Rotwang
12/09/02 06:31 PM
213.224.83.135
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This will probably cause Stackpole to go ballistic and start a rant about how he is a certified genius and gets paid astronomical amounts of money for putting things on paper and that we have no business trying to put words together with our stupid limited brains but what about a fan-written background for MWDA that feels a lot better and would end up setting the background for the future of the Battletech universe in more satisfying way than "WOB nukes every major player while everybody is looking the other way, rules the Inner Sphere for 15 seconds, dude comes up and kicks WOB ass and sets up a new Star League, but with another name and it works for 15 minutes ... Then everybody goes to war again."
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Bob_Richter
12/09/02 06:38 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>This will probably cause Stackpole to go ballistic and start a rant about how he is a certified genius and gets paid astronomical amounts of money for putting things on paper and that we have no business trying to put words together with our stupid limited brains<<<
Actually, it will undoubtedly do nothing of the sort. Mike's a very reasonable man, and you clearly didn't read his essays. If you did, you clearly didn't pay any attention.
>>>what about a fan-written background for MWDA<<<
What about it?
It will probably end up being worse than the official matierial and (worse) being noncompliant with new matierial.
No thanks.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
12/09/02 07:50 PM
68.21.149.25
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It would be nice to see something other then the WOB nuking everything...but then again that would something that has been said since we found out that they (WOB) are going to do this.
Sad part is that to TPTB what you describe IS a vaild and believe future for the game. Based on what I have been able to figure out it seems that to some the game has lost the nitty gritty feel of the 3025 era. While this is some what true, that is more the change in market stragtey then anything else.
I for one would love to see ANYTHING that takes the future of the game away from the Jihad storyline and the MWDA setting. There are tons of better ideas presented by fans daily on the internet that have more thought and effort behind them then the BS that is now offical and canon.
But I think you summed it up in your posting with the hint of Stackpole's idea that the fans don't know anything about the game and thus we should be happy and greatful, (what load of crap) that he is giving us his presious time by writing the novels and making BT for us...
  
1000 monkeys can write better then Stackpole, but that as some have is an attack on Stackpole...but when you attack the fans of game that you happen to be only writting in, really sets your self up for the attack, but hey insults are okay from TPTB when aimed at the fans but it's a crime and or worse if it's the other way around.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Toastrider
12/10/02 01:04 PM
172.131.15.100
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In reply to:
It will probably end up being worse than the official matierial and (worse) being noncompliant with new matierial.
The latter may be true, but the former?
I'll look first before I unload any judgements of that type. You KNOW my opinions of the BT to MWDA transition story. I haven't seen anything that awkward since I stopped reading Marvel comics.
--Toasty
"The survivors, not the victors, write the history books."
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Toastrider
12/10/02 01:16 PM
172.131.15.100
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Moving right along. Karagin, I disagree with your assessment about Stackpole's writing; I think he's probably the best writer in the lot. I'm also bemused about how you think he's a prima donna; this isn't the staff of EverQuest we're talking about here, is it?
That being said, though, I think I'd have swallowed the whole Jihad storyline a lot easier if it had occurred twenty or thirty years down the line, and not practically on the heels of the FedCom Civil War. Granted, it was a good time to strike; but even with five years of skimming the FWL, I can't see the WoB developing enough material to launch practically simultaneous strikes on most of the Inner Sphere.
To compare, ComStar's ComGuard was developed and built over a period of centuries. It wasn't -just- Terra that gave ComStar their edge, either; when you have a monopoly on interstellar communications, you NEVER hurt for cash.
The irony is that the heroes, theoretically, in the scenario developed by WizKids could have been the Capellan Confederation. The Capellans have never been stronger (retaking the St. Ives commonality and chunks of the Chaos March, as well as the alliance with the Magistracy and the Concordat), and I'm fairly certain that Sun-Tzu Liao knew that the Word of Blake was up to SOMETHING weird (ref: Double-Blind). And while he wouldn't mind watching most of the other Successor States collapse, I doubt he'd put up with the Jihad outright. If nothing else, he'd offer aid in return for concessions from the other nations.
Sun-Tzu Liao, savior of the Inner Sphere. Now there's something bizarre. 
--Toasty
"The survivors, not the victors, write the history books."
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Bloodrider
12/10/02 02:08 PM
152.163.189.136
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Keep the Jihad but eliminate the nukes (we all know the Wobbies have been up to something already anyway). Have the WoB initially concentrate on worlds in the Chaos March and the vicinity of Terra (which they're already doing, anyway). The Lyran Commonwealth and Federated Suns will be faced with a choice; either give up their worlds in the region to WoB or fight. For this scenario to work, both states decide to fight (or, alternatively, it could be forced upon both states by the actions of George Hasek-Davion and Robert Kelswa-Steiner in response to the WoB incursion). Either way, both fractured states of the FedCom should be against the WoB.
At this point, Comstar, the SLDF, and DCMS should also move to support the Lyrans and Fed Suns. Both the FWL and Cap Con will be sitting and watching, though. At this point, the WoB will appear to be vastly outnumbered and with no hope of winning. Now, we go to the Clan front.
Assume that there have been major shakeups in both the Clan OZs and the homeworlds. The Star Adders (who won their part of the Great Refusal) have, with the aid of the Cloud Cobras and Coyotes, more or less crushed the toumans of the Blood Spirits and Fire Mandrills. Although neither of those two Clans have been absorbed, they are no longer strong enough to really threaten any of the other Clans. The Hell's Horses have, once again, gone to war with the Ghost Bears, this time backed up by the Ice Hellions (they still have no hope of winning but will serve to keep the Ghost Bears busy for a while).
