Bob_Richter
12/17/02 05:47 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>That, however, didn't stop the FC doing the same for Operation Bulldog.<<<
Oh, really?
Name me ten regiments that the FedCom lost during Operation Bulldog.
>>>Plus, you may have noticed, the regiments on world were already slated for combat against the Falcons.<<<
Losing Coventry's entire defense force (a likely outcome) would have been a significant blow in an attack launched by ANY possible invader. Clearly, it would have to be replaced, at full strength, drawing forces from less fortified worlds (who are likely to complain about it.)
Even worse would be the necessary reoccupation of the Falcon OZ worlds, the obvious conclusion of this line of thought.
>>>And yes, I know we are told none were available. Its still my opinion -and thats all it is opinion - that even with what he had, Victor would have been better served by fighting. The loss of ten regiments or so was worth the destruction of the Falcons.<<<
The (almost inevitable) loss of Coventry (an important production world.) and the Jade Falcon OZ to the Wolves was NOT. Those were ALSO outcomes of fighting there. But you hadn't considered that.
>>>Of course, you are dismissing the on world militias and the professional conventional troops - but so does everyone;-)<<<
I'm not. I'm talking only about 'Mech forces. 'Mechs, in this case, are the money of politics. Noone cares about conventional regiments.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Nightward
12/17/02 06:02 PM
211.26.1.97
|
As far as I remember, Victor offered Hegira to the Falcons because he knew the Wolves were in position to take their worlds if they didn't retreat. Marthe was trapped on Coventry unless Hegira was offered.
Think about what would have happened if they *HAD* fought there. The pride and joy of several Houses wouldd have been smashed, as would the Falcons. The Wolves and Steel Vipers would have glutted themselves on Jade Falcon worlds. The Vipers probably would have been happy to stay where they were, but I can garuantee that Vladimir would have kept going. We've seen what Vladimir was able to do with his shattered Wolves with what he had available to him. IMagine if he had also Absorbed what was left of Clan Jade Falcon and taken their worlds and resources as well.
Not a pleasant image, eh?
Anyway, I think you have moved a bit far afield here. The thread's topic was about dissolving the Star League, not the virtues of Victor Ian Steiner-Davion.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Karagin
12/17/02 07:24 PM
68.21.149.50
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I am glad you can tell the difference...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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TenakaFurey
12/17/02 09:19 PM
195.92.194.14
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Name me ten regiments that the FedCom lost during Operation Bulldog.
-None. The Jags out up a real poor showing.
But Vic went in expecting to get really badly mauled.
The (almost inevitable) loss of Coventry (an important production world.) and the Jade Falcon OZ to the Wolves was NOT. Those were ALSO outcomes of fighting there. But you hadn't considered that.
-I did. The troops to take advantage of the Falcons loss were already present. They were there guarding the border. Then add in the WIE and the ARDC....
And, while some losses to other Clans could be expected, many worlds would be liberated.
EJL
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TenakaFurey
12/17/02 09:22 PM
195.92.194.14
|
The (almost inevitable) loss of Coventry (an important production world.) and the Jade Falcon OZ to the Wolves was NOT. Those were ALSO outcomes of fighting there. But you hadn't considered that.
-No...that was why the Falcons accepted. The Wolves, in turn, were in no position to take any worlds from the Falcons. Even ten years later they still cannot hold onto all. Absorbing the Falcons was not a possibility - they would have fought and caused more damage.
At best, he would end up even, but with his forces spead out even more.
EJL
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Nightward
12/18/02 06:33 AM
211.26.4.192
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Tenaka, have you even read the books?
If you had, you would note that the vast majority of the Jade Falcons were on Coventry. They had *NO* troops to oppose an attack by the Wolves. Nothing at all. Solhama Infantry units, at the very best, and a few half-trained Cadets, would have been all they could have placed in the path of the Wolf. Even as shattered as the Wolves were back then, they still would have rolled through them. The Falcons could not have defended themselves. At all. No matter how good you may believe the Falcons were, they could not have held off the Wolves without troops.
The troops, if I may reiterate, that were on *COVENTRY*.
The Wolves, and Steel Vipers as soon as they woke up to what was happening, would have glutted themselves on the Jade Falcon Occupation Zone and then Absorbed whatever Falcons were left.
