use.
Just when I think the people who are and were in charge of the game, and writing it, couldn't make another stupid storyline decision, they prove me wrong. And they wonder why so many people just throw their hands up in disbelief and leave the game.
All I need are some tasty waves, a cool buzz, and I'm fine.
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Cray
11/23/02 02:02 PM
12.92.115.141
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Indeed. FASA came up with Kurita's "Hail Mary" play to halt the Davionista juggernaut in 3039. I find the Jihad more credible than the War of 3039 and Clans, honestly.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Rockdaddy
11/23/02 02:16 PM
206.102.34.89
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Oh I agree on the War of 3039 being unbelievable. A hidden ComStar army that appears out of thin air. ComStar just giving Kurita all that technology. It was clearly just a way for FASA to reverse the 4th Succession War. And then there are the Clans, technobarbarians made from the greatest army every. Right.... And now the Jihad.
It never fails me how many stupid decisions and storylines can come out of such a small group of "writers". One would think after one instance of them making a decision that drives people insane after another they would try to not do it, but noooooo...I mean do these people have anyone that tells them their ideas need work, and who are listened too, or are they just surrounded by bootlickers trying to get the nod to come abourd as a writer and anyone who is a naysayer is automatically branded a troublemaker and ignored?
The worst part about all this is if I vote with my pocketbook I get told I'm disloyal and not supporting the game, which will fold. But how can I keep giving them my money when they keep producing crap? So much for giving the customer what he wants I guess. They'll just make junk and say we have to buy it or we aren't supportive. So where is their incentive to write something good for a change?
It just boggles the mind.
All I need are some tasty waves, a cool buzz, and I'm fine.
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Cray
11/23/02 02:50 PM
12.92.115.141
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Comstar's hidden army made sense: all the SLDF reserves on Terra.
It was how Kurita defeated the Davionista juggernaut with shoestring commando raids and a couple of new weapons tha bothered me.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Rockdaddy
11/23/02 03:19 PM
206.102.33.118
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It isn't the SLDF stores that I have a problem with, it's that they suddenly have an army nobody in the Inner Sphere ever found. Just one day Hanse Davion wakes up and ComStar fields the largest army.
I remember reading the Star League book and found all these units listed as missing (e.g. 13th Royal BattleMech Division). Nobody has a clue what happened to them And lo and behold when ComStar gets their sourcebook those units were the basis of the ComGuards...and yet the Star League book was an internal ComStar report. So either one hand doesn't know what the other is doing (highly unlikely given the nature of the report and how ComStar is organized) or ComStar needed an army and the writers just pulled one out of thin air.
Then we have how ComStar can't rebuild after their losses at Tukayyid and the defects after Op. Scorpion, even with Terra, and the help of the FRR, DC, and FedCom, and all the money from running the HPG network, but WoB can, even though Terra is devestated by the WoB invasion, FWL is rebuilding after Op. Guerrro, kicking out the mercs so their army has just that much more to do, mounting an offensive against the Clans. That alone defies logic, but then throw in the skimming of something like 10% of the GNP (and nobody notices that???) and WoB still has the resources to simply pull an army and a navy out of thin air?
It isn't plot twists that I mind, it's plot twists that smack of writer fiat and then we're expected to just close our eyes, nod, and say "yes, it makes perfect sense."
I have no faith at all in the writer's abilities to make anything close to a logical universe anymore. What's next? They need Thomas Marik out of the way, so they make him sneeze and his head explodes?
All I need are some tasty waves, a cool buzz, and I'm fine.
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Lance_Hawkins
11/23/02 04:33 PM
80.203.33.226
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In reply to:
It isn't plot twists that I mind, it's plot twists that smack of writer fiat and then we're expected to just close our eyes, nod, and say "yes, it makes perfect sense."
And you make this comment in regards to a game with giant walking robots who can't hit the side of a barn if the fell on top of them, where you can jump between the stars, but firing a weapon further than 600 meters is neigh impossible.
*smirks*
I have seen the best of men go past, I do not want to be the last.
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Cray
11/23/02 05:12 PM
12.91.125.177
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In reply to:
And you make this comment in regards to a game with giant walking robots who can't hit the side of a barn if the fell on top of them, where you can jump between the stars, but firing a weapon further than 600 meters is neigh impossible.
I make comments like that all the time despite the illogical nature of the setting. Heck, I make them about the illogical nature of the setting.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Rotwang
11/23/02 07:05 PM
213.224.83.134
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What bothers me most is the idea that so many events do happen in the BT universe. If this were happening in real life we would be right in the middle of World War VII and the seven major hereditary leaders of the world would be Emperor Giacomo Pedro of The South American Empire, Kyle Washington, President of the United States, Ivana Stalin, Chairman of the USSR, King Louis XXX of France, Emperor Akihito of Japan, King Charles II of the Commonwealth of Great Britain and Tracy-Lee Hapsburg of the Austrian-Hungarian-German-Scandinavian empire and Microsoft would control all earth communications ...
