Karagin
02/24/03 05:14 PM
68.21.149.195
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I have contested his points and if you would read the post and stop with the attacks and sarcasitic comments you might see that.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/24/03 05:16 PM
68.21.149.195
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Do you know how much it cost them? Arrgoant or not, it's a legimate complaint. The higher cost is going to hurt the sales of the game and the fact is very clear when you compare what you get in the box set to the other games that gamers can spend the same amount on, that they are NOT getting their money's worth from FP with the box set for the $35 they are asking.
Why is it so hard for you and the rest to see that the asking price is way too high?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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masdog5
02/24/03 07:03 PM
205.213.146.15
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Its not a legitiamte complaint, though. I may not know how much it costs, but I would pay the money to by the boxed set, or get some of my friends to go in on it with me, if I was interested in the game.
It costs 90 dollars to get enough information to run an effective DnD campaign. It cost twice that to run a well developed, multi-race whitewolf campaign.
In minitures games, its even more because you actually need the pieces to play. MWDA is $20 for a starter, $10 for a booster. In order to get a decent army, you need to put alot of money into it. Warhammer and its variants cost even more because you have to buy the pieces individually.
Thats where BT is the exception. You dont need the mini's to play. You can play a campaign right out of the box. The other books, like the Master Rules and Max Tech come in handy and help you build better campaigns, but they arent required for one.
You asked why it is so hard for me to see that the asking price is so high? Well, I dont think that it is so high. I think it is pretty fair, especially for what I would get in the package.
I dont see it as a legitimate complaint, compared to the costs of other games. $35 dollars for a game you can play right out of the box isnt asking too much, especially if the gamers do a little research on the products they buy.
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masdog5
02/24/03 07:21 PM
205.213.146.15
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I dont see how you get more from a $9.95 booster or a $19.95 starter.
According to Wizkids site, you only get 8 miniatures in your starter, only one of them a mech. You get 4 minis in the booster, again, only one a mech.
As for teh starter packs, you dont get as much as you do in the 5th edition. You get:
8 MechWarrior miniatures, painted and assembled (1 ’Mech, 2 vehicles, 5 infantry)
36-page rulebook
1 Special Equipment Card
3 Dice
1 Flexible Ruler
Thats all you get in the MWDA starters.
I dont see how you are getting more out of that...or is it just because of a lower cost and cheap plastic minis?
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Karagin
02/24/03 07:50 PM
68.21.149.102
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I am sorry you feel that it's not. I am glad to know that you are willing to go along with this price increase without even questioning it.
I am sorry you don't see my point and I am very sorry that you feel that I am not being fair to FanPro. So I guess the idea of wanting quailty products for REASONABLE prices is something shouldn't be expected from FanPro, because to question their motives or actions is wrong in your eyes.
So if you feel that I am wrong then I guess that is your right and so goes life.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/24/03 07:54 PM
68.21.149.102
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Let's see you get actually miniatures or action figures to use, that's not in the 5th ED Box Set.
So let's compare 36 cardboard counters to the minitaures...gee, now if you wanted new fans to stay with the game having the miniatures in the box set...no wait that would make sense.
You get more mainly because you have money left over after buying the MWDA stuff compared to the same amount of cash spent on the BT box set...
I guess you don't shop around for the best deal very often do you?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bloodrider
02/24/03 08:13 PM
152.163.189.136
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>An a movie at anything other than an afternoon matinee is $16+. Plus obligatory refreshments. <
Man, I'm glad I live in Southeast Tennessee. I only have to pay $7 a ticket down here. :-)
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room..." -from Dr. Strangelove
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Bloodrider
02/24/03 08:21 PM
152.163.189.136
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>Let's see you get actually miniatures or action figures to use, that's not in the 5th ED Box Set.<
But NOT enough minis to actually do anything with, which is the entire reason that MWDA is called collectible.
>You get more mainly because you have money left over after buying the MWDA stuff compared to the same amount of cash spent on the BT box set...<
Again, one MWDA Starter Set is not enough to really play the game. Whereas the 5th Ed. IS. Granted, it would have been nice if the 5th Edition came with some minis, but the minis have never been necessary to play BattleTech.
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room..." -from Dr. Strangelove
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Bloodrider
02/24/03 08:27 PM
152.163.189.136
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>As for TBell...well..most people I know around here only eat it because they are drunk and its the only place open at 1 AM on a Friday and Saturday. Personally, I wont touch that stuff... <
You forgot to mention all of the obnoxiously annoying teenagers, man. Taco Hell would be more appropriate.
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room..." -from Dr. Strangelove
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Bloodrider
02/24/03 08:32 PM
152.163.189.136
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>Warhammer and its variants cost even more because you have to buy the pieces individually.<
Or about $200 for some of the boxed armies.
