BT Box Set 5th Ed

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Bob_Richter
02/25/03 05:47 PM
4.35.174.250

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The point is irrelevant. They have it. They spend it.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter

Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
masdog5
02/25/03 05:48 PM
205.213.146.15

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'I have spoken to folks who have used and own the product...so nice try friend.'

Thats not the same as the people who develop it...
Bob_Richter
02/25/03 05:49 PM
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>>>Miniature games are tactical games...<<<

Squares are rectangles.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter

Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
Bob_Richter
02/25/03 05:50 PM
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Thank you.

Why the sudden change of heart?
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter

Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
masdog5
02/25/03 05:59 PM
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If you think the product is truely that bad and needs to be improved, sitting around and [deleted] about it on a message board wont get you anywhere, no matter who browses it. Anyone who sees the way you write will either try to avoid you or not take you seriously because all you seem to do is cry about an issue.

If you would come up with a better way of presenting the information, and do it in a better place, like Randall's email, then you might get the improvements you seek...or at least some reason why it cant be done at this time.
Karagin
02/25/03 06:13 PM
68.21.149.101

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If you say so, but given that you have yet to disgree where it can been seen as anything other then an attack...
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
02/25/03 06:14 PM
68.21.149.101

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And this proves what?
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
02/25/03 06:16 PM
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BS...I have been attacked by you, Chas, Chunga, Warner and the rest of cliche that you run with...so please get your facts straight, and this happens everytime I speak out about things I don't like or would like to see changed...and I have seen you and your buddies do the same to others...so please go sell you snake oil down the road.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
02/25/03 06:17 PM
68.21.149.101

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No Change of heart Bob...I am sick of the company line and the lack of listening by those that claim to be in the know...
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Bob_Richter
02/25/03 06:22 PM
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BS, you've been attacked by NOBODY and been whaling all over Chas, Chunga, Warner, and plenty of other people I barely know.

The word is clique, not cliche, and I'm not a part of any clique containing Chunga, Chas, and Warner. I'm kinda friendly with two out of three of those. You could be too, if you tried.

People try to set you straight every time your cheap ass whines, and that's all there is to it, aside of the fact that you REFUSE to be set straight.

Of course, you'll never see that. I don't know why I bother.

In fact, that's why I'm quitting. Have a nice time with your little flame-war, Karagin. I'll be waiting when you're done.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter

Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
masdog5
02/25/03 06:25 PM
205.213.146.15

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Alot. You seem to like complaining, but you never actually talk to the people who can make a difference about your complaints.

And dont give me any bull[deleted] about leaving that post for Warner. Thats not communicating your problems. Yeah, he might have asked for opinions, but just posting it on a board does nothing.

If you feel this strongly about this topic, then YOU should take some responsibility, write out an email where you dont come off like a spoiled little brat, and present your case to the people at FP.
LordChaos
02/25/03 08:33 PM
67.41.67.32

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Ok, let me put it to you in clear, straight, blunt terms.

In order for them to charge the same as 4th edition, they would need to do 1 of 2 things :

Reduce content and quality, quite posible below that of 4th edition. (we are talking 1st edition levels and quality).

or

Loose money on every box sold.


Which would you have them do? Post a loss on every single sale? Can't do that for long and not go bankrupt quickly. Or should they produce and release a poor quality product, arguabley worse then every edition before it in quality and quantity? That route is the road to customer hostility.

Here's a free clue : People don't mind paying for a high quality product that they get lots of.
Real mechwariors pilot IS mechs.
LordChaos
02/25/03 08:35 PM
67.41.67.32

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"(a full-color universe book? Kick ASS!)"

That right there makes me serriously think about buying this...
Real mechwariors pilot IS mechs.
Karagin
02/25/03 09:18 PM
68.21.149.158

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I understand that. But for what they are charging I don't see the high quialty...there is no super artwork that differs from any of the other artwork we have seen, and if adding in a color map of the IS causes the price to go up, one would think that they could hold the map for say...FM Update or something like that...

Putting out a less costly product with decent quailty isn't hard to do...it's matter of thinking and budgeting. I think they could have done what they have in the current set and charged less if they really thought it through...think about it...simple rules, that cover the basics...nothing fancy...that is what the BMR-R is for...leave out the color map and keep the page count down, remember this is the starter set not the whole Level 2 and 3 nutshell...then have something in there that pushes the new players towards the other products....

The KISS idea comes to mind...Keep It Simple...they didn't do that here...dealying it to get more art...gee that means cost overruns and we all see where that went, the fans want decent products...not overpriced products that have you wondering why you bought and turns a potentional fan way given that he or she can spend the same amount on other games and get more for their money. Couple this with the lack of advertistment and as it has been said, one write up in a magazine that sees LIMITED distrobution doesn't mean they have advertisted, spells low sales and poor return.

I am sorry but if this is the trend for future products then the current fan base is going to be it...no growth no game...
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
02/25/03 09:20 PM
68.21.149.158

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Just looked through the game...there is NO full color universe book...the only thing that is in color is the map and the quickplay rules...there is no universe book in the Box Set...
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Chas
02/25/03 10:37 PM
66.187.4.132

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"Nice attack Bob, I would complain but then again Chas won't do anything about it"

Really? Want to ask Bob why he was banned for Sarna for two weeks?

Don't presume to tell people what I will and will not do. All you know about me is filtered through your (mostly bad) interactions with me when you were in the wrong.

---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."

-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
Chas
02/25/03 10:45 PM
66.187.4.132

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"The only chip around here is the one that seems to come up when ever anyone speaks out about things they don't like or would like to see changed in BT"

Let's just say I disagree here. There's a chip there, but not the one you posit. And it's one of several chips that float about here.

