dieaready
Corporal
Reged: 11/15/05
Posts: 74
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New IDF system
#163252 - 01/10/12 01:39 AM (218.186.8.12)
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IDF now has to be manually targeted at individual hexes (AI does not fire IDF, or at the most, have an extra option for all arty to target a single hex) and has a flight time based on distance it travels (0 - 20 hexes next turn, 21 - 30 hexes 2 turns later, > 30 hexes 3 turns later). Artillery shells suffer shell deviation based on to-hit rolls, so IDF units won't be able to accurately hit a specific hex all the time, but if they are very skilled they get a better chance of hitting (hit anywhere from 1 - 5 hexes away).
IDF now deals splash damage (IDF 2 splashes 2 dmg to everything in the hex, IDF 5 splashes 5 dmg to hex, IDF 10 splashes 10 dmg to hex and 5 dmg to surrounding hexes, IDF 20 splashes 20 dmg to hex, 10 dmg to surrounding hexes and 5 dmg to hexes after that [maybe]). IDF will damage all units in game, so they will be much harder to use for fear of friendly fire.
Advantages:
1. Massed snipers will no longer be an issue as they won't be able to hit moving units (unless you are good at predicting movement).
2. IDF still useful against towers and especially useful against tower clusters.
3. IDF could possibly be useful against those dreaded hunter/grd swarms.
4. IDF requires more player input, so less of them would be used overall.
Of course all the numbers up there are not fixed, but are to give an idea of how it would work.
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In the land of the Insane, the Sane man is Crazy.
If Brute Force does not work, you are not using enough.
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Darkseraphim
Newbie
Reged: 12/31/09
Posts: 6
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Re: New IDF system
[Re: dieaready]
#163253 - 01/10/12 02:21 AM (62.143.139.145)
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i like the idea
my suggestion for this would be to keep the spread of fire like large range like 9 hexes around declared hex; medium 6 ; close 3. so u it´s harder to kill everything/crit everything before it´s in range. and fire will allways be heavier the closer u came to the enemy. the splash sounds rly good and can be easy implemented on the base of shrapnells of explosions so no big thing to code. adding u might pump up the bv costs of SNP´s so no mass bombardement could be made with batts of snipers. amount of towers could be depending on pop in zone. so u wont have those bottlenecks filled with hundrets of towers fighting through and the opponent HAVE to face his enemy with troops if he wants to get him out of his citys. and that bigger citys are better deffed than a village in the desert is the normal way u´d allways focus on your capitol.
sry for my freaking english ^^
good day
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cbtgod
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 1813
Loc: IN A BOX UNDER A HOUSE
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Re: New IDF system
[Re: Darkseraphim]
#163255 - 01/10/12 04:15 AM (173.168.109.218)
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IDF now has to be manually targeted at individual hexes (AI does not fire IDF, or at the most, have an extra option for all arty to target a single hex) uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh huhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh so idf will be 100% a joke if im not on or a bper? i read this right. lmao l8rs DABOSS
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yes its a toad, if you didnt know that you dont know anything about cbt
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Darkseraphim
Newbie
Reged: 12/31/09
Posts: 6
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Re: New IDF system
[Re: cbtgod]
#163256 - 01/10/12 04:42 AM (62.143.139.145)
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yeh ok missed to make a note to this one
>IDF now has to be manually targeted at individual hexes (AI does not fire IDF, or at the most, have an extra option for all arty to target a single hex) and has a flight time based on distance it travels (0 - 20 hexes next turn, 21 - 30 hexes 2 turns later, > 30 hexes 3 turns later).<
i´d just let ai fire on target units as well as players no hex markers ( even it could be a possiblity for later to implement, but first we want to make stuff more balanced) and the flight time should be at long range + 1 round max
wouldnt make sense if those would hit 3 turns later and rockets also only take no time to fly 21 hex
aat least enemies are spottet and no hopping for them to stand still for 3 turns
true
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Tigre
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 02/10/03
Posts: 1833
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Re: New IDF system
[Re: Darkseraphim]
#163257 - 01/10/12 05:04 AM (216.130.147.106)
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Hard to code, bigger issues out there, just remove IDF. . .
