Karagin
12/14/02 12:51 AM
68.21.149.51
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Okay even though we know it happens...  ...it would be interesting to hear your thoughts on why this is a good idea or not a good idea...
To me the SL needs an enemy to survive, something like the Crusader Clans, thus it has more of a reason to be there, kind of like NATO, no bad guys it's kind of hard to justify the need for the alliance...or maybe have the Trinity Alliance fill the roll as the bad guys...or maybe a WoB/FWL Alliance that is an actual teaming of the two groups together against everyone else...
So what do you folks think should it disband or not?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Toastrider
12/14/02 09:52 AM
172.170.152.18
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Part of the problem of the Star League's continued existence was that whoever is First Lord will most likely be looking to improve their nation first and the rest of the Inner Sphere second. Worst case scenario was how Sun-Tzu Liao used the office to help with his invasion of St. Ives.
Add to that the military question and the bad blood that will probably be circulating around by the end of the Civil War, and yeah, I can see why the Star League would go the way of the passenger pigeon.
--Toasty
"The survivors, not the victors, write the history books."
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Moloch
12/14/02 12:25 PM
199.182.113.27
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The best choice for a First Lord would have to be Victor Davion, after the Clans have been defeated and his sister Kathrine dethroned. Comstar is a neutrol party, so no nation will be improved over another except as a whole.
Thats my .02 cents worth, being flattend under the heal of an Atlas
Popular Bumper Stickers
“Keep honking: I’m re-loading”
“If you don’t mind, please eject now: that Mech is a **** to salvage"
“I ran out of room to stencil all the Mechs I’ve killed, so now I just go by regiment’s wiped out.”
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Toastrider
12/14/02 12:33 PM
172.145.225.153
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Nice thought, but file that one under 'Not a chance in hell'.
ComStar's First Circuit already gave Victor hell for putting his duties as Precentor Martial on hold to go fight the civil war. No way would they let him go be First Lord. Not to mention that neither Sun-Tzu nor Thomas Marik would stand still for such an appointment.
Besides, the post is mostly ceremonial (despite Sun-Tzu's creative use of his authority), and Victor really hates formal ceremonies 
--Toasty
"The survivors, not the victors, write the history books."
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TenakaFurey
12/15/02 07:48 PM
195.92.168.176
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Victor woudl be a very poor chocie for First Lord. His ruel brought nothing but misery and war to the FC, and he has a habit of not controlling events, but responding to them and worse, of not making decisions if they conflict with what he feels is good - with the end result that circumstances force him to take decisions that should not have had to be made, and things are made worse because of his indecision and/or lack of action.
In short, his ability as a leader seems to have topped once he was in control of a battallion. Above that, he has experienced little other than disaster after disaster, many of which were his own doing.
EJL
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TenakaFurey
12/15/02 07:54 PM
195.92.168.176
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Yes.
Far from ending the Clan threat, its only made them angry.
Worse, it give the First Lord ana uthoriuty he doesn't really have. The First two took advantage of this to expand their realms.
Again, we need to prevent Victor becoming First Lord.
Finally, it has failed - post Operation Bulldog - to find a reason for its existence. Operation Bulldog was its sole raison d'etre. Had it found such a reason, there may be a justification to keep it on. Its hasn't. It failed to act to save St. Ives, the Lyons thumb or the FedCom Civil War. Most damning of all, it did nothing to aid the Combine or Alliance when those nations were attacked by the Clans, exposing it for the sham it really is.
Down with it.
EJL
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Toastrider
12/15/02 11:07 PM
172.153.227.148
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In reply to:
Victor woudl be a very poor chocie for First Lord. His ruel brought nothing but misery and war to the FC, and he has a habit of not controlling events, but responding to them and worse, of not making decisions if they conflict with what he feels is good - with the end result that circumstances force him to take decisions that should not have had to be made, and things are made worse because of his indecision and/or lack of action.
In short, his ability as a leader seems to have topped once he was in control of a battallion. Above that, he has experienced little other than disaster after disaster, many of which were his own doing
I think you're laying it on a little thick, Tenaka.
Victor's weakest link, canonically, is in political dealings. He's an absolute klutz in most cases, and only when things have really blown up in his face (as when he lost the entire Federated Commonwealth) has he taken those lessons to heart.
