Karagin
12/14/02 12:51 AM
68.21.149.51
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Okay even though we know it happens...  ...it would be interesting to hear your thoughts on why this is a good idea or not a good idea...
To me the SL needs an enemy to survive, something like the Crusader Clans, thus it has more of a reason to be there, kind of like NATO, no bad guys it's kind of hard to justify the need for the alliance...or maybe have the Trinity Alliance fill the roll as the bad guys...or maybe a WoB/FWL Alliance that is an actual teaming of the two groups together against everyone else...
So what do you folks think should it disband or not?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Toastrider
12/14/02 09:52 AM
172.170.152.18
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Part of the problem of the Star League's continued existence was that whoever is First Lord will most likely be looking to improve their nation first and the rest of the Inner Sphere second. Worst case scenario was how Sun-Tzu Liao used the office to help with his invasion of St. Ives.
Add to that the military question and the bad blood that will probably be circulating around by the end of the Civil War, and yeah, I can see why the Star League would go the way of the passenger pigeon.
--Toasty
"The survivors, not the victors, write the history books."
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Moloch
12/14/02 12:25 PM
199.182.113.27
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The best choice for a First Lord would have to be Victor Davion, after the Clans have been defeated and his sister Kathrine dethroned. Comstar is a neutrol party, so no nation will be improved over another except as a whole.
Thats my .02 cents worth, being flattend under the heal of an Atlas
Popular Bumper Stickers
“Keep honking: I’m re-loading”
“If you don’t mind, please eject now: that Mech is a **** to salvage"
“I ran out of room to stencil all the Mechs I’ve killed, so now I just go by regiment’s wiped out.”
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Toastrider
12/14/02 12:33 PM
172.145.225.153
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Nice thought, but file that one under 'Not a chance in hell'.
ComStar's First Circuit already gave Victor hell for putting his duties as Precentor Martial on hold to go fight the civil war. No way would they let him go be First Lord. Not to mention that neither Sun-Tzu nor Thomas Marik would stand still for such an appointment.
Besides, the post is mostly ceremonial (despite Sun-Tzu's creative use of his authority), and Victor really hates formal ceremonies 
--Toasty
"The survivors, not the victors, write the history books."
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TenakaFurey
12/15/02 07:48 PM
195.92.168.176
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Victor woudl be a very poor chocie for First Lord. His ruel brought nothing but misery and war to the FC, and he has a habit of not controlling events, but responding to them and worse, of not making decisions if they conflict with what he feels is good - with the end result that circumstances force him to take decisions that should not have had to be made, and things are made worse because of his indecision and/or lack of action.
In short, his ability as a leader seems to have topped once he was in control of a battallion. Above that, he has experienced little other than disaster after disaster, many of which were his own doing.
EJL
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TenakaFurey
12/15/02 07:54 PM
195.92.168.176
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Yes.
Far from ending the Clan threat, its only made them angry.
Worse, it give the First Lord ana uthoriuty he doesn't really have. The First two took advantage of this to expand their realms.
Again, we need to prevent Victor becoming First Lord.
Finally, it has failed - post Operation Bulldog - to find a reason for its existence. Operation Bulldog was its sole raison d'etre. Had it found such a reason, there may be a justification to keep it on. Its hasn't. It failed to act to save St. Ives, the Lyons thumb or the FedCom Civil War. Most damning of all, it did nothing to aid the Combine or Alliance when those nations were attacked by the Clans, exposing it for the sham it really is.
Down with it.
EJL
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Toastrider
12/15/02 11:07 PM
172.153.227.148
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In reply to:
Victor woudl be a very poor chocie for First Lord. His ruel brought nothing but misery and war to the FC, and he has a habit of not controlling events, but responding to them and worse, of not making decisions if they conflict with what he feels is good - with the end result that circumstances force him to take decisions that should not have had to be made, and things are made worse because of his indecision and/or lack of action.
In short, his ability as a leader seems to have topped once he was in control of a battallion. Above that, he has experienced little other than disaster after disaster, many of which were his own doing
I think you're laying it on a little thick, Tenaka.
Victor's weakest link, canonically, is in political dealings. He's an absolute klutz in most cases, and only when things have really blown up in his face (as when he lost the entire Federated Commonwealth) has he taken those lessons to heart.
That being said, Victor's strongest points have been in the military field. He's definitely an able general, in that he's not only tactically intelligent, he's smart enough to keep the really good personnel with him (contrasting with a less confident and skilled officer, who might try and bury -- figuratively or literally -- such personnel). As a soldier, Vic really has few or no equals. A strategic battle between Victor and Anastasius Focht would be very interesting to watch play out.
So. Politically, Vic is at -best- mediocre (and that's if he's getting good advice). Militarily? Off the charts.
--Toasty
"The survivors, not the victors, write the history books."
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TenakaFurey
12/16/02 12:19 AM
195.92.168.177
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I think you're laying it on a little thick, Tenaka.
-No…I don’t think so….
Victor's weakest link, canonically, is in political dealings. He's an absolute klutz in most cases, and only when things have really blown up in his face (as when he lost the entire Federated Commonwealth) has he taken those lessons to heart.
-Yes. But..not for long. Any time he has tried to play politics, he fails. He makes things worse.
That being said, Victor's strongest points have been in the military field. He's definitely an able general, in that he's not only tactically intelligent, he's smart enough to keep the really good personnel with him (contrasting with a less confident and skilled officer, who might try and bury -- figuratively or literally -- such personnel). As a soldier, Vic really has few or no equals. A strategic battle between Victor and Anastasius Focht would be very interesting to watch play out.
-Again..I gotta disagree. Victors military reputation is overblown. He is not an able general. He is a poor general. He is a good warrior. Nothing more. He has shown some skill in handling a battalion.
That is it.
Lets look at his track record.
Trell – lost to the Clans
Twycross – almost blew that one because he didn’t conduct thorough reconnaissance. He won only through luck
Alyina – lost
Teniente – he won….but again luck played a part. Instead of having to fight the Clans, he merely had to avoid them and let ComStar and the Clans fight it out between them.
Then….for five years nothing.
3057 – he fumbles the ball with the FWL invasion. True, he was merely acting as First Prince then.
Coventry? He talks the Falcons into leaving, passing up a prime opportunity to kill off a Clan with minor losses on his side. Yes…he would have lost the task force he had with him, but overall losses would have been minor. And with border troops already in place, he could have immediately started to liberate the JFOZ.
Bulldog? With Focht, Kell, Kurita et al….how could he fail to come up with a winning plan. The phrase here is riding the coattails of others. Bulldog also had the Jags acting stupidly and a massive numerical advantage.
Serpent? He went. It would have been better for the IS if he didn’t but he did.
He won, but again he had Focht and co there. Besides…there was little tactical planning necessary.
The Civil War. Commanded by him, with others standing by as he wanted it kept internal….barring the help he got from mercs, the Outland legion, ComStar, etc. He fluffed this one. Several times he got out foxed and out maneuvered by a Lyran general! He almost lost because Omi died. The one major war where he did the planning and he loses the plot entirely.
A warrior he may be. A general? No.
So - based on this record, he has somehow garnered a reputation as a superior general and tactician?
It’s a pity whoever got him this rep didn’t help his PR campaign.
So. Politically, Vic is at – best - mediocre (and that's if he's getting good advice). Militarily? Off the charts.
Vic? Off the charts? Yes…..below them.
Put him in a Mech and he’s good. That makes him a warrior. Not a general. His planning for Twycross and Teniente also showed some capability in planning. Whatever ability he had, however, has withered away.
His major problem? He wants to be popular so he doesn’t make the tough choices. A harsh way of putting it. I could also say he’s too nice, or simply is trying to of the right thing at the time or even that he is short sighted. Pick one.
As a person, hard to imagine any better. As a general, a politician, a leader – third best is too high.
EJL
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Karagin
12/16/02 12:39 AM
68.21.149.220
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Okay first this is a post about the Star Legure, NOT VICTOR Davion.
Second, Victor does learn from his mistakes...if he didn't he wouldn't be alive...end of story.
So can we move BACK on topic and save the bashing of Victor for another thread please?
Thanks.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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TenakaFurey
12/16/02 10:44 AM
195.92.194.16
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Okay first this is a post about the Star Legure, NOT VICTOR Davion.
-No. This started out as a post on the SL and this part has moved on.
Second, Victor does learn from his mistakes...if he didn't he wouldn't be alive...end of story.
- No, he doesn't.
EJL
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Karagin
12/16/02 01:00 PM
68.21.149.189
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Take the hint, IT IS about the Star League, if you want to talk about the pros and cons of Victor do in another thread.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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TenakaFurey
12/16/02 01:31 PM
195.92.194.13
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Threads have a habit of wandering. You can't stop it happening. This started off as a SL thread, moved onto Victor and now is about keeping threads on-topic.
EJL
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Karagin
12/16/02 02:02 PM
68.21.149.189
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Wandering is fine, BUT when asked to bring it back on to topic, your comments really are not needed.
In case you forgot this is the topic:
Should the Star League disband?
So let's move back to that and again save the BS about Victor for another thread.
Thanks.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Toastrider
12/17/02 01:31 AM
172.174.199.205
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Sorry, Karagin, but I think I need to straighten Tenaka out here.
In reply to:
-Again..I gotta disagree. Victors military reputation is overblown. He is not an able general. He is a poor general. He is a good warrior. Nothing more. He has shown some skill in handling a battalion.
That is it.
Lets look at his track record.
Yes, let's.
In reply to:
Trell – lost to the Clans
Except that everyone was losing to the Clans early on the war. 3030-era tech versus Clan toys? No contest.
In reply to:
Twycross – almost blew that one because he didn’t conduct thorough reconnaissance. He won only through luck
When you figure out how to conduct comprehensive surveillance through a coriolis storm effect, let the military know. Yes, he got lucky -- but as stated in the books, he'd repositioned his forces so that even IF Kai had failed, it wouldn't have been a rout.