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- Tigre
Ipsa Scientia Potestas Est
- Francis Bacon
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Darkseraphim
Newbie
Reged: 12/31/09
Posts: 6
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Re: New IDF system
[Re: Tigre]
#163258 - 01/10/12 05:08 AM (62.143.139.145)
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the only thing hard to code is the random hit around the target
the rest is allready existing in slightly other form
and the 1 round later hit for artillerie is just a gimmic not needed and at least done by nevlags itself :-P
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Tigre
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 02/10/03
Posts: 1833
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Re: New IDF system
[Re: Darkseraphim]
#163259 - 01/10/12 05:13 AM (216.130.147.106)
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But coding it not to fire on AI (which is already balky) and coding hexes as targets (all snipers would be used for is targeting towers or repair facilities.). . . I don't like the idea. Just remove IDF. . .
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- Tigre
Ipsa Scientia Potestas Est
- Francis Bacon
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Darkseraphim
Newbie
Reged: 12/31/09
Posts: 6
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Re: New IDF system
[Re: Tigre]
#163261 - 01/10/12 05:29 AM (62.143.139.145)
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said so that´s just for maybe later not for now, right now we just want to have it get ballanced without getting lost of unit´s researches thousands of RP´s billions of funds and a main part of nearly everyones def which i guess. i think just removing the idf at all is way to hard for the game and just modding it is way to keep game more variable. just make it a bit weaker and/or more expansive
so there are no thousand rounds hitting and critting u each turn.
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Baroness
Newbie
Reged: 12/22/11
Posts: 3
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Re: New IDF system
[Re: Darkseraphim]
#163262 - 01/10/12 05:54 AM (84.128.249.127)
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I think that discussion makes minor sence! We have much bigger problems then IDF!!! If you have problems with Sniper or towers: just use Hovers! Or implement VTOL! Both will not be hit by IDF! Or just fast Mechs! The real world will not remove artillery only because they do damage to the opponent. Each system has a weakness, and IDF in useless against speed. Just stop crying and find the right weapon to fight IDF with! And the variaty of multiple choices makes war interessting!
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dieaready
Corporal
Reged: 11/15/05
Posts: 74
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Re: New IDF system
[Re: Baroness]
#163273 - 01/11/12 03:36 AM (218.186.8.11)
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coding in the deviation isn't that big of an issue. its just several lines of code:
1. select hex (maybe use a select hex system based on the move orders command)
2. x = (roll 2d6 (standard attack roll) - skill level)
3. if x > 8, hits target hex, if 6 < x < 8, y = roll 1d6, else if 4 < x < 2, roll 1d12, else if x = 3, roll 1d18, etc (which hex it hits)
anyway, coding issues aside, the point of this is to make IDF used sparingly instead of just throwing snipers into a zone then retreating when the enemy gets close. and this would also make IDF towers useless for defense, so we should not have the issue of having to toss hunters into IDF tower defended zones to drain the IDF towers of ammo.
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In the land of the Insane, the Sane man is Crazy.
If Brute Force does not work, you are not using enough.
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Tigre
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 02/10/03
Posts: 1833
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Re: New IDF system
[Re: dieaready]
#163275 - 01/11/12 05:17 AM (216.130.147.106)
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you would have to balance it though Dieaready. If you take away AI fired IDF towers, then snipers just kill towers, period, especially in non-flat zones where direct fire towers and units don't get LOS. A batt of snipers with a few pilots (don't need to move, just target and fire) and a raven would clear any zone that doesn't have pilots online. We want to drive player on player fights, not automatic offense wins over AI. Want to fight AI? Get SM to keep working on quests.
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- Tigre
Ipsa Scientia Potestas Est
- Francis Bacon
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ghostrider
Lieutenant
Reged: 03/26/10
Posts: 522
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Re: New IDF system
[Re: Tigre]
#163282 - 01/11/12 01:14 PM (70.173.25.223)
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The flight times is still a good start, but make it all the same. Nev doesnt use variable powder shells to hit units, so it has the same power when firing straight out, straight up, or anywheres in between. To hit something close, you need to fire up more. further, lower.
The actual to hit should be higher, maybe like city idf which is 10+. That should be the best hit. As was stated, idf targets hexes, not units. Units should need a set up time and a tear down time, so they would have to stop firing, retract the stabilizer legs, and pack up to avoid being in combat. They would still be useful, but enough of a hassle to limit their use.
And tigre. player vs player could very well be done, its just players dont want to inform their targets they will hit them at x time. This entails players being ready to hit the attackers bv, which means losses no matter what. Thats something players dont want. Otherwise, code it so you cannt hit someone that isnt online.
