CaBhaal
Lieutenant
Reged: 10/11/04
Posts: 599
|
Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
#124852 - 02/01/06 08:44 PM (24.32.87.123)
|
|
|
I was reading a SciFi book that had tanks in it and got an idea. The tanks in the book were able to use onboard MG's to shoot down incoming projectiles to include Artillery (IDF) and missiles (SRM/LRM).
I was thinking this could be applied to Neveron. Currently IDF rules the battlefield. There is no defense other than speed, and in the (im)proper terrain, speed is not always an option. It would be nice to have an active defense against incoming artillery.
Artillery comes in on a ballistic path. That means it arcs in towards the target along an easily predicted path and vector. It is childs play to fire rounds into this path to destroy the incoming projectile. The US Navy has the technology to do it today:
CIWS
It is no stretch at all for a unit possessing MG (which in BT is really a battery of multiple weapons) to shoot down incoming artillery/missiles as long as your sensors can detect the firing unit. Artillery (ballistic) would be easier to shoot down than a missile (direct fire) so the rules would reflect this:
This would be an automatic system. Pilot gunnery plays no part in the RNG rolls. IDF fired directly at a unit possessing MG(s) has a chance to be engaged and destroyed by the MG system. MG must be in the arc incoming fire comes from. The RNG roll for this should be 6+ or 7+. Incoming missiles should need an 7+ or 8+. Each MG gets to engage a single incoming IDF/LRM salvo. This means that you can saturate the MG point defense system.
MG's can also target IDF/missile not targeted directly at them. They can only provide point defense for units in range of the MG. The roll is also more difficult, +2 if at med range and +4 if at long range. (So MG mk II's would be better for this due to their longer range)
MG's are one of the least used weapons in neveron. Mechs with MG ammo have that ammo dropped first thing in battle to reduce likelyhood of ammo explosion. Vehicles with MG's rarely get to use them. Using this system should weaken the power IDF has on the game while making mechs/vehs with MG's more useful.
(edit: and yes I know BT has a AMS system already. Problem is Neveron does not have AMS but does have heaps of unused MG's)
Edited by CaBhaal (02/01/06 08:56 PM)
|
Kas
Lieutenant
Reged: 03/16/05
Posts: 487
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: CaBhaal]
#124854 - 02/01/06 08:55 PM (68.102.220.141)
|
|
|
I like it but I'd propose that mechs are the only units with sophisticated enough targeting systems to do this.
Give each MG a chance to shoot down 1 artillery round per turn, the exact chances left to the admins. If later deemed to be too low of a chance it'd be a simple matter of changing a number to increase the odds to hit. My MGs rarely get fired on my mechs, I normally don't even reload them but leave them empty so as to reduce ammo pops.
Probably a flat chance to hit an idf round as its computer controlled.
I think this would be perfect for reducing the superiority of IDF.
That failing... You remember those new vehicles we were promised last fall? How about a dedicated anti-IDF vehicle. Fairly heavy and fairly expensive it could put up a hail of rounds to destroy incoming fire in the same manner.
|
CaBhaal
Lieutenant
Reged: 10/11/04
Posts: 599
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: Kas]
#124855 - 02/01/06 09:12 PM (24.32.87.123)
|
|
|
I think I agree with that. Otherwise people will just slap MG's on their towers, preventing SNP from engaging them.
|
Kas
Lieutenant
Reged: 03/16/05
Posts: 487
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: CaBhaal]
#124856 - 02/01/06 10:06 PM (68.102.220.141)
|
|
|
Yeah and they'd just put a batt of cheap aivs in zones for anti-idf defense, adding to the number of units in game. Mechs on the other hand... 
|
davion76
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 08/07/02
Posts: 1605
Loc: Ridgecrest CA, USA
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: Kas]
#124857 - 02/01/06 10:15 PM (12.219.244.44)
|
|
|
I REALLY like this idea.
|
JuanValdez
Newbie
Reged: 02/01/06
Posts: 24
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: CaBhaal]
#124858 - 02/01/06 10:51 PM (12.219.244.56)
|
|
|
An excellent Idea.