In reply to:
Alyina – lost
True, though the Jade Falcons were specifically hunting for him and nearly got him, too.
In reply to:
Teniente – he won….but again luck played a part. Instead of having to fight the Clans, he merely had to avoid them and let ComStar and the Clans fight it out between them.
That's not luck. That's called taking advantage of ComStar trying to play dirty. If you want to talk about luck, talk about how he narrowly avoided getting splattered by a Clan Thor during the rescue.
In reply to:
3057 – he fumbles the ball with the FWL invasion. True, he was merely acting as First Prince then.
A little more than that. He also had the Skye Rebellion crop up, which badly screwed up his ability to respond to the FWL offensive. How much of the problems he had during his tenure were due to Katherine working behind the scenes, we may never know.
In reply to:
Coventry? He talks the Falcons into leaving, passing up a prime opportunity to kill off a Clan with minor losses on his side. Yes…he would have lost the task force he had with him, but overall losses would have been minor. And with border troops already in place, he could have immediately started to liberate the JFOZ.
Up till this point I could understand (albeit vigorously disagree with) your statements.
But by saying this, I wonder if you even -read- Malicious Intent. Let me reiterate what was specifically stated: the Jade Falcons had eight Galaxies of those scientist-devised warriors out on the playing field, with enough veterans to make any fight ugly. The forces matched against each other were so equal that any battle was sure to badly hurt even the victor of the engagement.
Offering hegira was about the smartest thing he could have done. It got the Falcons off Coventry and NOBODY DIED. Exactly how is that not a good way to win?
In reply to:
Bulldog? With Focht, Kell, Kurita et al….how could he fail to come up with a winning plan. The phrase here is riding the coattails of others. Bulldog also had the Jags acting stupidly and a massive numerical advantage.
Jags -are- stupid. I believe the term Vlad Ward used was 'tactically primitive'. And yes, when you want to go to war, you generally want more people on your side than the other side has. Three to one odds to succeed, set down by the old man Hanse himself during the Fourth Succession War.
In reply to:
Serpent? He went. It would have been better for the IS if he didn’t but he did.
He won, but again he had Focht and co there. Besides…there was little tactical planning necessary.
Technical detail: Victor was not a part of Task Force Serpent. He -did- travel with Operation Bulldog's forces to save TFS on Huntress (practically in the nick of time) and fought in the Great Refusal which pretty much nailed the coffin shut on Clan aggression in the classic BT storyline. Yes, he lost his realm; that is a political problem, though, and I've already conceded his inability to handle those.
In reply to:
The Civil War. Commanded by him, with others standing by as he wanted it kept internal….barring the help he got from mercs, the Outland legion, ComStar, etc. He fluffed this one. Several times he got out foxed and out maneuvered by a Lyran general! He almost lost because Omi died. The one major war where he did the planning and he loses the plot entirely.
Fluff is a good word for this block of text. He wound up with several mercenary commands due to Katherine's rather... unique response to dealing with units that wanted to remain neutral; the Vanguard Legion and Snord's Irregulars are good examples of that. ComStar? Victor's 'support' from ComStar consisted primarily of The Prince's Men, who followed him out of loyalty.
The Lyrans DO have some talent in their officer corps, the various nasty allusions to 'social generals' notwithstanding. However, would you care to name this Lyran general? Are we talking about Nondi Steiner? Linda MacDonald?
Yes, he fell apart when Omi died. What a shock. Sorry he wasn't an automated killing machine, but only human. Even command authority doesn't make you immune to emotion, hotshot. And we know what the end result was: Victor still won the war.
--Toasty
"The survivors, not the victors, write the history books."
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Karagin
12/17/02 01:38 AM
68.21.149.237
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Okay...can we now get back to the topic please?????
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
12/17/02 01:46 AM
4.35.174.250
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The conversation can wander, while still staying on subject.
This is what has happened.
This is what always happens.
This is what you always complain about.
Is it a power issue?
Or do you just not know how to go into threaded mode?
Chances are noone else has anything to say on the original subject. If they did, they would post it at the top. :P
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Vapor
12/17/02 02:36 AM
202.128.69.204
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Threaded discussion boards exist so that a discussion can be had on a certain topic, and it is easy to see exactly which post is being replied to. That does not mean that the topic of discussion cannot change, in fact it often changes a lot. However, usually when the topic changes, the subject-line of the posts change to reflect the change in topic. This isn't always the case, however. One point that I would like to make, though, is that this is not the time/place to discuss the pros/cons of threaded vs. flat message boards. If you want to get into a flame war about that, take it into the off-topic message boards. lol
On an aside note... I'm wondering why 95% of your posts, Bob, I see coming as replies to something that Karagin said, and it's usually something at least vaguely insulting to him. Did he steal your lunch in grade school or something? 
"For those about to rock, we salute you." - AC DC
"The evil that can come, from the heart of a man, must be answered in kind 'till it disappears, and we're safe." - Kansas
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TenakaFurey
12/17/02 06:56 AM
195.92.194.12
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In reply to:
Trell – lost to the Clans
Except that everyone was losing to the Clans early on the war. 3030-era tech versus Clan toys? No contest.
-Yes. And at that stage he showed some promise as a leader.
In reply to:
Twycross – almost blew that one because he didn’t conduct thorough reconnaissance. He won only through luck
When you figure out how to conduct comprehensive surveillance through a coriolis storm effect, let the military know. Yes, he got lucky -- but as stated in the books, he'd repositioned his forces so that even IF Kai had failed, it wouldn't have been a rout.
- About a scouting party? Satellite recon? DropShip intel? Neutrino counts? HumInt. Noticing that the Falcons Guards DropShips were still on the launch pads?
Besides which – he was repositioning his forces in readiness for a retreat. His plan might have worked, but from the after battle reports, even Vic seemed to think it wouldn’t have. And what he did to try and save the battle would thus have doomed him and the rest of his command. And what Kai did was totally unplanned.
In reply to:
Alyina – lost
True, though the Jade Falcons were specifically hunting for him and nearly got him, too.
In reply to:
Teniente – he won….but again luck played a part. Instead of having to fight the Clans, he merely had to avoid them and let ComStar and the Clans fight it out between them.
That's not luck. That's called taking advantage of ComStar trying to play dirty. If you want to talk about luck, talk about how he narrowly avoided getting splattered by a Clan Thor during the rescue.
-It was luck. Instead of fighting the clans, he instead had ComStar fight them for him. And, even then, he still blundered into combat. And during a rescue mission too.
In reply to:
3057 – he fumbles the ball with the FWL invasion. True, he was merely acting as First Prince then.
A little more than that. He also had the Skye Rebellion crop up, which badly screwed up his ability to respond to the FWL offensive. How much of the problems he had during his tenure were due to Katherine working behind the scenes, we may never know.
-Very little. The FWL invasion can be laid at the feet of one man. Victor. He should have come clean about Joshua rather than try and save some C-Bills. Also, at that stage, the Skye Rebellion had fizzled out.
In reply to:
Coventry? He talks the Falcons into leaving, passing up a prime opportunity to kill off a Clan with minor losses on his side. Yes…he would have lost the task force he had with him, but overall losses would have been minor. And with border troops already in place, he could have immediately started to liberate the JFOZ.
Up till this point I could understand (albeit vigorously disagree with) your statements.
But by saying this, I wonder if you even -read- Malicious Intent. Let me reiterate what was specifically stated: the Jade Falcons had eight Galaxies of those scientist-devised warriors out on the playing field, with enough veterans to make any fight ugly. The forces matched against each other were so equal that any battle was sure to badly hurt even the victor of the engagement.
Offering hegira was about the smartest thing he could have done. It got the Falcons off Coventry and NOBODY DIED. Exactly how is that not a good way to win?
-Yes. It got them off Coventry. Good for him. Now –what about the rest of the Alliance? He had an opportunity there to wipe out a good portion of the Falcon Touman and he refused to do so, even though it would allow him to drive the Falcons out of the IS. And why did he refuse to do this? Because the fight *would* get ugly. He could not make a tough choice, and left it to Adam Steiner to clean up his mess ten years later. By refusing to destroy – and those Galaxies were a huge chunk of the Falcons Touman so destroy is the right word – he condemned billions to life under Falcons rule and by refusing to destroy the Falcons when they were weak, he guaranteed another war with them in the future. When they were strong.
So, yes. Things would have gotten ugly. But he would lose just a few regiments. The Falcons would lose everything. And the LA would be able to begin liberation of the JFOZ.
The outcome of the Trial on Coventry thus would not matter. The Falcons would be finished just as long as he fought. But, he limited himself to a short term goal. He did succeed at it, but not an any thanks due to any military skill on his part.
In reply to:
Bulldog? With Focht, Kell, Kurita et al….how could he fail to come up with a winning plan. The phrase here is riding the coattails of others. Bulldog also had the Jags acting stupidly and a massive numerical advantage.
Jags -are- stupid. I believe the term Vlad Ward used was 'tactically primitive'. And yes, when you want to go to war, you generally want more people on your side than the other side has. Three to one odds to succeed, set down by the old man Hanse himself during the Fourth Succession War.
-Yes. But he didn’t show any skill at all as a commander during that conflict. His solution was throw troops at the Jags. Him talking up the Jags as the strongest Crusader Clan in the IS doesn’t help his standing either.
In reply to:
Serpent? He went. It would have been better for the IS if he didn’t but he did.
He won, but again he had Focht and co there. Besides…there was little tactical planning necessary.
Technical detail: Victor was not a part of Task Force Serpent. He -did- travel with Operation Bulldog's forces to save TFS on Huntress (practically in the nick of time) and fought in the Great Refusal which pretty much nailed the coffin shut on Clan aggression in the classic BT storyline. Yes, he lost his realm; that is a political problem, though, and I've already conceded his inability to handle those.
-No. The Great Refusal was, technically, a mistake since it opened up the door for every single Clan to attack the IS when and how it chose without referring to the Grand Council. That they didn’t was not due to any plan of Victors.
Him going was a poor choice in any case.