The Steel Vipers have, once again, switched their philosophical stance from Warden to Crusader, and have repudiated the position they took during the Great Refusal, and have recently won several worlds (I'd say no more than four or five) from the Jade Falcons on the border of the Jade Falcon OZ where it intersects with the Periphery. As a way of giving themselves a stronger defensive position, the Vipers are sharing at least one of those worlds with the Snow Ravens, in much the same way Vlad Ward granted worlds to the Hell's Horses. That gives us a look at the status of the Jade Falcon occupation zone.
Now, in the Wolf OZ, Vlad Ward has opted to once again form a tenuous alliance with Clan Coyote, granting the Coyotes several worlds in the OZ in return for the Coyotes garrisoning a number of Clan Wolf's worlds so Vlad can free up troops for a renewed invasion.
The Star Adders have retaken most of the worlds in the Periphery which were conquered by the Smoke Jaguars and Nova Cats, thereby placing them in position to enter the Inner Sphere along the same path, straight into the Combine. The Star Adders have facilitated the aid of the Cloud Cobras, Diamond Sharks, and Goliath Scorpions by promising the following: to the Cloud Cobras, several worlds in the IS; to the Diamond Sharks, several worlds in the IS and favored trading status; and to the Goliath Scorpions, several worlds in the IS from which they can carry out their hunts for Star League tech within the IS.
With Crusader fervor once again sweeping through the homeworlds, a new ilKhan will be elected to lead a renewed invasion. Although both Vlad Ward and Marthe Pride will be candidates, neither will be chosen due to the negative impact of the last ilKhans from both Clans (as it will appear in the Crusader viewpoint). Instead, the most likely new ilKhan will be Cassius N'Buta of the Star Adders, due to the strong position the Star Adders hold (third largest touman, defeated opposition in Great Refusal). Being from a Clan that prides itself on its pragmatism, Cassius N'Buta will initiate a renewed invasion when the attention of the IS is wholly focused on the WoB incursion.
Because of this, the DCMS and Comstar will be forced to recall all of their troops committed to fighting the WoB. The Lyran Commonwealth will be forced to fight both WoB and the Clans. The Star Adders will have little trouble taking worlds from the DCMS in the beginning, although resistance will stiffen as the DCMS and Nova Cats rotate troops up to face them. This will leave the WoB facing only part of the LCAF, the AFFS, and the SLDF (minus the Nova Cats), with possibly a few Comstar units in there somewhere.
Now things will really get intense because, sensing opportunity, the FWL invades the Lyran Commonwealth in support of the WoB. Also sensing opportunity, the Capellan Confederation, once more assisted by its Periphery allies the Magistracy and Concordat, strike into the Fed Suns' Capellan March. With the FWL busy in the LC, Caesar Sean O'Reilly of the Marian Hegemony begins trying to take several border worlds away form the FWL. And, with most of the governmental power structure either concentrating on fighting or beginning to collapse, resistance movements throughout the IS begin to flare up.
The Black Dragons try once again to assassinate Theodore Kurita, the Skye separatists once more agitate for independence, the Free Capella movement tries to overthrow Sun Tzu, and the Principality of Regulus tries to remove Thomas Marik (or drastically decentralize the power of the FWL government, which hasn't been very strong historically anyway).
The result: Sphere wide chaos and war, with the largest part of the Inner Sphere becoming one huge Chaos March.
Anyway, it's an idea. Some will probably note that I left the Outworlds Alliance out of this scenario. That's simply because I couldn't think of any way to bring them into it.
However, I don't agree with you about Stackpole, though. That's your opinion, mine's different. Cya
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room..." -from Dr. Strangelove
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Karagin
12/10/02 02:14 PM
68.21.149.69
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I find your ideas a lot more interesting and believeable then what WK/FP has given up us for the future...very nice write up.
As for the Outworlds they could ally with the Adders...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bloodrider
12/10/02 02:19 PM
152.163.189.136
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>As for the Outworlds they could ally with the Adders... <
Hmm. Might work, but that would probably be the hardest part of the scenario to justify, though. Thanks for the kind words...
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room..." -from Dr. Strangelove
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NathanKell
12/10/02 03:51 PM
67.86.58.8
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Ditto!
Except for the OWA. I mean, I just don't see democratic pacifists allying with any Clan.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Bloodrider
12/10/02 09:39 PM
205.188.209.77
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You're right, it is bizarre. But I do think that it might have worked
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room..." -from Dr. Strangelove
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Bloodrider
12/10/02 09:43 PM
205.188.209.77
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Another former Marvelite? And here I was beginning to think I was the only one Marvel's stories have grown pretty bad in the last few years, haven't they? The last comic I read that
I felt had a good story in it was way back in the early 90s; since then every one I've seen wasn't good for anything but toilet paper imo.
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room..." -from Dr. Strangelove
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Toastrider
12/11/02 12:04 AM
172.174.132.149
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I like it, Bloodrider. This is pretty well crafted and far more believeable. Overall I give it a thumbs-up, with some critiques:
In reply to:
The Steel Vipers have, once again, switched their philosophical stance from Warden to Crusader, and have repudiated the position they took during the Great Refusal, and have recently won several worlds (I'd say no more than four or five) from the Jade Falcons on the border of the Jade Falcon OZ where it intersects with the Periphery. As a way of giving themselves a stronger defensive position, the Vipers are sharing at least one of those worlds with the Snow Ravens, in much the same way Vlad Ward granted worlds to the Hell's Horses. That gives us a look at the status of the Jade Falcon occupation zone.
Questionable. The Falcons beat the everliving crap out of the Vipers and dislike them immensely (events depicted in Falcon Rising). I'd substitute another Crusader Clan for the Steel Vipers, myself.
In reply to:
The Black Dragons try once again to assassinate Theodore Kurita, the Skye separatists once more agitate for independence, the Free Capella movement tries to overthrow Sun Tzu, and the Principality of Regulus tries to remove Thomas Marik (or drastically decentralize the power of the FWL government, which hasn't been very strong historically anyway).