Yes, with the troops on Coventry, Marthe could have held off the Wolves.
But they weren't there. They were on *COVENTRY*.
Which is why Victor offered Hegira, because he knew Marthe would have to accept if she wanted to defend her holdings.
Do you understand now? Victor knew that he could have won the fight on Twycross. But he would have shattered every unit he bought with him in so doing. And then Vladimir Ward and Perigard Zalman would have taken up where the Falcons left off. Or, he could allow Marthe to retreat, to keep the Wolves tied up (and thus preventing them from attacking his realm), and not loose any more lives in a stupid, senseless fight.
Hmmm. Let me do the math there. Destroy ten Regiments or more wholesale, and kill the Falcons. The Wolves and Vipers take up where the Falcons left off. Or, no lives lost, the Falcons retreat and keep the other Clans occupied. Uhhhhh...
You'll forgive me for my condescending tone and constant repition. All I've seen of you in this thread is mindless Victor-bashing (and hey, that's fine. Not everyone likes Vicotr, and not everyone has to like Victor), and poorly constructed arguments that basically amount to midless rants. Take a look at the big picture instead of attacking a single character.
And at least listen to what other people have to say.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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TenakaFurey
12/18/02 09:09 AM
195.92.168.176
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Tenaka, have you even read the books?
-Yes.
If you had, you would note that the vast majority of the Jade Falcons were on Coventry. They had *NO* troops to oppose an attack by the Wolves. Nothing at all. Solhama Infantry units, at the very best, and a few half-trained Cadets, would have been all they could have placed in the path of the Wolf. Even as shattered as the Wolves were back then, they still would have rolled through them. The Falcons could not have defended themselves. At all. No matter how good you may believe the Falcons were, they could not have held off the Wolves without troops.
-No, the Wolves would have had something to fight. The Falcons were rotating troops off Coventry continually. They were using it as training ground. You’re also missing another point. They would have lost troops – troops they could ill afford to lose and gain yet more territory that they could not garrison. They did not have enough to effectively garrison what they did have – yet alone angle for more. Vlads’ move was good….a strategic strike to net a limited amount of worlds. A massive invasion, however, was not possible.
The troops, if I may reiterate, that were on *COVENTRY*.
-A lot of them were. Not all. But enough to make it worthwhile.
Which is why Victor offered Hegira, because he knew Marthe would have to accept if she wanted to defend her holdings.
-But he didn’t even know about the offer. He made it only to avoid bloodshed. He didn’t know whether she would accept or not. And, if Vlad hadn’t made that move, there was a real chance she wouldn’t have. Victor, in other words, was trying to be clever. He let everyone worry about the future fighting and didn’t even tell his commanders that he was going to make the offer.
Do you understand now? Victor knew that he could have won the fight on Twycross. But he would have shattered every unit he bought with him in so doing. And then Vladimir Ward and Perigard Zalman would have taken up where the Falcons left off. Or, he could allow Marthe to retreat, to keep the Wolves tied up (and thus preventing them from attacking his realm), and not loose any more lives in a stupid, senseless fight.
- He would have shattered every unit he had with him, the leaving the zone unguarded enough for his border guards to start moving onto the offensive instead of mere raids. Yes – the other Clans would have taken some worlds. That wouldn’t change the fact that he would have destroyed the Falcons as an effective military force, and pushed them out of the Inner Sphere, while liberating many LA worlds in the process.
The Wolves were not in a position to do anything about it. Ragnar should have been able to tell him that.
Hmmm. Let me do the math there. Destroy ten Regiments or more wholesale, and kill the Falcons. The Wolves and Vipers take up where the Falcons left off. Or, no lives lost, the Falcons retreat and keep the other Clans occupied. Uhhhhh...
-That’s missing the point. The Vipers and Wolves probably would have taken some worlds. How many could the FC/LA have retaken? How many billions would he have freed? How many lives would he have saved by taking action then? Audacity shows what the LA/ARDC/FC and so on was capable of doing. And that was during a Civil War.
You'll forgive me for my condescending tone and constant repetition. All I've seen of you in this thread is mindless Victor-bashing (and hey, that's fine. Not everyone likes Victor, and not everyone has to like Victor), and poorly constructed arguments that basically amount to mindless rants. Take a look at the big picture instead of attacking a single character.