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room..." -from Dr. Strangelove
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Bloodrider
02/24/03 08:39 PM
152.163.189.136
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Here's a link on paper price increases I found. Somewhat interesting...
www.faxon.com/proj/default.htm
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room..." -from Dr. Strangelove
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Bloodrider
02/24/03 08:54 PM
152.163.189.136
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www.publishingmall.com/news.cfm?News_ID=105
www.collegejournal.com/researchindustries/ researchindustries/publishing-v.html
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room..." -from Dr. Strangelove
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masdog5
02/24/03 09:31 PM
205.213.146.15
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More like Toxic Hell... 
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masdog5
02/24/03 09:45 PM
205.213.146.15
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'Let's see you get actually miniatures or action figures to use, that's not in the 5th ED Box Set. '
You get 8 minis to start with. That allows you to play, what? One small, localized engagement. In order to make an effective game, each player would need to spend $40 bucks (one starter and two boosters) to get enough units to somewhat customize their army.
Unless my math is a little fuzzy, thats $80 bucks between two players...alot more then the $35 needed to buy the CBT boxed set.
'So let's compare 36 cardboard counters to the minitaures...gee, now if you wanted new fans to stay with the game having the miniatures in the box set...no wait that would make sense.'
It would, but only if you wanted to pay for those 36 mini's, which are metal IIRC.
Mini's arent required to play BT. Helpful, yes. But not nessecary. All you need is a few slips of paper to mark which mech is which.
'You get more mainly because you have money left over after buying the MWDA stuff compared to the same amount of cash spent on the BT box set...'
Again, my math may be fuzzy, but if you and a friend were to each buy one starter of MWDA, you would get 16 minis at a cost of 40 bucks. You wouldnt have battles with a number of different units unless you spent more money on boosters. With the starter set, you start out with 36 mechs, even though they may be cardboard counters. Thats twice the number of units you get with two MWDA starters, and since you dont need the minis to play cbt, you can add any of the mechs, vehicles, etc without having to go out and try to get them, saving you even more money.
And the best part is, you have $5 left over to get some wonderful taco bell after you are done with your shopping.
'I guess you don't shop around for the best deal very often do you?'
Actually, I do. I usually try to strike the best balance between price and quality that I can...
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masdog5
02/24/03 09:45 PM
205.213.146.15
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I guess part of the whole problem is what we all consider reasonable. I feel that 35 is completely reasonable, compared to the prices of several other games.
What I dont think is fair is how anyone who doesnt agree with you is automatically against you. There are reasons for a price increase, most likely because of materials and other underlying costs, such as those for their licensing agreement.
I'm sorry that you seem to not want to consider other opinions, because you have completely disregarded and attacked opinions given by Chas, Bob, myself, and others.
I'm sorry that you cant see that $10 isnt that big of an increase, given the FACT that FP NEEDS to pay WIZKIDS for EVERY product that they sell and that it takes alot more then that to get a comparable battle going in MWDA.
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Karagin
02/24/03 11:36 PM
68.21.149.232
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Amazing, I have considered all points, but it's odd how quick you change your tune to say that I am now not listening to you. Thing is you haven't been listening to anything I have posted.
You seems to think I am automatically against you because you disagree with me...sorry that's not the case. What I am against is this defense of FP's price guaging of the fans.
Maybe you should read the whole thread again, and maybe this time you will see that my main point is that they could have done a better job for less, given that this the product that is suppose to lure in fans and show the BT world with out all the uber reading and high prices that come with the sourcebooks and such...but hey what does it matter since the herd animal mentailty seems to be what WK is counting on here from the fans.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/24/03 11:38 PM
68.21.149.232
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It seems you don't.
But hey why fight the herd since it's easier to just go along with the group...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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masdog5
02/24/03 11:55 PM
205.213.146.15
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And yet you cant even respond to one of my points.
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Karagin
02/25/03 12:08 AM
68.21.149.232
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Your points...let's see...new fan buys either BT 5th Ed or MWDA Starter and some boosters...
Okay I am saying that at the current price of the box set the fan would be more likely to buy the MWDA starter since he saves money. Your point claims he's better off buying the Box set price be damn...
Then you toss in the idea that it takes TWO folks buying the MWDA stuff to equal one buying the Box Set...so tell me how did we go from one fan to two?
The point here is that the cost is a rip off. There is NOTHING in the box set that says the priice of $35 is worth it. Nothing. No miniatures, no metal figures, no super cool artwork in full color, nothing that makes the box set stand out and demand to be bought over say MWDA or a D&D book or anything else that might catch the fans eye in the store...
