wixer
Sergeant Major
Reged: 09/13/05
Posts: 202
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Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: SDan]
#125109 - 02/06/06 05:21 PM (128.210.50.123)
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The US ships use fast firing canons to shoot down missiles. So do German ships and probably everybody else. An MG would do nothing. Specially a smart missile which would just adjust and continue. The canon actually destroys the missile. Setting of the warhead shouldnt happen normaly. An MG wouldnt be able to destroy the missile. If you are extrem lucky 3-4 bullets hit the missile. Obviously a small caliber wouldnt do a thing. Would have to be more like a 20mm beauty. Just check the "vulcan" http://www.bragg.army.mil/18abn/images/vulcan.jpg
Ok Ok lets assume we have a fancy MG which can be directly controled by a fancy fast targeting computer and has uranium bullets which allow it to rip an IDF apart. yeah then its possible Sorry I just wasnt able to imagine this in the morning. Dont know what happend to me. But now Im healed and back in the future. 
Just one question. There is a reasonable chance of an MG hitting a small and fast moving steel plated IDF projectile. Why isnt an AC10 able to hit right into a barrel of a Gauscanon or similar stunts? If a shitty MG gets such fancy targeting abilities every superior weapon should be able to hit extrem slow moving mechs wherever one would like.
MG is worthless? So its justified to give it a new use?
AR is even more useless. Why not start there
MGs are dang cheap giving them anti IDF properties isnt realistic. If one really has to do it I like the upgrade idea.
FYI:
Thats what is commonly thought about the future of projectiles as anti Aircraft weapons
"http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/reference/anti-aircraft_warfare
Future developments
If current trends continue, missiles will replace gun systems completely in "first line" service. Guns are being increasingly pushed into specialist roles, such as the US Phalanx CIWS (Phalanx CIWS: the phalanx ciws (close-in weapon system, pronounced see-whizz) is an anti-missile...
[follow hyperlink for more...]) which uses a 20 mm M61 Vulcan (M61 Vulcan: the 20mm m61 vulcan is a hydraulically driven, six-barreled, air-cooled, electrically...
[follow hyperlink for more...]) gun firing at over 4,500 rounds per minute for last ditch anti-missile and anti-aircraft fighting. Even this formerly first-rate weapon is currently being replaced by a new missile system, the Rolling Airframe Missile (Rolling Airframe Missile: more facts about this subject) , which is smaller, faster, and allows for mid-flight course correction (guidance) to ensure a hit.
Upsetting this development to all-missile systems is the current move to stealth (stealth: Avoiding detection by moving carefully) -based aircraft. Long range missiles depend on long-range detection in order to provide significant lead. Stealth designs cut detection ranges so much that the aircraft is often never even seen, and when it is, often too late for an intecept. Systems for detection and tracking of stealthy aircraft are a major problem for anti-aircraft development.
Another potential weapon system for anti-aircraft use is the laser (laser: An acronym for light amplification by stimulated emission of radiation; an optical device that produces an intense monochromatic beam of coherent light) . Although originally intended to be used in this role since the late 1960s, the most modern laser systems are currently reaching what could be considered "experimental usefulness". In particular the HEL (HEL: (religion) the world of the dead) can be used in the anti-aircraft and anti-missile role. If current developments continue, it is reasonable to suggest that lasers will play a major role in air defense starting in the next 10 years.
Edited by wixer (02/06/06 05:23 PM)
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ReLoad
Sergeant Major
Reged: 11/04/03
Posts: 359
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
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Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: wixer]
#125112 - 02/06/06 06:58 PM (203.34.63.1)
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Twacs, Twacs and more Twacs, want the perfect anti IDF veh? here it is already made for you 
ReLoad
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tranzoandris
Lieutenant
Reged: 08/27/05
Posts: 406
Loc: Wherever. Whoever. Whatever.
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Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: wixer]
#125167 - 02/07/06 05:03 PM (68.155.121.20)
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Quote:
An MG wouldnt be able to destroy the missile. If you are extrem lucky 3-4 bullets hit the missile. Obviously a small caliber wouldnt do a thing.
Good point. Howsabout we make an autocannon have the abillity? They are large and fast shot bullets. They could probably pierce the missile. And it would also make a few underappreciated vehicles get a little more attention, such as the TWAC and PRT
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"The lightning is a lone warrior. It strikes down all without care of what it hits. Just think what a controled army of lightning could do!"
-Undiscovered Journal of Konda in Kamigawa
Try the promo code "Swift is the wind"!
