TenakaFurey
12/13/02 01:25 AM
195.92.168.172
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Warner, since you seem to be the voice of reason for the writers, let me reiterate my problems with the conceived storyline -- politely, of course.
-Politely is good…..
Frankly, in my mind, the logistics of the Jihad are a little kludgey. Keep in mind that once the nukes come out, the gloves come off -- thankfully, the FedCom civil war ended before anyone could detonate any more tactical devices (yes, I did read about Axton. I might also note that the person who did set off that nuclear weapon was In Deep Kimchee).
-And she still felt she was *right* in that she really had no other choice. Us or them….them lost.
So the problem is that in five years, Word of Blake has amassed enough military assets -- conventional, 'Mech, warships, and NBC weapons -- to trigger simultaneous strikes on numerous worlds. I say 'simultaneous' because once those NBCs come out and when word gets out about what's going on, people are going to notice and start to react. You can't do this piecemeal if you want the Jihad to go anywhere.
-Again, you really need to wait and see. There are ways to do this properly, even without the massive resources of a Great House. Add in the fact that the DC, FS and LA have their own problems, the FWL isn’t likely to be a threat and the CC is overstretched as it is…..
I have a real problem with the logistics of this. Yes, you've said that WoB has been skimming off the FWL's profits and they have the passive consent of Thomas Marik. But even WITH Terra, is that enough? The last time there was an attack of this magnitude on the Inner Sphere was the Clan Invasion, and the FC and Combine reeled like a man getting mugged in a field.
-Yes….and this time the DC has been damaged by the Bear-Combine War and the FS/LA have been gutted by a civil war. By now, those units that could be quickly rebuilt have been. They’re made up of the injured and volunteers coming back to duty. Rebuilding from now on will be much harder.
Keep in mind, it took Comstar centuries to assemble the ComGuards, and that was with a virtual monopoly over interstellar communications (thus ensuring a steady income).
-No. It took them about two months. Apart from some naval assets, ComStar built no military units during those two centuries – thought here were indeed arms factories on Terra, they exported. Since Tukayyid, ComStar opened a few factories. Since the WoB took over, they have opened yet more, expanded others, increased production and have even started ordering production from other factories in other realms. They also have the HPG revenue from House Marik and House Liao and the Chaos March and much of the Periphery, but have a smaller base on which to spend it.
I hope you see where I'm getting at. If the Jihad had been triggered fifty years down the road, with Thomas Marik being more and more sucked into the Word of Blake until the Free Worlds League was a theocracy, I could buy the attack and its results. But just five years?
-Not five. Fifteen. Terra was just Phase One. Even then, its been ten years since ten.
Another problem I've noted: Word of Blake needed troops to spare, not just to fight but to run their reeducation camps. I assume 'reeducation' is a euphemism for 'brainwashing'. Are there THAT many religious nutcases in the Free Worlds League?
-No. But you don’t have to be a religious nutcase to join the WoB. And recruitment into the WoB is at an all time high. From the Periphery. The Great Houses. The Chaos March. ComStar. Not to mention we don’t know how much of ComStar is actually the WoB.
They have money. The industrial capacity to produce the mechs. They have the manpower and the training facilities. They have a secure base of operations (Terra has been WoB for centuries). They have surprise, faith and a certain ruthlessness. Their targets are weaker than they have been for decades. And we know they start off by eliminating/disabling a major thorn in the area and a large source of independent units.
(Do not accept FM: Mercs to be correct for long;-))
What is so difficult to accept that the Wob can do this?
EJL
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Toastrider
12/13/02 01:48 AM
172.157.168.173
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In reply to:
-No. But you don’t have to be a religious nutcase to join the WoB. And recruitment into the WoB is at an all time high. From the Periphery. The Great Houses. The Chaos March. ComStar. Not to mention we don’t know how much of ComStar is actually the WoB.
According to what? This is part of the horse pill I'm having trouble swallowing. I'll admit to being not up on the Field Manuals, but I've read just about every BT novel printed and then some, with the exception of The Sword and the Dagger and those MechWarrior novels. There is very little, canonically, written about the Word of Blake that I've seen. Compared to the rise and fall of Katherine Steiner-Davion (which was mapped out over 10+ novels), this is just coming way out of left field for me.
From the novels, we've seen that Word of Blake has:
* Taken Terra. Granted, that was a good feather in their cap, and as a building point for their Jihad it's hard to top. But Terra is not the Inner Sphere.
* Assassinated Morgan Hasek-Davion. This is a 'presumed' because they never did state outright who did it. But the deductions developed by the allied commanders still hold water. However, the fact that WoB was able to slip an agent into Loki and THEN back into ComStar should have put everyone's back up.
* Screwed around on Astrokaszy and gotten the attention of Sun-Tzu Liao (Double-Blind). We all know what that got Demona Aziz, right? *bang*
I feel like I'm being asked to accept a deus ex machina here, kids, and I guess I'm too old to believe in it.
--Toasty
"The survivors, not the victors, write the history books."
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TenakaFurey
12/13/02 09:30 AM
195.92.194.12
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According to what? This is part of the horse pill I'm having trouble swallowing. I'll admit to being not up on the Field Manuals, but I've read just about every BT novel printed and then some, with the exception of The Sword and the Dagger and those MechWarrior novels. There is very little, canonically, written about the Word of Blake that I've seen. Compared to the rise and fall of Katherine Steiner-Davion (which was mapped out over 10+ novels), this is just coming way out of left field for me.
-Ahhh...I see your problem. The information about their recruitment is not gathere din one place, but is spread here and there. It can be found in variosus ources - from the ComStar SB, through Fall of Terra and Chaos March, right through to FM:CS and lately TR:3067.
For example...from TR3067...the Blue Flame....