It would help immensely if the Black Dragon Society hadn't been overused before. Frankly, they never should have been used in Path Of Glory; they had just tried to assassinate the Coordinator in Black Dragon! This is not directed at you, but more at the BT fiction writers -- methinks they had a bad case of 'left hand not knowing what right hand is doing' there. Now, if you wanted to have Duke Hassid Ricol trying something, that'd be better.
Free Capella, to my knowledge, is no longer involved in trying to overthrow Sun-Tzu. They're more dedicated to protecting Capellans from the side effects of warfare (at least, that was the impression I got in The Killing Fields). Treyhang Liao doesn't exactly strike me as a revolutionary, especially as playing with that kind of fire is what got his father killed.
Cassandra Allard-Liao, though, might be nasty enough to try and jack around with Sun-Tzu.
Other than those thoughts, I like the concepts you've posted.
--Toasty
"The survivors, not the victors, write the history books."
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NathanKell
12/11/02 01:09 PM
67.86.58.8
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Um...I thought Ricol led the Black Drago Society.
Unless you mean him working through other means/groups.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Bloodrider
12/11/02 04:04 PM
205.188.209.77
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>Questionable. The Falcons beat the everliving crap out of the Vipers and dislike them immensely (events depicted in Falcon Rising). I'd substitute another Crusader Clan for the Steel Vipers, myself.<
That's one of the reasons I used the Vipers. Think about it this way: the whole point of the invasion is to be the first Clan to take Terra and become the ilClan. Now, being the pragmatic Khan he is, Cassius N'Buta would want some kind of a brake on the Falcons to give the Star Adders a chance of reaching Terra before the Falcons do, and he has to maintain at least the illusion of honor to do so, otherwise his chances of staying ilKhan are nil. The Vipers are really the only choice for this, for 2 reasons: 1) as you stated, the Vipers and Falcons loathe each other, and 2) the Vipers are one of the original 7 invading Clans. N'Buta's expectation is that the Vipers and Falcons, because of their strong antipathy, will delay one another in the new drive on Terra, giving the Star Adders the opportunity to catch up. Also, by having the Snow Ravens as their allies, the Vipers will be slightly tougher for the Falcons to chew on this time around. Note that N'Buta will not feel the same need to slow down the Wolves, due to the Wolf Clan's weakness and to the fact that Vlad will have to punch his way through Comstar's best troops to reach Terra.
Of course, only time will tell if N'Buta's grandiose plan will work.
>It would help immensely if the Black Dragon Society hadn't been overused before. Frankly, they never should have been used in Path Of Glory; they had just tried to assassinate the Coordinator in Black Dragon! This is not directed at you, but more at the BT fiction writers -- methinks they had a bad case of 'left hand not knowing what right hand is doing' there. Now, if you wanted to have Duke Hassid Ricol trying something, that'd be better.<
Hmm, since he's the leader of the Black Dragon Society, I'm not sure I understand your point. Do you mean do something personally, without going through subordinates and people he's manipulated? That might be doable.
>Free Capella, to my knowledge, is no longer involved in trying to overthrow Sun-Tzu. They're more dedicated to protecting Capellans from the side effects of warfare (at least, that was the impression I got in The Killing Fields). Treyhang Liao doesn't exactly strike me as a revolutionary, especially as playing with that kind of fire is what got his father killed.
Cassandra Allard-Liao, though, might be nasty enough to try and jack around with Sun-Tzu.<
Cassandra? Who said anything about Cassandra alone? I was thinking more along the lines of Kai and both his sisters
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room..." -from Dr. Strangelove
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Bloodrider
12/12/02 03:26 AM
205.188.209.77
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Here's a few more thoughts I've had.
1) Renewed Crusader fervor causes the Grand Council to once again consider invading the Inner Sphere. Cassius N'Buta plays Marthe Pryde and Vlad Ward off against each other in the fight for the ilKhanship by pretending to be neutral, while in reality he is making deals with many of the other Khans to gain their votes. (This doesn't quite mesh with what I posted earlier, but I think it could with a little more fermentation in my BTech-besotted brain )
2) A trial of Refusal is fought to defeat the motion for a new invasion. As the strongest remaining Warden Clan, the challenge is made and fought by the Ghost Bears. Unfortuneately, they lose and the invasion goes forward.
3) A motion is made by the Hell's Horses to have the Ghost Bears abjured. The motion passes. The Ghost Bear Dominion is declared part of a new invasion corridor which is given to the Hell's Horses and Ice Hellions. The offer of making this corridor accessable to the Blood Spirits and Fire Mandrills as well is proposed by the Snow Raven Khan, but the motion is defeated. (This, of course, will free up the Ghost Bears to hit any of the other Clans they can reach, because the Horses and Hellions simply aren't strong enough to take the Bears out. With this idea, the Bears could also strike into the Wolf OZ and even into the Falcon OZ, causing even more chaos and destruction. It will also be a source of division in the homeworlds, because the Spirits and Mandrills are not included. Expect a lot of raids by these two Clans on all the other Clans' possessions.)
Now, here are what could be some very interesting events. What do the rest of you think? Obviously, I'm making Cassius N'Buta out to be the big shaker in Clan politics this time around
(Vlad just doesn't have the clout to pull something like this off imo, and Marthe wouldn't work too well in this scenario as ilKhan, although she would probably work in a slightly modified one ). And the Bears will obviously play a major role as well. Opinions?
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room..." -from Dr. Strangelove
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SuperCharger
12/12/02 05:04 AM
12.83.76.201
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In reply to:
Cassandra Allard-Liao, though, might be nasty enough to try and jack around with Sun-Tzu.<
Cassandra? Who said anything about Cassandra alone? I was thinking more along the lines of Kai and both his sisters
Just to clarify here, Kai Allard-Liao's mother (and Maximilian Liao's oldest child, thus the true heir to the Celestial Throne) is Candace Liao. Kai's twin sisters are named Kuan Yin and Cassandra.