The chip you misrepresent is towards people who complain.

Not those who complain CONSTRUCTIVELY. Just the non-constructive stuff.

"This sucks" doesn't do anyone any good.

"This sucks, but here's an idea about how we could fix it" is a LOT better, and much more easily assimilated and acted upon.

If the developers listened to every "This sucks. THE END" statement, we wouldn't have ANYTHING today.

If you want constructive action taken, give constructive criticism and constructive solutions when you see them.

If that's too much to ask, don't be surprised if your gripes get ignored with a vengeance.

"yeah sure if you say so... "

Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they aren't listening to you. And it doesn't mean they're completely unreasonable. You need to learn the difference between an attack and a disagreement.

Until that happens, you're going to go on feeling like you're the most put-upon person in BT fandom.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."

-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
Chas
02/25/03 10:49 PM
66.187.4.132

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"I have spoken to folks who have used and own the product...so nice try friend."

And your automatic assumption is that I have not.

Additionally, you completely ignored what I actually said.

Again....

I said, if you want a breakdown of why the product costs so much, go speak to the people that produced it. They could probably give you more information on why it cost so much than you're even equipped to handle.

(Note: I'm not saying you're not equipped to handle the data, I'm just saying there's gobs of data out there, some of it more useful, some of it less so. And only a madman would really need to assimilate it all.)

Thank you for conceding the argument to me without even the benefit of an interesting debate.

---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."

-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
Chas
02/25/03 10:52 PM
66.187.4.132

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"And your attacking folks who speak out about things they feel need changing is any better? "

Let me state this, again, for the record.

When

I

do

not

agree

with

you

it

does

not

mean

that

what

I

say

is

an

attack.



In short. I am disagreeing with you, and telling you that if you really want a better product, give constructive feedback

Otherwise, you aren't helping ANYTHING. Except giving yourself a nice catharsis session.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."

-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
Chas
02/25/03 10:54 PM
66.187.4.132

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"Pen and Paper or not, it's still a miniatures game... "

Bzzt! Wrong answer.

BattleTech is NOT a miniatures game.

It's a pen-and-paper board game with a rules extension to allow for the use of miniatures.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."

-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
Chas
02/25/03 11:10 PM
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"I have been attacked by you, Chas, Chunga, Warner and the rest of cliche that you run with"

You've been attacked by Warner.

Guess who got himself banned from here.

You've been attacked by Bob.

Guess who got himself banned from here.

You've been attacked by Chunga.

Guess who got himself banned from here.

You attacked me at one time.

Guess who got himself banned from here.

I haven't attacked you. Face it.

I've disagreed with you. NOTHING MORE.

Please stop purporting that:

A) You're a victim of unprovoked attacks.

You've been as blatantly unpleasant as possible to just about EVERYONE here. And attacked others on numerous occasions. As well as pushing the outer boundaries of what is acceptable in terms of what is NOT an attack.

B) That nothing is being done when you're attacked.

It has.

C) That I'm attacking you.

I'm not. I am disagreeing with you. And, because you have a penchant for twisting words, I'm doing it in no uncertain terms.

Again, if you can't handle that, the problem is with you, not with me.

---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."

-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
Chas
02/25/03 11:11 PM
66.187.4.132

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"No Change of heart Bob...I am sick of the company line and the lack of listening by those that claim to be in the know... "

Give us more than "This sucks. Fix it." And we might actually listen to you. Otherwise, we've already exhausted the possibilities of such a limited vocabulary selection.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."

-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
Chas
02/25/03 11:18 PM
66.187.4.132

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" think they could have done what they have in the current set and charged less if they really thought it through"

What could they have done to reduce the costs?
* Remove the map. Okay, that's one thing that could probably have shaved at least a buck or two off. I've produced some of Lance's maps before. I know how expensive they can get. (I have several banner-sized versions that Lance himself brought me during his GenCon stop-overs. They're expensive as *EXPLETIVE DELETED*.)

Good. That's part of what I meant by "constructive".

Also, how could they keep the page count down?

---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."

-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
Cadet
02/25/03 11:22 PM
206.102.33.120

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In reply to:

Also, how could they keep the page count down?




Get rid of the filler art. Not only would it lower the page count (and costs) but it would remove the cost of paying for the art.
Does not play well with others.
Chunga
02/25/03 11:26 PM
24.211.11.205

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Nice dodge of the question.

Chunga
Chunga
02/25/03 11:36 PM
24.211.11.205

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Because he can't actually answer Chas' questions.

Chunga
Karagin
02/25/03 11:46 PM
68.21.149.113

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If you say so...nice attempt at flaming and trolling.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
02/25/03 11:49 PM
68.21.149.113

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Did you read what I posted? BASIC AND SIMPLE...keep it all level 1 no level 2 rules save that for them buying the BMR-R etc...

Color art isn't needed beyond the cover of the book and the flyer in the box set talking about other BT products with catch pharses about how the new player can expand into the game etc...

Things like that...funny I have been saying this all along...no matter.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
02/25/03 11:50 PM
68.21.149.113

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Card board counters that are proxies for miniatures makes it a miniatures game...seen folks using them with out the hex maps LONG before there were rules for using inches and such...so nice try your self...

Please play again.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
02/25/03 11:53 PM
68.21.149.113

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Why debate something with you when you won't rein in the clique that is your buddies and keep them in order? Why would I want to debate something when I know damn good and well that your friends will attack the second they get the chance and post the same over used crap about how we should be greatful and happy to have what we have over and over again...

What I assume is that you seem quick to tell me to behave but aren't so quick to do the same publicly to your buddies...but I think we have had this convo before and it got us now where.

You want to debate then rein them in.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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