-I do. And I like Victor. I may not show it. I think he’s a swell guy. I also think he’s a moron, a political dunce and has an over inflated sense of importance and competence. His real asset is not skill, or personality. It’s luck.
And at least listen to what other people have to say.
-I do. On occasion, I have even changed my mind
EJL
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Bob_Richter
12/18/02 10:27 AM
4.35.174.250
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>>>None. The Jags out up a real poor showing.
But Vic went in expecting to get really badly mauled.<<<
A worst-case scenario that VASTLY overestimated Jaguar force strength -- and intelligence.
And, actually, Victor only really expected it to TAKE longer. The loss of even a single regiment as an effective combat unit would have been as unexpected in Op: Bulldog as it was in his father's invasion of the Capellan Confederation.
>>>-I did. The troops to take advantage of the Falcons loss were already present. They were there guarding the border. Then add in the WIE and the ARDC....<<<
Those troops, including the WiE and the ARDC, are ACTUALLY NEEDED TO GUARD THE BORDER. The AFFC still (inexplicably) has yet to recover from its losses in Operation Revival.
>>>And, while some losses to other Clans could be expected, many worlds would be liberated.<<<
And the final point not examined: The Inner Sphere forces on Coventry were not large enough for any reasonable projection of destroying the Jade Falcons as an effective force, especially considering the four to five Jade Falcon Galaxies *NOT* present, enough to provide minimal protection of their OZ and homeworld holdings.
The ONLY thing Victor would CERTAINLY have accomplished on Coventry is the loss of a number of 'Mech units. The risk was not worth it.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
12/18/02 10:34 AM
4.35.174.250
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>>>That’s missing the point. The Vipers and Wolves probably would have taken some worlds. How many could the FC/LA have retaken?<<<
A few worlds would have changed hands, and the balance would not have been favorable, just as in Operation Audacity, but the Margin would have been worse. The Jade Falcons were stronger then, and the Steel Vipers were in a position to pounce on ANYONE'S weakness. I would have argued that the Falcons of the time couldn't take the Steel Vipers at the time, and if the FedCom garrisons were so flipping powerful, why not just move in and occupy the territory anyway?
They weren't. The FedCom lacked the power to make any headway against the Falcons/Steel Vipers. Victor knew it. Marthe knew it. Stackpole knew it. Somehow, you missed it.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Toastrider
12/18/02 11:47 AM
172.150.191.120
|
You know something's up when Bob Richter, myself, and Nightward all agree on something 
--Toasty
"The survivors, not the victors, write the history books."
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TenakaFurey
12/18/02 11:14 PM
195.92.168.177
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At least we can agree that - for all the supposed threat they represented - the Jags put up a real poor show;-)
Those troops, including the WiE and the ARDC, are ACTUALLY NEEDED TO GUARD THE BORDER. The AFFC still (inexplicably) has yet to recover from its losses in Operation Revival.
-But - with the forces on Coventry destroyed or shattered, they could move the border over a bit.....
>>>And, while some losses to other Clans could be expected, many worlds would be liberated.<<<
And the final point not examined: The Inner Sphere forces on Coventry were not large enough for any reasonable projection of destroying the Jade Falcons as an effective force, especially considering the four to five Jade Falcon Galaxies *NOT* present, enough to provide minimal protection of their OZ and homeworld holdings.
-You're right. They woudln't have been able to destroy the entire Falcon Touamn. They were large enough to shatter the Galaxies on world - this was the point behind Victors dilemma.
So he had the opportunity to destroy/shatter the Falcons Touman and the troops in place to take advantage of it. The FC losses would have been bad, but they were not not recoverable losses.
Had he fought, it is conceivable that a mobile strategy could have bought the necessary time for reinforcements to arrive. Or thta, had he communiacted the number of troops onw orld to Phelan or someone else, they could have taken steps - the WiE were held because they feared a Falcon trap. WIth the majority of them on Coventry, they could move, both to aid Victor and liberate the JFOZ.
Had he fought, Victor was in a classic no-lose situation. The Falcons were in a no-win situation if they fought. The losses that they would absorb fighting Victor would have destroyed them - and that was the crux of their dilemma.
Victor knew they were weak. He knew they were desperate. He knew they had just fought the Refusal War and had suffered terrible losses. He was being advised by Ragnar. So he knew all of this.