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TRK
Sergeant Major
Reged: 11/05/02
Posts: 254
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Re: New IDF system
[Re: ghostrider]
#163285 - 01/11/12 01:43 PM (208.118.89.26)
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Just remove it. Golly, all these new rules to fix something. It is rediculous.
ghostrider, are you sure you are not Randy?
And yes, every single vet out there wants to pummel noobs, raze empires and lose nothing. Every single one of them thinks like this and that is all there is to it. Despite us arguing till we are blue in the face to the contrary.
Think of it like this. There is a video game you really enjoy playing. You get to level 32 of the dungeon and you just cant make it by the dragon. So, you look up some cheats. GODMODE, YEAH! Five minutes later you stop playing and never pick it up again. Why? Too easy. Not fun anymore.
I really wish you would STFU about this crap, enough already.
Edited by TRK (01/11/12 01:48 PM)
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Tigre
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 02/10/03
Posts: 1833
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Re: New IDF system
[Re: TRK]
#163291 - 01/11/12 02:43 PM (216.130.147.106)
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Finally, someone who agrees with me to just remove IDF!!!!
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- Tigre
Ipsa Scientia Potestas Est
- Francis Bacon
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buc
Captain
Reged: 08/12/05
Posts: 710
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Re: New IDF system
[Re: TRK]
#163293 - 01/11/12 02:52 PM (210.86.1.168)
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IMO, either remove IDF completely, or reduce it to AC range. AC range IDF would be the easiest change, surely only several lines of code to change.
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dieaready
Corporal
Reged: 11/15/05
Posts: 74
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Re: New IDF system
[Re: Tigre]
#163298 - 01/12/12 02:14 AM (218.186.8.11)
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Quote:
you would have to balance it though Dieaready. If you take away AI fired IDF towers, then snipers just kill towers, period, especially in non-flat zones where direct fire towers and units don't get LOS. A batt of snipers with a few pilots (don't need to move, just target and fire) and a raven would clear any zone that doesn't have pilots online. We want to drive player on player fights, not automatic offense wins over AI. Want to fight AI? Get SM to keep working on quests.
true, hadn't thought of that. probably can take out the bit about not firing on ai then. even then, zones should be defended by both towers and vees in the first place for a proper defence, so you shouldn't be able to just shell the towers from a distance anyway.
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In the land of the Insane, the Sane man is Crazy.
If Brute Force does not work, you are not using enough.
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Malachi
Sergeant Major
Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 369
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Re: New IDF system
[Re: dieaready]
#163299 - 01/12/12 06:25 AM (109.246.129.160)
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Remove IDF, shorten the range multis on towers, maybe give extra 25% or extra 50% as a max so they can engage Rhinos/Nemis etc but not completely smash normal units.
This would remove the necessity for IDF.
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cbtgod
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 1813
Loc: IN A BOX UNDER A HOUSE
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Re: New IDF system
[Re: Malachi]
#163301 - 01/12/12 07:32 AM (173.168.109.218)
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and our own military today dsnt use it? so will i get the rps back for the vechs i researched that have idf? just curious. an now since you have taken away all these vechs what about alllllllllllll the empires with the idf vechs in them what do you guys suggest gets done to refund the costs of these items? i wont hold my breath on this. you guys think idf is bad lets add swarm ammo. hmmmmmm how about arrow 4? why not add inferno rounds that just out right kill vech crews but lv the vech ok? how about in direct targeting so i can fire around hills like in cbt? lol nev is way vanilla then CBT. so from what i hear maybe in 2-3 yrs this stuff might get looked at. l8rs DABOSS
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yes its a toad, if you didnt know that you dont know anything about cbt
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TRK
Sergeant Major
Reged: 11/05/02
Posts: 254
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Re: New IDF system
[Re: cbtgod]
#163304 - 01/12/12 09:44 AM (208.118.89.26)
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Anyone with half a brain will tell you. You dont own Neveron. You dont OWN anything on Neveron. Things can be taken away and given as SM pleases. Expecting compensation for rules changes to balance the game is just douchy. IIRC we got zip for infantry, but I could be wrong.
