Kit_fox
Colonel
Reged: 09/16/02
Posts: 3054
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Massive Empire Solution
#124681 - 01/30/06 04:03 PM (129.138.30.190)
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Randy and neveron in general have a problem. Massive empires. Not so much that they exist, so much as they have near limitless resourses when compaired to other empires. Level 10+ empires just make so much money that they can throw it around like it was nothing. It is a problem for the game, and one that I think is what randy is trying to curb in addition to the whole growth problem (empires just grow faster and faster after level 6).
Been talking with one of my FL's and came up with an idea that has been suggested before. Splitting up of empires. More or less it would be the exact opposite of the current DP merge option.
The idea is this:
Large empires are pretty boring to own from what I hear. It takes massive numbers of people to run them in peace time, and god forbid you should need BPers for a war. Sure there are nice perks (tons of money/research/units/so forth) but it is hard to get the empire to do much of anything military. The most active LW empires are in the level 5-9 range iirc.
By the same token, randy has the problem of the huge empires and all their money and ability to grow. For example, a lot of game ballance is dependant on it being more expensive for large empires to hit small empires. While this works great in general, the very largest empires can afford to burn the extra cash to do it regularly. Not to mention that the increased building costs hardly slow down their growth at all.
So Randy should add in an ability to have larger empires 'break up.' Probably give it to all level 13's and 12's. The way I see it running would be this:
The empire is removed from its current faction (new FL appointed if necessary) and is put into its own faction. The empire is broken up into 10-15 smaller empires, ideally in the range of level 7-level 9 and all in this new faction (the New Faction's Name would be the old empire's name, and all new empires created would have names like XXX Op 1, XXX Op 2, and so forth). Things would be distributed by randomally assigning cities to the new empires, and having empty zones go to the empire with the nearest city (flip a coin in the case of draws). Units go to the empire which owns the zone they are in. The empire funds would be divided evanly between all of the new empires, and research would be conserved.
Obviously there would be some sort of N$ cost assigned to this, and probably fairly hefty.
Basically what you have now is a faction that is made up of what used to be 1 empire. All the empires would be level 7-9, and all be in a faction so they can 'work together' as one still, though they are now a bit more fragmented and thus subject to some more restrictions when helping one another.
The perks to this for Randy are he gets rid of a super empire with all the problems it causes. The empires are still decently large, but they are no longer the over powering monstrosities they previously had been. Also, since the empire breaks up into 10-15 empires, he can be assured that not just 1 person will be in complete control of the former super empire's economic power.
The benifit to the players is a bit different. The biggest one is you now have much easier to handle empires, and get to keep your research. It could be an interesting way to grow a faction (having empires get larger and divide), and doesn't require the deletion of prized units to keep things going.
Now, obviously this is nowhere near a finished idea, but I would like to get some input to it. Please make it more than 'this sux' or 'this rocks'. At the very least try to point out why you think it is good or bad, and maybe suggest ways to make it more ballanced or easier to do.
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The RNG mugged me in a dark street, killed my dog, and cancled Christmas.
When the winds of change blow hard enough the most trivial of things can become deadly projectials.
Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be evil.
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Kas
Lieutenant
Reged: 03/16/05
Posts: 487
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Re: Massive Empire Solution
[Re: Kit_fox]
#124684 - 01/30/06 05:47 PM (68.102.220.141)
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Quote:
For example, a lot of game ballance is dependant on it being more expensive for large empires to hit small empires. While this works great in general, the very largest empires can afford to burn the extra cash to do it regularly
Do you have any examples? I don't watch war logs like I used to so haven't seen to much of the bigger empire burning several billion to hit a lower one.
Quote:
Not so much that they exist, so much as they have near limitless resourses when compaired to other empires. Level 10+ empires just make so much money that they can throw it around like it was nothing
Here is my own 2 cents as someone who has experience in running a large empire, solo. As the prior owner of a level 11 with a good balance, well setup it did not make that much money really. No it did not have 7000 mechs. It was slowly grown, not built overnight and carefully planned out so as to have the most cost efficient yet useful army. It had no hover units, and the only wheeled units in the empire was Snipers and TWACs, everything else was tracked to be as efficient as possible. Towers were efficient and cheap on maint. It was also in the top 100 empire by morale most of the time I had it. At 200% maint I was only making like 10 mil a nevday or so. (I forget exactly but it was around that). By Doubling the Income in it's 1kers, filling the last 2 720+ cities out to 1k and rebalancing comms I could have been easily making 3-4 times that. As someone who did not have the cash to dump into DP anymore that was not an option. It took me forever to save up nevcash to do things. If I didn't spend a cent, didn't get attacked, didn't send my own empires funds but I let the empire sit for 3 months, thats 9 billion wooo, 1 large war. The problem arrises when someone DP doubles all thier 1kers. In the same time span that'd be 36 billion in profit.