That being said, Victor's strongest points have been in the military field. He's definitely an able general, in that he's not only tactically intelligent, he's smart enough to keep the really good personnel with him (contrasting with a less confident and skilled officer, who might try and bury -- figuratively or literally -- such personnel). As a soldier, Vic really has few or no equals. A strategic battle between Victor and Anastasius Focht would be very interesting to watch play out.
So. Politically, Vic is at -best- mediocre (and that's if he's getting good advice). Militarily? Off the charts.
--Toasty
"The survivors, not the victors, write the history books."
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TenakaFurey
12/16/02 12:19 AM
195.92.168.177
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I think you're laying it on a little thick, Tenaka.
-No…I don’t think so….
Victor's weakest link, canonically, is in political dealings. He's an absolute klutz in most cases, and only when things have really blown up in his face (as when he lost the entire Federated Commonwealth) has he taken those lessons to heart.
-Yes. But..not for long. Any time he has tried to play politics, he fails. He makes things worse.
That being said, Victor's strongest points have been in the military field. He's definitely an able general, in that he's not only tactically intelligent, he's smart enough to keep the really good personnel with him (contrasting with a less confident and skilled officer, who might try and bury -- figuratively or literally -- such personnel). As a soldier, Vic really has few or no equals. A strategic battle between Victor and Anastasius Focht would be very interesting to watch play out.
-Again..I gotta disagree. Victors military reputation is overblown. He is not an able general. He is a poor general. He is a good warrior. Nothing more. He has shown some skill in handling a battalion.
That is it.
Lets look at his track record.
Trell – lost to the Clans
Twycross – almost blew that one because he didn’t conduct thorough reconnaissance. He won only through luck
Alyina – lost
Teniente – he won….but again luck played a part. Instead of having to fight the Clans, he merely had to avoid them and let ComStar and the Clans fight it out between them.
Then….for five years nothing.
3057 – he fumbles the ball with the FWL invasion. True, he was merely acting as First Prince then.
Coventry? He talks the Falcons into leaving, passing up a prime opportunity to kill off a Clan with minor losses on his side. Yes…he would have lost the task force he had with him, but overall losses would have been minor. And with border troops already in place, he could have immediately started to liberate the JFOZ.
Bulldog? With Focht, Kell, Kurita et al….how could he fail to come up with a winning plan. The phrase here is riding the coattails of others. Bulldog also had the Jags acting stupidly and a massive numerical advantage.
Serpent? He went. It would have been better for the IS if he didn’t but he did.
He won, but again he had Focht and co there. Besides…there was little tactical planning necessary.
The Civil War. Commanded by him, with others standing by as he wanted it kept internal….barring the help he got from mercs, the Outland legion, ComStar, etc. He fluffed this one. Several times he got out foxed and out maneuvered by a Lyran general! He almost lost because Omi died. The one major war where he did the planning and he loses the plot entirely.
A warrior he may be. A general? No.
So - based on this record, he has somehow garnered a reputation as a superior general and tactician?
It’s a pity whoever got him this rep didn’t help his PR campaign.
So. Politically, Vic is at – best - mediocre (and that's if he's getting good advice). Militarily? Off the charts.
Vic? Off the charts? Yes…..below them.
Put him in a Mech and he’s good. That makes him a warrior. Not a general. His planning for Twycross and Teniente also showed some capability in planning. Whatever ability he had, however, has withered away.
His major problem? He wants to be popular so he doesn’t make the tough choices. A harsh way of putting it. I could also say he’s too nice, or simply is trying to of the right thing at the time or even that he is short sighted. Pick one.
As a person, hard to imagine any better. As a general, a politician, a leader – third best is too high.
EJL
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Karagin
12/16/02 12:39 AM
68.21.149.220
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Okay first this is a post about the Star Legure, NOT VICTOR Davion.
Second, Victor does learn from his mistakes...if he didn't he wouldn't be alive...end of story.
So can we move BACK on topic and save the bashing of Victor for another thread please?
Thanks.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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TenakaFurey
12/16/02 10:44 AM
195.92.194.16
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Okay first this is a post about the Star Legure, NOT VICTOR Davion.
-No. This started out as a post on the SL and this part has moved on.
Second, Victor does learn from his mistakes...if he didn't he wouldn't be alive...end of story.
- No, he doesn't.
