Rules Question

BattleTech : Board Game Previous Index Next Threaded
Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1 | 2 | (show all)
Nightward
12/29/04 01:20 AM
203.214.145.95

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
The Draconis Combine deployed the first Inner Sphere OmniMech, the Raptor in time for TR: 3058. They started exporting the Blackjack and Firestarter OmniMechs to the other Great Houses, who used the designs to crash-start their own OmniMech deployment schedule. The FWLM deployed the Perseus in 3059, with other OmniMechs (the Arctic Fox co-developed with the ARDC and WiE, the Hauptmann and the Men Shen) appearing in TR: 3060. The Templar is a newer development, somewehere around 3065 IIRC.

Personally, I think Tancred traded down when he swapped his Nightstar for a Templar. Those things blow. TC, great. R-A/Cs, great. Dumb-arse weapons profiles, 3/5 movement, unimpressive arour and an XL Engine? Not so great.

The only Omnis worth your time and effort are the Raptor (ER Medium Laser variant, TR 3060), the Men Shen (vicious in all incarnations) and the ER Laser variant on the Firestarter. For just about everything else, there's a standard 'Mech that's at least as good, if not far better.

The IS Omnis were still built with the "jack of all Trades" ideal for the most part, and so carry a grab-bag of weapons which may or may not be really up to scratch.

Personally, I steer clear of Level 3. All the toys you really need are available at Level 2; optional extras like Null Signature and Targeting can be added on according to fluff (Exterminator gets Null Sig, Rifleman gets anti-Air, etc).

Designing things at Level 3 could be interesting, but it becomes a major twinkfest as the power creep issue kicks into overdrive. If you allow open slather with the Level 3 tech, be prepared for the fallout...
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
Silenced_Sonix
12/30/04 02:52 PM
168.209.97.34

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Question: is there not already a Firestarter Mech in use by the Inner Sphere? Thirty-five tons, armed with a bunch of flamers and fancy electronics? Why another 'Mech with the same name?
Evolve or Die


Edited by Silenced_Sonix (12/30/04 02:56 PM)
chez
12/30/04 02:58 PM
62.173.81.122

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
One thing I have noticed is the prevarication of multiple Gauss Rifle assault mechs eg Nightstar hauptman, pillager, devastator. This to me seems strange as the IS discovered that mobile warefare was the only way to beat the clans. To design mechs that inherently are going to be tied to long supply lines (some light years long) seems to be a flawed design from the onset. i would have thought faster, medium weight energy boats would have been the way to go .
Slow assault mechs are gagging to outmanouvered, outflanked or just plain outfought by hit-and-run slashing attacks by mobile energy platforms that can afford to move 10plus hexes and still fire 1 or 2 ERLL/ERPPC from the limit of long range (which exceeds the GR's range).
Like I have said before I do play LVL2 just not often. I prefer the grittiness of LVL1 as the mechs are so balanced it becomes a true test of tactical skill on the battlefield as regardless of the mechs chosen both players are fully aware of it's (and any variants) capabilities and deal with it accordingly.
This whole thread came about because of a battle that I lost at the choosing of forces stage not on the battlefield itself which is nigh on impossible to do at LVL1 .
I suppose all that is required would be to impose restrictions on the types of forces used within the weight limit (I don't use BV,CV C-Bills or any other equivalent) but that was something we didn't need to do at LV1 and so haven't got into the habit of doing.
On the plus side a campaign in the FedCom civil war looks really interesting and with my renewed faith in the 3050plus galaxy I shall take to it with gusto.

Now, anyone want to try and talk me into MWDA (joke, don't know anything about it)

chez
"In order to stab someone in the back it is first necessary to get right behind them" Sir Humphrey Appleby
Nightward
12/30/04 03:18 PM
203.214.145.241

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
In actuality, the Gauss Rifle is the only IS weapon that even gets close to matching its Clan counterpart; same damage, same range, same heat...3 tons heavier and a little larger crit-wise. The Nightstar and Pillager are both vicious, vicious machines (especially the Nightstar) and the Thunderhawk (particularly the TDK-7KMA) is nasty as well.