And remember, in Endgame, Kai made a promise to Sun-Tzu effectively giving up his rights to the Celestial Throne in return for allowing Kai and his formerly St. Ives troops to participate in the FedCom Civil War.
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Bob_Richter
12/12/02 09:58 AM
4.35.174.250
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1) Ridiculous! The Crusader movement is discredited and on the way out.
2) Umm. See above.
3) ABJURE the Ghost Bears? Where would you get the VOTES? The Ghost Bears have a sizable network of allies in the Clans. The motion failed once, it will fail any other time. Noone has EVER been abjured for fighting a Trial of Refusal.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
12/12/02 10:03 AM
4.35.174.250
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>>>Keep the Jihad but eliminate the nukes<<<
That makes NO sense, whatsoever.
>>>The Hell's Horses have, once again, gone to war with the Ghost Bears, this time backed up by the Ice Hellions (they still have no hope of winning but will serve to keep the Ghost Bears busy for a while). <<<
The new leadership of Clan Hell's Horses is unlikely to endorse such action.
I'll not continue responding point-for-point. Let me just sum it up this way: You need to do a LOT more research before you try writing Battletech's history.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
12/12/02 10:08 AM
4.35.174.250
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>>>The latter may be true, but the former?<<<
That's just the way fanfics are. The best of them may rise to professional quality, but most fan efforts fall below even FASA's abnormally low standard for research and reasonable historical progression.
>>>I haven't seen anything that awkward since I stopped reading Marvel comics.<<<
Apparently you don't spend a lot of time reading fanfics.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bloodrider
12/12/02 12:17 PM
152.163.189.136
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It's amazing how uptight you get over someone just having a little bit of fun with these boards, Bob. Why don't you step back and breathe, man. You act like I was seriously going to write some massive piece of fanfic, which I have neither the time nor inclination to do. Although, if I chose to, your little witticisms and criticisms wouldn't matter to me in the least. Have a very nice day.
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room..." -from Dr. Strangelove
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Toastrider
12/12/02 12:32 PM
172.133.192.111
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In reply to:
That makes NO sense, whatsoever.
Why not? You don't need nukes to wage all-out war. Consider the sheer revulsion that Kali Liao caused with her Black May attacks; why invite more trouble by using nuclear weapons?
In reply to:
The new leadership of Clan Hell's Horses is unlikely to endorse such action.
Not quite. Malavai Fletcher's dying request was acknowledged. Hell's Horses would not try a pull-out-all-the-stops war that was featured in Test of Vengeance, but I doubt they've forgotten or forgiven the Bears.
Bob, if you can't offer something substantial beyond 'this sucks, you don't know jack', why don't you just avoid this discussion? Nobody's interested in hearing you flame everyone who suggests that the Jihad could've been handled better.
--Toasty
"The survivors, not the victors, write the history books."
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Warner_Doles
12/12/02 02:44 PM
206.27.40.58
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In reply to:
“ Why not? You don't need nukes to wage all-out war. Consider the sheer revulsion that Kali Liao caused with her Black May attacks; why invite more trouble by using nuclear weapons?”
Simple. For the Word of Blake the use of Weapons of Mass Destructions, aka: WoMD fulfilled a few goals for them in their attempt to achieve victory.
1.) WoMD are an equalizer for them. Their military power is small in comparison to the house armies. They are willing to use them to achieve victory, where as house militaries are no so willing.
2.) WoMD for the WoB brings about the means in achieving their goals in defeating vastly superior militaries.
3.) WoMD are terror weapons when threats of their use one place are backed up by their use elsewhere.
4.) WoMD are deterrents against those who would counter with their own when they know the ones who they are targeting will use them regardless of what the other is willing to do. WoB are Quasi-Religious-Techno Zealots. These people will not hesitate to use whatever they need to use to achieve their goals. To them, the ends justify the means.
What people are failing to realize here is the change in Word of Blake. All one has to do is look at them when they broke off from ComStar to what they are now. When you discover this then you'll understand why they use WoMD. It will become more apparent in the future. The complaint about WoMD being used as stupid and wrong doesn't reflect the intent and reason behind them.
I guess people have this aversion to them especially if their favorite factions are nearly obliterated! One thing for sure, WoMD have been used from the beginning of this game universe. They will continue to be used in the universe if said factions decide that crossing the line to achieve their goals. If victory will be assured by their use, then they'll deploy them. Heck they were used liberally during the FedCom Civil War too. Yet I don't hear anyone yelling about that.
If you want to discuss this further, then that’s great. Let’s do so with clear points with sustenance inside of “The plot line sucks, the writers don’t have any idea what they are doing. –Or– TPTB don’t care about us fans.” That’s a failure to discuss this properly regardless if it’s one’s opinion. I say this because I don’t want to get into a griping session over this or flamed over it either. 
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Karagin
12/12/02 04:42 PM
68.21.149.179
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In reply to:
Warner wrote: Heck they were used liberally during the FedCom Civil War too. Yet I don't hear anyone yelling about that.
Really? Care to give the page number from the sourcebook for this one? I don't recall seeing anything about nukes or other WMD being used....warships yes, but nukes no...so could you please give the page or pages that talk about Victor or Katherine using these weapons?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Warner_Doles
12/12/02 04:53 PM
206.27.48.12
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Why sure I can.
FedCom Civil War Book;
Page 94
Heading: Axton.
Read the entire Battle of Axton between the 5th FC RCT and the 5th Syrtis Fusiliers.