Want to curb large empire growth? Remove Income doublers.
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Xia
Lieutenant
Reged: 08/06/03
Posts: 694
Loc: Forgotton Palace, Xu Chang, Im...
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Re: Massive Empire Solution
[Re: Kit_fox]
#124692 - 01/30/06 10:58 PM (67.9.125.113)
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Quick question not shooting it down but once you get past lvl 8 war becomes much rarer and unless your faction is garbage you are relatively safe or as safe as your going to be. So now instead of having one gigantic cash cow now you have half a dozen cash calves small but relatively large empires that will do nothing else BUT grow?
I really don’t see a problem as far as too much cash in the game goes. Who's it hurting? My take is… so what? If I have 40B and my rival has 30B what does it matter? Randy needs to give large empires something to do instead of punishing people because they have large empires. Money is pretty much the only perk left for large empire IMHO. Why take it away? 
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I find that violence is a perfectly viable solution to most problems....
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mattbuck
Eeyore
Reged: 02/13/04
Posts: 3285
Loc: Nottingham, UK
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Re: Massive Empire Solution
[Re: Xia]
#124698 - 01/31/06 03:15 AM (128.243.220.21)
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Make their skill multis turn to 0 unless they've killed 100k of lvl11+ BV in the past 3 days...
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Haha, you people think admins still look at these forums.
Visit the Platonian! Updated! Stuff! Things! Click!
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sdog
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 1791
Loc: europe
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Re: Massive Empire Solution
[Re: mattbuck]
#124701 - 01/31/06 06:58 AM (139.174.165.124)
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will the 5 empire limit be disabled for people who split their empire?
unless it would be a bit of a problem to find 20 people to take over the lvl7s remaining from your empire.
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Kit_fox
Colonel
Reged: 09/16/02
Posts: 3054
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Re: Massive Empire Solution
[Re: Kas]
#124707 - 01/31/06 09:17 AM (129.138.30.190)
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Quote:
Do you have any examples? I don't watch war logs like I used to so haven't seen to much of the bigger empire burning several billion to hit a lower one.
It is mostly done during large wars between factions, and is something that everyone uses but still complains about. For example, almost a year ago during the war between UDC/Cult and CFC, CFC commonly used the tactic of having their large level 10+ empires dropping a batt of inf on any attack in their faction they saw.
More recently, something simular was done in the UDC/HoC war gainst Kizo, though I wasn't involved so much with that and I *think* (like I said, I wasn't involved) it was done less with inf.
Quote:
Want to curb large empire growth? Remove Income doublers.
That is something I hadn't considered, I hadn't thought there were any high level empires without income doublers out there (mostly because in your example, making 10M a nev day, that is 100M a RL day, and only 25 days worth of saving, less if you have a doubler at the time you start to save).
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_____
The RNG mugged me in a dark street, killed my dog, and cancled Christmas.
When the winds of change blow hard enough the most trivial of things can become deadly projectials.
Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be evil.
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Kit_fox
Colonel
Reged: 09/16/02
Posts: 3054
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Re: Massive Empire Solution
[Re: sdog]
#124708 - 01/31/06 09:20 AM (129.138.30.190)
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I don't see the 5 empire limit being removed, which is partly why I say this is definately not a completely fleshed out plan. I am trying to think of a way to do this in a reasonable way.
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_____
The RNG mugged me in a dark street, killed my dog, and cancled Christmas.
When the winds of change blow hard enough the most trivial of things can become deadly projectials.
Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be evil.
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Dzurath
Sergeant
Reged: 04/12/04
Posts: 150
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Re: Massive Empire Solution
[Re: Kit_fox]
#124710 - 01/31/06 10:04 AM (68.19.87.185)
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The problem with removing income doublers is that they've already removed skill doublers. That would be two of the three most common uses of DP removed from the game. [The third being increased zone size]. Yes some people buy DP mechs, but in today's IDF driven warfare, that's really a rare occurance. The big issue is they're trying to fix a broken economic system with a forced military one. They're just using a very ineffective tool for what is the real root of the issue.
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Kas
Lieutenant
Reged: 03/16/05
Posts: 487
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Re: Massive Empire Solution
[Re: Dzurath]
#124716 - 01/31/06 01:25 PM (129.130.43.48)
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Quote:
That is something I hadn't considered, I hadn't thought there were any high level empires without income doublers out there (mostly because in your example, making 10M a nev day, that is 100M a RL day, and only 25 days worth of saving, less if you have a doubler at the time you start to save).