In reply to:
The Civil War. Commanded by him, with others standing by as he wanted it kept internal….barring the help he got from mercs, the Outland legion, ComStar, etc. He fluffed this one. Several times he got out foxed and out maneuvered by a Lyran general! He almost lost because Omi died. The one major war where he did the planning and he loses the plot entirely.
Fluff is a good word for this block of text. He wound up with several mercenary commands due to Katherine's rather... unique response to dealing with units that wanted to remain neutral; the Vanguard Legion and Snord's Irregulars are good examples of that. ComStar? Victor's 'support' from ComStar consisted primarily of The Prince's Men, who followed him out of loyalty.
- Yes. The point is that by accepting outside help, he was being a bit hypocritical by saying he wanted to keep it an internal affair. Apparently he feels its OK to accept such help when its done out of loyalty to him, but not if accepting it would bring the war to a quicker end.
The Lyrans DO have some talent in their officer corps, the various nasty allusions to 'social generals' notwithstanding. However, would you care to name this Lyran general? Are we talking about Nondi Steiner? Linda MacDonald?
-Esteban for one. I could rattle off a few more but you’ve accepted the point.
Yes, he fell apart when Omi died. What a shock. Sorry he wasn't an automated killing machine, but only human. Even command authority doesn't make you immune to emotion, hotshot. And we know what the end result was: Victor still won the war.
- Yes. But again, not through skill.
What Vics career shows is that he is not an able general. He is not an able strategist. He is a fair tactician. He is capable of commanding a battalion - but has yet to show any real ability with anything larger. He is a very poor politician. He is nice. He is a bit of a dunce at PR. He is an excellent Mech pilot.
But, most apparent of all, he is lucky.
Now, while some would say its better to be lucky than good, it’s a pity the “Karma backlash” hits those around Victor.
EJL
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Karagin
12/17/02 08:18 AM
68.21.149.231
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Please take the Victor Bashing to PMs or to email, it has NOTHING to do with this thread.
I have asked nicely. Please this thread is about the Star League. It is NOT about Victor.
Both you have had your say and neither of you agree on this so please DROP IT and let's go back to talking about the Star League...please.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Warner_Doles
12/17/02 08:39 AM
206.27.40.58
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Hey one thing you have to realize here. Bob and Karagin have this love hate relationship. They Love to hate each other!
Try as Karagin may he is not a moderator and the guys will go where they want. These are discussion boards for just that. Discussions. The topic originally posted was addressed the posters found another subject more interesting and they are addressing it. Happens all the time no matter if the Posting Police say stop or not!   
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Toastrider
12/17/02 10:31 AM
172.144.187.17
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Tenaka, when you lie through your teeth it tends to undermine all your arguments. To wit:
In reply to:
Yes. It got them off Coventry. Good for him. Now –what about the rest of the Alliance? He had an opportunity there to wipe out a good portion of the Falcon Touman and he refused to do so, even though it would allow him to drive the Falcons out of the IS. And why did he refuse to do this? Because the fight *would* get ugly. He could not make a tough choice, and left it to Adam Steiner to clean up his mess ten years later. By refusing to destroy – and those Galaxies were a huge chunk of the Falcons Touman so destroy is the right word – he condemned billions to life under Falcons rule and by refusing to destroy the Falcons when they were weak, he guaranteed another war with them in the future. When they were strong.
So, yes. Things would have gotten ugly. But he would lose just a few regiments. The Falcons would lose everything. And the LA would be able to begin liberation of the JFOZ.
Fifty percent casualties minimum for the winner is 'a few regiments'? Tenaka, I think you should take some advice. Go back, read Malicious Intent, and then return to the discussion.
As stated in the book, 'The only scenarios that appeared the least bit hopeful were ones in which the Falcons made hideous mistakes and the coalition forces somehow managed to exploit them perfectly.'
Not to mention that some of those coalition forces did not belong to Victor, technically; the Knights of the Inner Sphere, the Harloc Raiders (Capellans), and the Eleventh Lyran Guards came in only under the coalition banner. I suppose you would be happier if he'd gotten all those troops killed fighting an equally powerful force.
In reply to:
The outcome of the Trial on Coventry thus would not matter. The Falcons would be finished just as long as he fought. But, he limited himself to a short term goal. He did succeed at it, but not an any thanks due to any military skill on his part.
A great deal of his troops would be DEAD as the result of any victory. Tell me, do you know what a Pyrrhic victory is?
Short term victory? Well, I suppose so. But consider this: the concept of the coalition force on Coventry led to the re-establishment of the Star League, and the destruction of Clan Smoke Jaguar, and eventually the Great Refusal. Works for me.
Tenaka, frankly, I'm totally disappointed in you. I thought you had more sense than this. I don't know what your problem is, but I think you need to go back and re-read the source material before you try and tell me (or anyone else, for that matter) about how 'bad' Victor is.
"The survivors, not the victors, write the history books."
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ChalengerII
12/17/02 01:04 PM
62.254.0.4
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In reply to:
But, most apparent of all, he is lucky.
TenajaFurey do you know what seperates the good generals and the truely great generals.
Luck
Challenger
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Karagin
12/17/02 01:33 PM
68.21.149.135
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You are correct I am not a moderator and neither are you. And seeing how I did start the thread I do think that asking folks to take what is now a heated arguement to PMs or email and returning to the topic well with in the rights as poster here. I am not against the topic wondering a bit...but what is going on above is nothing but flames...and add in the extra comments and we have just another flame war...something I was trying to avoid, so forgive me for trying to PREVENT something from happening.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Warner_Doles
12/17/02 02:02 PM
206.27.40.58
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"You are correct I am not a moderator and neither are you."
Correct. I never made any reference to being one. So I'm not sure to what your point in bringing this up for.
"And seeing how I did start the thread I do think that asking folks to take what is now a heated arguement to PMs or email and returning to the topic well with in the rights as poster here."
Hmm.. Heated argument? Where? Between TenakaFurey and Toastman? I don't believe so and neither do they. It appears to be a rather good point and counter-point discussion as this message board is designed for. If you are fearing a heated discussion your options are limited to either not post or ignor it and only engage in those that are staying strictly on topic. Those are the only rights you truly have on a message board of this type when people are posting in the confines of the rules and good discussions.
"but what is going on above is nothing but flames..."
There are none. If you believe so then I recommend hitting the moderator call button to get the attention of Chas or Nic if you feel that is actually happening.
"and add in the extra comments and we have just another flame war..."
Where? Are you saying that because Bob, Vapor or myself make a post is grounds for a Flame war? That's a little pompus don't you think? Sounds like you're trying to censure others from speaking their piece regardless if they stay on topic or not. That's not your right. If you feel a flame war has broke out or you are being attacked (That I haven't seen any where yet) you should hit the moderator call button to have those issues addressed. That is well with in your right.
"something I was trying to avoid, so forgive me for trying to PREVENT something from happening."
Actually with you posting "STOP" "ENOUGH" and "This is MY TOPIC" stay on topic or else... is helping matters. Seriously if you don't like what they are doing, start over or ignore it. So far no one has come even close to being one bit off color or unfriendly. Just the opposit.
I see you are upset and have issues that no one is truly engaging in the topic you posted. It happens. Maybe a new topic in a different variation of what you want. Worth a try. And far better than posting behind people telling them their posts do not qualify and to get on topic or not participate in the tread you've started. Just a friendly suggestion. Please if you are going to less than cordial or condescending in your reply to me please do not waste bandwidth. I have posted here in a respectful manner I expect the same in return. Thank you.
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Karagin
12/17/02 02:22 PM
68.21.149.135
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I think you missed the point, and if the posting between TK and Toastrider aren't pushing for the flames then tell me what are they?
Again, my asking them to let the matter go was to keep things from getting to the point it is at right now, maybe you missed the name calling and all that is going on...
I understand threads will wonder, I didn't expect it to stay on 100%, NOR did I expect a flame war between two folks over Victor's merits...that is what I would like them to stop...it has NOTHING to do with the topic and is turning into nothing more then name calling.
Now if it's wrong for me to make the simple request, then I am sorry, next time I will just write Nic or Chas and have one of them delete the whole thread.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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TenakaFurey
12/17/02 02:43 PM
195.92.168.177
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Tenaka, when you lie through your teeth it tends to undermine all your arguments. To wit:
In reply to:
Yes. It got them off Coventry. Good for him. Now –what about the rest of the Alliance? He had an opportunity there to wipe out a good portion of the Falcon Touman and he refused to do so, even though it would allow him to drive the Falcons out of the IS. And why did he refuse to do this? Because the fight *would* get ugly. He could not make a tough choice, and left it to Adam Steiner to clean up his mess ten years later. By refusing to destroy – and those Galaxies were a huge chunk of the Falcons Touman so destroy is the right word – he condemned billions to life under Falcons rule and by refusing to destroy the Falcons when they were weak, he guaranteed another war with them in the future. When they were strong.
So, yes. Things would have gotten ugly. But he would lose just a few regiments. The Falcons would lose everything. And the LA would be able to begin liberation of the JFOZ.
Fifty percent casualties minimum for the winner is 'a few regiments'? Tenaka, I think you should take some advice. Go back, read Malicious Intent, and then return to the discussion.
As stated in the book, 'The only scenarios that appeared the least bit hopeful were ones in which the Falcons made hideous mistakes and the coalition forces somehow managed to exploit them perfectly.'
Not to mention that some of those coalition forces did not belong to Victor, technically; the Knights of the Inner Sphere, the Harloc Raiders (Capellans), and the Eleventh Lyran Guards came in only under the coalition banner. I suppose you would be happier if he'd gotten all those troops killed fighting an equally powerful force.
- Yes…I have acknowledged that the troops he had on world would be mauled. Possibly even defeated. They would almost certainly sustain casualties severe enough to wipe them out as an effective force.
What is not understood is that these were not the only troops available to Victor. He had nearly a hundred more Mech regiments alone in the FC and several times that in conventional forces again. In short, those losses, terrible as they would be, would be acceptable for the end result. The destruction of a Clan and the liberation of the JFOZ.
