masdog5
02/13/03 09:25 AM
205.213.145.33
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Its not the 1950s. Just because they dont have ads out doesnt mean that they arent making money.
Fact: The Internet is changing the way current businesses run.
Fact: Web sites are more influential when it comes to learning about a product then anything now because they can put more information about their products on it.
Ads would be an unnessecary expense if they do the bulk of their advertising on the net, where it is A)relatively cheap(dont try to tell me its not...i know what hosting, domain registration, and site development cost), B) saves money over traditional advertising, and C) is more accessable then anything you could possibly put into a magazine.
If you have a good relationship with your gamestore owner (and I would assume that you do if you are spending quite a bit of money in his shop), he will special order the products for you. No intelligent business owner is going to carry a product just because they see it in a magazine...they will carry it when they know there is a demand for it.
You need to pull your head out of the sand. Start thinking a little and stop being so damn stubborn.
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Bob_Richter
02/13/03 10:04 AM
4.35.174.250
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>>>If nobody reads the magazines, the magazines wouldn't be getting published. Hence, that argument is false.<<<
And yet, I've never so much as met someone who reads any of these magazines. Conversely, everyone I know knows about CBT.
Which, of course, makes the whole idea seem downright silly to me.
>>>Just an FYI, but it doesn't cost a lot of money to put a one-page ad in a magazine.<<<
It costs something, and something is more than nothing.
>>>And that magazine has the potential to reach thousands of people.<<<
With what message, precisely?
Folks know CBT is alive and well if they aren't hiding under a rock. If they are hdiding under a rock, this doesn't seem a very coherent strategy for stopping that behavior.
Ads in magazines do not draw customers for this kind of game. When was the last time you heard of someone drawn into Battletech by a magazine ad? I've never heard it, but maybe you got lucky once or twice.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Vapor
02/13/03 10:06 AM
202.123.139.14
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The only people who FanPro's website is currently catering to is those people who already know about it (and therefore probably already play CBT), and those who have been told about it (and may or may not actually start to play). If you put an ad in a gaming magazine, you will reach several thousand gamers who may or may not already know about CBT, and of those, a fairly good percentage will check out the website (if it is included in the ad). Relying on the website as the only official source of CBT information is limiting it's growth, since the site will only be hit by people who already play, or by those who have been told about it. You can't go by hits to FanPro's site either. God knows, I go there 10-15 times a day alone.
I think FanPro has a good site, and a decent fan-base. However, I also think that if the fan-base is going to grow appreciably in the next few years, they will have to spend a little money on ads in gaming magazines and such. If gamers don't know about CBT, they won't be looking for the site. But if they see an ad in their favorite gaming magazine, they just might check it out.
"For those about to rock, we salute you." - AC DC
"The evil that can come, from the heart of a man, must be answered in kind 'till it disappears, and we're safe." - Kansas
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masdog5
02/13/03 10:12 AM
205.213.145.33
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I'd like to think that, but I think the average reader will gloss over the ads. I never look at the ads in any magazine I read.
The only reason I got hooked on Battletech was the novels(back when Stackpole was writing, anyway...). If they could stop making cookie-cutter books with more than 300 pages, the quality would increase and that would attract more potential fans to the storyline.
The novels were the best thing for the entire product, in my opinion. They should bring them back with some better writing, make them longer, and let them help the franchise.
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Vapor
02/13/03 10:21 AM
202.123.139.14
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In reply to:
And yet, I've never so much as met someone who reads any of these magazines. Conversely, everyone I know knows about CBT.
You can't possibly convince me that you know every gamer in the US. I'm not that gullible.
In reply to:
With what message, precisely?
The ad doesn't have to say much. A picture of a couple 'Mechs firing at each other, maybe a burning city in the background and/or a few tanks near the 'Mechs' feet, a few catchy lines summing up the game, and the URL for the website.
In reply to:
Folks know CBT is alive and well if they aren't hiding under a rock. If they are hdiding under a rock, this doesn't seem a very coherent strategy for stopping that behavior.
You seem to like the term "hiding under a rock." Does it have some kind of special meaning for you?  lol
Anyway, I can tell you from personal experience, that there are exactly three people on the island of Guam who know about CBT (and only two of those people actually play). MW:DA is fairly popular here, but noone's heard of CBT. If they've never heard of it, they're not going to go visit the website. If they saw an ad for CBT, I'm sure that most (if not all) of the people here who play MW:DA would check it out.