I think we're missing my point here, maybe I was beating around the bush too much. Those of us who cannot afford to dump massive chunks of cash into the game are crippled by nerfs meant to slow the people who can. New military maint costs anyone? I have nothing against people who DP and haven't ever complained about DPers making much more money then I do, having bigger mechs, researching faster or producing more. The problem arises when thats considered the standard and eventually becomes required practice.
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Cecil
Lieutenant
Reged: 07/09/02
Posts: 467
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Re: Massive Empire Solution
[Re: Kit_fox]
#124726 - 01/31/06 03:22 PM (65.219.8.30)
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Okay, bring on the abuseniks...
Quote:
...and research would be conserved.
Let me pool money to buy a big research empire and buy it from another fed-up-leaving-the-game player then break it down to build up now multiple empires all with the same research (and likely the ability to produce mechs, or other great sorts of vehicles), continue research, and then rinse and repeat. This would be far worse than having a large empire queue up a TC for some high RP technology and have another empire take it to gain that technology without going through the pre-requisites.
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mattbuck
Eeyore
Reged: 02/13/04
Posts: 3285
Loc: Nottingham, UK
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Re: Massive Empire Solution
[Re: Cecil]
#124746 - 01/31/06 06:47 PM (128.243.220.42)
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http://mattbuck.sixwinter.com/?neveron-log-emplimit
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Haha, you people think admins still look at these forums.
Visit the Platonian! Updated! Stuff! Things! Click!
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Xia
Lieutenant
Reged: 08/06/03
Posts: 694
Loc: Forgotton Palace, Xu Chang, Im...
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Re: Massive Empire Solution
[Re: mattbuck]
#124752 - 01/31/06 07:35 PM (67.9.125.113)
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Agree with SDan lvl7 is too restrictive needs to be at least lvl8...
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I find that violence is a perfectly viable solution to most problems....
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FeaR
Corporal
Reged: 03/23/04
Posts: 59
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Re: Massive Empire Solution
[Re: Kas]
#124763 - 01/31/06 11:36 PM (24.131.139.30)
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actually Kas your old empire i bought from you is making far more then 4xs as much with income doublers. I havent added any population to it but i filled the jobs and income doubled all the 1kers. Its now making Daily Net Cash Flow Subtotal: $ 80,304,476. When i got it i think it was at like 5-8 mil a nev day.
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Kas
Lieutenant
Reged: 03/16/05
Posts: 487
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Re: Massive Empire Solution
[Re: FeaR]
#124765 - 01/31/06 11:52 PM (68.102.220.141)
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LOL
Guess my memory was wrong as to its income, maybe it was making the 10 mil a ND before the new maint rates (Although I thought it was up to about 19 mil before the new rates went in). Anyway, this proves my point even more so. :P
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tywren
Corporal
Reged: 03/30/05
Posts: 53
Loc: oklahoma
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Re: Massive Empire Solution
[Re: Kas]
#124851 - 02/01/06 07:31 PM (63.157.95.28)
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here is the probblem i have with randy's latest chang, i and my room mate both play from the same computer (and i've talked to a husband/wive in the same kind of boat in chat) so what happens when one of us hit's lvl 7? "oops sorry, you can't lvl up anymore, get used to being a lvl 6 uk yuk". did no one at you staff meeting stop to think that some computers have more than one user that play the game and that once one of those players hit's lvl 7 ALL THE OTHERS WILL BE SCREWED?!?! and what about people who only play the game form public turmanl's like campous library's? they won't be able to install your lvl 7+ verafacation patch at all.
Edited by tywren (02/01/06 07:38 PM)
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Kas
Lieutenant
Reged: 03/16/05
Posts: 487
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Re: Massive Empire Solution
[Re: tywren]
#124863 - 02/01/06 11:48 PM (68.102.220.141)
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Yeah this is going to actually make it impossible for some players to OMFG ACTIVELY PLAY.
Quote:
Activity: We are very much ensuring that the empires/players at the top are ones who are both successful and active. Large empires should be run by active players and the biggest of them should be run by the most successful active players.
According to what I've seen.. From unregistered PCs you'll be able to check on your empires but not DO anything. So where I used to do empire and admin chores while on lunchbreak from work or in between classes on campus, now it'll be logging in to stare at the screen.
