realworldviews
03/05/03 10:38 PM
24.98.62.128
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and flipping THAC0 (now renamed, because it was a stupid name)
And what made it a stupid name?
It's an acronym, THAC0, To Hit Armor Class 0 (Zero).
It always made sense to me.
It's was something that was unique to DnD. It was around from the beginning.
Personally I see DnD3e as being a totally new system using some of the name for things from the rest of the DnD games.
There is enough of a rules change that converting anything ADnD2ed, is just a waste of time. You might as well just start over. But that's just my opinion.
Colonel Brian Davis
Gamers United
"Dreams become reality, for all who start off with a dream"
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Bob_Richter
03/06/03 12:41 AM
4.35.174.250
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>>>It's was something that was unique to DnD. It was around from the beginning.<<<
It was something that every one of its sucessors abandoned.
Because it was stupid.
In the old system, to calculate a hit, you took your THAC0, subtracted the other guy's AC, and tried to roll over it.
This is counterintuitive, because high numbers are bad.
Attack Bonuses and a right-side-up AC make a lot more sense to your typical non DnDer.
But the hit mechanic is still the same.
>>>Personally I see DnD3e as being a totally new system using some of the name for things from the rest of the DnD games.<<<
Then you've pulled the wool over your own eyes. It has so much in common with the previous editions that it's stupid.
>>>There is enough of a rules change that converting anything ADnD2ed, is just a waste of time.<<<
Not at all. It's painfully easy.
Most things don't even need converting, except subtracting a couple of numbers from 20, and re-figuring a few other stats.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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TJHairball
03/06/03 02:00 PM
152.10.182.229
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I can see you are deadset in ignoring the large differences in the systems... feats, psionics, level advancement, classing/career pathing systems, "Challenge ratings", stat modification characteristics, skill system management vs proficiency/ability system, reach system, attacks of opportunity, special combat options, etc. Having DMed both editions, I'm quite familiar with the vast difference...
Everybody I know who's ever tried converting a AD&D 2nd Edition character into a 3rd edition char gave up on that character pretty quick and just started over. Seriously, it worked better for them that way; the basic character concepts are different between the two editions.
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Bob_Richter
03/07/03 11:27 AM
4.35.174.250
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>>>I can see you are deadset in ignoring the large differences in the systems... <<<
Nope.
I admit the differences are fairly large.
But they hardly reach the critical mass of making them totally different games, and they don't even begin to approach the vast gulf between second and third edition Mechwarrior.
Converting characters between the two editions is EASY....just use the character creation system. 
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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realworldviews
03/07/03 09:55 PM
24.98.62.128
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Converting characters between the two editions is EASY....just use the character creation system.
If your going to do that, as I said, You might as well start over from scratch. Instead of being able to just simply convert your old character you have to build a new one. Personally I don't think that is a very good converting system.
As to MW2ed & MW3ed I can't say anything about it, because I have never really played either of them, but I did try to make characters from all 3 editions (MW1, MW2, MW3), and I agree in at least the character creation MW1 and MW2 weren't all that different, but between MW2 and MW3 there seemed to be a major difference.
Colonel Brian Davis
Gamers United
"Dreams become reality, for all who start off with a dream"
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Bob_Richter
03/08/03 01:19 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>but between MW2 and MW3 there seemed to be a major difference.<<<
You are a champion of understatement.
The two systems have absolutely nothing in common.
Just due to the class/level paradigm, converting characters between DnD editions is easy. And they still have more in common that any two other "completely different games" I've ever seen. So much that it's stupid.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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TJHairball
03/08/03 09:03 PM
66.26.67.151
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I see you haven't listened to a thing I've said...
Yes, Dnd and AD&D are both "level/class" systems. There are plenty of those kicking around. "No difference" you say... but MW2 and MW3 are both "skill-att improvment by points" systems in the exact same way. General system TYPE matching doesn't mean system compatibility, character compatbility, or even overall similarity.