To norrow it down though so you won't miss it, you can find the information you seek in the second column starting from the first parapgraph. The exact paragraph though that states nuclear weapons were used is the third paragraph where it states the first use of them.
Also you can read the side bar on page 95 too that explains why this paticular Katherine Loyalst used them too.
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Bloodrider
12/12/02 05:09 PM
205.188.209.77
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>1) Ridiculous! The Crusader movement is discredited and on the way out.<
At one point, this could also be said for the Warden movement. Change is a constant of the universe.
>3) ABJURE the Ghost Bears? Where would you get the VOTES? The Ghost Bears have a sizable network of allies in the Clans. The motion failed once, it will fail any other time. Noone has EVER been abjured for fighting a Trial of Refusal.<
You're assuming something I did not say. More accurately, you're trying to put words in my mouth. Nowhere in the previous post did I say that the Ghost Bears were abjured for fighting a Trial of Refusal! In fact, I gave no specific reason for it in that post, which you would have realized if you didn't flame off about it. Instead, angered that someone would try to put forth an alternative to Wizkids storyline, you tried to flame me. And this will accomplish what? Newsflash for you, O Magnificent One. You can't silence me, and you're certainly not going to cause me to run away from this board. Why? Because you have neither the power nor the authority. Your pathetically unsubtle intimidation tactics may work with others, but I am not impressed. And I am not afraid. In other words, if you think you've got it, bring it.
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room..." -from Dr. Strangelove
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Karagin
12/12/02 05:16 PM
68.21.149.179
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The use of tactical nukes, ie Battlefield nukes is NOT the same as nuking a city...and you know this.
Tac Nukes are low yeild and are more or less clean when compared to the warheads that sit on an ICBM, which are considered dirty in that their fall out is going to linger far longer then what a small tactical nuke can put out.
So I think the difference here is that while used on a small scale and what could be considered a logical choice given the fighting, what the WoB is doing borders on the same scale as Amaris and his use of nukes. The effects which according to CANON material, ie the House Books, is still felt today.
I think that is what has folks up in arms is that you and the other writers are forgetting about or ignoring the side effects of these weapons be them nukes or biochem weapons. And I find that to be really odd considering that the fear of what these weapons CAN DO is one reason they haven't been used.
Hell I spend enough time paracticing against and preparing myself to contiune to function in an enviorment you are saying is something that is going to be come common place and seeing how the human body can only last so long in such an enivorment and the fatigue/stress level is going to triple makes me wonder if you folks really understand what these weapons do beyond blowing things up.
Limited use is one thing, but given the way the write up on Outreach is given via the WK site, it reads as if 100s of nukes were used, which would effect the WHOLE planet not just and isolated area.
Using them to win a battle or start one is fine, using them like they are the coolest thing since sliced bread is another thing entirely...besides there is already a game that deals with nuclear holocust and the aftermath, it's called Twilight 2000...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Warner_Doles
12/12/02 08:26 PM
206.27.48.12
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In reply to:
“The use of tactical nukes, ie Battlefield nukes is NOT the same as nuking a city...and you know this.”
I said nothing about either. I simply stated that there was a liberal use of nuclear weapons during the Civil War. 22 of them to be exact. As a former submariner and special weapons trained, I know the difference between Tactical and Strategic weapons and the deployment.
In reply to:
”Tac Nukes are low yeild and are more or less clean when compared to the warheads that sit on an ICBM,”
Were I not bound by certain security agreements after I got out I’d take this a bit further. But I will do it this way. A tactical weapon is not just a low yield weapon. It is a certain grade of weapon. It may be a 40 kton. Where as a weapon on an ICBM like a Titan III may be a 100 Kton weapon. One blast is bigger then the other yet they accomplish the same mission. The only reason the Titan is a Strategic weapon is because of its deployment. Now if I had that same warhead and fired it from say a 205mm SP weapon it would be considered Tactical.
In reply to:
”which are considered dirty in that their fall out is going to linger far longer then what a small tactical nuke can put out.”
Um this is not exactly correct. Nuclear weapons are far cleaner than what were used in the beginning of the nuclear weapons program. In truth the effects of a 40Kton to a 100Kton are in blast only and area effect from the blast. Both are going to have the same half life for the effects of radiation and other by products. Tactical Weapons is more of a use than it is about warhead size.
In reply to:
”So I think the difference here is that while used on a small scale and what could be considered a logical choice given the fighting, what the WoB is doing borders on the same scale as Amaris and his use of nukes. The effects which according to CANON material, ie the House Books, is still felt today.”
I know how the weapons were used in the Jihad, and they aren’t as bad as you believe they are. They were used, but used selectively to achieve victory. You make it sound like they were used everywhere, when that is simply not the case. Selected worlds like Outreach were targeted for Strategic value and Tactical reasons.
In reply to:
”I think that is what has folks up in arms is that you and the other writers are forgetting about or ignoring the side effects of these weapons be them nukes or biochem weapons. And I find that to be really odd considering that the fear of what these weapons CAN DO is one reason they haven't been used. ”
First you are assuming that we are ignoring side effects. We know full well what these weapons are capable of and what destruction and death they will cause. You are wrong in making this statement.
Second you are speculating on what we are doing or has been done when you only see the tip of the ice berg here. And with that small tip everyone has already discovered the secrets of the universe and can map out exactly what has happened and why. Go back and read the aftermath on Axton. Bones was pretty specific on the results and what they were doing.
Third you have to fully understand what brought the Jihad to a head and what is purpose was. The Jihad isn’t simply a “Holy War.” Its far more involved than that. Just because you are seeing the end results doesn’t mean you can automatically draw a conclusion on how it got there. Sure one can say, “Yeah, the nuked the hell outta of dem sonsofbiscuts and burned up the planet.” When in fact there is more too it then that.