EJL
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Karagin
12/16/02 01:00 PM
68.21.149.189
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Take the hint, IT IS about the Star League, if you want to talk about the pros and cons of Victor do in another thread.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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TenakaFurey
12/16/02 01:31 PM
195.92.194.13
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Threads have a habit of wandering. You can't stop it happening. This started off as a SL thread, moved onto Victor and now is about keeping threads on-topic.
EJL
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Karagin
12/16/02 02:02 PM
68.21.149.189
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Wandering is fine, BUT when asked to bring it back on to topic, your comments really are not needed.
In case you forgot this is the topic:
Should the Star League disband?
So let's move back to that and again save the BS about Victor for another thread.
Thanks.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Toastrider
12/17/02 01:31 AM
172.174.199.205
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Sorry, Karagin, but I think I need to straighten Tenaka out here.
In reply to:
-Again..I gotta disagree. Victors military reputation is overblown. He is not an able general. He is a poor general. He is a good warrior. Nothing more. He has shown some skill in handling a battalion.
That is it.
Lets look at his track record.
Yes, let's.
In reply to:
Trell – lost to the Clans
Except that everyone was losing to the Clans early on the war. 3030-era tech versus Clan toys? No contest.
In reply to:
Twycross – almost blew that one because he didn’t conduct thorough reconnaissance. He won only through luck
When you figure out how to conduct comprehensive surveillance through a coriolis storm effect, let the military know. Yes, he got lucky -- but as stated in the books, he'd repositioned his forces so that even IF Kai had failed, it wouldn't have been a rout.
In reply to:
Alyina – lost
True, though the Jade Falcons were specifically hunting for him and nearly got him, too.
In reply to:
Teniente – he won….but again luck played a part. Instead of having to fight the Clans, he merely had to avoid them and let ComStar and the Clans fight it out between them.
That's not luck. That's called taking advantage of ComStar trying to play dirty. If you want to talk about luck, talk about how he narrowly avoided getting splattered by a Clan Thor during the rescue.
In reply to:
3057 – he fumbles the ball with the FWL invasion. True, he was merely acting as First Prince then.
A little more than that. He also had the Skye Rebellion crop up, which badly screwed up his ability to respond to the FWL offensive. How much of the problems he had during his tenure were due to Katherine working behind the scenes, we may never know.
In reply to:
Coventry? He talks the Falcons into leaving, passing up a prime opportunity to kill off a Clan with minor losses on his side. Yes…he would have lost the task force he had with him, but overall losses would have been minor. And with border troops already in place, he could have immediately started to liberate the JFOZ.
Up till this point I could understand (albeit vigorously disagree with) your statements.
But by saying this, I wonder if you even -read- Malicious Intent. Let me reiterate what was specifically stated: the Jade Falcons had eight Galaxies of those scientist-devised warriors out on the playing field, with enough veterans to make any fight ugly. The forces matched against each other were so equal that any battle was sure to badly hurt even the victor of the engagement.
Offering hegira was about the smartest thing he could have done. It got the Falcons off Coventry and NOBODY DIED. Exactly how is that not a good way to win?
In reply to:
Bulldog? With Focht, Kell, Kurita et al….how could he fail to come up with a winning plan. The phrase here is riding the coattails of others. Bulldog also had the Jags acting stupidly and a massive numerical advantage.
Jags -are- stupid. I believe the term Vlad Ward used was 'tactically primitive'. And yes, when you want to go to war, you generally want more people on your side than the other side has. Three to one odds to succeed, set down by the old man Hanse himself during the Fourth Succession War.
In reply to:
Serpent? He went. It would have been better for the IS if he didn’t but he did.
He won, but again he had Focht and co there. Besides…there was little tactical planning necessary.
Technical detail: Victor was not a part of Task Force Serpent. He -did- travel with Operation Bulldog's forces to save TFS on Huntress (practically in the nick of time) and fought in the Great Refusal which pretty much nailed the coffin shut on Clan aggression in the classic BT storyline. Yes, he lost his realm; that is a political problem, though, and I've already conceded his inability to handle those.
In reply to:
The Civil War. Commanded by him, with others standing by as he wanted it kept internal….barring the help he got from mercs, the Outland legion, ComStar, etc. He fluffed this one. Several times he got out foxed and out maneuvered by a Lyran general! He almost lost because Omi died. The one major war where he did the planning and he loses the plot entirely.