As for him being in command of other nations troops…they were on Coventry with the expectation of fighting…even against those odds. The other leaders had agreed to this. The units expected to fight. And, even if they had not….his responsibility was to his people. If using foreign troops helped free them, he should not balk at that.
So, yes. It would have been a terrible battle. I am not denying this. What I am saying is that it would have been worthwhile. The end result would have been a gutted Falcon Clan and the liberation of much of the JFOZ.
So, for him…victory was assured. He would lose a few regiments. Those he had with him. The vast majority of his army would be safe.
In reply to:
The outcome of the Trial on Coventry thus would not matter. The Falcons would be finished just as long as he fought. But, he limited himself to a short term goal. He did succeed at it, but not an any thanks due to any military skill on his part.
A great deal of his troops would be DEAD as the result of any victory. Tell me, do you know what a Pyrrhic victory is?
-Yes. In this case, it wouldn’t apply. Because the majority of Victors troops would be alive, while the majority of the Falcons troops would be dead. There is no getting around that conclusion.
True, the majority of Victors troops on world would have been casualties. But he limited himself to a very short term goal. He succeeded at it. That does not excuse his mistake.
Short term victory? Well, I suppose so. But consider this: the concept of the coalition force on Coventry led to the re-establishment of the Star League, and the destruction of Clan Smoke Jaguar, and eventually the Great Refusal. Works for me.
- And as a future he hadn’t even considered at the time – or shouldn’t have – that should have played no part in his strategy.
EJL
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Bob_Richter
12/17/02 04:24 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>On an aside note... I'm wondering why 95% of your posts, Bob, I see coming as replies to something that Karagin said, and it's usually something at least vaguely insulting to him. Did he steal your lunch in grade school or something? <<<
No, I'd give you the real reason, but I'm afraid it would be seen by this board's wonderful moderator (I really do mean that, Nic) as a Personal Attack.
I really don't hate Karagin. I just get tired of his antics from time to time. And I don't Sarna as much as I used to.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
12/17/02 04:32 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>What is not understood is that these were not the only troops available to Victor. He had nearly a hundred more Mech regiments alone in the FC and several times that in conventional forces again. In short, those losses, terrible as they would be, would be acceptable for the end result. The destruction of a Clan and the liberation of the JFOZ.<<<
Is that, while the Federated Commonwealth (including the rebellious "Lyran Alliance") may have some TWO HUNDRED Regiments and RCTs, and while the loss of some eight to ten of them may not seem significant by comparison, the Federated Commonwealth has some SIX HUNDRED worlds, all of which get slightly annoyed if the 'Mech force covering them is withdrawn to cover gaps on the Clan Border.
The loss of even a single 'Mech regiment is significant. (an average of three worlds' Mech forces) The loss of TEN would be overwhelming.
When you control that much territory with that few troops, offense is much easier than defense.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Chas
12/17/02 05:34 PM
66.187.4.50
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1: No, they aren't pushing flame war. They're arguing spiritedly, but they aren't attacking one another.
2: You're not wrong for requesting that they return to topic.
3: They're within their rights to ignore you. That's the nature of this bulletin board.
4: If you start a topic that wanders, you can request (NOT DEMAND) that it returns to the original topic. If you're ignored? Start a new thread.
5: The above does NOT mean you can start going around maliciously trying to "poison" threads. We CAN tell the difference.
I hope this clears up any misunderstandings on your part.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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TenakaFurey
12/17/02 05:35 PM
195.92.168.174
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And I accept that.
That, however, didn't stop the FC doing the same for Operation Bulldog.
Plus, you may have noticed, the regiments on world were already slated for combat against the Falcons. Furthermore, it is possibel -liekly even - thta given time - gained through appropraiet stratgey or just wearing down the Falcons -additional troops could be found to reinforce Victors troops.
And yes, I know we are told none were available. Its still my opinion -and thats all it is opinion - that even with what he had, Victor would have been better served by fighting. The loss of ten regiments or so was worth the destruction of the Falcons.
And, with the Inner Sphere concentrated on the Clans, IS strife -while not eliminated - was a lesser threat.
Was a mere ten regiments worth it? Especially when he coudl gain so much from the sacrifice? Of course, you are dismissing the on world militias and the professional conventional troops - but so does everyone;-)
EJL
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Bob_Richter
12/17/02 05:47 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>That, however, didn't stop the FC doing the same for Operation Bulldog.<<<
Oh, really?
Name me ten regiments that the FedCom lost during Operation Bulldog.
>>>Plus, you may have noticed, the regiments on world were already slated for combat against the Falcons.<<<
Losing Coventry's entire defense force (a likely outcome) would have been a significant blow in an attack launched by ANY possible invader. Clearly, it would have to be replaced, at full strength, drawing forces from less fortified worlds (who are likely to complain about it.)
Even worse would be the necessary reoccupation of the Falcon OZ worlds, the obvious conclusion of this line of thought.
>>>And yes, I know we are told none were available. Its still my opinion -and thats all it is opinion - that even with what he had, Victor would have been better served by fighting. The loss of ten regiments or so was worth the destruction of the Falcons.<<<
The (almost inevitable) loss of Coventry (an important production world.) and the Jade Falcon OZ to the Wolves was NOT. Those were ALSO outcomes of fighting there. But you hadn't considered that.
>>>Of course, you are dismissing the on world militias and the professional conventional troops - but so does everyone;-)<<<
I'm not. I'm talking only about 'Mech forces. 'Mechs, in this case, are the money of politics. Noone cares about conventional regiments.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Nightward
12/17/02 06:02 PM
211.26.1.97
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As far as I remember, Victor offered Hegira to the Falcons because he knew the Wolves were in position to take their worlds if they didn't retreat. Marthe was trapped on Coventry unless Hegira was offered.
Think about what would have happened if they *HAD* fought there. The pride and joy of several Houses wouldd have been smashed, as would the Falcons. The Wolves and Steel Vipers would have glutted themselves on Jade Falcon worlds. The Vipers probably would have been happy to stay where they were, but I can garuantee that Vladimir would have kept going. We've seen what Vladimir was able to do with his shattered Wolves with what he had available to him. IMagine if he had also Absorbed what was left of Clan Jade Falcon and taken their worlds and resources as well.
Not a pleasant image, eh?
Anyway, I think you have moved a bit far afield here. The thread's topic was about dissolving the Star League, not the virtues of Victor Ian Steiner-Davion.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Karagin
12/17/02 07:24 PM
68.21.149.50
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I am glad you can tell the difference...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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TenakaFurey
12/17/02 09:19 PM
195.92.194.14
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Name me ten regiments that the FedCom lost during Operation Bulldog.
-None. The Jags out up a real poor showing.
But Vic went in expecting to get really badly mauled.
The (almost inevitable) loss of Coventry (an important production world.) and the Jade Falcon OZ to the Wolves was NOT. Those were ALSO outcomes of fighting there. But you hadn't considered that.
-I did. The troops to take advantage of the Falcons loss were already present. They were there guarding the border. Then add in the WIE and the ARDC....
And, while some losses to other Clans could be expected, many worlds would be liberated.
EJL
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TenakaFurey
12/17/02 09:22 PM
195.92.194.14
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The (almost inevitable) loss of Coventry (an important production world.) and the Jade Falcon OZ to the Wolves was NOT. Those were ALSO outcomes of fighting there. But you hadn't considered that.
-No...that was why the Falcons accepted. The Wolves, in turn, were in no position to take any worlds from the Falcons. Even ten years later they still cannot hold onto all. Absorbing the Falcons was not a possibility - they would have fought and caused more damage.
At best, he would end up even, but with his forces spead out even more.
EJL
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Nightward
12/18/02 06:33 AM
211.26.4.192
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Tenaka, have you even read the books?
If you had, you would note that the vast majority of the Jade Falcons were on Coventry. They had *NO* troops to oppose an attack by the Wolves. Nothing at all. Solhama Infantry units, at the very best, and a few half-trained Cadets, would have been all they could have placed in the path of the Wolf. Even as shattered as the Wolves were back then, they still would have rolled through them. The Falcons could not have defended themselves. At all. No matter how good you may believe the Falcons were, they could not have held off the Wolves without troops.
The troops, if I may reiterate, that were on *COVENTRY*.
The Wolves, and Steel Vipers as soon as they woke up to what was happening, would have glutted themselves on the Jade Falcon Occupation Zone and then Absorbed whatever Falcons were left.
Yes, with the troops on Coventry, Marthe could have held off the Wolves.
But they weren't there. They were on *COVENTRY*.
Which is why Victor offered Hegira, because he knew Marthe would have to accept if she wanted to defend her holdings.
Do you understand now? Victor knew that he could have won the fight on Twycross. But he would have shattered every unit he bought with him in so doing. And then Vladimir Ward and Perigard Zalman would have taken up where the Falcons left off. Or, he could allow Marthe to retreat, to keep the Wolves tied up (and thus preventing them from attacking his realm), and not loose any more lives in a stupid, senseless fight.
Hmmm. Let me do the math there. Destroy ten Regiments or more wholesale, and kill the Falcons. The Wolves and Vipers take up where the Falcons left off. Or, no lives lost, the Falcons retreat and keep the other Clans occupied. Uhhhhh...
You'll forgive me for my condescending tone and constant repition. All I've seen of you in this thread is mindless Victor-bashing (and hey, that's fine. Not everyone likes Vicotr, and not everyone has to like Victor), and poorly constructed arguments that basically amount to midless rants. Take a look at the big picture instead of attacking a single character.
And at least listen to what other people have to say.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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TenakaFurey
12/18/02 09:09 AM
195.92.168.176
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Tenaka, have you even read the books?
-Yes.
If you had, you would note that the vast majority of the Jade Falcons were on Coventry. They had *NO* troops to oppose an attack by the Wolves. Nothing at all. Solhama Infantry units, at the very best, and a few half-trained Cadets, would have been all they could have placed in the path of the Wolf. Even as shattered as the Wolves were back then, they still would have rolled through them. The Falcons could not have defended themselves. At all. No matter how good you may believe the Falcons were, they could not have held off the Wolves without troops.