In reply to:
”Hell I spend enough time paracticing against and preparing myself to contiune to function in an enviorment you are saying is something that is going to be come common place and seeing how the human body can only last so long in such an enivorment and the fatigue/stress level is going to triple makes me wonder if you folks really understand what these weapons do beyond blowing things up.”
Yup and I spent 10 years training to destroy the other side with 16 missiles on 3 different boomers. It was a fact of life. We still do it. In the future, nuclear weapons are still a last option for them to use. If they feel that it’s warranted to deliver half a dozen 100 Kton weapons, then they will do it.
Yes we fully understand exactly what the effects are Karagin. I cut my teeth on nuclear weapons training. Loren, a former navy man also understands them fully. As does Bones and the other writers. We use the weapons in the writing for a specific purpose. They are part of the story and their use was required for the Jihad so the Blakist could obtain victory. As the Houses used them before the formation of the Star League. As did the Periphery used them against the Star League army (destroying 50 divisions) and again the Houses used them all through the succession wars.
You personally may hate them and despise their use. Any sane person should. Yet in this setting Karagin their use was mandatory so the results the Wobbies wanted to achieve would be reached. They are a necessary evil that will always be there like it or not.
In reply to:
”Limited use is one thing, but given the way the write up on Outreach is given via the WK site, it reads as if 100s of nukes were used, which would effect the WHOLE planet not just and isolated area.”
Just so we are on the same page here. The Dragoons themselves were never nuked. Remus was obliterated by nuclear weapons because of what it represented. Romulus was attacked with nothing but conventional or energy based weapons. Orbital bombardment was called in for support of ground troops embattled with the Dragoons. The fact that it reads “as if 100s of nukes were used”
In reply to:
”Using them to win a battle or start one is fine, using them like they are the coolest thing since sliced bread is another thing entirely...”
They were used as I said. They weren’t used in the manner you are implying they are.
In reply to:
”besides there is already a game that deals with nuclear holocust and the aftermath, it's called Twilight 2000...”
Yeah and they used nuclear weapons during WWIII. I know I played that game and love it. I still have the original box and material. From the first weapon being detonated on the German Army 50 miles from the Russian boarder to the retaliation on a massive scale. Nuclear weapons were used with a purpose and a reason. Just like they were by the Blakist during the Jihad.
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Toastrider
12/12/02 11:10 PM
172.157.168.173
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Warner, since you seem to be the voice of reason for the writers, let me reiterate my problems with the conceived storyline -- politely, of course.
Frankly, in my mind, the logistics of the Jihad are a little kludgey. Keep in mind that once the nukes come out, the gloves come off -- thankfully, the FedCom civil war ended before anyone could detonate any more tactical devices (yes, I did read about Axton. I might also note that the person who did set off that nuclear weapon was In Deep Kimchee).
So the problem is that in five years, Word of Blake has amassed enough military assets -- conventional, 'Mech, warships, and NBC weapons -- to trigger simultaneous strikes on numerous worlds. I say 'simultaneous' because once those NBCs come out and when word gets out about what's going on, people are going to notice and start to react. You can't do this piecemeal if you want the Jihad to go anywhere.
I have a real problem with the logistics of this. Yes, you've said that WoB has been skimming off the FWL's profits and they have the passive consent of Thomas Marik. But even WITH Terra, is that enough? The last time there was an attack of this magnitude on the Inner Sphere was the Clan Invasion, and the FC and Combine reeled like a man getting mugged in a field.
Keep in mind, it took Comstar centuries to assemble the ComGuards, and that was with a virtual monopoly over interstellar communications (thus ensuring a steady income).
I hope you see where I'm getting at. If the Jihad had been triggered fifty years down the road, with Thomas Marik being more and more sucked into the Word of Blake until the Free Worlds League was a theocracy, I could buy the attack and its results. But just five years?
Another problem I've noted: Word of Blake needed troops to spare, not just to fight but to run their reeducation camps. I assume 'reeducation' is a euphemism for 'brainwashing'. Are there THAT many religious nutcases in the Free Worlds League?
Mind you, I am not knocking how nasty WoB can be; I just don't see them having the manpower, equipment, and logistical support to pull this off all by themselves. Advice, if you would: look at Bloodrider's suggestions. It never hurts to have more than one trigger to a barroom brawl.
--Toasty
"The survivors, not the victors, write the history books."
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realworldviews
12/12/02 11:41 PM
24.98.65.31
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And remember, in Endgame, Kai made a promise to Sun-Tzu effectively giving up his rights to the Celestial Throne in return for allowing Kai and his formerly St. Ives troops to participate in the FedCom Civil War.
Ok AND.... So he made a "Promise" to Sun-Tzu. I think if the oprotunity came up, and things fell the right way, he would oppose Sun-Tzu.
Colonel Brian Davis
Gamers United
"Dreams become reality, for all who start off with a dream"
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Bloodrider
12/13/02 12:45 AM
152.163.189.136
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>Mind you, I am not knocking how nasty WoB can be; I just don't see them having the manpower, equipment, and logistical support to pull this off all by themselves. Advice, if you would: look at Bloodrider's suggestions. It never hurts to have more than one trigger to a barroom brawl.<
Well, even if he does and he likes some of them, it's really too late for anything like this in canon material imo. Wizkids plot is pretty much set in stone by this point. But there's really no reason that people who want to bring their own BattleTech campaigns into line with MWDA's setting can't use something similar to bring it about. None of us have to use canon material in our own campaigns if we don't want to, we don't have to follow canon step-by-step if there's something else we'd rather do, even when other players don't agree with our ideas. As long as your group agrees to do it that way, why let others have any influence over your decision. A fact I think we all forget at times.