As for towers with MG's being too useful, they could still be overwhelmed and if the MG was used to engage income fire, it wouldn't be available to engage other troups. IDF could be used to distract the tower crews while other forces move in for the kill.
|
Kas
Lieutenant
Reged: 03/16/05
Posts: 487
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: JuanValdez]
#124861 - 02/01/06 11:28 PM (68.102.220.141)
|
|
|
I still say only mechs, people would go overboard and build towers with 8 MGs or fill any remaining space in zones with cheap 25 cf mg towers.
One thing that has to be looked at closely is balance.
We want IDF to still be useful while balancing it enough so they are not uber like now. If you added too much anti-idf (forever to now be known as AIDF) to the game the inbalance would still be there just shifted to the other spectrum. The people who invested in IDF and the tactics that revolve around using and defeating it would be screwed.
|
cbtgod
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 1812
Loc: IN A BOX UNDER A HOUSE
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: Kas]
#124869 - 02/02/06 12:25 AM (71.100.240.191)
|
|
|
your idea is good but why not use lrms? the air force right now has a system made to shot down nukes the missle homes in and blows up a few yards away taking out the engine part of the missle leaving the nuke part ok just a thought. i dont think it should be tower based vech or mech only just an opinion.
--------------------
yes its a toad, if you didnt know that you dont know anything about cbt
|
davion76
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 08/07/02
Posts: 1605
Loc: Ridgecrest CA, USA
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: cbtgod]
#124870 - 02/02/06 12:31 AM (12.219.244.44)
|
|
|
primarily b/c MGs suck right now. They have virtually no use. LRMs on the other hand a re quite useful as they are. Giving LRMs this benefit doesn't improve the game considerably, and could cause problems with game balance. Not to mention, would you want to waste your LRM ammo on an IDF 5 round?
|
Kas
Lieutenant
Reged: 03/16/05
Posts: 487
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: davion76]
#124873 - 02/02/06 12:40 AM (68.102.220.141)
|
|
|
One drawback of using MGs as opposed to LRMs may actually work to help play balance.
MGs have a range of 3. They'd only work to shoot down IDF rounds attacking any units within 3 hexes, maybe including a range panalty. Harder to shoot down IDF targeting nearby units as opposed to a round heading right at you. That way a couple units cannot cover the entire map.
|
Malachi
Sergeant Major
Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 369
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: Kas]
#124876 - 02/02/06 02:20 AM (62.254.128.6)
|
|
|
This is finally a good idea to counter IDF hordes, jumping mechs armed with MGs wud be relatively invulnerable to IDF fire, the way it should be. I also suggest that a roll for shooting down the incoming fire is only made when the unit would be hit by the IDF fire. Definitely keep to mechs only, vehicles like AIVs are just that, AIVs, they are designed to use MGs not as point defence tanks. Possibly a special point defence tank could be designed with individual rules but make sure its 1 of a kind
|
MatthewAce
Captain
Reged: 06/25/04
Posts: 774
Loc: Neveron
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: Malachi]
#124877 - 02/02/06 02:55 AM (202.156.6.52)
|
|
|
Yeah, I find it an interesting idea.
But it would be nicer if you need an upgrade to the MG in order to enable that. For a small fee of say tonnage*0.1m per MG.
A non-randomised upgrade that is.
We can call this the Machine gun-MkIII.
Let it use the standard MG rounds.
--------------------
Urbies are good.
|
sdog
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 1791
Loc: europe
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: MatthewAce]
#124881 - 02/02/06 06:52 AM (139.174.165.124)
|
|
|
how do you want to shoot down an incoming idf shell? even if you hit, the impulse of the MG bullet is small compared to that of the very heavy shell. the trajectory would be changed only a slightly. still hiting near the original target. for normal artillery this wouldn't change anything. neveron artilllery seems to hit directly, so the shells must be guided in the last part of the approach. (i think nimon told something about a copperhead project of us armed forces)
the chance to hit such a small thing as a shell isn't rather high either, especially with the low rof of a neveron 12.7 mm machinegun.
it's not as large as a missile.
otoh if you can shoot down artillery shells, you need to shoot down lrms and srms too. but SRM are already almost useless in nev, and lrm mechs aren't the kings of the battlefield either, as to hit numbers are to high, and ammunition is not enough.
|
SubZero
Lieutenant
Reged: 08/13/05
Posts: 567
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: sdog]
#124889 - 02/02/06 07:53 AM (130.82.111.149)
|
|
|
another stupid fix for the IDF problem
suck it up, removing them is the best fix
|
MatthewAce
Captain
Reged: 06/25/04
Posts: 774
Loc: Neveron
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: SubZero]
#124897 - 02/02/06 08:52 AM (202.156.6.52)
|
|
|
Removing them totally is even stupider, SZ.