Although these designs aren't massively mobile, they can take a beating and dish it out as well. The idea appears to be concentrated damage from range. Although you can't beat the Clans at their own game, having a Thunderhawk or whatever snipe whilst skirmishers (such as Nightskys) close in makes for a devastating assualt.

Mediums, whilst fast, don't provide enough advantages. Clan pilots are usually able to hit units that rely on speed instead of armour; these units are typically also a bit light on for weapons and so can't do much against Clan 'Mechs with their heavier armour.

Basically, a Clan Light is the rough equal of an IS Medium, a Clan Medium is the rough equal of an IS Heavy, and there are very few Clan Heavies that can't paste IS Assualts.

BVs aren't a bad way of balancing forces, but after conversations wth Greyslayer at the last tournament we played in, I'm really starting to agree with him that BV only works by eras. So, when you play a game, put an upper limit on tech bases that can be uses- limit it to Level One tech, 3058 tech, or 3058+ tech.

As he pointed out, a Wraith is worth less BVs than a Level 1 Griffin...

Sonix: The Firestarter is indeed a 35-ton arson machine. The FS9-O Firestrter OmniMech appears in TR: 3058 and is a 45-ton OmniMech. It was built (like the BlackJack Omni) to take advantage of existing production capabilities in the other Successor states; factories producing Firestarters could be upgraded to produce the new FS9-O series instead.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
Silenced_Sonix
01/02/05 12:43 PM
168.209.97.34

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Yes, sorry on that question: I checked it out myself after posting and found the answer pretty plausible. My bad.
Evolve or Die
Nightward
01/02/05 02:04 PM
203.214.145.117

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Eh. Not everyone has an encyclopaediac knowledge about BT.

On the other hand, I couldn't learn the Krebs Cycle at Uni despite four years of effort, so it's not all that great a claim to fame any way.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
Silenced_Sonix
01/02/05 03:31 PM
168.209.97.34

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Krebs? That is quite easy, actually. Did it in my last year of school.

In the sitosol surrounding the mitochondria, 2 ATP is used to spilt the glucose molekule (6-Carbon) into two 3-Carbon molecules, which, in turn, each release 2 ATP molecules. At the end of this phase, you have 2 3-C molecules and 2 free ATP.

In the second cycle, the 3-C molecule now loses one of its carbons in the form of released CO2, and joins the 4-C molecule inside the Krebs to make another 6-C molecule. This is then also broken down, bit by bit, by releasing H-atoms (to form ATP and NADH2) and CO2 (thus reducing the carbon-count in the molecule). By the time it has just 4 carbons left, it is joined by another 2-C bond from outside, and the cycle simply starts over.

Bleh... I am not trying to be a wise-ass, but I though I would share that with you.
"Keep da faith, Brother!"
Evolve or Die
Nightward
01/02/05 09:04 PM
203.214.147.120

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Dude. I have a degree in Biochemistry.

The complexity comes in when you're expected to be able to diagram the cycle, name every single molecule involved (including enzymes and their co-factors), as well as be able to draw most of them (using standard organic chemistry conventions).

Just to keep things amusing, we were expected to be able to know what metabolic disorders could occur if certain parts of the cycle couldn't be carried out.

There's an entire second-year subject devoted to it. I spent 6 months going over the Kreb's Cycle in excruciating detail.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
Wraith
01/02/05 09:06 PM
68.67.32.114

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
On the Nightstar vs. Templar: NSR-9J is 3/5 with an XL engine. I don't like the Templar much, but just had to comment that the Nightstar has some failings as well.
-Wraith
Nightward
01/02/05 10:21 PM
203.214.147.120

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
The Nightstar has full armour for its size, and wields 2 Gauss Cannon, an ER PPC, and two Medium Pulse Lasers. I'd back it over the Templar any day of the week.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
Nightward
01/02/05 10:22 PM
203.214.147.120

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
The Nightstar has full armour for its size, and wields 2 Gauss Cannon, an ER PPC, and two Medium Pulse Lasers. I'd back it over the Templar any day of the week.