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TenakaFurey
11/24/02 10:01 AM
195.92.168.174
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You are right.
Its not conicidence that the Jihad ties in perfectly with the Dark Age.
However, much of it was planned, and if you know what to look for you can see the signs of it appearing a long time ago. And the lenghty development cycle for the storyline is what has allowed FanPro and Wizkids the opportunity to modify the Jihad so it can tie into the Dark Age.
What was changed?
Simply put, what the developers told us throught heir forum on CBT (you really should read it, even if you won't post there) is that the Jihad lasts a bit loinger and is more vicious than planned - the better to allow the setting up of the Republic of the Sphere.
EJL
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TenakaFurey
11/24/02 10:20 AM
195.92.168.173
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CoMStar couldn't rebuild to the same extent as WoB.
It is after all far larger.
Plus, it had no active Mech factories in 3052.
And it was being continually weakened by defections and sabotage, and had lost a good proportion of its funding.
WoB, in comparison, has had it far easier for a number of reasons.
So, yes...WoB can rebuild quicker and easier than ComStar.
As for the Terra campaign....not all WoB units were involved in that. And the ComStar troops took more casualties.
EJL
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TenakaFurey
11/24/02 10:42 AM
195.92.168.173
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The Star League is publically called a political sham and broken up?
-It was a political sham. It was fromt he start and anybopdy who expected it to last was dleuding themselves. It was et up with one purpose - to provide an anti-Clan platform...period. The "removal" of the Clan threat thus left it without any purpose. And with the power of the First Lords beign continually abused, and it being unable/unwilling to act in the Capellan Crsis to save a memebr state, intervene in the Civil War, the Draconis Incursion, the Jade Falcon conflict or the Bear-Combine war it was only a matter of time before it broke up.
The Fed Com Civil War ends with the FC broken up and Victor, rightful heir just simply walks away from the throne and instead of reuiniting the state, it is let in the hands of a pilitically naiive girl and someone who has spent time in a looney bin and nobody seems troubled.
-Yes. I am. Peter should have gotten the FedSuns.
Seriously - Victor could never reunite the FedCom, nor would he seriously be able to retake power. He had made too many enemies in both states. Indeed, his actions were a large factor in the causes of the Civil War in the first place. For example, what Yvonne did to Katie, using her right to exile her, he should have done the moment he found out Katie was responsible for Melissas death. Instead, he *gave* Katie the LyrCom.
The Capellans gain factories out of nowhere and are able to go on the offensive when just a few vears before they could barely field an army.
-The CapCon has been rebuilding for thirty odd years. It has been supported by the Marik for about ten of those. And they are able to go on the offensive only because they used Mariks offensive as a shield, and later allied with the TC and MoC to gain troops and never bit off more than they could chew.
WoB skims around 10% of the GNP from the Free Worlds League and nobody notices.
-10% of the GNP? You sure about that? In any case - it was noticed. Marik allowed it. There is a difference.
Hidden armies that shouldn't be possible to create just show up, major players are wiped out in an instant...I mean the list goes on.
-Both 'hidden' armies - the WoB and ComStar are fully plausible given what we know. As was the death/absorption of the St. Ives Compact. The death of the Jaguars was more forced, yes.
EJL
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Karagin
11/24/02 09:16 PM
68.21.149.111
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Putting aside the idea of the mechs and such, since it's clear ALL who play the game have some degree of belief or find something interesting in them to not worry that much about them...so that does leave the plot and the lack of thinking by a good chunk of the authors.
IF this wasn't the case then Kieths would still be writing about his GDL and some of the current events wouldn't be so hard to believe even with in the scope of the BT universe.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
11/24/02 09:18 PM
68.21.149.111
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Interesting...why couldn't Stackpole or Coleman answer this?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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TenakaFurey
11/24/02 10:05 PM
195.92.168.164
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Because the Dragoons have standards and are choosy about who they hire themsleves out to. Furthermore, they've never had a good relationship with ComStar.
Once the WoB decided to make their move, the Dragoons and Outreach became an obstacle that had to be removed. They couldn't be bought so they had to be destroyed as a fighting force. And, thanks to their deserved reputation, the options they had available to them were limited even further.
EJL
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Lance_Hawkins
11/25/02 07:51 AM
80.203.33.226
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"Rumor" is Loren Coleman.
Stackpole doesn't frequent the board.
I have seen the best of men go past, I do not want to be the last.
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Karagin
11/25/02 12:46 PM
68.21.149.233
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I see...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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