As to MW2 and 3 having NOTHING in common... au contraire. They both use essentiall the same skill check and save system, with d10s subbed for d6s. Remarkably similar improvement system, where you spend points to improve skills or attributes. I could even point out the equipment lists are remarkably similar... but I won't go any further. The fact of the matter is, it IS a different system between the two. Not completely, but enough to throw you off. I don't know how tough it may be to convert chars between MW2 and MW3... they may share the degree of incompatibility that Dnd and AD&D do in that regard, haven't checked my books lately.
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Bob_Richter
03/09/03 03:50 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>I see you haven't listened to a thing I've said...<<<
Nor have you to a thing I've said.
*sigh*
>>>General system TYPE matching doesn't mean system compatibility, character compatbility, or even overall similarity.<<<
I didn't say it did.
>>>They both use essentiall the same skill check and save system, with d10s subbed for d6s. <<<
You have no idea what you're talking about, I see.
>>>Remarkably similar improvement system, where you spend points to improve skills or attributes.<<<
Similar in only the vague sort of way that points are spent to improve skills or attributes. This manages only to differentiate it from Level-based systems, and not many of them.
>>>I could even point out the equipment lists are remarkably similar... <<<
The C-Bill values and item titles are the same, but that happens when you build two systems for the same universe.
>>>The fact of the matter is, it IS a different system between the two. Not completely, but enough to throw you off.<<<
I admit it was a fairly severe edition change. Rather like what happened to Shadowrun between Second and Third Edition, but it wasn't as if it had just become Rifts or Star Wars or something. The essentials of the system are all still there, with myriad improvements tucked in around them (new skills system, for example, and new recommendations for XP awards.)
To convert a character from AD&D2ed to DnD3ed, just take their classes, levels, and attributes, and substitute the equivalent classes, levels, and attributes from the new system. The hardest things you will encounter will be
1) No equivalent class (theives are rogues now, and Rangers are something else entirely)
2) The new skill system.
Have you seen the MW2 to MW3 conversion document? It requires a number of arcane formulae and GM judgement. I've come up with simpler ways to convert back and forth to 2ed DnD from 2ed Mechwarrior than that.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Vapor
03/10/03 03:53 AM
202.128.73.130
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Has anyone thought of getting in touch with WizKids and FanPro and finding out if they have an official statement on this topic? All I have seen is opinion and guesswork. I'm sure if someone were to ask WizKids and/or FanPro they would be able to clear this whole discussion up, and this topic could get buried somewhere like it should have been long ago.
"For those about to rock, we salute you." - AC DC
"The evil that can come, from the heart of a man, must be answered in kind 'till it disappears, and we're safe." - Kansas
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Cadet
03/10/03 09:37 PM
206.102.32.81
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Sorry. I just figured since this is something that effects the game and community as a whole I could post it here. I didn't post it at the main site because it is unflatering and would have been closed immediately as such. And there is the fact I'm banned atcbt.com forever. And it isn't like Randel returns my emails...but as a NAYSAYER! and FEAR-MONGER! I'm used to that.
But you know...some of the big people (and wannabe big people) do lurk and post here, and yet haven't managed a response. I think that speaks volumes in itself.
Does not play well with others.
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Vapor
03/10/03 10:52 PM
202.128.73.193
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I wasn't blaming you for posting the question, Cadet. God knows, I've thrown my own 10 or 12 cents into this discussion. I was just commenting that the discussion has gone on for an incredibly long time with people going back and forth on the same topic over and over and over, ad nauseum. It's about time someone did a little research and got an official statement.
"For those about to rock, we salute you." - AC DC
"The evil that can come, from the heart of a man, must be answered in kind 'till it disappears, and we're safe." - Kansas
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Gangrene
03/10/03 11:56 PM
68.113.44.60
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You're banned at CBT! What happened?
I have also been called a fear-monger/hate-monger/nay-sayer by some of the admin there. I haven't been banned yet, though.