Fluff is a good word for this block of text. He wound up with several mercenary commands due to Katherine's rather... unique response to dealing with units that wanted to remain neutral; the Vanguard Legion and Snord's Irregulars are good examples of that. ComStar? Victor's 'support' from ComStar consisted primarily of The Prince's Men, who followed him out of loyalty.
The Lyrans DO have some talent in their officer corps, the various nasty allusions to 'social generals' notwithstanding. However, would you care to name this Lyran general? Are we talking about Nondi Steiner? Linda MacDonald?
Yes, he fell apart when Omi died. What a shock. Sorry he wasn't an automated killing machine, but only human. Even command authority doesn't make you immune to emotion, hotshot. And we know what the end result was: Victor still won the war.
--Toasty
"The survivors, not the victors, write the history books."
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Karagin
12/17/02 01:38 AM
68.21.149.237
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Okay...can we now get back to the topic please?????
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
12/17/02 01:46 AM
4.35.174.250
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The conversation can wander, while still staying on subject.
This is what has happened.
This is what always happens.
This is what you always complain about.
Is it a power issue?
Or do you just not know how to go into threaded mode?
Chances are noone else has anything to say on the original subject. If they did, they would post it at the top. :P
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Vapor
12/17/02 02:36 AM
202.128.69.204
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Threaded discussion boards exist so that a discussion can be had on a certain topic, and it is easy to see exactly which post is being replied to. That does not mean that the topic of discussion cannot change, in fact it often changes a lot. However, usually when the topic changes, the subject-line of the posts change to reflect the change in topic. This isn't always the case, however. One point that I would like to make, though, is that this is not the time/place to discuss the pros/cons of threaded vs. flat message boards. If you want to get into a flame war about that, take it into the off-topic message boards. lol
On an aside note... I'm wondering why 95% of your posts, Bob, I see coming as replies to something that Karagin said, and it's usually something at least vaguely insulting to him. Did he steal your lunch in grade school or something? 
"For those about to rock, we salute you." - AC DC
"The evil that can come, from the heart of a man, must be answered in kind 'till it disappears, and we're safe." - Kansas
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TenakaFurey
12/17/02 06:56 AM
195.92.194.12
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In reply to:
Trell – lost to the Clans
Except that everyone was losing to the Clans early on the war. 3030-era tech versus Clan toys? No contest.
-Yes. And at that stage he showed some promise as a leader.
In reply to:
Twycross – almost blew that one because he didn’t conduct thorough reconnaissance. He won only through luck
When you figure out how to conduct comprehensive surveillance through a coriolis storm effect, let the military know. Yes, he got lucky -- but as stated in the books, he'd repositioned his forces so that even IF Kai had failed, it wouldn't have been a rout.
- About a scouting party? Satellite recon? DropShip intel? Neutrino counts? HumInt. Noticing that the Falcons Guards DropShips were still on the launch pads?
Besides which – he was repositioning his forces in readiness for a retreat. His plan might have worked, but from the after battle reports, even Vic seemed to think it wouldn’t have. And what he did to try and save the battle would thus have doomed him and the rest of his command. And what Kai did was totally unplanned.
In reply to:
Alyina – lost
True, though the Jade Falcons were specifically hunting for him and nearly got him, too.
In reply to:
Teniente – he won….but again luck played a part. Instead of having to fight the Clans, he merely had to avoid them and let ComStar and the Clans fight it out between them.
That's not luck. That's called taking advantage of ComStar trying to play dirty. If you want to talk about luck, talk about how he narrowly avoided getting splattered by a Clan Thor during the rescue.
-It was luck. Instead of fighting the clans, he instead had ComStar fight them for him. And, even then, he still blundered into combat. And during a rescue mission too.
In reply to:
3057 – he fumbles the ball with the FWL invasion. True, he was merely acting as First Prince then.
A little more than that. He also had the Skye Rebellion crop up, which badly screwed up his ability to respond to the FWL offensive. How much of the problems he had during his tenure were due to Katherine working behind the scenes, we may never know.
-Very little. The FWL invasion can be laid at the feet of one man. Victor. He should have come clean about Joshua rather than try and save some C-Bills. Also, at that stage, the Skye Rebellion had fizzled out.
In reply to:
Coventry? He talks the Falcons into leaving, passing up a prime opportunity to kill off a Clan with minor losses on his side. Yes…he would have lost the task force he had with him, but overall losses would have been minor. And with border troops already in place, he could have immediately started to liberate the JFOZ.