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Kit_fox
Colonel
Reged: 09/16/02
Posts: 3054
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Re: Massive Empire Solution
[Re: Kas]
#124867 - 02/02/06 12:12 AM (129.138.30.190)
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It isn't that you won't be able to do anything, it is that what you can do will be much more limited. Basically enough to do minor house cleaning things, from what I understand (check empire, shuffle units around, maybe sell production [but most likely not start any new production]).
However, since there hasn't been anything explicitly outlined, that is just guessing.
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The RNG mugged me in a dark street, killed my dog, and cancled Christmas.
When the winds of change blow hard enough the most trivial of things can become deadly projectials.
Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be evil.
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Pimpslap
Sergeant Major
Reged: 03/13/03
Posts: 365
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Re: Massive Empire Solution
[Re: Kit_fox]
#124868 - 02/02/06 12:17 AM (68.229.251.70)
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The thing your not getting is the admin dont want players to have 5 empires they can toss at someone. Your idea would just make this worse, person wants to hit another level 9 they have like 15 empires they can hit it with. First level 9 fails? blah no biggie send 2 more. This also doesnt reduce the units in game or any of the other billion things that are currently wrong with the balance in game.
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Harbingers of Chaos
COME WAR WITH US!!
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SubZero
Lieutenant
Reged: 08/13/05
Posts: 567
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Re: Massive Empire Solution
[Re: Pimpslap]
#124890 - 02/02/06 07:54 AM (130.82.111.149)
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there must be a smarter system for reducing the empire numbers per person
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Isotope
Private
Reged: 10/12/05
Posts: 38
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Re: Massive Empire Solution
[Re: Pimpslap]
#125716 - 02/19/06 05:45 PM (67.167.222.31)
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I quit nev about three months ago, cause of all the dumb changes and reading too many conversations that have text like the abomination printed by "pimpslap". Pimp, you are not only one of the least articulate of people on the face of the earth, but also among the least intelligent. When you try to type the word YOUR make sure you get the right type of that word.
Poster: Pimpslap
Subject: Re: Massive Empire Solution
The thing your not getting is the admin dont want players to have 5 empires they can toss at someo.
^^^
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"You're Versus Your," by Mary Margaret Carlisle, Managing Editor
You're is the contraction for you are.
Example: "You're writing a poetic novel in rhyme?"
Your is possessive, where something belongs to you.
Example: "Your writing is delightful."
http://pages.prodigy.net/sol.magazine/grammar.htm
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Or maybe you believe that the person you talk to is someone you own? In any event, that website has plenty of other obvious grammar mistakes, many of which have been in your previous nev-mail posts over the past two years. As the part of the HoC "leadership" it sure makes you all look like a bunch of buffoons when it becomes hard to distinguish a HoC pubmail from a WoB pubmail.
LOL
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CaBhaal
Lieutenant
Reged: 10/11/04
Posts: 599
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Re: Massive Empire Solution
[Re: Isotope]
#125719 - 02/19/06 07:04 PM (24.32.87.123)
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I often see this kind of attack. You lash out in anger against his grammer and spelling because you cannot hope to fight him any other way.
Expression is secondary to understanding. If you understood the intent of the message, then the delivery does not matter. Attack the message on the basis of content, not delivery.
In other words (in case my delivery was too eloquent for you): get a life.
CaB
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GreenBeret
Sergeant Major
Reged: 06/03/03
Posts: 345
Loc: Nuevo Mexico
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Re: Massive Empire Solution
[Re: CaBhaal]
#125720 - 02/19/06 07:29 PM (129.138.37.67)
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"grammar" not "grammer" damn HoC newbies.
And yes, attacking 35k units and having to destroy 17k of them to surrender the empire is insane.
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Formerly:
Đark Đemons, Phantasmal, Commonality Ordnance and Weaponry
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SDan
Sergeant
Reged: 07/27/05
Posts: 127
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Re: Massive Empire Solution
[Re: GreenBeret]
#125744 - 02/20/06 08:49 AM (69.153.2.47)
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Quote:
And yes, attacking 35k units and having to destroy 17k of them to surrender the empire is insane.
Look on the bright side: it will put you on the top of the Top 100 kills list.
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Are you a newbie that needs help and wants some extra cash? Sign on using the promo code "me want candy" I will help you learn the game, and you'll start with lots of extra nevcash.
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GreenBeret
Sergeant Major
Reged: 06/03/03
Posts: 345
Loc: Nuevo Mexico
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Re: Massive Empire Solution
[Re: SDan]
#125747 - 02/20/06 02:13 PM (129.138.37.67)
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I'm already there... twice. To kill 17k units at the rate my empires have killed would take 8 people 3 years of playing.
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