Honestly, there are times when I think abiding 100% by canon material simply restricts players. The whole point is to have fun, no? Some of us appear to have lost sight of that fact over the years...*deep sigh*
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room..." -from Dr. Strangelove
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TenakaFurey
12/13/02 01:25 AM
195.92.168.172
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Warner, since you seem to be the voice of reason for the writers, let me reiterate my problems with the conceived storyline -- politely, of course.
-Politely is good…..
Frankly, in my mind, the logistics of the Jihad are a little kludgey. Keep in mind that once the nukes come out, the gloves come off -- thankfully, the FedCom civil war ended before anyone could detonate any more tactical devices (yes, I did read about Axton. I might also note that the person who did set off that nuclear weapon was In Deep Kimchee).
-And she still felt she was *right* in that she really had no other choice. Us or them….them lost.
So the problem is that in five years, Word of Blake has amassed enough military assets -- conventional, 'Mech, warships, and NBC weapons -- to trigger simultaneous strikes on numerous worlds. I say 'simultaneous' because once those NBCs come out and when word gets out about what's going on, people are going to notice and start to react. You can't do this piecemeal if you want the Jihad to go anywhere.
-Again, you really need to wait and see. There are ways to do this properly, even without the massive resources of a Great House. Add in the fact that the DC, FS and LA have their own problems, the FWL isn’t likely to be a threat and the CC is overstretched as it is…..
I have a real problem with the logistics of this. Yes, you've said that WoB has been skimming off the FWL's profits and they have the passive consent of Thomas Marik. But even WITH Terra, is that enough? The last time there was an attack of this magnitude on the Inner Sphere was the Clan Invasion, and the FC and Combine reeled like a man getting mugged in a field.
-Yes….and this time the DC has been damaged by the Bear-Combine War and the FS/LA have been gutted by a civil war. By now, those units that could be quickly rebuilt have been. They’re made up of the injured and volunteers coming back to duty. Rebuilding from now on will be much harder.
Keep in mind, it took Comstar centuries to assemble the ComGuards, and that was with a virtual monopoly over interstellar communications (thus ensuring a steady income).
-No. It took them about two months. Apart from some naval assets, ComStar built no military units during those two centuries – thought here were indeed arms factories on Terra, they exported. Since Tukayyid, ComStar opened a few factories. Since the WoB took over, they have opened yet more, expanded others, increased production and have even started ordering production from other factories in other realms. They also have the HPG revenue from House Marik and House Liao and the Chaos March and much of the Periphery, but have a smaller base on which to spend it.
I hope you see where I'm getting at. If the Jihad had been triggered fifty years down the road, with Thomas Marik being more and more sucked into the Word of Blake until the Free Worlds League was a theocracy, I could buy the attack and its results. But just five years?
-Not five. Fifteen. Terra was just Phase One. Even then, its been ten years since ten.
Another problem I've noted: Word of Blake needed troops to spare, not just to fight but to run their reeducation camps. I assume 'reeducation' is a euphemism for 'brainwashing'. Are there THAT many religious nutcases in the Free Worlds League?
-No. But you don’t have to be a religious nutcase to join the WoB. And recruitment into the WoB is at an all time high. From the Periphery. The Great Houses. The Chaos March. ComStar. Not to mention we don’t know how much of ComStar is actually the WoB.
They have money. The industrial capacity to produce the mechs. They have the manpower and the training facilities. They have a secure base of operations (Terra has been WoB for centuries). They have surprise, faith and a certain ruthlessness. Their targets are weaker than they have been for decades. And we know they start off by eliminating/disabling a major thorn in the area and a large source of independent units.
(Do not accept FM: Mercs to be correct for long;-))
What is so difficult to accept that the Wob can do this?
EJL
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Toastrider
12/13/02 01:48 AM
172.157.168.173
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In reply to:
-No. But you don’t have to be a religious nutcase to join the WoB. And recruitment into the WoB is at an all time high. From the Periphery. The Great Houses. The Chaos March. ComStar. Not to mention we don’t know how much of ComStar is actually the WoB.
According to what? This is part of the horse pill I'm having trouble swallowing. I'll admit to being not up on the Field Manuals, but I've read just about every BT novel printed and then some, with the exception of The Sword and the Dagger and those MechWarrior novels. There is very little, canonically, written about the Word of Blake that I've seen. Compared to the rise and fall of Katherine Steiner-Davion (which was mapped out over 10+ novels), this is just coming way out of left field for me.
From the novels, we've seen that Word of Blake has:
* Taken Terra. Granted, that was a good feather in their cap, and as a building point for their Jihad it's hard to top. But Terra is not the Inner Sphere.
* Assassinated Morgan Hasek-Davion. This is a 'presumed' because they never did state outright who did it. But the deductions developed by the allied commanders still hold water. However, the fact that WoB was able to slip an agent into Loki and THEN back into ComStar should have put everyone's back up.
* Screwed around on Astrokaszy and gotten the attention of Sun-Tzu Liao (Double-Blind). We all know what that got Demona Aziz, right? *bang*
I feel like I'm being asked to accept a deus ex machina here, kids, and I guess I'm too old to believe in it.
--Toasty
"The survivors, not the victors, write the history books."
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TenakaFurey
12/13/02 09:30 AM
195.92.194.12
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According to what? This is part of the horse pill I'm having trouble swallowing. I'll admit to being not up on the Field Manuals, but I've read just about every BT novel printed and then some, with the exception of The Sword and the Dagger and those MechWarrior novels. There is very little, canonically, written about the Word of Blake that I've seen. Compared to the rise and fall of Katherine Steiner-Davion (which was mapped out over 10+ novels), this is just coming way out of left field for me.
-Ahhh...I see your problem. The information about their recruitment is not gathere din one place, but is spread here and there. It can be found in variosus ources - from the ComStar SB, through Fall of Terra and Chaos March, right through to FM:CS and lately TR:3067.
For example...from TR3067...the Blue Flame....