Up till this point I could understand (albeit vigorously disagree with) your statements.
But by saying this, I wonder if you even -read- Malicious Intent. Let me reiterate what was specifically stated: the Jade Falcons had eight Galaxies of those scientist-devised warriors out on the playing field, with enough veterans to make any fight ugly. The forces matched against each other were so equal that any battle was sure to badly hurt even the victor of the engagement.
Offering hegira was about the smartest thing he could have done. It got the Falcons off Coventry and NOBODY DIED. Exactly how is that not a good way to win?
-Yes. It got them off Coventry. Good for him. Now –what about the rest of the Alliance? He had an opportunity there to wipe out a good portion of the Falcon Touman and he refused to do so, even though it would allow him to drive the Falcons out of the IS. And why did he refuse to do this? Because the fight *would* get ugly. He could not make a tough choice, and left it to Adam Steiner to clean up his mess ten years later. By refusing to destroy – and those Galaxies were a huge chunk of the Falcons Touman so destroy is the right word – he condemned billions to life under Falcons rule and by refusing to destroy the Falcons when they were weak, he guaranteed another war with them in the future. When they were strong.
So, yes. Things would have gotten ugly. But he would lose just a few regiments. The Falcons would lose everything. And the LA would be able to begin liberation of the JFOZ.
The outcome of the Trial on Coventry thus would not matter. The Falcons would be finished just as long as he fought. But, he limited himself to a short term goal. He did succeed at it, but not an any thanks due to any military skill on his part.
In reply to:
Bulldog? With Focht, Kell, Kurita et al….how could he fail to come up with a winning plan. The phrase here is riding the coattails of others. Bulldog also had the Jags acting stupidly and a massive numerical advantage.
Jags -are- stupid. I believe the term Vlad Ward used was 'tactically primitive'. And yes, when you want to go to war, you generally want more people on your side than the other side has. Three to one odds to succeed, set down by the old man Hanse himself during the Fourth Succession War.
-Yes. But he didn’t show any skill at all as a commander during that conflict. His solution was throw troops at the Jags. Him talking up the Jags as the strongest Crusader Clan in the IS doesn’t help his standing either.
In reply to:
Serpent? He went. It would have been better for the IS if he didn’t but he did.
He won, but again he had Focht and co there. Besides…there was little tactical planning necessary.
Technical detail: Victor was not a part of Task Force Serpent. He -did- travel with Operation Bulldog's forces to save TFS on Huntress (practically in the nick of time) and fought in the Great Refusal which pretty much nailed the coffin shut on Clan aggression in the classic BT storyline. Yes, he lost his realm; that is a political problem, though, and I've already conceded his inability to handle those.
-No. The Great Refusal was, technically, a mistake since it opened up the door for every single Clan to attack the IS when and how it chose without referring to the Grand Council. That they didn’t was not due to any plan of Victors.
Him going was a poor choice in any case.
In reply to:
The Civil War. Commanded by him, with others standing by as he wanted it kept internal….barring the help he got from mercs, the Outland legion, ComStar, etc. He fluffed this one. Several times he got out foxed and out maneuvered by a Lyran general! He almost lost because Omi died. The one major war where he did the planning and he loses the plot entirely.
Fluff is a good word for this block of text. He wound up with several mercenary commands due to Katherine's rather... unique response to dealing with units that wanted to remain neutral; the Vanguard Legion and Snord's Irregulars are good examples of that. ComStar? Victor's 'support' from ComStar consisted primarily of The Prince's Men, who followed him out of loyalty.
- Yes. The point is that by accepting outside help, he was being a bit hypocritical by saying he wanted to keep it an internal affair. Apparently he feels its OK to accept such help when its done out of loyalty to him, but not if accepting it would bring the war to a quicker end.
The Lyrans DO have some talent in their officer corps, the various nasty allusions to 'social generals' notwithstanding. However, would you care to name this Lyran general? Are we talking about Nondi Steiner? Linda MacDonald?
-Esteban for one. I could rattle off a few more but you’ve accepted the point.
Yes, he fell apart when Omi died. What a shock. Sorry he wasn't an automated killing machine, but only human. Even command authority doesn't make you immune to emotion, hotshot. And we know what the end result was: Victor still won the war.
- Yes. But again, not through skill.