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cbtgod
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 1813
Loc: IN A BOX UNDER A HOUSE
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Re: New IDF system
[Re: TRK]
#163308 - 01/12/12 10:24 AM (173.168.109.218)
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well thank god i have a brain and half by IQ tests. the point is for the new player that may have donated to get the cash for his snipers or what ever idf vech he wanted now its sooo sad to bad you get nothing for that stuff im sorry to bad? neveron is a bizz 1st to sm. new players are the main stay of income for neveron. not saying that vets dont donate. once you get your empires set you really dont need to donate as much? taking away every single thing a player could poss use to defend his empire while asleep or god forbide at work ,is beyond any type or real post changes for the game. as far as me being a douche. you were not on my x-mas list anyway lol. l8rs DABOSS
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yes its a toad, if you didnt know that you dont know anything about cbt
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TRK
Sergeant Major
Reged: 11/05/02
Posts: 254
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Re: New IDF system
[Re: cbtgod]
#163309 - 01/12/12 10:34 AM (208.118.89.26)
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I didnt say you were a douche, I said it was douchy to expect compensation for rules changes. Could be everyone (but me) that plays for all I know.
And yes, too bad so sad, here's a straw, suck it up.
If a player buys something in an online game then that item gets nerfed, do they get compensation?
NO.
Aint gunna happen.
If it does, I have long **** lists of stuff I have lost that I shouldnt have. Yes, due to bugs and no fault of my own. 100's of REAL LIFE dollars in DP mechs.
So yeah a noob can STFU about his 4 DP for a sniper.
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Malachi
Sergeant Major
Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 369
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Re: New IDF system
[Re: cbtgod]
#163310 - 01/12/12 10:39 AM (109.246.129.160)
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Our own military doesn't use mechs. Want to take them out too? Thats the most retarded argument ever. In the real world the heaviest guns also have the heaviest punch, they don't hit with the power of a machine gun burst. We have guided artillery shells. We have vehicle mounted missiles that can hit targets at ranges of 70km. We have UAVs that allow us to see all the battlefield. We have infantry carrying equipment that can knock out a tank in one shot, and tank armaments that do the same. Do you want these things? Probably not, because they don't make for a fun game.
All the tanks are auto-scrapped. No refund on research, no refund on anything. OR the only 2 vehicles that have no direct fire varient are simply changed to carry 4 AC-2s in place of 2 IDF-2s and 2 AC-5s rather than 1 IDF-5.
I would honestly say that the best idea would be to leave all indirect fire capabilities out of the game. Yes this makes the game more "2D" but at the same time it makes it more interesting.
Do you really NEED any of the things you have mentioned, or are you just trying to **** at the owner because hes not moving fast enough?
As previously stated, reduce the range multies a little on towers and you reduce the need for IDF. If you complain again about the whole I'm at work etc all I can say is don't play a perpetual game.
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cbtgod
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 1813
Loc: IN A BOX UNDER A HOUSE
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Re: New IDF system
[Re: Malachi]
#163311 - 01/12/12 11:35 AM (173.168.109.218)
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act a bionic suit is in the works right now? lmao allows a foot soldier to carry 400 lbs with out any type of fatigue. although not a mech it is the 1st step to getting one done prob 1st line mechs will be small like the ones in avatar. trk and malachi so uhhhhhhhhhh sm wants to nerf 1k zones. you spent dp on this. and now it so sad to bad? i think not the **** storm that would start i can assure you it would be an ohhh well to bad sit. ive played alot of mmos, and mmo-rts games and act id say you are right and wrong, about 75% of them do some kind of compensation for major game changes. so im sorry i dont like change and want to have to redo everything for what seems a small % of players wanting massive changes. if i wanted to **** at SM id just call him. i dont see any real problems with idf. the major issue is ranges which have to be looked at. the weapon it self isnt a nev killer as people seem to make it out to be. i remeber a time poeple did the same thing with troops in this game. so we adapted after they got nerferd, and never replaced. you guys make the idf weapon to sound like the death star in star wars? l8rs DABOSS
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yes its a toad, if you didnt know that you dont know anything about cbt
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TRK
Sergeant Major
Reged: 11/05/02
Posts: 254
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Re: New IDF system
[Re: cbtgod]
#163313 - 01/12/12 11:50 AM (208.118.89.26)
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Not even going to bother to respond to that nonsense daboss.
Do yourself a favour and learn some English.
I need an ignore button...
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cbtgod
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 1813
Loc: IN A BOX UNDER A HOUSE
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Re: New IDF system
[Re: TRK]
#163316 - 01/12/12 12:07 PM (173.168.109.218)
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goo goo gah goo?
