Karagin
12/30/06 01:56 AM
70.123.166.36
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No I am not confused...it's simple if you taken all of the flaws out of a mech then it's no longer balanced thus it falls into the Munchkin line of thinking, the must win with all the new toys at all cost.
As for your first one...it you have never played the RPG, then you have missed the fun of bad pilots and gunners and do go check the states again most IS pilots are 4/5 stats...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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NewPharoah_Max
01/02/07 03:36 PM
207.160.205.13
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Karagin, check out my rule ideas I typed (they include additional rules for LAMs) on the General BattleTech forum and my Balancer LAM on the Design forum.
Greetings to you too.
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Karagin
01/02/07 05:03 PM
70.123.166.36
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Okay I will look them over...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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NewPharoah_Max
01/31/07 11:49 AM
207.160.205.13
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Okay, now tell me what you think of them.
Greetings to you too.
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Karagin
01/31/07 07:45 PM
70.123.166.36
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I gave you my input in the LAMs thread.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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JackGarrity
02/01/07 01:27 AM
71.207.203.207
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as far as i remeber 'linked ppcs' is a term from the PC game ive always konwn it as a Alpha strike myself, lams.. are old tech, eh. lot of those are valid points outside of the complaining; overall I've a tendacy to go with a theme for a mech, a concept based around a weapon or design or a modifacation of a exsisting design. wheee
Greetings Mechwarrior.
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Mutig
02/23/07 05:56 AM
68.51.212.233
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In my experience, tech level has virtually no bearing on how long a battle goes on or how it is fought. I have had 3025 era non-lostech medium on medium bouts that only went five rounds before I had downed my target. This was with stock, from the book mechs, not variant, no Yen-Lo-Wang vs. a Hunchback variants. Just your standards Autocannon and a laser packaged against a lases and some missiles package.
One thing that must be said of the ridiculous supperiority designs is they tend to force the other player to adopt strategies other than "I'm on a hill with partial woods! BOOM! Head shot!" Munchkins also occasionally have the ability to deflate the egos of self-important hyper-purists who make sure the Trebuchet in their medium lance has its paint scheme set to perfectly compliment the terrain in which the 3rd Donegal Guards RCT would have operated in in 3028. The pure win modus operandi trumping he pure condecention modus operandi. . . sometimes that is satisfying to see. For all the bluster and self-congratulatory pontificating on the finer points of Battletech history, its occasionally fun to watch Mr. "I am all things Battletech" get tattered by some Warhammer 40k power gamer who thinks Magic sharpens his skills and reaction times and says "el oh el" in daily conversation.
"Load the Spaceship with the rocket fuel!"
Stay Away
From Captain Howdy
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chez
02/23/07 08:55 PM
81.159.192.48
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That sounds like a "Munchkins are cool really" argument which frankly disturbs me.
Seek help
chez
"In order to stab someone in the back it is first necessary to get right behind them" Sir Humphrey Appleby
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Karagin
02/23/07 11:28 PM
70.123.166.36
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Munckins aren't cool, they are the bane of the gaming world.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Mutig
02/24/07 01:10 AM
68.51.212.233
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Cool? No, but not any more obnoxious than the ultra-serious "Its not just a game, its a way of life" type of player who special orders a Vindicator at twice the actual cost so he can complete his individually painted and hand detailed Davion Heavy Guards set containing something to the tune of $850 worth of minatures.
When it comes to being heavy on pathos, I think knowing every modicum of fluff about a game is a little worse than knowing every possible rule loophole.
The reality of the situation is most people seem to have a problem with Munchkins because they appearantly get beaten by them, if that wasn't the case the animosity just wouldn't be there.
Oh, and in case some of you forgot, winning is a component of most games. When last I checked, it wasn't called "Battletech: Fighting to a Draw". Its just this simple. . . in tournament and round-robin play, there is usually a BV cap. If a "Munchkin" shows up with one BV 2500 mech and your 4 mech lance has a BV of 2500, guess who has the advantage? Let me give you a hint, its the guy who isn't contantly having to switch targets and worry about Heat Build Up. If its just casual playing. . . make a similarly munchy mech to compete. If you can't in that kind of scenario. . . you need to reaccess your skills at a player rather than playing the "they have a gear crutch" card.
"Load the Spaceship with the rocket fuel!"
Stay Away
From Captain Howdy
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Cray
02/24/07 09:06 AM
68.200.109.191
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Quote:
The reality of the situation is most people seem to have a problem with Munchkins because they appearantly get beaten by them, if that wasn't the case the animosity just wouldn't be there.
No, it's not so much that they win or not, it's how they're striving to win. Munchkins are people who strive win at all costs, nevermind the spirit of the game or other players' enjoyement.