What Vics career shows is that he is not an able general. He is not an able strategist. He is a fair tactician. He is capable of commanding a battalion - but has yet to show any real ability with anything larger. He is a very poor politician. He is nice. He is a bit of a dunce at PR. He is an excellent Mech pilot.
But, most apparent of all, he is lucky.
Now, while some would say its better to be lucky than good, it’s a pity the “Karma backlash” hits those around Victor.
EJL
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Karagin
12/17/02 08:18 AM
68.21.149.231
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Please take the Victor Bashing to PMs or to email, it has NOTHING to do with this thread.
I have asked nicely. Please this thread is about the Star League. It is NOT about Victor.
Both you have had your say and neither of you agree on this so please DROP IT and let's go back to talking about the Star League...please.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Warner_Doles
12/17/02 08:39 AM
206.27.40.58
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Hey one thing you have to realize here. Bob and Karagin have this love hate relationship. They Love to hate each other!
Try as Karagin may he is not a moderator and the guys will go where they want. These are discussion boards for just that. Discussions. The topic originally posted was addressed the posters found another subject more interesting and they are addressing it. Happens all the time no matter if the Posting Police say stop or not!   
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Toastrider
12/17/02 10:31 AM
172.144.187.17
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Tenaka, when you lie through your teeth it tends to undermine all your arguments. To wit:
In reply to:
Yes. It got them off Coventry. Good for him. Now –what about the rest of the Alliance? He had an opportunity there to wipe out a good portion of the Falcon Touman and he refused to do so, even though it would allow him to drive the Falcons out of the IS. And why did he refuse to do this? Because the fight *would* get ugly. He could not make a tough choice, and left it to Adam Steiner to clean up his mess ten years later. By refusing to destroy – and those Galaxies were a huge chunk of the Falcons Touman so destroy is the right word – he condemned billions to life under Falcons rule and by refusing to destroy the Falcons when they were weak, he guaranteed another war with them in the future. When they were strong.
So, yes. Things would have gotten ugly. But he would lose just a few regiments. The Falcons would lose everything. And the LA would be able to begin liberation of the JFOZ.
Fifty percent casualties minimum for the winner is 'a few regiments'? Tenaka, I think you should take some advice. Go back, read Malicious Intent, and then return to the discussion.
As stated in the book, 'The only scenarios that appeared the least bit hopeful were ones in which the Falcons made hideous mistakes and the coalition forces somehow managed to exploit them perfectly.'
Not to mention that some of those coalition forces did not belong to Victor, technically; the Knights of the Inner Sphere, the Harloc Raiders (Capellans), and the Eleventh Lyran Guards came in only under the coalition banner. I suppose you would be happier if he'd gotten all those troops killed fighting an equally powerful force.
In reply to:
The outcome of the Trial on Coventry thus would not matter. The Falcons would be finished just as long as he fought. But, he limited himself to a short term goal. He did succeed at it, but not an any thanks due to any military skill on his part.
A great deal of his troops would be DEAD as the result of any victory. Tell me, do you know what a Pyrrhic victory is?
Short term victory? Well, I suppose so. But consider this: the concept of the coalition force on Coventry led to the re-establishment of the Star League, and the destruction of Clan Smoke Jaguar, and eventually the Great Refusal. Works for me.
Tenaka, frankly, I'm totally disappointed in you. I thought you had more sense than this. I don't know what your problem is, but I think you need to go back and re-read the source material before you try and tell me (or anyone else, for that matter) about how 'bad' Victor is.
"The survivors, not the victors, write the history books."
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ChalengerII
12/17/02 01:04 PM
62.254.0.4
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In reply to:
But, most apparent of all, he is lucky.
TenajaFurey do you know what seperates the good generals and the truely great generals.
Luck
Challenger
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Karagin
12/17/02 01:33 PM
68.21.149.135
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You are correct I am not a moderator and neither are you. And seeing how I did start the thread I do think that asking folks to take what is now a heated arguement to PMs or email and returning to the topic well with in the rights as poster here. I am not against the topic wondering a bit...but what is going on above is nothing but flames...and add in the extra comments and we have just another flame war...something I was trying to avoid, so forgive me for trying to PREVENT something from happening.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Warner_Doles
12/17/02 02:02 PM
206.27.40.58
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"You are correct I am not a moderator and neither are you."
Correct. I never made any reference to being one. So I'm not sure to what your point in bringing this up for.