The problem with IDF is just that everyone is overly dependent on them. And that magnified the effect to such a degree that you would think, "IDF is way too uber! Get rid of IDF!"
It's not as if 1 IDF Cannon is oh-so-uber-powerful that a mech will die instantly upon getting hit by 1.
I've again and again suggested a significant nerfing of IDF, and towers, but I wonder if admins ever paid attention. =|
Again I paraphrase: IDF is an ideal support weapon, it is a good tool to implement, but people are using them like their main forces.
You need to learn how to look at things from another direction. Taking the easy way out seems to be what you want everytime. :P
Not that I'm putting you down.
Of course, some of your suggestions are actually very good. The terrain suggestion for example.
--------------------
Urbies are good.
|
Zoltan
Corporal
Reged: 01/06/05
Posts: 74
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: MatthewAce]
#124898 - 02/02/06 09:00 AM (130.127.99.148)
|
|
|
Uhhhh, have any of you ever heard of AMS??
In L2 Battletech, there are point defense machine gun systems available to both clan and IS called anti missle systems. In L3 clanners also had LAMS, a laser based system that shot down missles.
The idea of shooting down artillery shells is retarded. The reason you can shoot down missles is because they travel slower than artillery shells and are much more fragile.
|
MatthewAce
Captain
Reged: 06/25/04
Posts: 774
Loc: Neveron
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: Zoltan]
#124900 - 02/02/06 09:10 AM (202.156.6.52)
|
|
|
Zoltan, do you even bother reading the starting post? lol.
--------------------
Urbies are good.
|
Octurion
Private
Reged: 01/30/04
Posts: 37
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: Zoltan]
#124901 - 02/02/06 09:19 AM (192.149.109.218)
|
|
|
when you are fireing a MG at a shell or missile is it not the impact of the bullet that destories the round or the impact that pushes it off course. The point is to hit the warhead and set the shell/missile off in mid-air before it reaches its target. Also why MGs are used for AMS is bcause you can fire so many so fast you dont need to aim or have a fancy targeting computer to hit the shell/missile. You put up a wall of metal in its path which gives you a good chance of hitting the warhead.
|
MatthewAce
Captain
Reged: 06/25/04
Posts: 774
Loc: Neveron
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: sdog]
#124902 - 02/02/06 09:24 AM (202.156.6.52)
|
|
|
Quote:
otoh if you can shoot down artillery shells, you need to shoot down lrms and srms too. but SRM are already almost useless in nev, and lrm mechs aren't the kings of the battlefield either, as to hit numbers are to high, and ammunition is not enough.
I did suggest change to how missiles are rolled for numbers of missile hitting.
But admins just keep saying theirs are better.
Neveron Missile Dice:
LRM: *D5
Where * is LRM Rack size divided by 5.
SRM: 1D*
Where * is SRM Rack size.
This sort of underpowers SRM6 I feel. More chance of 6 Missiles hitting, but less stable.
LRM is more problematic.
--------------------
Urbies are good.
|
davion76
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 08/07/02
Posts: 1605
Loc: Ridgecrest CA, USA
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: sdog]
#124904 - 02/02/06 09:32 AM (12.219.244.44)
|
|
|
Most artillery shells are not a Kinetic kill type of ammunition. This means they have a fuze and explosives. hitting a HE shell with another bullet will either detonate the round, or likely create a hole large enough to make the round go low order rather than high order.
|
SubZero
Lieutenant
Reged: 08/13/05
Posts: 567
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: davion76]
#124906 - 02/02/06 10:15 AM (130.82.107.135)
|
|
|
artillery shells are most of the time too small to be hit
|
mattbuck
Eeyore
Reged: 02/13/04
Posts: 3285
Loc: Nottingham, UK
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: davion76]
#124908 - 02/02/06 10:21 AM (128.243.220.22)
|
|
|
This does actually sound good, except I think it should be anti-idf only, not anti-missile as well.