Certainly BT is generally meant to be won in most scenarios, but there's different ways of getting to that victory lap and not all of them are cool.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
02/24/07 10:59 AM
70.123.166.36
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Good point Cray. It does become a case of the munchkin must win at all cost and will use every loop hole in the game rules or construction rules to get that win.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Toontje
02/24/07 05:12 PM
131.155.214.25
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Muchkin also does not equal good player. They are easilly defeatble in most cases by better use of terrain and formation. In BT, the main type encountered is the custom mech munch, in lead far of the next common, the stock variant munch (munchback etc)
Rather to blow up, then.
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TigerShark
12/01/13 06:10 PM
68.190.197.104
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Venomous thread, here. Good lord. Here's some fun retorts:
You might be a bad BattleTech player if...
(1) You spend your time calling people "Munchkins" instead of improving your game play.
(2) Your armies are poorly made and you rage quit instead of learn why you just took a beating.
(3) You think only some designs should be allowed because you're too lazy or too poor of a player to figure out the rules.
(4) You think it's still 1986 and that anything other than 3025 "isn't BattleTech."
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Karagin
12/01/13 06:16 PM
24.243.178.124
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Hey Tigershark, define your style of play since it does seem that you are doing a good job defending the munchkin players...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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TigerShark
12/01/13 07:26 PM
68.190.197.104
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I play whatever era, whatever type of game. I ran a Clan Homeworlds server for a year and I'm currently running a 2750-era server. Last three table top campaigns I was in or ran were Clan Homeworlds, Jihad (WoB v. Rasalhague Dominion) and a 1986 Boxed Set style campaign with limited resources and StratOps style repairs/frankenmechs.
And I'm not defending 'munchkins'.  I'm saying there's no such thing as a munchkin. However you have fun playing the game, that's how you have fun. The motivation behind my post was to point out the ridiculous attitude people have toward others, as if BT needs to be played one way and one way only. All others are "X type" of players.
It's a poisonous attitude.
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Retry
12/01/13 07:47 PM
67.239.101.65
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Technically there is.
Opening paragraphs from Television Tropes & Idioms on Munchkins:
"Munchkin: One who, on being told that this is a game about politics and intrigue in 17th century Italy, asks to play as a ninja."
— Andrew Rilstone
The Munchkin is the Tabletop RPG player who plays the game to "win" at any cost, even if that isn't the point of the game. Perhaps the most ridiculed Player Archetype of all time, this player is rarely interested in the story behind the game. Indeed, his characters are little more than extensions of his own personality or whatever personality would give him the most pluses.
He sees fighting monsters and solving puzzles only as a means toward more power, more gold, more stuff, more pluses. A Munchkin is not satisfied until he can kill a god with his +25 Dancing Holy Vorpal Sword of Flame. On a Critical Failure. Of course, the combat mechanics is only the most obvious avenue. Munchkins try to hunt for "XP for roleplaying" by being over-the-top dramatic and heaven help you if the game uses Ritual Magic — everything will stop until the word salad cooked up by the Munchkin is resolved. Anything that gives more pluses will be used and abused.
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TigerShark
12/01/13 08:22 PM
68.190.197.104
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Yes, there is. Technically. In the same way a person can be anything if you construct a tailored set of criteria. If you don't like playing with someone, don't.
Edited by TigerShark (12/01/13 08:26 PM)
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Karagin
12/01/13 08:32 PM
24.243.178.124
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So you are saying it's okay for a person to play to win at all cost even if it ruins the game for others? Or it's okay for a player to cheat to win as long as that player is having fun? Last time I checked the game was about ALL players having fun not just a select few.
I personally would not want to play in any game with someone who has to win at all cost or who uses loopholes to win every time they play, nor do I want to play in a game that some one has to cheat to win.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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TigerShark
12/01/13 08:51 PM
68.190.197.104
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"Ruins the game" how? That's a bit relative, isn't it? Explain how the game can be ruined for you, if you don't mind.
EDIT: For me, I dislike 'casual' play. I prefer competitive games where people are competent and do their best to win by choosing a good army and making precise movement. People who play sloppy, joke around, and waste time "ruin the game" for me. Would those people me munchkins?
Edited by TigerShark (12/01/13 09:03 PM)
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Karagin
12/01/13 09:14 PM
24.243.178.124
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They could be. By ruin the game I mean take the fun out of it, those who play to win at all cost do that for me, this is a game about having fun, meeting people etc...then you have folks who cheat to win, example, forget to mark ammo or double marks armor etc...those folks can ruin the fun of the game for me. Those types take the fun out of the game. The power gamer will use every thing they can to win, and if they don't win they make it know very well that it wasn't cause they didn't use this or that, it is always for some other reason. Then the cheaters ruin the game because they take the honesty from again what is a fun time with people who enjoy the game called Battletech.
Define casual play?
Sounds more like you are a power player who wants to win all the time vs someone who wants to have a good time, enjoy the fun and the company.