"And seeing how I did start the thread I do think that asking folks to take what is now a heated arguement to PMs or email and returning to the topic well with in the rights as poster here."
Hmm.. Heated argument? Where? Between TenakaFurey and Toastman? I don't believe so and neither do they. It appears to be a rather good point and counter-point discussion as this message board is designed for. If you are fearing a heated discussion your options are limited to either not post or ignor it and only engage in those that are staying strictly on topic. Those are the only rights you truly have on a message board of this type when people are posting in the confines of the rules and good discussions.
"but what is going on above is nothing but flames..."
There are none. If you believe so then I recommend hitting the moderator call button to get the attention of Chas or Nic if you feel that is actually happening.
"and add in the extra comments and we have just another flame war..."
Where? Are you saying that because Bob, Vapor or myself make a post is grounds for a Flame war? That's a little pompus don't you think? Sounds like you're trying to censure others from speaking their piece regardless if they stay on topic or not. That's not your right. If you feel a flame war has broke out or you are being attacked (That I haven't seen any where yet) you should hit the moderator call button to have those issues addressed. That is well with in your right.
"something I was trying to avoid, so forgive me for trying to PREVENT something from happening."
Actually with you posting "STOP" "ENOUGH" and "This is MY TOPIC" stay on topic or else... is helping matters. Seriously if you don't like what they are doing, start over or ignore it. So far no one has come even close to being one bit off color or unfriendly. Just the opposit.
I see you are upset and have issues that no one is truly engaging in the topic you posted. It happens. Maybe a new topic in a different variation of what you want. Worth a try. And far better than posting behind people telling them their posts do not qualify and to get on topic or not participate in the tread you've started. Just a friendly suggestion. Please if you are going to less than cordial or condescending in your reply to me please do not waste bandwidth. I have posted here in a respectful manner I expect the same in return. Thank you.
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Karagin
12/17/02 02:22 PM
68.21.149.135
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I think you missed the point, and if the posting between TK and Toastrider aren't pushing for the flames then tell me what are they?
Again, my asking them to let the matter go was to keep things from getting to the point it is at right now, maybe you missed the name calling and all that is going on...
I understand threads will wonder, I didn't expect it to stay on 100%, NOR did I expect a flame war between two folks over Victor's merits...that is what I would like them to stop...it has NOTHING to do with the topic and is turning into nothing more then name calling.
Now if it's wrong for me to make the simple request, then I am sorry, next time I will just write Nic or Chas and have one of them delete the whole thread.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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TenakaFurey
12/17/02 02:43 PM
195.92.168.177
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Tenaka, when you lie through your teeth it tends to undermine all your arguments. To wit:
In reply to:
Yes. It got them off Coventry. Good for him. Now –what about the rest of the Alliance? He had an opportunity there to wipe out a good portion of the Falcon Touman and he refused to do so, even though it would allow him to drive the Falcons out of the IS. And why did he refuse to do this? Because the fight *would* get ugly. He could not make a tough choice, and left it to Adam Steiner to clean up his mess ten years later. By refusing to destroy – and those Galaxies were a huge chunk of the Falcons Touman so destroy is the right word – he condemned billions to life under Falcons rule and by refusing to destroy the Falcons when they were weak, he guaranteed another war with them in the future. When they were strong.
So, yes. Things would have gotten ugly. But he would lose just a few regiments. The Falcons would lose everything. And the LA would be able to begin liberation of the JFOZ.
Fifty percent casualties minimum for the winner is 'a few regiments'? Tenaka, I think you should take some advice. Go back, read Malicious Intent, and then return to the discussion.
As stated in the book, 'The only scenarios that appeared the least bit hopeful were ones in which the Falcons made hideous mistakes and the coalition forces somehow managed to exploit them perfectly.'
Not to mention that some of those coalition forces did not belong to Victor, technically; the Knights of the Inner Sphere, the Harloc Raiders (Capellans), and the Eleventh Lyran Guards came in only under the coalition banner. I suppose you would be happier if he'd gotten all those troops killed fighting an equally powerful force.
- Yes…I have acknowledged that the troops he had on world would be mauled. Possibly even defeated. They would almost certainly sustain casualties severe enough to wipe them out as an effective force.
What is not understood is that these were not the only troops available to Victor. He had nearly a hundred more Mech regiments alone in the FC and several times that in conventional forces again. In short, those losses, terrible as they would be, would be acceptable for the end result. The destruction of a Clan and the liberation of the JFOZ.