As for whoever was talking about realism, nev isn'#t realistic, it's about what works better in the game context.
--------------------
Haha, you people think admins still look at these forums.
Visit the Platonian! Updated! Stuff! Things! Click!
|
Kit_fox
Colonel
Reged: 09/16/02
Posts: 3054
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: Octurion]
#124914 - 02/02/06 12:13 PM (129.138.30.190)
|
|
|
Actually this doesn't work nearly as well as you would think IRL. You need an advanced computer to track, target, and fire at the incoming projectile and also have a very high rate of fire to even have a decent shot at it.
Take the example of 'R2-D2' (yes, that is the nick name. Full name is Phalanx CIWS) thing we have defending capitol ships in the US navy. R2-D2 is merely part of an integrated system. It has 2 (yes 2) radar systems. The first is a search radar that... well... duh. When the search radar finds a potential target, it passes to a logic controler to determine if the potential target is in fact something that should be shot down.
At this point the mount moves to face the incoming threat and hands things over to the tracking radar. The track radar keeps track of the target until it is at a range that it can be killed. It will then either fire on its own (when the time is right) or recomend firing to the opperator (depending on how the system is set).
When it fires it throws out a truely insane ammount of ammo (75 rounds per second) and still only has a chance to get the incoming projectile. If it misses it has a to recgonize the target is still incoming, recalculate, and fire again. Typically it has a chance for 3-4 bursts from the time a missile gets into range till the time it would hit the ship (again iirc). Even with those chances it is entirely possible the missile will get through, though I am not sure on exact numbers I would give it 40% chance to get through R2-D2.
Not tearing appart the idea or anything, just taking issue with the statement of 'you don't need to aim or have fancy targeting computer' and 'gives you a good chance of hitting the warhead'. Both of which are completely wrong statements.
This is an addition I would like to see, though maybe as an upgrade to mechs.
--------------------
_____
The RNG mugged me in a dark street, killed my dog, and cancled Christmas.
When the winds of change blow hard enough the most trivial of things can become deadly projectials.
Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be evil.
|
Octurion
Private
Reged: 01/30/04
Posts: 37
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: Kit_fox]
#124918 - 02/02/06 02:17 PM (192.149.109.218)
|
|
|
ok let me clear up what I ment. when you compare todays tech to BT level tech ours is alot more simple and not as "fancy". I would think it would not take as much effort for a mechs computer to be able to do what Kit explain compare to todays standard. Also 40% is pretty good, even if it only hit 25% or even 10% it is still more effect then having no missile defense which is why they use them on ships today.
|
Kas
Lieutenant
Reged: 03/16/05
Posts: 487
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: Octurion]
#124921 - 02/02/06 03:22 PM (68.102.220.141)
|
|
|
Quit making everything a physics problem compared to modern day technology or expecting it to be 100% like battletech. This (Neveron) isn't 2006 and it isn't battletech.
It is not wildly unbelievable to assume this is possible. (After all we're piloting biped machines running at 120 kph+ powered with fusion reactors that interface with a neurohelmet for controls shooting particle projection and lasers at each other from water zones next to islands that we instantly filled in with giant flying dumptrucks while the 100 ton mechs launch themselves through the air with jumpjets.) A rhinos jump jets doing the equivilent of picking up 1.5 Abrams tanks and launching it 90 meters while landing safely, shooting while in flight of course. It would be in the "best interest" of the game and help restore some play balance. Can you just accept that for what it is?
You guys astound me, IDF is over powered, mechs are under used. A small change that would help correct some of that inbalance and some of you simply discount that we couldn't do it now so couldn't do it then?
Why not AMS? Well anyone can make a half hearted attempt to explain why "on nev" AMS isn't possible.
Maybe the missiles have a funny motion to them since they are powered flight that doesn't allow a program to calculate where they will be in X seconds and with what vector? Like a funky corkscrew pattern a random flight pattern meant to evade fire.
Maybe they have small jammers or other ECM type features built into the missiles that would render them too hard to hit? Maybe they fly NOE so you don't get a clean shot on them? Whatever.
Why can we hit IDF rounds then?
Maybe they have a very slow flight speed, that would make sense as Artillery on nev has a very short range. Like lobbing a baseball underhanded. Ever see HEP round being fired in real life? If you stand behind the weapon you can actually see the round leave the barrel. This trajectory (of an unguided, unpowered, uncontrolled object) is also very easy to calculate and anticipate.