I like tactical thinking, and I like to have fun at the same time, a small game of a lance vs lance is fine with me as is one that has goal like take the hill on the far side and hold it till the end of the game, each can be equally fun. As for joking around or wasting time, are you sure you are playing BT where more time is wasted rolling dice then anything else?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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TigerShark
12/01/13 09:22 PM
68.190.197.104
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By "wasting time" I refer to people scheduling a meet-up time to play, but constantly being distracted with phone calls, watching others' card or RPG games on another table, or generally not paying attention.
"Casual play" is just that: Casual. Taking out a Monopoly board and just playing to see who wins. I enjoy that when seeing family or goofing off, but I play BattleTech like some people play sports. I enjoy making effective armies and competing against others' abilities to use terrain, make inventive combinations of Mechs/artillery/aero/etc.
We just play for different reasons. I don't see the reason to put labels on things to demean other playstyles different than your own.
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Karagin
12/01/13 11:18 PM
24.243.178.124
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Well players get labels based on how they play, thus folks will have the name munchkin handed to them, it's part of the gaming world.
And as you said we all play different, where as I can go from one off matches that are just for fun to try out some of the new tech or mechs to the type of scenario you described. And yes all of the things you mentioned as wasting time are reasons I dislike tournament or convention play. To much is going on and folks aren't focused and this is the prime ground for the cheaters to flourish in.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ATN082268
12/02/13 05:56 AM
69.21.96.245
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Generally from what I've seen, and ironically, the people who use the munchkin term on others, show worse sportsmanship than the people they label munchkin. It probably involves a few things like a person disliking losing, disliking particular person, disliking a particular tactic/tech, etc but ultimately it is just to cover up a personal shortcoming...
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TigerShark
12/02/13 02:15 PM
68.190.197.104
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That about sums it up, yeah. Getting creamed in a game and blaming the other guy for not making your experience fun. MUST have been his 'Mechs, the use of "cheese," the terrain or some other abuse.
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Karagin
12/02/13 09:15 PM
24.243.178.124
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Wow...glad to know that you two can play with cheaters and others who have to win no matter how they play. I will stick with NOT playing against those kinds of folks.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
12/02/13 10:10 PM
67.239.101.65
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Define:Cheating.
If you are talking about someone who gives you vague specifications like your example in the other thread, or someone who actually breaks the rules, or someone who goes out of the context of whatever scenario to bring in equipment that wasn't even involved in the scenario, I'd agree.
If you are just talking about someone who, as they say, analyzes and plays the game as though it was a sport(as in, doesn't throw up a bunch of crap together and calls it good), you are mistaken. Hell, if someone whined about me every time I made very well thought out decisions and located and used what you call "loopholes"(which 99% of the time is the failure of the rules themselves) to an effect no one imagined could have been done, I wouldn't want to play with them any more than they'd like to play against me. A case could be made that more complex games like Battletech encourages such tournament, sportslike behavior by nature due to the customization and variables compared to, say, checkers.
House-rule and nerf mechs/equipment you find OP. If the alleged munchkin goes to his backup plan of FoTM #2, he may be what you call a munchkin. If he continues to use said combination anyways, he probably legitimately likes the weapon anyways and isn't a munchkin. If other people start to complain about the house ruling other than the munchkin's, it's not the supposed munchkin who is at fault...(You'd better repeal it as well.)
It's worth mentioning that munchkins refer more to an RPG than a tabletop strategy game.
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Karagin
12/02/13 10:31 PM
24.243.178.124
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Mucnhkins can be found in ever game Retry. Cheating covers everything from not marking the ammo down to, or marking off the correct number of armor bubbles when taking damage, or ignoring the heat build up. Those are just some levels of cheat.
As for someone who power games which is the area you are suggesting with your second take, that means they want to win and will do all they can, and that is fine, as long as it doesn't become the must win at all cost using all they can. Playing to win is fine, playing to win at all cost is not.
Then you have the folks who have to have the best of everything, the biggest tank, or mech or ship, with all the toys it can carry and use and it doesn't seem to bother them that no one wants to play BT or any game for that matter with them.
Using something because you like it is fine, using something because you can't play the game with the Targ/Pulse combo or the 1/1 P/G warrior or can't play with having all 100 ton mechs etc..no that to me is a munchkin and someone who is out for their own fun vs the fun of the others in the group.
And as said we each have our take on this...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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TigerShark
12/02/13 10:45 PM
68.190.197.104
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As I play 99% of my games via MegaMek, there's no opportunity for someone to have an inappropriate heat level or incorrect damage subtraction. And on table top, I've never run across someone who's done that. So we just have different gaming experiences.
Yes, I've run across people who will only use the best stuff. I take great joy in beating them. If they're truly difficult to deal with on a personal level, I avoid altogether.
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Karagin
12/02/13 10:54 PM
24.243.178.124
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See I play 99% of my games face to face against actual people, thus you run into all kinds of folks. Given how much complaining I hear from the guys who play COD and the number of cheaters using modified controllers etc..yeah I am sure that there are some in MegaMek who have found ways to cheat.
And the few times I have played via computer, the lag has killed the games more then folks cheating or being munchkin players.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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