And he let them go.
EJL
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Nightward
12/19/02 04:10 AM
210.50.60.169
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Ye Gods 
I dunno. It seems Tenaka seems bent on his revisionist, pro-Katherine version of events. I give up.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Bob_Richter
12/19/02 01:22 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>But - with the forces on Coventry destroyed or shattered, they could move the border over a bit.....<<<
The AFFC would have needed the forces THEY had on Coventry to move the border.
If the eight galaxies on Coventry had mysteriously ceased to exist (with no losses for the AFFC,) there might have been SOME positive motion on that front, but under the circumstances you describe it is unthinkable.
>>>They were large enough to shatter the Galaxies on world - this was the point behind Victors dilemma.<<<
They were NOT large enough to shatter the Galaxies on world. They were barely large enough to DEFEND themselves from eight Galaxies, to say nothing of ATTACKING them.
>>>WIth the majority of them on Coventry, they could move, both to aid Victor and liberate the JFOZ.<<<
Which would amount to a Steel Viper trap, as the Vipers came rolling over the laughable garrisons they would leave on any liberated worlds. The Wolves could perhaps reinforce Victor, but they had only two Galaxies. Enough to swing the balance toward victory, but not enough to change the essential nature of the battle.
>>>Had he fought, Victor was in a classic no-lose situation. <<<
Had he fought, Victor would be dead or a bondsman, Katherine Steiner-Davion would be the LEGITIMATE ruler of a united Federated Commonwealth, and the Steel Vipers would have won their war with the Jade Falcons. Not much changes.
>>>And he let them go.<<<
He couldn't have stopped them from going. Any effort to do so would have been futile, and would only have made the situation worse.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
12/19/02 01:23 PM
4.35.174.250
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Quite.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Nightmare
12/19/02 02:15 PM
80.222.92.246
|
>He couldn't have stopped them from going. Any effort to do so would have been futile, and would only have made the situation worse.
Just out of curiosity, why did the Chartreuse Pelicans find it desirable to accept Hegira if they could just pack up and leave at will? It`s certainly not dishonorable to skip a fight if there`s something more important to do? Like defending your present holdings instead of adding new ones.
Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
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TenakaFurey
12/19/02 02:37 PM
195.92.168.172
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The AFFC would have needed the forces THEY had on Coventry to move the border.
-Not really - the forces they had in place to hold the JF border - which were still there - as well as those in the ARDC and of the WiE were available for that operation.
Especially with a lot of the Falcons units destroyed or shattered on Coventry.
Which would amount to a Steel Viper trap, as the Vipers came rolling over the laughable garrisons they would leave on any liberated worlds. The Wolves could perhaps reinforce Victor, but they had only two Galaxies.
-If the forces ont he border were enough to hold off the Vipers previously, why would that change? Especially since the ARDC had been reinforced with anti-Katie units and the WiE. Yes...some worlds would undoubtedly fall to the Vieprs...and others to the Wolves. But the LA could have liberated many of its worlds.
>>>Had he fought, Victor was in a classic no-lose situation. <<<
Had he fought, Victor would be dead or a bondsman, Katherine Steiner-Davion would be the LEGITIMATE ruler of a united Federated Commonwealth, and the Steel Vipers would have won their war with the Jade Falcons. Not much changes.
-The status of Victor losing or being a bondsman is difficult to determine. The forces arrayed against each other were equal in strength. The "winner" as such would thus be difficult to determine.
What is beyond a doubt is that Victor had a situation where the Falcons could not withdraw without proving themselves weak and thus open to predation. And he knew that. Had he fought the Falcon units would have been shattered no matter who won the battle. Wiht the rihgt timing, he could even ahve captured many of the Falcons JumpShips -with the result that he would for a time strand what was left.
>>>And he let them go.<<<
He couldn't have stopped them from going. Any effort to do so would have been futile, and would only have made the situation worse.
-He actually gave them the only way out that existed. Had they merely retreated, then they would prove themselves weak to the other Clans. That was a large reason behind Coventry after all. Running was not something they could easily do.
EJL
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NathanKell
12/19/02 03:40 PM
67.86.58.8
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What seems to me to be somewhat missing in this discussion is that this is not some one-house-is-as-bad-as-another territory grab. This is LIBERATION.