The Templar's weapons configurations are set up funny. The newer Tancred and the other one from TR: 3067 were better, but the base models presented in FM: FedSuns were pretty iffy.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
Wraith
01/02/05 10:28 PM
68.67.32.114

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
I agree, Nightstar is better...

Just noticed, HMP shows Templar as moving 4/6, sometimes 4/6/4. Especially the jumping could give it an edge in some situations, although unless it was Neveron I'd rather have a NSR.
-Wraith
Nightward
01/02/05 11:13 PM
203.214.147.120

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Is it? I thought the Templar was a 3/5'er...

That makes the Templar better in my opinion, but still down the list as far as Assualts go.

Best assualt (IMO) goes to the Viking, with the Hauptmann not far behind.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
Toontje
01/03/05 05:30 AM
84.24.165.226

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Viking is the 100t LRM boat, right? I don't fancy that one much, it's too vulnerable to close assault type thingies like the Ti Ts'ang. Would have killed 2 of them in 2 mediumscale battles if it where not for time contraints, and that while it was supported by sufficient numbers of mediums and heavies. At range it's scary but I prefer to trade my Ti Ts'ang for it to take it out, and come out ahead BV-cost wise.

But maybe you gotta love the Lyran mentality to combat to love most of their 'mechs.
Rather to blow up, then.
Greyslayer
01/03/05 08:02 AM
216.14.192.234

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Viking is a support unit. Its not meant to go toe-to-toe to short-ranged units. Both would work WELL together though.

Of course talking about BV few would crack up to the O-Bakemono, unless you start fielding units with TAG or C3 Master units (BV penalties then)
Toontje
01/03/05 08:31 AM
84.24.165.226

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Wasn't meant to, but both occasions I describe saw it in action with enough support that one would expect no remotely succesfull headhunter attempt. It's just too high-profile IMO, with insufficient intrisical support.
Rather to blow up, then.
Wraith
01/03/05 08:41 AM
68.67.32.114

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
I am a big fan of the Pillager-3Z and the Cerberus MR-5M. Both are mobile for their size (3/5/3 and 4/6, respectively). Lots of armor on both, and decent weaponry.

I piloted a Viking once, there are some awesome upgrades to it if your unit survives against the Clans... Mine was stock and took out a pristine Sunder at range 21 (3 missile clusters to the head works every time ) The VKG-2G would be a nice bodyguard for the VKG-2F, as it packs a LPLAS, 3 MPLAS, LB-10X, and Gauss Rifle. Also gets max armor for a 90 tonner.
-Wraith
Greyslayer
01/03/05 09:49 AM
216.14.192.234

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Don't get me wrong, I think if you truly want something to throw LRMs downrange then perhaps resources would be better spent on a vehicle to do so.

No Heatsinks required to keep the unit firing, 360o arc of fire with a Turret. Under Level 3 rules Tanks also become far more dangerous so something like the LRM variant of the Partisan with 4 x LRM15s just sits back and enjoys the pounding it hands out. Oh and its fairly cheap too in BV.

Also remember most LRM units prefer to fire indirect, I find vehicles better for this since they only need to hide behind a level 1 hill rather than find more secluded spots.
Nightward
01/03/05 02:42 PM
203.214.145.185

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
The reason I'm a fan of the Viking is the fact that it's got a Standard engine and a powerful loadout. The variant form is dangerous, and just as attractive as the LRM standard version.

either way, you don't particularly want to see a Viking as opfor.

As well as that, the Viking is the first time a dedicated LRM assualt 'Mech was built right. Other attempts, like the Salamander and so on are not bad, perhaps, but as a package deal don't measure up.

In that last tournament we saw how effective Elite pilots in LRM boats can be; I think it was Rod who took the Stalker with a 0/1 pilot. I just about shat myself when I discovered he only needed 7s to hit the BNC-3S Banshee I'd parked in his rear arc with two LRM-20s...

Blarg. The Viking fits my tactics a bit better than other assualts. When I field anything that heavy, I look for:

-Standard engine.
-Full armour.
-CASE.
-Good weapon vs heat ratio.

Not many Assualts match up to that. The ones that are able to control their heat often don't have armour that's too flash, or feature XL engines.

As for the Cerberus?