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The_Doctor
Newbie
Reged: 02/06/06
Posts: 10
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Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: tranzoandris]
#125168 - 02/07/06 05:13 PM (68.181.220.84)
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'jesus crap' look, most mechs can bearly hit a MECH consitantly....if I had a system to automatically shoot down 3" targets moving at hundreds of miles an hour, I'd recalibrate the damned thing to shoot at 30 METER targets moving 10s of miles an hour.....
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MatthewAce
Captain
Reged: 06/25/04
Posts: 774
Loc: Neveron
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Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: tranzoandris]
#125173 - 02/07/06 06:06 PM (202.156.6.52)
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I'll kill you if that really happens. :P
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Urbies are good.
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SDan
Sergeant
Reged: 07/27/05
Posts: 127
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Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: MatthewAce]
#125176 - 02/07/06 06:30 PM (69.153.2.47)
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A projectile's or rocket's trajectory is predictable, but a mech is human-piloted, making it inherently unpredictable. That is why a computer system would be used to shoot down incoming IDF rounds but not an enemy mech. Shooting down the IDF round would almost be like shooting a motionless target for a computer because it can calculate when the projectile will be at a specific location. The actions of a human-controlled mech can be more easily predicted by another human than by a computer. It's a pretty simple concept, in my opinion.
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MatthewAce
Captain
Reged: 06/25/04
Posts: 774
Loc: Neveron
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Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: SDan]
#125177 - 02/07/06 06:40 PM (202.156.6.52)
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that's why i said an upgrade to the MG is better. And that upgraded MG must not be fired in order to use its defensive properties.
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Urbies are good.
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CaBhaal
Lieutenant
Reged: 10/11/04
Posts: 599
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Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: MatthewAce]
#125178 - 02/07/06 06:46 PM (24.32.87.123)
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Quote:
And that upgraded MG must not be fired in order to use its defensive properties.
Aye, that was in the original concept.
CaB
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wixer
Sergeant Major
Reged: 09/13/05
Posts: 202
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Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: CaBhaal]
#125179 - 02/07/06 09:34 PM (128.211.252.141)
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it is easier to hit a 20 meter tall 60mph movin mech than a 300km/h moving projectile which is 50cm long and quite slim.
If a mech moves 60mph its easy to predict where it will be a split second later. Even Human controled battlemonsters are heavy and subject to physics. They cant make sudden move within a fracture of a second. Yeah bullets are this fast and would hit this huge mech before one even can say unpredictable. Even the cockpit is huge compared to an idf projectile.
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Toscotto
Lieutenant
Reged: 02/02/06
Posts: 530
Loc: Tacoma WA
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Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: wixer]
#125180 - 02/07/06 10:18 PM (209.152.87.175)
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So I think everyone aggrees that there should be a form of active defense for IDF. right?
It is just the fluff that is in question. Whether it is a MG, Srm, AMS, or a Sonic Belch from Hades that does the job.
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The question is not how far, the question is do you possess the constitution, the depth of faith, to go as far as needed?
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wixer
Sergeant Major
Reged: 09/13/05
Posts: 202
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Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: Toscotto]
#125183 - 02/07/06 11:01 PM (128.211.252.141)
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how about a new unit which does the job? I like new units and there have been some supposed to come last year already. these units should have hell of a sensor, some nice targetting computer and some weapon of a sort. maybe some special mg or an ac or laser. missiles would be neat too they could log on the projectile and follow it. only problem I see, one missile costs more then a cheap idf projectile...
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TheSpork
Corporal
Reged: 08/10/05
Posts: 67
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Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: wixer]
#125189 - 02/08/06 01:38 AM (70.237.232.88)
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How about we not add more shit, and just use what we have, or fix it?
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Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one, and they all pretty much stink -------
Anonymous
"We must respect the other fellow’s religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart."
-H.L. Mencken
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sdog
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 1791
Loc: europe
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Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: TheSpork]
#125199 - 02/08/06 06:22 AM (139.174.165.124)
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i remember a thread named KIS principle
Keep It Simple.
can you imagine how much work it would be to implement a unit that's protection others from fire directed at them? right now at to hit rolls only the firing unit, receiving unit and terrain are considered. with this change you would need to also check all hexes within a distance of 3 for MG mechs, check if those mechs fired and apply their chance to shoot down the IDF round.
and all this work for a crutch to fix some of the worst problems caused by a patch for a patch for a major imbalance of the game.
(a historic overview: rhinos and nemesis got to much range, 2x and 3x range towers got introduced, ranged towers became almost invincible, ripostes with idf5 came to kill em, people used idf5 on ranged towers, next step was snipers.)