In reply to:
Ads in magazines do not draw customers for this kind of game. When was the last time you heard of someone drawn into Battletech by a magazine ad? I've never heard it, but maybe you got lucky once or twice.
The ad is not intended to get someone to jump in and start buying CBT items, a bunch of minis, and start having campaigns. The ad is intended to spark the reader's curiosity, get them to take a look at the website, and then find out what other players think of the game. If they like what they see, and it interests them, then they'll start buying stuff.
"For those about to rock, we salute you." - AC DC
"The evil that can come, from the heart of a man, must be answered in kind 'till it disappears, and we're safe." - Kansas
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Vapor
02/13/03 10:26 AM
202.123.139.14
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I agree. The novels were great. I enjoyed every one that I read, though I can't say that I've read them all.
However, I will say that if a magazine ad has something to it that catches my eye, I'll read it. That's the main pull of magazine ads: there's something there that grabs the reader's attention. I doubt FanPro will feature a pair of scantily-clad blonde twins in an ad for CBT, but I think a picture of two 'Mechs fighting would grab the attention of your average gamer.
"For those about to rock, we salute you." - AC DC
"The evil that can come, from the heart of a man, must be answered in kind 'till it disappears, and we're safe." - Kansas
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Bob_Richter
02/13/03 10:59 AM
4.35.174.250
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>>>You can't possibly convince me that you know every gamer in the US. I'm not that gullible.<<<
Drat, and I was so hoping...
>>>Anyway, I can tell you from personal experience, that there are exactly three people on the island of Guam who know about CBT (and only two of those people actually play). <<<
Wow. How many of the other Guam residents do you suppose read Starlog?
>>>The ad is intended to spark the reader's curiosity, get them to take a look at the website, and then find out what other players think of the game. If they like what they see, and it interests them, then they'll start buying stuff. <<<
Never heard of that happening either...
...then again, things happen all the time I don't know about.
I don't see why all the fuss. Magazine advertisements aren't going to be that valulable, and the game's not going to die for the lack of them.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
02/13/03 11:02 AM
4.35.174.250
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>>>I doubt FanPro will feature a pair of scantily-clad blonde twins in an ad for CBT,<<<
Now, see, there was the REAL value of Natasha Kerensky. Get me a barely-clothed woman in a cooling vest...
...sex won't sell me, but pretty women WILL get my attention.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Vapor
02/13/03 11:18 AM
202.123.139.14
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In reply to:
I don't see why all the fuss. Magazine advertisements aren't going to be that valulable, and the game's not going to die for the lack of them.
If the game doesn't attract new players, the fan-base will grow stagnant, and eventually begin to shrink until it disappears. Word of mouth will only do so much. I could tell everyone I meet about CBT, but I'm not going to waste the effort on people who I know aren't interested.
In reply to:
Wow. How many of the other Guam residents do you suppose read Starlog?
I haven't seen Starlog on Guam, but there are a few other gaming magazines in stores here. And there is a good size group of gamers, too. The store who's owner is currently attempting to find out of his distributors will send him CBT stuff has a large Magic: The Gathering group who plays at the store, and a good size group of MW:DA players. And there's another store that has D&D games all the time, so I know there are a lot of gamers here. Just noone's ever heard of CBT.
"For those about to rock, we salute you." - AC DC
"The evil that can come, from the heart of a man, must be answered in kind 'till it disappears, and we're safe." - Kansas
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Cadet
02/13/03 12:09 PM
206.102.32.79
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In reply to:
If the game doesn't attract new players, the fan-base will grow stagnant, and eventually begin to shrink until it disappears. Word of mouth will only do so much. I could tell everyone I meet about CBT, but I'm not going to waste the effort on people who I know aren't interested.
Eventually nothing. The fan base is already shrinking thanks to stuff like te Jihad storyline. Someone that quits buying stuff because of that is effectively out of the fan base because they are no longer putting their money into the hobby.
What is needed is new blood to replace those who leave, whether it is from growing up, or disinterest, or disgust, or finacial issues, or whatever. That new blood isn't going to even find out about BattleTech by just guessing it. They need to see something to spark their interests.
Does not play well with others.
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masdog5
02/13/03 01:58 PM
205.213.146.254
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'I doubt FanPro will feature a pair of scantily-clad blonde twins in an ad for CBT'
What about the solaris 7 cheerleading team washing and waxing a mech? 