"After capturing Terra, the Word of Blake reopened many Terran factories closed since the fall of the first Star League as part of their massive rebuildin effort."
"With complete control of the Sol system and high recruiting numbers in the Chao March,...."
Other sources tell us about the WoBs Periphery training grounds, recruitment in other areas and we know a good chunk of ComStar has already upped and left and that CoMStar is still riddled with WoB sympathisers. Even the head of the ComStar ROM was a WoBBie. And PP tells us that the WoB are even ordering stuff from the other realms - despite their industrial capacity on Terra.
From the novels, we've seen that Word of Blake has:
* Taken Terra. Granted, that was a good feather in their cap, and as a building point for their Jihad it's hard to top. But Terra is not the Inner Sphere.
-No. But it has been WoBs for ten years now. They've had the Titan Yards for six. They've taken its already impressive industrail caopacity and expanded it -reopening old factores, building new ones and expanding others.
* Assassinated Morgan Hasek-Davion. This is a 'presumed' because they never did state outright who did it. But the deductions developed by the allied commanders still hold water. However, the fact that WoB was able to slip an agent into Loki and THEN back into ComStar should have put everyone's back up.
-The thing is - all of that is mere supposition. And, given the peopel involved in working that out, is not a basis foir any intel operation.
I feel like I'm being asked to accept a deus ex machina here, kids, and I guess I'm too old to believe in it.
-Its not a deus ex machina. There is a solid basis (well, for BT) behind it.
EJL
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SuperCharger
12/13/02 09:37 PM
12.83.77.221
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Well, OK, yeah, it's just 1) Coleman made such a big deal about it in the book, and 2) in MWDA, Sun-Tzu's offspring is on the throne, so obviously Kai either never challenged him for the throne, or challenged him and failed. Maybe we should just consider this one more part of the WizKids storyline that's lame and should be changed.
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Toastrider
12/13/02 10:34 PM
172.164.192.77
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Tenaka: I don't think either of us is going to convince the other... so let's honorably 'agree to disagree'. I'd rather not turn it into a second Karagin vs Bob Richter slugfest :>
SuperCharger: The irony is that Sun-Tzu Liao was possibly the best Chancellor since the CC's formation. Now, admittedly, he pulled all manner of dirty tricks in part to strengthen his realm, but House Liao as of '67 has never been stronger or had better morale. Love him or hate him, Sun-Tzu has been -good- for the Capellans.
Which might be why his offspring is still on the throne in MWDA. Sure, Kai might have challenged him for the throne. But considering Sun-Tzu's popularity, I doubt Kai could've kept it; a revolution is more than just knocking off the guy on top, after all 
--Toasty
"The survivors, not the victors, write the history books."
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Bob_Richter
12/14/02 06:39 AM
4.35.174.250
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>>>At one point, this could also be said for the Warden movement.<<<
Not at all.
First, there was never any such thing as a Warden movement. Wardenism is the Status Quo that the Crusader Movement moved against.
Second, it took CENTURIES for the Crusader Movement to rise.
Third, the Warden Philosophy never took a blow as daunting as the Annihilation (by an outsider, no less) of the Clan that was its strongest proponent.
>>>You're assuming something I did not say.<<<
And you're ignoring the majority of my arguement. Now that we've got that covered....:)
>>>In fact, I gave no specific reason for it in that post,<<<
Oh, so you DID have a reason in mind for a Supermajority of the Grand Council to vote to Abjure one of the largest and most popular Clans? Do tell.
>>>which you would have realized if you didn't flame off about it. Instead, angered that someone would try to put forth an alternative to Wizkids storyline,<<<
*ROFLMAO* You may make money as a comedian yet...
>>>Newsflash for you, O Magnificent One. You can't silence me, and you're certainly not going to cause me to run away from this board. <<<
Newsflash for you, O Easily Offended One: I'm not trying to.
Character assassination is a poor excuse for an argument.
>>>Your pathetically unsubtle intimidation tactics may work with others, but I am not impressed. And I am not afraid. In other words, if you think you've got it, bring it.<<<
HAHAHAHHAHAHAHHA
You're a very funny man, or a quite insane one. Either way, most amusing to me.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
12/14/02 06:42 AM
4.35.174.250
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>>>Why not? You don't need nukes to wage all-out war. <<<
Yes you do, by definition.
Nukes are a great way to wipe away civilization, and a few armies that have you beat on simple conventional combat power.
>>>why invite more trouble by using nuclear weapons? <<<
How can you HAVE more trouble than having every man's hand set against you?
>>>Hell's Horses would not try a pull-out-all-the-stops war that was featured in Test of Vengeance, but I doubt they've forgotten or forgiven the Bears.<<<
Nor have we forgiven them. Still, the Horses are not so short-sighted as to want to try to weaken the Warden Cause they now strongly support.
>>>Bob, if you can't offer something substantial beyond 'this sucks, you don't know jack', why don't you just avoid this discussion?<<<
If you think that's what this is, it may be pointless to continue this discussion.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
12/14/02 06:45 AM
4.35.174.250
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>>>It's amazing how uptight you get over someone just having a little bit of fun with these boards, Bob.<<<
Rather, it's amazing how uptight YOU THINK I get...
heheh.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bloodrider
12/17/02 03:42 PM
64.12.96.167
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I acknowlege the validity of your statements. I apologize to everyone on this board for losing my head and my temper.
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room..." -from Dr. Strangelove
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Bob_Richter
12/17/02 04:20 PM
4.35.174.250
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No hard feelings?
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bloodrider
12/18/02 12:09 AM
152.163.189.136
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Nope, no hard feelings. Merry Christmas, Bob.
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room..." -from Dr. Strangelove
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Bob_Richter
12/18/02 10:20 AM
4.35.174.250
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You too.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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