"After capturing Terra, the Word of Blake reopened many Terran factories closed since the fall of the first Star League as part of their massive rebuildin effort."
"With complete control of the Sol system and high recruiting numbers in the Chao March,...."
Other sources tell us about the WoBs Periphery training grounds, recruitment in other areas and we know a good chunk of ComStar has already upped and left and that CoMStar is still riddled with WoB sympathisers. Even the head of the ComStar ROM was a WoBBie. And PP tells us that the WoB are even ordering stuff from the other realms - despite their industrial capacity on Terra.
From the novels, we've seen that Word of Blake has:
* Taken Terra. Granted, that was a good feather in their cap, and as a building point for their Jihad it's hard to top. But Terra is not the Inner Sphere.
-No. But it has been WoBs for ten years now. They've had the Titan Yards for six. They've taken its already impressive industrail caopacity and expanded it -reopening old factores, building new ones and expanding others.
* Assassinated Morgan Hasek-Davion. This is a 'presumed' because they never did state outright who did it. But the deductions developed by the allied commanders still hold water. However, the fact that WoB was able to slip an agent into Loki and THEN back into ComStar should have put everyone's back up.
-The thing is - all of that is mere supposition. And, given the peopel involved in working that out, is not a basis foir any intel operation.
I feel like I'm being asked to accept a deus ex machina here, kids, and I guess I'm too old to believe in it.
-Its not a deus ex machina. There is a solid basis (well, for BT) behind it.
EJL
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SuperCharger
12/13/02 09:37 PM
12.83.77.221
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Well, OK, yeah, it's just 1) Coleman made such a big deal about it in the book, and 2) in MWDA, Sun-Tzu's offspring is on the throne, so obviously Kai either never challenged him for the throne, or challenged him and failed. Maybe we should just consider this one more part of the WizKids storyline that's lame and should be changed.
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Toastrider
12/13/02 10:34 PM
172.164.192.77
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Tenaka: I don't think either of us is going to convince the other... so let's honorably 'agree to disagree'. I'd rather not turn it into a second Karagin vs Bob Richter slugfest :>
SuperCharger: The irony is that Sun-Tzu Liao was possibly the best Chancellor since the CC's formation. Now, admittedly, he pulled all manner of dirty tricks in part to strengthen his realm, but House Liao as of '67 has never been stronger or had better morale. Love him or hate him, Sun-Tzu has been -good- for the Capellans.
Which might be why his offspring is still on the throne in MWDA. Sure, Kai might have challenged him for the throne. But considering Sun-Tzu's popularity, I doubt Kai could've kept it; a revolution is more than just knocking off the guy on top, after all
--Toasty
"The survivors, not the victors, write the history books."
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Bob_Richter
12/14/02 06:39 AM
4.35.174.250
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>>>At one point, this could also be said for the Warden movement.<<<
Not at all.
First, there was never any such thing as a Warden movement. Wardenism is the Status Quo that the Crusader Movement moved against.
Second, it took CENTURIES for the Crusader Movement to rise.
Third, the Warden Philosophy never took a blow as daunting as the Annihilation (by an outsider, no less) of the Clan that was its strongest proponent.
>>>You're assuming something I did not say.<<<
And you're ignoring the majority of my arguement. Now that we've got that covered....:)
>>>In fact, I gave no specific reason for it in that post,<<<
Oh, so you DID have a reason in mind for a Supermajority of the Grand Council to vote to Abjure one of the largest and most popular Clans? Do tell.
>>>which you would have realized if you didn't flame off about it. Instead, angered that someone would try to put forth an alternative to Wizkids storyline,<<<
*ROFLMAO* You may make money as a comedian yet...
>>>Newsflash for you, O Magnificent One. You can't silence me, and you're certainly not going to cause me to run away from this board. <<<
Newsflash for you, O Easily Offended One: I'm not trying to.
Character assassination is a poor excuse for an argument.
>>>Your pathetically unsubtle intimidation tactics may work with others, but I am not impressed. And I am not afraid. In other words, if you think you've got it, bring it.<<<
HAHAHAHHAHAHAHHA
You're a very funny man, or a quite insane one. Either way, most amusing to me.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
12/14/02 06:42 AM
4.35.174.250
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>>>Why not? You don't need nukes to wage all-out war. <<<
Yes you do, by definition.
Nukes are a great way to wipe away civilization, and a few armies that have you beat on simple conventional combat power.
>>>why invite more trouble by using nuclear weapons? <<<
How can you HAVE more trouble than having every man's hand set against you?
>>>Hell's Horses would not try a pull-out-all-the-stops war that was featured in Test of Vengeance, but I doubt they've forgotten or forgiven the Bears.<<<
Nor have we forgiven them. Still, the Horses are not so short-sighted as to want to try to weaken the Warden Cause they now strongly support.
>>>Bob, if you can't offer something substantial beyond 'this sucks, you don't know jack', why don't you just avoid this discussion?<<<
If you think that's what this is, it may be pointless to continue this discussion.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
12/14/02 06:45 AM
4.35.174.250
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>>>It's amazing how uptight you get over someone just having a little bit of fun with these boards, Bob.<<<
Rather, it's amazing how uptight YOU THINK I get...
heheh.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bloodrider
12/17/02 03:42 PM
64.12.96.167
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I acknowlege the validity of your statements. I apologize to everyone on this board for losing my head and my temper.
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room..." -from Dr. Strangelove
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Bob_Richter
12/17/02 04:20 PM
4.35.174.250
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No hard feelings?
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bloodrider
12/18/02 12:09 AM
152.163.189.136
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Nope, no hard feelings. Merry Christmas, Bob.
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room..." -from Dr. Strangelove
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Bob_Richter
12/18/02 10:20 AM
4.35.174.250
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You too.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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