'but I think a picture of two 'Mechs fighting would grab the attention of your average gamer.'
Just as long as Plog isnt drawing it. 
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GiovanniBlasini
02/13/03 04:33 PM
204.210.29.44
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Dude, wanna know what the most effective advertising for Classic Battletech is?
MWDA, Mechwarrior 4 series, MechAssault.
Print ads are horribly expensive. I know this because NoTx from the Classic Battletech site and I have been looking into advertising for a startup game company (focusing mainly on D20 stuff) we've been trying to get the funding to start. Two biggest hurdles? Production costs and advertising costs.
Artists? No prob. We've gotten artists to agree to work with us. Hell, besides two local artists, we even talked to Nene Thomas about it, and gotten tacit approval from her, once the details could be worked out.
Of course, one of the details is finished products, ie., book formats, number of pages, advertising, etc.
FanPro is a small company, and prnt ads are horrifyingly expensive. Notice how current publications from them aren't exactly cheap? Well, it's in part because of the print run - it's too small to get better deals, that'd bring the price down, because development costs could be spread over more books. It's kinda like the whole F-22 thing, really.
Advertising in multiple print mags isn't terribly feasible. Given what they are advertising in, that's a good start.
Member of the Pundit Caste
"Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that." -- Col. Saul Tigh, BSG2003
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Bob_Richter
02/13/03 05:05 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>The fan base is already shrinking thanks to stuff like te Jihad storyline. <<<
Shrinking, nothing.
I'm sorry. I'd just like to see something solid to back up a statement like that.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
02/13/03 08:56 PM
65.129.166.0
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First MWDA is NOT BT. Mechwarrior computer games are good at getting folks to see the game but it still falls short.
And if print ads are so expensive then there would be none done for movies or other books and games...so I doubt that statement you made is true.
Ads in any and all forms are the key to selling the product. If this wasn't the case then there would be no radio ads since TV ads offers so much more, but yet the same products are advertisted on the radio as well as the TV....
So FP needs print ads as well as the publicaty of the computer games.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/13/03 09:00 PM
65.129.166.0
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The idea of relying one just one form of ads limits WHO you reach, which is the main point here.
Ads in magazines help reach folks and thus can bring in new fans and yes it's hard to follow Bob's line of thinking since he saying that the game doesn't need new fans.
Sorry but it does and always will.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/13/03 09:02 PM
65.129.166.0
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Ads in magazines still reach folks, ads in all forms of the media that folks use sell products relying on a single source be it TV or the Internet is limiting your chances to reach more folks.
And if anyone needs to get their heads out of the sand it's folks like you and Bob and TPTB.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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masdog5
02/13/03 09:03 PM
205.213.146.208
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'And if print ads are so expensive then there would be none done for movies or other books and games...so I doubt that statement you made is true.'
Yeah...lets compare a film, which has a fairly large budget backed by a studio that has a budget larger then the GDP of a small nation to a small game company.
Please!!! 
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Karagin
02/13/03 09:05 PM
65.129.166.0
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Let's compare the lack of advertisment by FP and the actually growth of sales for the game when compared to say Warhammer or a Playstation game...all of which get ads in other media besides the Internet or TV...
The point is FP is limiting themselves to one outlet and thus missing out on other areas that could and can help them out.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/13/03 09:08 PM
65.129.166.0
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Folks read the magazines Bob, again just because you don't doesn't mean others don't.
I fail to see why you are so against FP doing more advertisments and thus expanding who sees and learns about BT...one would think you would be all for this or do you know something no one else does?
I am sorry but I don't see your points and I think that you are becoming the upset that some of us fail to see your point and if I was the kind, though some would say I am, to call you names I would have to say you are being the naysayer here with your anti-ADs voice.
If you feel this is an attack well, I don't know what else to say since your logic on this one has escaped me.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/13/03 09:14 PM
65.129.166.0
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Bob you can't be serious here, you are claiming that no one reads two of the most popular magazines in the comic book and scifi generes can you back this up?
You have said you don't read these and some how this has become an everyone doesn't kind of statement from the statement you made I fail to see how that makes it a correct or true fact.
Ads are not the much, the smaller ones are fairly cheap and the full blown page ads can't be to much hence lot's of companies use them all the time, including small and just starting out compaines.