Then you keep pointing out the obvious that WK is sucking BT dry...thank you I think 80% of us know this. That isn't the main point here. That is the under lying point to the issue yes, but not the main one.
You argue that they had to raise the cost since everything cost more now, actually you and Bob both are on this point, and I countered that given that this (the box set) is the starting point for new fans it would make more sense to have it sell for less say around $25. You again claimed they couldn't do it because they wouldn't be making money on it...now I ask do you think they are going to be making a lot on the box set with the $35 price tag? I doubt it.
So let's see you claim that the price increase is a good thing and something shows they are trying. I on the other hand see this as an inflated price that isn't warrant and just gouges the fans and the new fans out of money since the product doesn't give anything worth the asking price.
So tell us. do you support the record industry and their inflated prices on new and old CDs given that the musicans don't get more then $5 from each sale?
And if the price of the box set is so high, then wouldn't it make sense to have a good ad campaign out there to promot it so as there is a chance to make some money back? They do have spend money to make money...and it seems that they are afraid to do that.
So what were your points again? Oh yes...how we should be happy to have Battletech in any shape or fashion and that we should just pay what ever they ask and not question things...or do you have another stance?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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LordChaos
02/25/03 12:32 PM
67.41.67.32
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"Where is the cost increase coming from for the product? Nothing in the box set shows that they added anything that would warrant a price increase.
Please show us something that makes it very clear that the price increase is warrant...so far I don't see it and that is taking in account the idea that things cost more now then they did seven years ago..."
You have that short of memory? This was shown in another post in this thread :
In 1996, the BT4E was published for $25. It contained 48 full color card board counters, 32 page, full-color universe book (only included 4 half-page color shots along with the 24 Mechs), 48 page rulebook, dice, stands and a small sticker sheet.
Seven years later the CBT box set contains 48 full-color cardboard counters, a 48 page full-color universe book (contains 8 full-page color pieces and 4 half-page pieces, along with the 24 Mechs), a 64 page rulebook, a full-color 16 page quick-start rules pamphlet, a full-color poster-sized map of the IS, stands and dice.
Let's look at that, shall we? Univers book increased in size by 50%, with amount of full color pages in it increasing by over 400%. Rule book increased in size by 33%. The quick start rules book and poster map of the IS have no equivilent in the 4th edition.
And you have to nerve to set there, in light of an increase in content of at least 30%, and claim that it's price isn't in line with the 4th edition? I have to agree with the guy who posted that compairison originaly. Compaired to the 4th edition, how did they get away with only charging $35 considering not only increase in costs but all the extra they put in the 5th edition.
Real mechwariors pilot IS mechs.
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Karagin
02/25/03 01:57 PM
68.21.149.61
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So we get more pages in the rule...and some color pages...and for all of that, not counting the map, we get an increase of $10...I still don't see why the price went up for a few more pages and some color ones at that...There were NO plastic mechs like 3rd Ed and that one costed $20 to $25 and was a high seller.
So we are forced to pay an extra $10 for the quick start rules, a map of the IS and some color pages...wow I am glad I only payed $20 for it...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Chunga
02/25/03 02:56 PM
66.84.240.243
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In reply to:
So what were your points again? Oh yes...how we should be happy to have Battletech in any shape or fashion and that we should just pay what ever they ask and not question things...
Absolutely, because a year ago we didn't even have that. We had nothing. The very fact that you have anything to complain about should make you very happy.
Chunga
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Karagin
02/25/03 03:07 PM
68.21.149.211
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Nice company line...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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masdog5
02/25/03 04:18 PM
205.213.146.254
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'Then you toss in the idea that it takes TWO folks buying the MWDA stuff to equal one buying the Box Set...so tell me how did we go from one fan to two?'
It takes two fans to play the game, correct? MWDA is designed so that each new player has to buy their own starter if they want to play. That isnt so with BT, since mini's arent required to play the game.
'The point here is that the cost is a rip off. There is NOTHING in the box set that says the priice of $35 is worth it.'
Your opinion.
'Nothing. No miniatures, no metal figures, no super cool artwork in full color, nothing that makes the box set stand out and demand to be bought over say MWDA or a D&D book or anything else that might catch the fans eye in the store...'
I havent seen the artwork in the new boxed set, so I cant judge it yet. From what I have heard, there is new full color art, more so then the previous boxed set. There is more backstory included with the new version of the game too. That might not mean much to us because we have been immersed in the universe for some time, but to a new player, it means alot.
When I first started gaming, I bought some of the Whitewolf products because of the background information included with the product, not the artwork.
'That isn't the main point here. That is the under lying point to the issue yes, but not the main one.'