-No, the Wolves would have had something to fight. The Falcons were rotating troops off Coventry continually. They were using it as training ground. You’re also missing another point. They would have lost troops – troops they could ill afford to lose and gain yet more territory that they could not garrison. They did not have enough to effectively garrison what they did have – yet alone angle for more. Vlads’ move was good….a strategic strike to net a limited amount of worlds. A massive invasion, however, was not possible.
The troops, if I may reiterate, that were on *COVENTRY*.
-A lot of them were. Not all. But enough to make it worthwhile.
Which is why Victor offered Hegira, because he knew Marthe would have to accept if she wanted to defend her holdings.
-But he didn’t even know about the offer. He made it only to avoid bloodshed. He didn’t know whether she would accept or not. And, if Vlad hadn’t made that move, there was a real chance she wouldn’t have. Victor, in other words, was trying to be clever. He let everyone worry about the future fighting and didn’t even tell his commanders that he was going to make the offer.
Do you understand now? Victor knew that he could have won the fight on Twycross. But he would have shattered every unit he bought with him in so doing. And then Vladimir Ward and Perigard Zalman would have taken up where the Falcons left off. Or, he could allow Marthe to retreat, to keep the Wolves tied up (and thus preventing them from attacking his realm), and not loose any more lives in a stupid, senseless fight.
- He would have shattered every unit he had with him, the leaving the zone unguarded enough for his border guards to start moving onto the offensive instead of mere raids. Yes – the other Clans would have taken some worlds. That wouldn’t change the fact that he would have destroyed the Falcons as an effective military force, and pushed them out of the Inner Sphere, while liberating many LA worlds in the process.
The Wolves were not in a position to do anything about it. Ragnar should have been able to tell him that.
Hmmm. Let me do the math there. Destroy ten Regiments or more wholesale, and kill the Falcons. The Wolves and Vipers take up where the Falcons left off. Or, no lives lost, the Falcons retreat and keep the other Clans occupied. Uhhhhh...
-That’s missing the point. The Vipers and Wolves probably would have taken some worlds. How many could the FC/LA have retaken? How many billions would he have freed? How many lives would he have saved by taking action then? Audacity shows what the LA/ARDC/FC and so on was capable of doing. And that was during a Civil War.
You'll forgive me for my condescending tone and constant repetition. All I've seen of you in this thread is mindless Victor-bashing (and hey, that's fine. Not everyone likes Victor, and not everyone has to like Victor), and poorly constructed arguments that basically amount to mindless rants. Take a look at the big picture instead of attacking a single character.
-I do. And I like Victor. I may not show it. I think he’s a swell guy. I also think he’s a moron, a political dunce and has an over inflated sense of importance and competence. His real asset is not skill, or personality. It’s luck.
And at least listen to what other people have to say.
-I do. On occasion, I have even changed my mind
EJL
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Bob_Richter
12/18/02 10:27 AM
4.35.174.250
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>>>None. The Jags out up a real poor showing.
But Vic went in expecting to get really badly mauled.<<<
A worst-case scenario that VASTLY overestimated Jaguar force strength -- and intelligence.
And, actually, Victor only really expected it to TAKE longer. The loss of even a single regiment as an effective combat unit would have been as unexpected in Op: Bulldog as it was in his father's invasion of the Capellan Confederation.
>>>-I did. The troops to take advantage of the Falcons loss were already present. They were there guarding the border. Then add in the WIE and the ARDC....<<<
Those troops, including the WiE and the ARDC, are ACTUALLY NEEDED TO GUARD THE BORDER. The AFFC still (inexplicably) has yet to recover from its losses in Operation Revival.
>>>And, while some losses to other Clans could be expected, many worlds would be liberated.<<<
And the final point not examined: The Inner Sphere forces on Coventry were not large enough for any reasonable projection of destroying the Jade Falcons as an effective force, especially considering the four to five Jade Falcon Galaxies *NOT* present, enough to provide minimal protection of their OZ and homeworld holdings.
The ONLY thing Victor would CERTAINLY have accomplished on Coventry is the loss of a number of 'Mech units. The risk was not worth it.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
12/18/02 10:34 AM
4.35.174.250
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>>>That’s missing the point. The Vipers and Wolves probably would have taken some worlds. How many could the FC/LA have retaken?<<<
A few worlds would have changed hands, and the balance would not have been favorable, just as in Operation Audacity, but the Margin would have been worse. The Jade Falcons were stronger then, and the Steel Vipers were in a position to pounce on ANYONE'S weakness. I would have argued that the Falcons of the time couldn't take the Steel Vipers at the time, and if the FedCom garrisons were so flipping powerful, why not just move in and occupy the territory anyway?
They weren't. The FedCom lacked the power to make any headway against the Falcons/Steel Vipers. Victor knew it. Marthe knew it. Stackpole knew it. Somehow, you missed it.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Toastrider
12/18/02 11:47 AM
172.150.191.120
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You know something's up when Bob Richter, myself, and Nightward all agree on something
--Toasty
"The survivors, not the victors, write the history books."
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TenakaFurey
12/18/02 11:14 PM
195.92.168.177
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At least we can agree that - for all the supposed threat they represented - the Jags put up a real poor show;-)
Those troops, including the WiE and the ARDC, are ACTUALLY NEEDED TO GUARD THE BORDER. The AFFC still (inexplicably) has yet to recover from its losses in Operation Revival.
-But - with the forces on Coventry destroyed or shattered, they could move the border over a bit.....
>>>And, while some losses to other Clans could be expected, many worlds would be liberated.<<<
And the final point not examined: The Inner Sphere forces on Coventry were not large enough for any reasonable projection of destroying the Jade Falcons as an effective force, especially considering the four to five Jade Falcon Galaxies *NOT* present, enough to provide minimal protection of their OZ and homeworld holdings.
-You're right. They woudln't have been able to destroy the entire Falcon Touamn. They were large enough to shatter the Galaxies on world - this was the point behind Victors dilemma.
So he had the opportunity to destroy/shatter the Falcons Touman and the troops in place to take advantage of it. The FC losses would have been bad, but they were not not recoverable losses.
Had he fought, it is conceivable that a mobile strategy could have bought the necessary time for reinforcements to arrive. Or thta, had he communiacted the number of troops onw orld to Phelan or someone else, they could have taken steps - the WiE were held because they feared a Falcon trap. WIth the majority of them on Coventry, they could move, both to aid Victor and liberate the JFOZ.
Had he fought, Victor was in a classic no-lose situation. The Falcons were in a no-win situation if they fought. The losses that they would absorb fighting Victor would have destroyed them - and that was the crux of their dilemma.
Victor knew they were weak. He knew they were desperate. He knew they had just fought the Refusal War and had suffered terrible losses. He was being advised by Ragnar. So he knew all of this.
And he let them go.
EJL
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Nightward
12/19/02 04:10 AM
210.50.60.169
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Ye Gods 
I dunno. It seems Tenaka seems bent on his revisionist, pro-Katherine version of events. I give up.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Bob_Richter
12/19/02 01:22 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>But - with the forces on Coventry destroyed or shattered, they could move the border over a bit.....<<<
The AFFC would have needed the forces THEY had on Coventry to move the border.
If the eight galaxies on Coventry had mysteriously ceased to exist (with no losses for the AFFC,) there might have been SOME positive motion on that front, but under the circumstances you describe it is unthinkable.
>>>They were large enough to shatter the Galaxies on world - this was the point behind Victors dilemma.<<<
They were NOT large enough to shatter the Galaxies on world. They were barely large enough to DEFEND themselves from eight Galaxies, to say nothing of ATTACKING them.
>>>WIth the majority of them on Coventry, they could move, both to aid Victor and liberate the JFOZ.<<<
Which would amount to a Steel Viper trap, as the Vipers came rolling over the laughable garrisons they would leave on any liberated worlds. The Wolves could perhaps reinforce Victor, but they had only two Galaxies. Enough to swing the balance toward victory, but not enough to change the essential nature of the battle.
>>>Had he fought, Victor was in a classic no-lose situation. <<<
Had he fought, Victor would be dead or a bondsman, Katherine Steiner-Davion would be the LEGITIMATE ruler of a united Federated Commonwealth, and the Steel Vipers would have won their war with the Jade Falcons. Not much changes.
>>>And he let them go.<<<
He couldn't have stopped them from going. Any effort to do so would have been futile, and would only have made the situation worse.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
12/19/02 01:23 PM
4.35.174.250
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Quite.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Nightmare
12/19/02 02:15 PM
80.222.92.246
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>He couldn't have stopped them from going. Any effort to do so would have been futile, and would only have made the situation worse.
Just out of curiosity, why did the Chartreuse Pelicans find it desirable to accept Hegira if they could just pack up and leave at will? It`s certainly not dishonorable to skip a fight if there`s something more important to do? Like defending your present holdings instead of adding new ones.
Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
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TenakaFurey
12/19/02 02:37 PM
195.92.168.172
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The AFFC would have needed the forces THEY had on Coventry to move the border.
-Not really - the forces they had in place to hold the JF border - which were still there - as well as those in the ARDC and of the WiE were available for that operation.
Especially with a lot of the Falcons units destroyed or shattered on Coventry.
Which would amount to a Steel Viper trap, as the Vipers came rolling over the laughable garrisons they would leave on any liberated worlds. The Wolves could perhaps reinforce Victor, but they had only two Galaxies.
-If the forces ont he border were enough to hold off the Vipers previously, why would that change? Especially since the ARDC had been reinforced with anti-Katie units and the WiE. Yes...some worlds would undoubtedly fall to the Vieprs...and others to the Wolves. But the LA could have liberated many of its worlds.