Victor wants to liberate his people from Katherine--but not Clan slavery?
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Nightward
12/19/02 05:13 PM
202.138.17.182
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Uhhh...
The Clans aren't as bad as eeryone made out. Yes, the Jaguars were brutal, but the Falcons were much gentler, and the Wolves and Bears the best of all towards their captured citizens. We have had our discussion about the Clan caste systems before, and basically: there is no diference between the Clans and the Great Houses. Civilians of the Clans have less access to cutting-edge civilian technologies, but have access to Star League-level medical care and excellent education etc etc etc. If anything, many civilians would have been better of amongst the Clans.
If Katherine had really been serious about getting her worlds and people back, she could have done so. The LCAF wasn't that bad, so they could have re-taken a few worlds, but she was too hell-bent on taking the Federated Commonwealth for herself. Criticising Victor for not doing so makes no sense, as he would have had to use the Lyran Commonwealth- the very nation he was EXILED from, as a staging area, and bought Federated Suns troops- TROOPS BARRED FROM ENTERING THE REALM- with him to do so.
So he'd have been damned if he did, and he's damned because he didn't?
You can't have it both ways.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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NathanKell
12/19/02 09:00 PM
67.86.58.8
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We have indeed.
Though I can't bear not taking the opportunity: "but have access to Star League-level medical care and excellent education." The latter I can't take issue with (as, lacking WoK, I don't know any better); but the former is blatantly untrue: why do laborers have a life expectancy less than half the average SL citizen (50 vs 120) if this is true?
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
TenakaFurey
12/19/02 09:21 PM
195.92.168.171
|
We don't know. Access to even 20th Century medicine and technology should push the average life expectancy much higher.
So:
Either the figures are right,and for some reason, the Clans do have a low average life expectancy.
Or:
Its yet another example of Phelan getting his figures wrong.
Unfortunately, until we knwo otherwise,w e have to assume him correct.
On the plus side, the castes don't have access to SL tech medical knowlegde. They have access to Clan level medical technology. Which makes the life expectancy even stranger, even though the Clans generally don't waste such knowledge on the old.
EJL
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Nightward
12/20/02 04:09 AM
202.138.17.84
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Maybe it's because Clan Labourers actually work, wheras Inner Spherians don't
It's also possible that the life expectancy is so low because of work accidents and a low number of actual Labourers.
Statistics are weird.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Nightmare
12/20/02 08:25 AM
80.222.92.246
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I suspect they don`t use that medical knowledge on someone who won`t be fully healed. Unless it`s someone who does most of his work by thinking, of course. Crippled labourers are probably expected to kill themselves so they don`t burden the clan.
Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
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Bob_Richter
12/20/02 08:26 AM
4.35.174.250
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>>>-Not really - the forces they had in place to hold the JF border - which were still there - as well as those in the ARDC and of the WiE were available for that operation.<<<
Not really. They were needed for the jobs they were already doing. Planets don't cease needing a defense force because a handful of Jade Chickens get a little chewed up.
>>>-If the forces ont he border were enough to hold off the Vipers previously, why would that change?<<<
Two words: Force Density. If you move those units forward, they lose Density. If you don't, you don't gain ground. Make up your mind.
>>>The forces arrayed against each other were equal in strength.<<<
Nonsense.
>>>The "winner" as such would thus be difficult to determine.
<<<
That casualties would be high on the AFFC side in either case is not in doubt. The casualty rate among commanding officers is something higher than that of men of lower ranks.
>>>-He actually gave them the only way out that existed. Had they merely retreated, then they would prove themselves weak to the other Clans.<<<
The Clans know how to accept a loss of Honor for a gain of Glory. Beating off the Wolves actually had more importance to the Jade Falcons' status among the Clans than did holding Coventry.
In other words, they would have lost MORE had they NOT retreated, Hegira or no.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
12/20/02 08:27 AM
4.35.174.250
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>>>Just out of curiosity, why did the Chartreuse Pelicans find it desirable to accept Hegira if they could just pack up and leave at will? <<<
One loses LESS honor by accepting Hegira than by Just Leaving.