Understanding underlying issues is important when it comes to discussing the main issue.
'You argue that they had to raise the cost since everything cost more now, actually you and Bob both are on this point, and I countered that given that this (the box set) is the starting point for new fans it would make more sense to have it sell for less say around $25. You again claimed they couldn't do it because they wouldn't be making money on it...now I ask do you think they are going to be making a lot on the box set with the $35 price tag? I doubt it.'
You cant sell a product for less than it costs to make, unless you can afford to take a loss. I highly doubt that Fanpro can afford to take a loss. I dont think htey will make a lot on the $35 dollar price, but that is most likely the bare minimum that they could sell the product for.
'So let's see you claim that the price increase is a good thing and something shows they are trying. I on the other hand see this as an inflated price that isn't warrant and just gouges the fans and the new fans out of money since the product doesn't give anything worth the asking price.'
See above comments.
'So tell us. do you support the record industry and their inflated prices on new and old CDs given that the musicans don't get more then $5 from each sale?'
Nice loaded question. It depends on the artist. I wont buy an NSYNC cd because the band makes 5 million if htey get 5 bucks out of every cd, but I will buy the cd of an artist that I really like.
I normally wouldnt even do that, but I miss my napster.
'And if the price of the box set is so high, then wouldn't it make sense to have a good ad campaign out there to promot it so as there is a chance to make some money back? They do have spend money to make money...and it seems that they are afraid to do that.'
I think that we have covered this issue alot, and I have constantly brought up the point that they may not simply have the resources to currently do one. We dont have any figures on FP's income, expenses, the licensing agreement between them and WK, and what ad space costs. Now, if we could get some of that information, then we wouldnt be speculating and could actually come up with some proposal for FP.
'Oh yes...how we should be happy to have Battletech in any shape or fashion and that we should just pay what ever they ask and not question things...'
Putting words in my mouth.
My point was merely that there are reasons for the decisions they made, reasons that we dont know because we dont have access to all the data.
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LordChaos
02/25/03 04:48 PM
67.41.67.32
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4th edition boxed set (the last box set before this) was $25. It die NOT have minitures in it however.
5th edition (this one) is $35 dollars. An increase of 40%. However, it ALSO increased the amount of content by about 25-30%, AND increased the quality (and hense production cost) of said content, AND requires the manufactures to pay a licensing fee.
And you are complaining about the price increase? I wouldn't be suprised if the profit per box on 5th edition is LOWER then any other edition.
Compaired to 4th edition at $25, I'd estimate that this is just about the lowest they can price it without loosing money on each box.
Real mechwariors pilot IS mechs.
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Bob_Richter
02/25/03 04:55 PM
4.35.174.250
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You have not.
And if you would read the posts and stop with the sarcastic comments (and maybe take a freshman logic class,) you might see that.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
02/25/03 04:57 PM
4.35.174.250
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What did you miss from that story.
First, let me restate: I'm not a kid anymore. I'm Twenty-One years old, no longer delivering papers with the loving housing and feeding support of my parents.
WHEN I WAS A KID, I spent hundreds of dollars on computers, Battletech, Shadowrun, what have you. And everyone else I knew supported similarly expensive hobbies.
I reiterate, I'm not a kid. I can't afford to spend lots of money on stuff anymore. Kids have it easy. 
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
02/25/03 04:58 PM
4.35.174.250
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...you're the only one who's out of line here.
Back off, before I sick Nic on you.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
02/25/03 05:02 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>and yes the price HAS BEEN jacked up.<<<
This you claim, because it costs $10 more than it did a decade ago?
THINGS HAVE CHANGED, and if you can't figure that out, I'm very sorry for you.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
02/25/03 05:10 PM
4.35.174.250
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OOh, so I'm off by $.15
It's called ESTIMATING, Karagin.
$19.95 = $19.95
2x $9.95 = $19.90
$19.95 + $19.90 = $39.85
(and that doesn't count the Governor's Cut.)
Geez, you're anal-retentive.
>>>>Even if you don't buy two boosters you set get MORE for a lot less then FP is asking for 5th ED BT...<<<
$15 isn't a lot of money. Surely you've figured that out.
Tournament armies are 200 points. I'd like to see you find THAT in a starter set. No, you were right. A decent start in MWDA comes from a Starter ($19.95) and a couple of Boosters ($9.95 each)
There's more STUFF in the new CBT boxed set (even if none of it is those pretty plastic minis that cost so dreadfully much.)
And it lends itself instantly to infinite replayability with any number of people. That single $35 dollar purchase is, like a Monopoly game, the ONLY THING YOU WILL EVER NEED TO PLAY BATTLETECH.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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