As for him being in command of other nations troops…they were on Coventry with the expectation of fighting…even against those odds. The other leaders had agreed to this. The units expected to fight. And, even if they had not….his responsibility was to his people. If using foreign troops helped free them, he should not balk at that.
So, yes. It would have been a terrible battle. I am not denying this. What I am saying is that it would have been worthwhile. The end result would have been a gutted Falcon Clan and the liberation of much of the JFOZ.
So, for him…victory was assured. He would lose a few regiments. Those he had with him. The vast majority of his army would be safe.
In reply to:
The outcome of the Trial on Coventry thus would not matter. The Falcons would be finished just as long as he fought. But, he limited himself to a short term goal. He did succeed at it, but not an any thanks due to any military skill on his part.
A great deal of his troops would be DEAD as the result of any victory. Tell me, do you know what a Pyrrhic victory is?
-Yes. In this case, it wouldn’t apply. Because the majority of Victors troops would be alive, while the majority of the Falcons troops would be dead. There is no getting around that conclusion.
True, the majority of Victors troops on world would have been casualties. But he limited himself to a very short term goal. He succeeded at it. That does not excuse his mistake.
Short term victory? Well, I suppose so. But consider this: the concept of the coalition force on Coventry led to the re-establishment of the Star League, and the destruction of Clan Smoke Jaguar, and eventually the Great Refusal. Works for me.
- And as a future he hadn’t even considered at the time – or shouldn’t have – that should have played no part in his strategy.
EJL
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Bob_Richter
12/17/02 04:24 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>On an aside note... I'm wondering why 95% of your posts, Bob, I see coming as replies to something that Karagin said, and it's usually something at least vaguely insulting to him. Did he steal your lunch in grade school or something? <<<
No, I'd give you the real reason, but I'm afraid it would be seen by this board's wonderful moderator (I really do mean that, Nic) as a Personal Attack.
I really don't hate Karagin. I just get tired of his antics from time to time. And I don't Sarna as much as I used to.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
12/17/02 04:32 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>What is not understood is that these were not the only troops available to Victor. He had nearly a hundred more Mech regiments alone in the FC and several times that in conventional forces again. In short, those losses, terrible as they would be, would be acceptable for the end result. The destruction of a Clan and the liberation of the JFOZ.<<<
Is that, while the Federated Commonwealth (including the rebellious "Lyran Alliance") may have some TWO HUNDRED Regiments and RCTs, and while the loss of some eight to ten of them may not seem significant by comparison, the Federated Commonwealth has some SIX HUNDRED worlds, all of which get slightly annoyed if the 'Mech force covering them is withdrawn to cover gaps on the Clan Border.
The loss of even a single 'Mech regiment is significant. (an average of three worlds' Mech forces) The loss of TEN would be overwhelming.
When you control that much territory with that few troops, offense is much easier than defense.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Chas
12/17/02 05:34 PM
66.187.4.50
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1: No, they aren't pushing flame war. They're arguing spiritedly, but they aren't attacking one another.
2: You're not wrong for requesting that they return to topic.
3: They're within their rights to ignore you. That's the nature of this bulletin board.
4: If you start a topic that wanders, you can request (NOT DEMAND) that it returns to the original topic. If you're ignored? Start a new thread.
5: The above does NOT mean you can start going around maliciously trying to "poison" threads. We CAN tell the difference.
I hope this clears up any misunderstandings on your part.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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TenakaFurey
12/17/02 05:35 PM
195.92.168.174
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And I accept that.
That, however, didn't stop the FC doing the same for Operation Bulldog.
Plus, you may have noticed, the regiments on world were already slated for combat against the Falcons. Furthermore, it is possibel -liekly even - thta given time - gained through appropraiet stratgey or just wearing down the Falcons -additional troops could be found to reinforce Victors troops.
And yes, I know we are told none were available. Its still my opinion -and thats all it is opinion - that even with what he had, Victor would have been better served by fighting. The loss of ten regiments or so was worth the destruction of the Falcons.
And, with the Inner Sphere concentrated on the Clans, IS strife -while not eliminated - was a lesser threat.
Was a mere ten regiments worth it? Especially when he coudl gain so much from the sacrifice? Of course, you are dismissing the on world militias and the professional conventional troops - but so does everyone;-)
EJL
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