>>>Had he fought, Victor was in a classic no-lose situation. <<<
Had he fought, Victor would be dead or a bondsman, Katherine Steiner-Davion would be the LEGITIMATE ruler of a united Federated Commonwealth, and the Steel Vipers would have won their war with the Jade Falcons. Not much changes.
-The status of Victor losing or being a bondsman is difficult to determine. The forces arrayed against each other were equal in strength. The "winner" as such would thus be difficult to determine.
What is beyond a doubt is that Victor had a situation where the Falcons could not withdraw without proving themselves weak and thus open to predation. And he knew that. Had he fought the Falcon units would have been shattered no matter who won the battle. Wiht the rihgt timing, he could even ahve captured many of the Falcons JumpShips -with the result that he would for a time strand what was left.
>>>And he let them go.<<<
He couldn't have stopped them from going. Any effort to do so would have been futile, and would only have made the situation worse.
-He actually gave them the only way out that existed. Had they merely retreated, then they would prove themselves weak to the other Clans. That was a large reason behind Coventry after all. Running was not something they could easily do.
EJL
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NathanKell
12/19/02 03:40 PM
67.86.58.8
|
What seems to me to be somewhat missing in this discussion is that this is not some one-house-is-as-bad-as-another territory grab. This is LIBERATION.
Victor wants to liberate his people from Katherine--but not Clan slavery?
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Nightward
12/19/02 05:13 PM
202.138.17.182
|
Uhhh...
The Clans aren't as bad as eeryone made out. Yes, the Jaguars were brutal, but the Falcons were much gentler, and the Wolves and Bears the best of all towards their captured citizens. We have had our discussion about the Clan caste systems before, and basically: there is no diference between the Clans and the Great Houses. Civilians of the Clans have less access to cutting-edge civilian technologies, but have access to Star League-level medical care and excellent education etc etc etc. If anything, many civilians would have been better of amongst the Clans.
If Katherine had really been serious about getting her worlds and people back, she could have done so. The LCAF wasn't that bad, so they could have re-taken a few worlds, but she was too hell-bent on taking the Federated Commonwealth for herself. Criticising Victor for not doing so makes no sense, as he would have had to use the Lyran Commonwealth- the very nation he was EXILED from, as a staging area, and bought Federated Suns troops- TROOPS BARRED FROM ENTERING THE REALM- with him to do so.
So he'd have been damned if he did, and he's damned because he didn't?
You can't have it both ways.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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NathanKell
12/19/02 09:00 PM
67.86.58.8
|
We have indeed.
Though I can't bear not taking the opportunity: "but have access to Star League-level medical care and excellent education." The latter I can't take issue with (as, lacking WoK, I don't know any better); but the former is blatantly untrue: why do laborers have a life expectancy less than half the average SL citizen (50 vs 120) if this is true?
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
TenakaFurey
12/19/02 09:21 PM
195.92.168.171
|
We don't know. Access to even 20th Century medicine and technology should push the average life expectancy much higher.
So:
Either the figures are right,and for some reason, the Clans do have a low average life expectancy.
Or:
Its yet another example of Phelan getting his figures wrong.
Unfortunately, until we knwo otherwise,w e have to assume him correct.
On the plus side, the castes don't have access to SL tech medical knowlegde. They have access to Clan level medical technology. Which makes the life expectancy even stranger, even though the Clans generally don't waste such knowledge on the old.
EJL
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Nightward
12/20/02 04:09 AM
202.138.17.84
|
Maybe it's because Clan Labourers actually work, wheras Inner Spherians don't
It's also possible that the life expectancy is so low because of work accidents and a low number of actual Labourers.
Statistics are weird.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Nightmare
12/20/02 08:25 AM
80.222.92.246
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I suspect they don`t use that medical knowledge on someone who won`t be fully healed. Unless it`s someone who does most of his work by thinking, of course. Crippled labourers are probably expected to kill themselves so they don`t burden the clan.
Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
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Bob_Richter
12/20/02 08:26 AM
4.35.174.250
|
>>>-Not really - the forces they had in place to hold the JF border - which were still there - as well as those in the ARDC and of the WiE were available for that operation.<<<
Not really. They were needed for the jobs they were already doing. Planets don't cease needing a defense force because a handful of Jade Chickens get a little chewed up.
>>>-If the forces ont he border were enough to hold off the Vipers previously, why would that change?<<<
Two words: Force Density. If you move those units forward, they lose Density. If you don't, you don't gain ground. Make up your mind.
>>>The forces arrayed against each other were equal in strength.<<<
Nonsense.
>>>The "winner" as such would thus be difficult to determine.
<<<
That casualties would be high on the AFFC side in either case is not in doubt. The casualty rate among commanding officers is something higher than that of men of lower ranks.
>>>-He actually gave them the only way out that existed. Had they merely retreated, then they would prove themselves weak to the other Clans.<<<
The Clans know how to accept a loss of Honor for a gain of Glory. Beating off the Wolves actually had more importance to the Jade Falcons' status among the Clans than did holding Coventry.
In other words, they would have lost MORE had they NOT retreated, Hegira or no.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
12/20/02 08:27 AM
4.35.174.250
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>>>Just out of curiosity, why did the Chartreuse Pelicans find it desirable to accept Hegira if they could just pack up and leave at will? <<<
One loses LESS honor by accepting Hegira than by Just Leaving.
AFFC aerospace forces were (by far) insufficient to handle the aerospace component of Eight Falcon Galaxies.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
12/20/02 08:30 AM
4.35.174.250
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>>>why do laborers have a life expectancy less than half the average SL citizen (50 vs 120) if this is true? <<<
Suffice it to say that Geriatrics is not a specialty of Clan Medicine.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Toastrider
12/20/02 10:51 AM
172.166.139.34
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In reply to:
One loses LESS honor by accepting Hegira than by Just Leaving.
Technically incorrect. Hegira allows a defeated opponent to withdraw with -no- loss of face or honor. The Jade Falcons could not withdraw because they had already bid their forces; to withdraw in the face of the Inner Sphere force would have made them dezgra.
By offering them hegira, Victor basically opened a door for the Falcons to leave with no further bloodshed.
Now, if you want something to -really- give you a headache, consider this: several folks have noted Terra's manufacturing abilities. If this is the case, explain why Precentor Lisa Koenigs-Cober told both the Precentor Martial and the Primus that Terra was only useful as a symbol. (Malicious Intent)
She didn't know about the factories? Well, possibly, but extremely thin since Lisa was the commander of the Terran garrisons. And certainly either the Precentor Martial or the Primus should have corrected her. If she did know and lied, to what end? The probability that she was a WoB sleeper agent is pretty low, and, again, if she had professed ignorance certainly the Primus and Focht should have said -something-.
Tsk tsk tsk.
--Toasty
"The survivors, not the victors, write the history books."
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Bloodrider
12/21/02 01:30 AM
205.188.209.77
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>Now, if you want something to -really- give you a headache, consider this: several folks have noted Terra's manufacturing abilities. If this is the case, explain why Precentor Lisa Koenigs-Cober told both the Precentor Martial and the Primus that Terra was only useful as a symbol. (Malicious Intent)<
Possibly because Comstar had not yet reopened all of Terra's manufacturing plants, which WoB did according to the fluff in TRO 3067?
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room..." -from Dr. Strangelove
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TenakaFurey
12/21/02 11:39 AM
195.92.194.16
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Trouble is, even that would only go so far.
Impelmenting rudimentary safety features woudl cut down ona lot of damger, and evn simple health care would mean a relatively long life for many.
And yet...for some reason, Clan life expectancy is very low.
EJL
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TenakaFurey
12/21/02 11:40 AM
195.92.194.16
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Geriatrics - no.
But basic health care should be within the Clans reach.
EJL
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TenakaFurey
12/21/02 11:54 AM
195.92.194.16
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Not really. They were needed for the jobs they were already doing. Planets don't cease needing a defense force because a handful of Jade Chickens get a little chewed up.
-You mean, launching raids was more important than holding the territory? No, their job was to retake the territory. Victor had a chance to allow them to do that relatively painlessly by ensuring that reinforcements would not readily available, and the garrison relatively weak.
Shifting troops to other purpsoses like that has never been a problem for him at any othe time. Thus why would this be different?
Two words: Force Density. If you move those units forward, they lose Density. If you don't, you don't gain ground. Make up your mind.
-The border had been recently reinforced with units dissatisfied with Ktaies rule and the WIE. Force desnity was thus not a major concern. They could reduce it to 3056 levels and still retake worlds, engage in a number of strong raiding actions, and still have better defences.
Whats more, their defensive lines would have shrunk, and they would really ned to concentrate on the Viper border with the Wolves as weak as they were.
>>>The forces arrayed against each other were equal in strength.<<<
Nonsense.
-Why do you say this/ The fact that they were even matched in a ecntral theme in the end game of that plot. It was the crux of the dilemmas of both sides. Each side could potentially win, but would take grievous damage in doing so. The difference was that Victor didn't have a majority of his army with him.
>>>-He actually gave them the only way out that existed. Had they merely retreated, then they would prove themselves weak to the other Clans.<<<
The Clans know how to accept a loss of Honor for a gain of Glory. Beating off the Wolves actually had more importance to the Jade Falcons' status among the Clans than did holding Coventry.
In other words, they would have lost MORE had they NOT retreated, Hegira or no.
-No. ey coudln't retreat without a major loss of honour and a show of weakness. They would be admitting they could not take on the Inner Spere. That in turn would open them up to predation from the other clans and weaken them further.
So, they could not just retreat. It would have been almost as bad as fighting. Only by accepting hegira could they leave.
The Wolves threat helped ensure they did accept it, but that was all.
EJL
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Toastrider
12/22/02 02:53 AM
172.139.252.192
|
In reply to:
Possibly because Comstar had not yet reopened all of Terra's manufacturing plants, which WoB did according to the fluff in TRO 3067?
It's still, to be blunt, a bad screwup, Bloodrider. Koenigs-Cober said that other than as a symbol, Terra wasn't of any usefulness to ComStar. That's just -crap-. If there was that much manufacturing capacity, even idle, they should have said SOMETHING -- I mean, this is why fights were picked over Hesperus II and Kathil, right?