AFFC aerospace forces were (by far) insufficient to handle the aerospace component of Eight Falcon Galaxies.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
12/20/02 08:30 AM
4.35.174.250
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>>>why do laborers have a life expectancy less than half the average SL citizen (50 vs 120) if this is true? <<<
Suffice it to say that Geriatrics is not a specialty of Clan Medicine.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Toastrider
12/20/02 10:51 AM
172.166.139.34
|
In reply to:
One loses LESS honor by accepting Hegira than by Just Leaving.
Technically incorrect. Hegira allows a defeated opponent to withdraw with -no- loss of face or honor. The Jade Falcons could not withdraw because they had already bid their forces; to withdraw in the face of the Inner Sphere force would have made them dezgra.
By offering them hegira, Victor basically opened a door for the Falcons to leave with no further bloodshed.
Now, if you want something to -really- give you a headache, consider this: several folks have noted Terra's manufacturing abilities. If this is the case, explain why Precentor Lisa Koenigs-Cober told both the Precentor Martial and the Primus that Terra was only useful as a symbol. (Malicious Intent)
She didn't know about the factories? Well, possibly, but extremely thin since Lisa was the commander of the Terran garrisons. And certainly either the Precentor Martial or the Primus should have corrected her. If she did know and lied, to what end? The probability that she was a WoB sleeper agent is pretty low, and, again, if she had professed ignorance certainly the Primus and Focht should have said -something-.
Tsk tsk tsk.
--Toasty
"The survivors, not the victors, write the history books."
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Bloodrider
12/21/02 01:30 AM
205.188.209.77
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>Now, if you want something to -really- give you a headache, consider this: several folks have noted Terra's manufacturing abilities. If this is the case, explain why Precentor Lisa Koenigs-Cober told both the Precentor Martial and the Primus that Terra was only useful as a symbol. (Malicious Intent)<
Possibly because Comstar had not yet reopened all of Terra's manufacturing plants, which WoB did according to the fluff in TRO 3067?
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room..." -from Dr. Strangelove
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TenakaFurey
12/21/02 11:39 AM
195.92.194.16
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Trouble is, even that would only go so far.
Impelmenting rudimentary safety features woudl cut down ona lot of damger, and evn simple health care would mean a relatively long life for many.
And yet...for some reason, Clan life expectancy is very low.
EJL
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TenakaFurey
12/21/02 11:40 AM
195.92.194.16
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Geriatrics - no.
But basic health care should be within the Clans reach.
EJL
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TenakaFurey
12/21/02 11:54 AM
195.92.194.16
|
Not really. They were needed for the jobs they were already doing. Planets don't cease needing a defense force because a handful of Jade Chickens get a little chewed up.
-You mean, launching raids was more important than holding the territory? No, their job was to retake the territory. Victor had a chance to allow them to do that relatively painlessly by ensuring that reinforcements would not readily available, and the garrison relatively weak.
Shifting troops to other purpsoses like that has never been a problem for him at any othe time. Thus why would this be different?
Two words: Force Density. If you move those units forward, they lose Density. If you don't, you don't gain ground. Make up your mind.
-The border had been recently reinforced with units dissatisfied with Ktaies rule and the WIE. Force desnity was thus not a major concern. They could reduce it to 3056 levels and still retake worlds, engage in a number of strong raiding actions, and still have better defences.
Whats more, their defensive lines would have shrunk, and they would really ned to concentrate on the Viper border with the Wolves as weak as they were.
>>>The forces arrayed against each other were equal in strength.<<<
Nonsense.
-Why do you say this/ The fact that they were even matched in a ecntral theme in the end game of that plot. It was the crux of the dilemmas of both sides. Each side could potentially win, but would take grievous damage in doing so. The difference was that Victor didn't have a majority of his army with him.
>>>-He actually gave them the only way out that existed. Had they merely retreated, then they would prove themselves weak to the other Clans.<<<
The Clans know how to accept a loss of Honor for a gain of Glory. Beating off the Wolves actually had more importance to the Jade Falcons' status among the Clans than did holding Coventry.
In other words, they would have lost MORE had they NOT retreated, Hegira or no.
-No. ey coudln't retreat without a major loss of honour and a show of weakness. They would be admitting they could not take on the Inner Spere. That in turn would open them up to predation from the other clans and weaken them further.
So, they could not just retreat. It would have been almost as bad as fighting. Only by accepting hegira could they leave.
The Wolves threat helped ensure they did accept it, but that was all.
EJL
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