Gangrene
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Cadet
03/11/03 12:01 AM
206.102.32.81
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Well I had my happy little profile that said I knew Warner Camille and Nadin (we go way back). Camille didn't like it and asked me to change it. I ignored her. She asked again and I told her I gave her request all the due consideration it deserved [READ: None]. She squealed like the porcine animal she is and it got changed by an admin. I said some coward did it and could even have the common courtasy to tell me. They didn't like that.
Or maybe it was when someone asked me about certain people and I said I wished they were dead. Didn't think hatred was against the rules.
Ahhh...good times.
I'm not banned at Mordel. I just don't post there, although I do lurk from time to time.
Does not play well with others.
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Bob_Richter
03/11/03 04:08 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>> I think that speaks volumes in itself. <<<
Yup.
Points up the fact that you are, as you said, a Naysayer and a Fear-Monger.
If you really want, I can try to find the REAL answer to this question for you.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Cadet
03/11/03 05:50 PM
206.102.32.131
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So their not responding after seeing the question posed is proof that I am a FEAR-MONGER! and NAYSAYER!?
I don't quite make the connection.
Does not play well with others.
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PeterSmith
03/11/03 08:37 PM
4.17.223.29
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You happened to leave out the part about you having a picture of a naked man as your profile picture. That's what got you in the most trouble. That's what got you banned.
Peter Smith
Power corrupts. Absolute power is kinda neat.
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Cadet
03/11/03 08:59 PM
206.102.33.163
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Good times indeed. I'm giggling just thinking about that man in the kiddie pool. 
To be fair though, his gut hung down enough to cover his unit.
So if I publically apologize, can I be unbanned? I mean a year in the penalty box should be enough
Does not play well with others.
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PeterSmith
03/11/03 09:49 PM
4.17.223.29
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I pulled the name ban, but I think there's also an IP ban. Do me a favor and e-mail me your IP if you can't get onto the board. marauder@classicbattletech.com
Peter Smith
Power corrupts. Absolute power is kinda neat.
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Vapor
03/11/03 10:17 PM
202.123.138.215
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Bob, just out of curiosity, is it possible for you to make a comment without it involving a personal swipe at someone?
You only quoted the last part of Cadet's statement. He freely admitted that he has been called a "Naysayer" and "Fear-Monger", but what you quoted him as saying had nothing to do with those. You seem to have a penchant for twisting people's words around sometimes (not all the time, but every now and then).
He was referring to the fact that people who could provide definitive answers to the question raised by this post are known to look at these forums, and the lack of any kind of response from them is strangely absent. They could have cleared up this question a long time ago, but they didn't.
Feel free to see if you can get a REAL answer if you want to. Just make sure it is unedited if you post it in here.
"For those about to rock, we salute you." - AC DC
"The evil that can come, from the heart of a man, must be answered in kind 'till it disappears, and we're safe." - Kansas
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TJHairball
03/12/03 04:11 PM
66.26.67.151
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Speaking as someone who has overseen attempted conversions between AD&D and DnD... it isn't as simple as that, and most cases have to involve "GM discretion" - much as you mentioned for the MW2 to MW3 systems. The fact is... the races don't fuinction the same, the classes don't function the same, and the feats/skills/stat improvement thing is radically different from the proficiency/class ability system of AD&D; the levels balance differently - most particularly due to the varying XP tables of AD&D and flat XP tables of DnD, which required radically different balancing acts between classes. Not one of the gamers I've gamed with has managed to bring a character from AD&D to DnD (despite several abortive attempts they gave up on and cahracters they were firmly attached to); I haven't heard of a single successful campagin conversion between the two.
Actually, I'm surprised that you mentioned Shadowrun... the differences between MW2 and 3 can in large part be derived from SR2 (I'm unfamiliar with SR3) rules and knowledge of both should make adaptation between the two systems markedly easier.
Enough said... this is a bit far of a digression off topic. I'm sure you're still not convinced of the differences between AD&D and Dnd.
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