And even if Lisa didn't know about those plants, the Primus and the Precentor Martial should have. *sigh*
--Toasty
"The survivors, not the victors, write the history books."
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Nightmare
12/22/02 08:20 AM
80.222.92.246
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Well, they like to conserve resources, right? They probably don`t care very much for things such as worker safety if it looks too expensive. Scummy third class workers can always be replaced, costly air purifying equpment on the other hand...Can be much better put to use in a new Trinary of OmniMechs
'Poisonous fumes, you say? And filters would cost billions of credits every year? Just use third class workers then. This mech factory is too important to close down.'
Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
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TenakaFurey
12/22/02 03:44 PM
195.92.194.18
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As I said, even rudimentary safeguards would have a very measurable effect. Its when you try to get that last bit of safety that costs skyrocket. For instance, we know that worker safety is thought of - workers making use of equipment is mentioned several times. And we are told that workers receive helath care untilt hyey are no longer valuable - in short, if its cheaper to replace him they will. But given training costs, that could mean they receive a very good health package.
In short, like so much else in WoK, its a bit of info that makes little sense but which we have to accept as true.
EJL
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Bloodrider
12/22/02 04:09 PM
152.163.189.136
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I interpret it this way: the Clan takes care of those who are productive, and once you're no longer productive then you are left to fend for yourself. I seriously doubt that the Clans have retirement benefits or anything similar, because maintaining the helath and life of someone who is no longer useful to the Clan would not benefit the Clan.
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room..." -from Dr. Strangelove
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NathanKell
12/22/02 04:18 PM
67.86.58.8
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Actually, it does: morale effects, a reason to like (and therefore work harder for) the clan you're part of.
Just another case of clanners wasting resources in the name of not wasting them. 
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Bloodrider
12/23/02 01:13 AM
64.12.96.167
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That would make sense if the whole Clans thing was logical. But I'm a Clanner and even I admit to the illogic of the Clans (Mr. Spock would be horrified imho)
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room..." -from Dr. Strangelove
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Bob_Richter
12/25/02 01:29 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>You mean, launching raids was more important than holding the territory? No, their job was to retake the territory.<<<
Their job was TO HOLD THE TERRITORY THEY ALREADY HAD. Retaking territory would only have increased their vulnerability by dilluting their strength.
>>>They could reduce it to 3056 levels and still retake worlds, engage in a number of strong raiding actions, and still have better defences.<<<
3056 levels would not have been sufficient to hold the Vipers at bay, even as they were not in 3056.
>>>Why do you say this/ The fact that they were even matched in a ecntral theme in the end game of that plot.<<<
The BELIEF that they were evenly matched was the central theme of VICTOR'S thoughts on the matter.
He was wrong.
Noone denies that the Jade Falcons would have taken serious losses and been delayed far longer than was acceptable, but where were the FIFTY regiments (hint: not on Coventry) that would have been required to have a serious chance of wiping out the Jade Falcons? Eight Galaxies is no tiny force, especially not overloaded Jade Falcon Galaxies.
>>>No. ey coudln't retreat without a major loss of honour and a show of weakness. <<<
Which would be immediately counterbalanced by their show of STRENGTH against the Wolves and any other challengers. Accepting Victor's Hegira allowed Marthe to withdraw without a loss of honor, but she could have withdrawn without it.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
12/25/02 01:30 PM
4.35.174.250
|
...in a society that regimented.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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TenakaFurey
12/25/02 08:17 PM
195.92.194.13
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>>>You mean, launching raids was more important than holding the territory? No, their job was to retake the territory.<<<
Their job was TO HOLD THE TERRITORY THEY ALREADY HAD. Retaking territory would only have increased their vulnerability by dilluting their strength.
-A strength they wouldn’t have needed with the Falcons gone or weakened. Their goal was however, liberation. They want to free their people form Clan tyranny. Victor had a chance to severely weaken a Clans Touman and so begin this process.
>>>They could reduce it to 3056 levels and still retake worlds, engage in a number of strong raiding actions, and still have better defences.<<<
3056 levels would not have been sufficient to hold the Vipers at bay, even as they were not in 3056.
- So, the forces that the FC had arrayed to hold two Clans at bay were not enough to hold back one? Even though the events of 3057 had seen them reinforced?
>>>Why do you say this? The fact that they were even matched in a central theme in the end game of that plot.<<<
The BELIEF that they were evenly matched was the central theme of VICTOR'S thoughts on the matter.
He was wrong.
Noone denies that the Jade Falcons would have taken serious losses and been delayed far longer than was acceptable, but where were the FIFTY regiments (hint: not on Coventry) that would have been required to have a serious chance of wiping out the Jade Falcons? Eight Galaxies is no tiny force, especially not overloaded Jade Falcon Galaxies.
- They were evenly matched. Even Marthe thought so. Normally, Victors forces may have been at a slight disadvantage – however, Marthes force also included training units which made the fight even. No, Victor regiments, combined with the survivors on world, were enough.
Even so, it is the fact that the Falcons would have taken serious losses that is the point. That campaign, regardless of who “won” the battle would cripple the Clan. Even if Victor decided no to take advantage of the Clans weakness – and he would be foolish not to – he would open the Clan up to predation, and at the very least ensure that they would not be a problems for many, many years. Instead, he seems to have pursued a policy of containment rather than liberation.
>>>No. they couldn’t retreat without a major loss of honour and a show of weakness. <<<
Which would be immediately counterbalanced by their show of STRENGTH against the Wolves and any other challengers. Accepting Victor's Hegira allowed Marthe to withdraw without a loss of honor, but she could have withdrawn without it.
-Yes..show could have withdrawn without it. But she would have retreated from an Inner sphere force with little or no fighting. Thats I not the sort of reputation that could be regained simply by beating up on the Wolves. Instead, it is the sort of reputation that shows weakness and invites challenges and predation by other Clans. While they may be able to fight off such challenges, they would still take heavy losses in doing so. At the very least, that would weaken them further.
EJL
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Nightward
12/25/02 10:34 PM
211.26.1.226
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Victor's task force was made up of a variety of Inner Sphere factional units. Think about that for a moment.
Would *YOU* want to explain to Thomas Marik why you needlessly obliterated his Knights of the Inner Sphere? Or tell Sun-Tzu Liao how you got his Red Lancers (or was it the Harloc Raiders or someone else, I forget now) shattered?
No?
Now, think. You get the premier uniots of another state smahsed. Another state with whom you curently stand at a very tenous peace with.
Doesn't play well, does it?
And think. Victor *KNOWS* Katherine had their mother killed. She then further supplied him with false information, sending him to Coventry understrength in the hopes of getting him killed.
If he had gone in and won, she would have eviscerated him in the media for wasting so many lives, the lives of her hard-working civilians, shattering their families and dreams etc etc etc.
Victor *WAS NOT PREPARED* to fight the kind of battle required to toss the Falcons off Coventry. He could not have done so without calling for reinforcements, and the only ones in position were Katherine's. Think she would have sent them?
No?
Neither do I.
Victor *COULD NOT* have fought well enough on Coventry to justify the loss of life doing so would cause. Added to that are the political concerns. However, he *KNEW* he could force the Falcons off Coventry *AT NO LOSS OF LIFE*.
Are we getting the picture yet?
I have seen you rant and rave throughout this thread. Pay some more attention.
If you are playing a computer game of tactics and you have enough troops to kill off the enemy and thereby claim victory in the mission, you do it. Because that is all you need to do to continue the game.
Real life works a little bit differently. Try to remember that.
If you want to deify Katherine Stener-Davion, buy all means go and doi t. Just leave the rest of us alone. Stop throwing the same, weak arguments at us over and over and over.
I have had enough of this thread. I will not read nor reply to anything further in it. Were I a moderator, I would lock the thread.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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TenakaFurey
12/27/02 12:22 AM
195.92.194.15
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Victor's task force was made up of a variety of Inner Sphere factional units. Think about that for a moment.
Would *YOU* want to explain to Thomas Marik why you needlessly obliterated his Knights of the Inner Sphere? Or tell Sun-Tzu Liao how you got his Red Lancers (or was it the Harloc Raiders or someone else, I forget now) shattered?
No?
Now, think. You get the premier units of another state smahsed. Another state with whom you currently stand at a very tenuous peace with.
Doesn't play well, does it?
Well then, I think the appropriate phrasing would be…”If you didn’t want them getting hurt, you shouldn’t have agreed to let them come here with me to kick some Falcons.”
In short, Victor had “permission” to use those units. And given the rep of the Clans, and what Victor was expecting – up to 6 Galaxies – serious casualties were almost a given. Victors problem was that he couldn’t guarantee a win on Coventry. International relations had nothing to do with it. If they did, those units wouldn’t be there in the first place.
And think. Victor *KNOWS* Katherine had their mother killed. She then further supplied him with false information, sending him to Coventry understrength in the hopes of getting him killed.
If he had gone in and won, she would have eviscerated him in the media for wasting so many lives, the lives of her hard-working civilians, shattering their families and dreams etc etc etc.
Victor *WAS NOT PREPARED* to fight the kind of battle required to toss the Falcons off Coventry. He could not have done so without calling for reinforcements, and the only ones in position were Katherine's. Think she would have sent them?
No?
Neither do I.
- Yes, he wasn’t prepared. Mentally. And, given what his stated aims - the liberation of the Lyran people from Clan domination – he should have attacked. Destroyed the Falcons Touman. “Winning” the battle of Coventry should have been a secondary concern…placed right there after causing as much damage to the falcons and killing as many warriors as he could.
And while the Toumans tied down on Coventry, why not send off a courier or HPG message to Phelan and his troops on the border – something along the lines of “All the Falcons are here.”
Phelan, with this info, would then realize his fears were unfounded and could send some units off to liberate LC worlds and others to help Victor. Victor, meanwhile could organize the media behind him – you the routine…valiant struggle to free our homeland…sacrifice….already numerous systems freed….Falcons took severe casualties……you know the routine, its called PR. It’s also something Vic shouldn’t have been concerned with as he’d “lost” the LA when he gave it to his sister.