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yes its a toad, if you didnt know that you dont know anything about cbt
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ghostrider
Lieutenant
Reged: 03/26/10
Posts: 522
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Re: New IDF system
[Re: cbtgod]
#163318 - 01/12/12 11:04 PM (70.173.25.223)
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thought they had submersival exoskeleton. That might be considered the beginings of a mech.
I agree with daboss on the fact it seems like people wanna remove the ability of someone to defend themselves.
Idf in its current form needs change. Pull it out, change how it works, doesnt matter. I just need fixing. Really think making it take x rounds to hit the target hex, and maybe shorten the range of them would be the best thing to do. Make it hit on 10+ with skill level 0-3, 11+ with skill 4-6, and 12s with 7-8. That woulkd be for the target hex, not anything in there. Do like btech with the arrow IV and it damages units in the hex on a 4+. Splash damage would be good as well, though with the current ai, this might be a bad thing, since it likes stacking lots of units in one hex.
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Malachi
Sergeant Major
Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 369
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Re: New IDF system
[Re: ghostrider]
#163319 - 01/13/12 02:43 AM (109.246.129.160)
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If the attacker can't use it, and the defender can't use it then whats the problem?
If the attacker doesn't need to counter a huge range tower, then its relatively decent. The defender still knows the terrain, can plan defences accordingly and outnumber the attacker. I am not saying remove towers, so you can still build very nasty defences but with the change that both sides have to see each other to engage. If I was a defender I would also be thinking about how to set up very nasty units such as demolishers in holes on the map.
As a defender this gets away somewhat from a huge cluster of towers in the centre of the map, or a corner if you are walled/cored. There would be no benefit to cookie cutter defences such as this because both sides need to see each other.
This is not a question of translation of real world technology. I am aware of the exoskeletons being developed, I am also aware of their unwieldiness and lack of stamina. Anything developed in the next 50-100 I am still confident could be engaged and destroyed by a fin (sabot for you yanks) round from a current MBT.
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TRK
Sergeant Major
Reged: 11/05/02
Posts: 254
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Re: New IDF system
[Re: ghostrider]
#163321 - 01/13/12 10:01 AM (208.118.89.26)
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Quote:
I agree with daboss on the fact it seems like people wanna remove the ability of someone to defend themselves.
Wouldn’t that include themselves ghostrider? Or are you going to come up with some other excuse that we vets use in that scenario? Go ahead, get your paper and pencil out and grab 4 hours and try to make a comprehensible argument. You won’t, you never will, give up on this perceived one-sidedness, it is all in your head.
P.S. SM can change all the rules he wants to make things "fair". Not only we will have a castrated game, but you are still going to be bitching about how the new changes favor the noob over you. Or whatever lame argument you can come up with.
Maybe learn how to play, then you wouldn't have to **** about how unfair everything is.
Edited by TRK (01/13/12 10:05 AM)
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ghostrider
Lieutenant
Reged: 03/26/10
Posts: 522
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Re: New IDF system
[Re: TRK]
#163322 - 01/13/12 10:26 AM (70.173.25.223)
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Low level lw empires dont have any real defence except hd only tents. Now if you remove the ability of non lw to defend themselves with any but mech, well i guess that will make it that much easier to avoid scratching the paint on your mechs. I mean being able to kill the best tanks in the game with one hit isnt bad enough, but now you wanna make sure they dont have that.
Remember someone saying something about having options in the game, but i really see the removal of options by people like trk here.
Guess you couldnt sell your empires. either that, or you are still trolling the forums.
sheesh. another threadjacked conversation.
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TRK
Sergeant Major
Reged: 11/05/02
Posts: 254
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Re: New IDF system
[Re: ghostrider]
#163323 - 01/13/12 10:40 AM (208.118.89.26)
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Everyone wants to have fun. Bottom line. Some people are never going to be happy with the rules because they will continue to lose. Not because of rules, but because they cant play.
You are attacking people in the first place ghostrider, you brought it on yourself. No trolling involved. Get a grip.
I dont think we need a new IDF system. Just remove it. Very few people seem to be defending it.
Of course this "unblances" things in people's eyes, but whatever, it is never going to be balanced the way you want it to be ghostrider. You seem to want to be able to do the same thing, never get a scratch on your mech or lose a unit. I think you are just jealous of some poeple's skills in this game. You **** and moan about how unfair it is because you will never be as good as them, thats what really bothers you isnt it?
For the record, I have lost countless mechs and armored vehicles. I dont care if I lose units, all I want to do is have fun again.
I only put one empire up for sale. It is none of your business anyways so STFU about it.
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