Again your logic that FP doesn't need to advertise beyond the Internet fails to be understandable...given that such an comment goes against helping the game out and opening it up to new fans and thus allowing it to grow.
You do want the game to grow don't you?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/13/03 09:20 PM
65.129.166.0
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Let's see the mass number of folks who have left since the MWDA storyline and such came out speaks for the fact that fans didn't like that idea.
The MASSIVE number of current fans who have stated that they don't like or WILL change the events of the Jihad to avoid the whole nuke'm tell they glow BS again shows that the fans are upset or disapointed with the current storyline.
And the rabid defense of the current storyline shows that TPTB seem to be afraid or unwilling to see that the fans are speaking and giving their opinions on things and maybe they should listen.
And to fully answer your question there have been more to leave the game in the last 6 months then to come into it and more have dumped their MWDA collections via Ebay then before, maybe that should tell you something, but then again it won't since you are so entrenched in defending the game now that all that matters to you is getting the YES it's wonderfull opinions and ignoring the Hey this NEEDS LOTS of work opinions.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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masdog5
02/13/03 09:21 PM
205.213.146.208
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Again, you are using a bad analogy. Although CBT has been around for a while, the company managing it hasnt. Fanpro is alot smaller then any of these companies that product PS games and warhammer.
Instead of complaining about this, why not just email fanpro and ask them why they arent advertising CBT? That would save everyone alot of headaches.
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masdog5
02/13/03 09:25 PM
205.213.146.208
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Its a game. If you dont like the story, you dont have to follow it. I often see you creating your own alternate realities in the design forums. Any fan that doesnt like the reality can create their own.
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Karagin
02/13/03 09:27 PM
65.129.166.0
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Thing is this whole topic HAS been brought to the attention of the folks at FANPRO...and all that is said is they had ONE ad and a write up in issue #23 of GAMES UNPLUGED...and while they claim said magazine is widely know and read, that doesn't seem to be the case in every single state.
And the Magazines I listed DO get wide spread reading in ALL states and BOTH are well know contrary to what Bob falsely claims.
So maybe given that some of TPTB lurk here, (hi guys!), they will see this.
So it's not arguing it's trying to give better facts to one who is misinformed and to clear up his not so correct statements.
I am sorry that you feel this isn't a worthy topic to talk about, but I think it is and it should be talked about in the hope that it will help FP and TPTB see that they need to have wider advertistments in order to increase the fan base.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/13/03 09:29 PM
65.129.166.0
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Yes they can and yes they do, but you hit the point on the head fans like the game, thus it gives them something and thus none of us want to see it go the way of the dodo bird...thus the need for more ads OUTSIDE of the internet.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/13/03 09:35 PM
65.129.166.0
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The point Bob is that with out OTHER sources of ads the game WON'T grow and thus the fan base WON'T expand and thus the game is hurt.
I find it hard to believe that you can't see this nor can I understand your lack of wanting the game to grow or advertise...is there something you know that the rest of fans don't?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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masdog5
02/13/03 09:37 PM
205.213.146.208
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But there are probably reasons why they dont at this time. There could be a number of reasons why they choose that magazine too...such as cost of said ad, is widely circulated in areas where they are most likely to get new fans, not in the budget, etc.
It is an important issue, and I never said that it wasnt worth being discussed. One problem that you seem to have when it comes to discussing issues is that you put words in peoples mouth. That is a very dirty tactic that you need to work on.
'it should be talked about in the hope that it will help FP and TPTB see that they need to have wider advertistments in order to increase the fan base.'
You know what works better then hoping they see it? Sending them an email and say that you think this is an issue, and that as a fan/customer, you think that they should increase their advertising.
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masdog5
02/13/03 09:38 PM
205.213.146.208
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Give it time. I am sure there will be more ads.
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Karagin
02/13/03 09:41 PM
65.129.166.0
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I see and you tell me I am agruing the topic...funny seems that you are putting words in my mouth...
And to quote my self I said I don't see how you can't say it's not important since BASED OFF OF WHAT YOU POSTED, that is the message I got, maybe you need to explain your meanings better so as to avoid the possibilty of leaving the meaning in doubt.
Once more, I have told the powers that be about this and when Warner posted his HOW ARE WE DOING topic I posted it there. So I have pointed it out to them. How about you do the same?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/13/03 09:42 PM
65.129.166.0
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Sure and maybe BT will be back on the top of the gaming world as well... 
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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