2 tons of explosive ammo mounted in the Centre Torso. Gauss Cannon adjacent to IS XL engines. Poor arm and leg armour. 'Nuff said...
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
Silenced_Sonix
01/03/05 02:53 PM
168.209.97.34

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
You guys obviously have a lot of experience in the field, so I would appreciate it if you could give me an opinion on on this design: the Imperius. It started as a sketch in one of my notebooks, and then grew into a challenge to see if I could fit everything from the picture into the chassis. Given your (expert) opinion, how would it fare in comparison to other assault designs that you have used?

Imperius (B)

Chassis: Unknown
Power Plant: Unknown 300
Cruising Speed: 32.25
Maximum Speed: 53.75
Jump Jets: none
Jump Capacity: none
Armor: Unknown with CASE
Armament:
2 Gauss Rifles
2 LRM 20s
2 Machine Guns
4 ER Medium Lasers
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown


Imperius

Technology Base: - Clan - Level 3 (Omni-Mech)
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: - EndoSteel 5
Engine: 300 19
Walking MP: 3
Running MP: 5
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: 14(28) - Laser 4
Gyro: 3
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: 304 19

Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 9
Center Torso 31 46
Center Torso(rear) 15
R/L Torso 21 32
R/L Torso(rear) 10
R/L Arm 17 34
R/L Leg 21 41

Weapons and Ammo Location Critical Tonnage
[Pod] ER Medium Laser LA 1 1
[Pod] ER Medium Laser LA 1 1
[Pod] Gauss Rifle Ammo LA 2 2
[Pod] Machine Gun Ammo (1/2 ton) LA 1 0.5
[Pod] Gauss Rifle LT 6 12
[Pod] LRM 20 LT 4 5
[Pod] LRM 20 Ammo - Artemis IV LT 1 1
Artemis IV LT 1 1
[Pod] Gauss Rifle RT 6 12
[Pod] LRM 20 RT 4 5
[Pod] LRM 20 Ammo - Artemis IV RT 1 1
Artemis IV RT 1 1
[Pod] ER Medium Laser RA 1 1
[Pod] ER Medium Laser RA 1 1
[Pod] Gauss Rifle Ammo RA 2 2
[Pod] Machine Gun CT 1 0.25
[Pod] Machine Gun CT 1 0.25
Evolve or Die
Nightward
01/03/05 04:07 PM
203.214.145.185

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
That's what the Designs forum is for, Sonix. I'll C&P this and my comments on it over there.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
Silenced_Sonix
01/05/05 01:20 PM
168.209.97.34

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Sorry - my bad.
Evolve or Die
chez
01/05/05 03:14 PM
62.173.81.122

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Quote:

Don't get me wrong, I think if you truly want something to throw LRMs downrange then perhaps resources would be better spent on a vehicle to do so.

Yeah big time!! Any saving in BV could be used on something small and nippy to carry a NARC launcher, such as a hovercraft or VTOL - the choice is yours. At lvl1 I use LRM carriers a lot as a sort of on board artillery. Their armour is naff but a whole lance means 240 LRMs in the air at once. You gotta love that!
When it comes to assault design so few of the stock designs actually are anywhere near "maxed out". I suppose this is to allow player tweaking and room for expansion with new variants etc.
It doesn't take much to create a design at the top end of the weight spectrum that would be absolutely lethal against any book design eg Daishi-X megamunch, son of project Overkill.
Having seen the specs for the Viking it looks close to a really tight design but as stated , it's not an in-fighter so it doesn't look as munchy as a tweaked Hunchback's big brother
chez
"In order to stab someone in the back it is first necessary to get right behind them" Sir Humphrey Appleby
NewPharoah
12/06/06 03:33 PM
207.160.205.13

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
An ECM VTOL would work against the drone.
Any rules I type should be considered unofficial unless stated otherwise by Precentor Martial Randall Bills and/or published Classic BattleTech products.


Edited by NewPharoah (12/06/06 03:34 PM)
Pages: 1 | 2 | (show all)

Extra information
0 registered and 5 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  Nic Jansma, Cray, mattbuck, Frabby, BobTheZombie 

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Topic views: 10178


Contact Admins Sarna.net