Maybe the anti-idf MGs fire a hail of bullets in a cone at the calculated intersection point. Any bullets hit it would either detonate the round or deflect it enough to miss its target and as nev doesn't calculate where misses go it just goes away.
Maybe the anti-idf MGs could be converted to small lasers to make it more acceptable physics wise? Personally I don't care about the semantics, they can be explained away.
|
Pimpslap
Sergeant Major
Reged: 03/13/03
Posts: 365
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: Kas]
#124923 - 02/02/06 03:43 PM (68.229.251.70)
|
|
|
the problem i see is that this just continues the trend of putting in more stuff to fix more stuff thats already known to be borked. The end results will end up being even more borked then current. For something like this to work you would need maybe a dozen or so mechs per each city, and i would say that the heavier mechs would have better tracking computers so they woudl do better with this, so you now have 12 assault mechs per 1k in your empire, thats 120 mechs you add at level 11 for nothing more then standing around. If you dont have 1k zones this number would even be higher to have decent AIDF. So now you either have massive OMT on top of the sniper issue, that this might or might not fix, or a complete rework of tht OMT system. Sounds like alot of work to fix a broken game mechanic.
--------------------
Harbingers of Chaos
COME WAR WITH US!!
|
mattbuck
Eeyore
Reged: 02/13/04
Posts: 3285
Loc: Nottingham, UK
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: Pimpslap]
#124927 - 02/02/06 05:43 PM (128.243.220.22)
|
|
|
So... antiidf system
Or
Make tower range multis 1.25 and 1.5* for the current costs of 2* ands 3*, remove snipers.
--------------------
Haha, you people think admins still look at these forums.
Visit the Platonian! Updated! Stuff! Things! Click!
|
Kas
Lieutenant
Reged: 03/16/05
Posts: 487
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: Pimpslap]
#124932 - 02/02/06 08:02 PM (68.102.220.141)
|
|
|
Well it'd be interesting to be able to do this. I wouldn't want to see the ability to totally nullify IDF only reduce its effectiveness. I know people wouldn't be stacking 36 assault mechs in cities to stop a sniper batt. IMHO this would be fun to have around and a help for people participating in an active defense. You simply move some mechs to the city under seige or if you counter attack with mechs the attackers snipers won't be such a pain.
Also you can tailor the effectiveness based on the needs of the game, for instance;
Making to overall hit numbers for the MG higher or lower.
Making larger mechs have a better to hit chance.
Giving moving mechs a more severe chance to miss.
Allowing mechs to either only shoot IDF shot at that mech or allowing them to shoot down any IDF that targets a friendly unit in range.
You're right though this is a fix for a broken system. And based on current track records they don't really ever correct much but fix here and there.
|
sdog
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 1791
Loc: europe
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: Kas]
#124946 - 02/03/06 07:40 AM (139.174.165.124)
|
|
|
battletech computer technology is far behind our modern standards. don't forget it was designed in the early 80s, and with a los-tech idea.
guided missiles are so rare that they are practical unknown in BT.
for the probabilty of hit the solid angle (Ω = A/Rē) of the object should be important.
3 hexes are 90 m. 0.20 m for the shell.
0.2**2*pi/100**2 = 0.12/10e4 = 1.2e-5 sr
for a 5 MOA spread for the gun:
5 MOA at 100m is 5/60 * pi/180 *100 = 0.15 m
solid angle:
0.15**2*pi/100**2 = 7e-6
so if the targeting is correct the gun would hit.
detection with the radar should be in principle acurate enough (X band wavelength is about 3 cm)
i can't estimat the acuracy of the extrapolation of the trajectory. it depends to much on details of the flight physics and acuracy of measuring the projectiles position before. but it seems like this is the crucial problem.
|
mumbles
Sergeant
Reged: 03/06/05
Posts: 147
|
Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: sdog]
#124948 - 02/03/06 09:39 AM (24.37.41.207)
|
|
|
I would like to add most Anti-missile guns are gattling guns and have a 10 000 RPM so i dont MG can handle that mount of fire power.
|
Previous
Index
Next
Threaded
Edit
Reply
Quote