Would Katie send reinforcements? She’d really have little choice once word got out. Even if she didn’t, he already had the troops to gut the Falcons. And could call on reinforcements from elsewhere. With the Falcons on Coventry, Phelans reason for holding back would vanish, for example.
Victor *COULD NOT* have fought well enough on Coventry to justify the loss of life doing so would cause. Added to that are the political concerns. However, he *KNEW* he could force the Falcons off Coventry *AT NO LOSS OF LIFE*.
Are we getting the picture yet?
-Yes. What you are saying is that losing the regiments he brought with him was not worth the subsequent liberation of much of much of the JFOZ from Clan rule. That limiting his options to the short term aims of driving the Falcons off Coventry and containing them was more important than destroying the armed forces of a deadly enemy while they were weak and trapped where he actually could destroy them and was this worth more than freeing billions of people who were conquered by the Clans. And you are saying that letting them go to rebuild and attack again when they were stronger was the right thing to do?
I have seen you rant and rave throughout this thread. Pay some more attention.
If you are playing a computer game of tactics and you have enough troops to kill off the enemy and thereby claim victory in the mission, you do it. Because that is all you need to do to continue the game.
Real life works a little bit differently. Try to remember that.
-I do.
But:
Do you deny:
That the Falcons had a very large force on world?
That they were at their weakest in power for a long time?
That, while Victor did not have enough troops to guarantee victory, he did have enough troops to gut the Falcons?
That, with all the forces he had on the border, and the ARDC, and the WiE, he did not have the forces to then eject the Falcons from at least some worlds?
EJL
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masdog5
01/06/03 02:40 PM
205.213.145.101
|
This has become a little long winded, so I plan on making this short.
You assert that Victor's main goal was to free the Lyran people from clan occupation, a very noble goal that could have been easily acheived, or started the process of, if he has engaged the JF Touman on Coventry, correct?
I think the point everyone is trying to make here is that it would have been pointless to engage the Falcons. Even if he had managed to weaken or defeat them, he would have gutted the most elite force assembled, making the job of retaking hte Jade Falcon OZ that much more difficult.
Sure he had the resources of the FedCom to fall back on, but even then, he would have to move a good bulk of his forces to that OZ (after all, he did cause the destruction of several elite regiments belonging to different nations and I doubt they would support his attempt to reclaim his worlds after that), leaving his nation exposed to the predations of Sun Tzu. He might get some support from the Combine, and Katherine would support him just enough to get him killed.
With the JF Touman weakened, there would be other Clans pecking at them in order to gain some IS holdings. Although this would make the job of the liberating force somewhat easier, it would also cause more headaches. Each liberated world would need to be garrisoned with units capable of fighting off any Clan challengers, and in fact, could kick off another round of Clan Invasions since they could see it as the honorless IS warriors breaking hte Truce of Tukkaiyid.
Furthermore, any Lyran action against the JFOZ would weaken their defenses on the Clan Wolf OZ, allowing adventurous Wolf Units to bypass the heavily fortified remains of the FRR and head towards Terra.
The politcal fallout of this would also be heavy. There would be no Star League and no end to the Clan Invasion. Victor would have remained on the throne of the FS.
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TenakaFurey
01/09/03 06:00 PM
195.92.168.177
|
This has become a little long winded, so I plan on making this short.
You assert that Victor's main goal was to free the Lyran people from clan occupation, a very noble goal that could have been easily achieved, or started the process of, if he has engaged the JF Touman on Coventry, correct?
-Basically – yes.
I think the point everyone is trying to make here is that it would have been pointless to engage the Falcons. Even if he had managed to weaken or defeat them, he would have gutted the most elite force assembled, making the job of retaking the Jade Falcon OZ that much more difficult.
-No. He did not assemble the “most elite force assembled”. He went in with what he had available to him and what he was able to scrounge up on the way. Even if he had gutted this “elite” force, the Falcons would also be gutted and the units he had deployed on the border would still be there – untouched and now raiding across an under defended border.
Sure he had the resources of the FedCom to fall back on, but even then, he would have to move a good bulk of his forces to that OZ (after all, he did cause the destruction of several elite regiments belonging to different nations and I doubt they would support his attempt to reclaim his worlds after that), leaving his nation exposed to the predations of Sun Tzu. He might get some support from the Combine, and Katherine would support him just enough to get him killed.
-He was given permission to use those forces against the Clans. I think Sun-Tzu and Marik would have expected casualties. And he was prepared to face up to six Galaxies so he was prepared for heavy losses. Having eight Galaxies on Coventry merely meant a local victory could not be guaranteed and that no matter the outcome, casualties would be heavy.
With the JF Touman weakened, there would be other Clans pecking at them in order to gain some IS holdings. Although this would make the job of the liberating force somewhat easier, it would also cause more headaches. Each liberated world would need to be garrisoned with units capable of fighting off any Clan challengers, and in fact, could kick off another round of Clan Invasions since they could see it as the honorless IS warriors breaking the Truce of Tukayyid.
-No, they couldn’t. The Truce did not involve the Great Houses at all. Furthermore, the forces guarding the border had been sufficient to hold back two clans – the Falcons and Vipers. With the Falcons and Wolves gutted, and the border reinforced by pro-Victor units and CWiE, the forces were there to liberate a number of worlds. The Clans may have gobbled up some falcon holdings, but many others would be there for Victor to free.
Furthermore, any Lyran action against the JFOZ would weaken their defenses on the Clan Wolf OZ, allowing adventurous Wolf Units to bypass the heavily fortified remains of the FRR and head towards Terra.
-No, it wouldn’t.
The political fallout of this would also be heavy. There would be no Star League and no end to the Clan Invasion. Victor would have remained on the throne of the FS.
-So what? That should never have been a consideration of Victor at the time.
EJL
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masdog5
01/09/03 10:33 PM
205.213.145.101
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'-No. He did not assemble the “most elite force assembled”. He went in with what he had available to him and what he was able to scrounge up on the way. Even if he had gutted this “elite” force, the Falcons would also be gutted and the units he had deployed on the border would still be there – untouched and now raiding across an under defended border. '
Ok, I used a bad choice of worlds when i said it had been the most elite force assembled. However, you seem to deny that this force was elite at all when it contained the Knights of the Inner Sphere, one of the few elite units of the FWL, the 1st Genyosha, one of the most feared DCMS units, the Davion Heavy Guards, a priemere FS unit, and all of Wolf's Dragoons, which is probably the most feared IS unit.
If Victor's fighting force had managed to dislodge the Falcons, it would have been heavily damaged. Those units would either have to have been retired or taken off the rolls to rebuild, planning for an invasion would have to commence almost immediately, units and supplies moved into attack positions, and launch the battle before the other clans can start to take territory and the JF watch learns of the invasion.
'-He was given permission to use those forces against the Clans. I think Sun-Tzu and Marik would have expected casualties. And he was prepared to face up to six Galaxies so he was prepared for heavy losses. Having eight Galaxies on Coventry merely meant a local victory could not be guaranteed and that no matter the outcome, casualties would be heavy.'
He may have had permission to use the forces, but as a leader of an empire who hasnt been hurt by the clans, would you support an attack to liberate worlds after your showpiece unit has been reduced to less then 1/3 combat effectiveness?
'Furthermore, any Lyran action against the JFOZ would weaken their defenses on the Clan Wolf OZ, allowing adventurous Wolf Units to bypass the heavily fortified remains of the FRR and head towards Terra.
-No, it wouldn’t. '
If the other nations dont throw in units, where are they going to get the 3:1 ratio they need for a successful invasion?
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TenakaFurey
01/19/03 11:07 PM
195.92.168.175
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'-No. He did not assemble the “most elite force assembled”. He went in with what he had available to him and what he was able to scrounge up on the way. Even if he had gutted this “elite” force, the Falcons would also be gutted and the units he had deployed on the border would still be there – untouched and now raiding across an under defended border. '
Ok, I used a bad choice of worlds when i said it had been the most elite force assembled. However, you seem to deny that this force was elite at all when it contained the Knights of the Inner Sphere, one of the few elite units of the FWL, the 1st Genyosha, one of the most feared DCMS units, the Davion Heavy Guards, a priemere FS unit, and all of Wolf's Dragoons, which is probably the most feared IS unit.
-No. I’m not saying they weren’t elite. Just emphasising that he took with him only what he had available.
If Victor's fighting force had managed to dislodge the Falcons, it would have been heavily damaged. Those units would either have to have been retired or taken off the rolls to rebuild, planning for an invasion would have to commence almost immediately, units and supplies moved into attack positions, and launch the battle before the other clans can start to take territory and the JF watch learns of the invasion.
-Yes. The point is, he would have lost perhaps ten regiments out of two hundred (between the FC and LA), whereas the Falcons would have lost eight out of ten or twelve Galaxies. Numbers depending on the outcome of course, who retreated first and so on. And he already had units on the border. Units who were well equipped, trained and supplied. Who had experience fighting the Clans. And who had been heavily reinforced in the past few months with the arrival of pro-Davion units and CWiE.
'-He was given permission to use those forces against the Clans. I think Sun-Tzu and Marik would have expected casualties. And he was prepared to face up to six Galaxies so he was prepared for heavy losses. Having eight Galaxies on Coventry merely meant a local victory could not be guaranteed and that no matter the outcome, casualties would be heavy.'
He may have had permission to use the forces, but as a leader of an empire who hasnt been hurt by the clans, would you support an attack to liberate worlds after your showpiece unit has been reduced to less then 1/3 combat effectiveness?
-And why exactly should Victor actually care? So long as his people are freed, and his actions won’t be a cause for war (again), why should he care how many casualties the Marik/Capellan troops take? Had they been sued on Coventry. He wouldn’t have needed them because a Bulldog style operation would not really be necessary. The FC/LA could handle it themselves.
EJL
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