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Malachi
Sergeant Major
Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 369
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Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: sdog]
#125201 - 02/08/06 07:12 AM (62.254.128.6)
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Possible solution: Limit on a case by case basis what weapons can be mounted on double range towers and remove triple range towers. For example, AC-5 would be ok, PPC would not be. Large laser would be ok as well as it only out ranges Rhino/nem by 5 hexes but can still fight them effectively. AC-2 would be ok too as it is relatively light damage. all IDF would only be single range, you wana engage snipers on edge of range, use IDF-2s. These are just examples of changes and suggestions, this isn't concrete at all. Any ideas on LRMs? The big ones do a lot of damage but in small clusters so possibly limit to LRM-10?
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sdog
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 1791
Loc: europe
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Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: Malachi]
#125202 - 02/08/06 08:03 AM (139.174.165.124)
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most people use multiple lrm5 mk2 instead of larger lrm launchers on towers. they have a better damage/weight ratio.
i think increasing the range of towers only by a small amount, 2 hex or 4 hex would be a solution. then drop idf as it is now, but introduce indirect fire capabilty to a short ranged weapon or introduce a short ranged weapon. there's still a need to prevent the ac20 hole lurkers from being the uber defense.
indirect fire lrm at half range, or srms (they're hardly usefull right now) reduced number of missiles hit, mech has to stand for indirect fire.
or make MG indirect fire, just rename them into automatic grenade throwers and reduce ammo by 75%. alternatively replace them on all or some mechs.
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sk7
Corporal
Reged: 09/01/05
Posts: 86
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Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: sdog]
#125208 - 02/08/06 10:01 AM (68.205.218.34)
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I have my own ideas when it comes to towers, but if we're going to be talking about them it should be in a new thread. This thread is getting too long to go completely off topic.
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SDan
Sergeant
Reged: 07/27/05
Posts: 127
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Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: sk7]
#125223 - 02/08/06 05:13 PM (69.153.2.47)
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Wixer, a person still has to put the sights on enemy and pull the trigger. What you describe is a Targetting Computer, which we already have. In the case of this system, a machine is doing the aiming and firing.
I suggest that these anti-IDF systems shoot down both allied and enemy IDF so that they don't just become a part of IDF warfare. If they just shot down enemy IDF, people would just add anti-IDF mechs to their Sniper battalions and continue as usual, except warfare would be even slower.
Also, an anti-IDF vehicle design would also be cool, to make anti-IDF more easily accessable.
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tranzoandris
Lieutenant
Reged: 08/27/05
Posts: 406
Loc: Wherever. Whoever. Whatever.
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Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: MatthewAce]
#125224 - 02/08/06 05:29 PM (68.155.120.251)
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Quote:
that's why i said an upgrade to the MG is better. And that upgraded MG must not be fired in order to use its defensive properties.
Agreed. So we are talking only Machine Gun MK III? Makes sense. I support the idea wholeheartedly.
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"The lightning is a lone warrior. It strikes down all without care of what it hits. Just think what a controled army of lightning could do!"
-Undiscovered Journal of Konda in Kamigawa
Try the promo code "Swift is the wind"!
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MatthewAce
Captain
Reged: 06/25/04
Posts: 774
Loc: Neveron
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Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: SDan]
#125229 - 02/08/06 07:42 PM (202.156.6.52)
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Quote:
I suggest that these anti-IDF systems shoot down both allied and enemy IDF so that they don't just become a part of IDF warfare. If they just shot down enemy IDF, people would just add anti-IDF mechs to their Sniper battalions and continue as usual, except warfare would be even slower.
Erm what the heck...
Why would anyone want to shoot down their own firing (unless it's potential Friendly fire)? :P
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Urbies are good.
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SDan
Sergeant
Reged: 07/27/05
Posts: 127
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Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: MatthewAce]
#125232 - 02/08/06 09:01 PM (69.153.2.47)
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That's mainly a balance issue, but I can give you a realistic explanation.
The system's computer detects any projectiles and shoots them down. It cannot tell the difference between a friendly artillery shell and an enemy one.
If it only shot down enemy artillery, all it would do is further bog down IDF warfare because it would take longer to get the same amount of killing done with some of the shells being shot down.
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MatthewAce
Captain
Reged: 06/25/04
Posts: 774
Loc: Neveron
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Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: SDan]
#125238 - 02/09/06 02:12 AM (202.156.6.52)
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werd.... =|
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Urbies are good.
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sdog
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 1791
Loc: europe
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Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: MatthewAce]
#125244 - 02/09/06 04:03 AM (139.174.165.124)
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well, if your artillery is shooting at your own forces, you can consider the shell as not friendly. if the artillery is not firing at your own forces, there's no need or opportunity to shoot down the shell anyways.
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SDan
Sergeant
Reged: 07/27/05
Posts: 127
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Re: Use MG system as anti-IDF/anti-missile
[Re: sdog]
#125287 - 02/09/06 03:25 PM (69.153.2.47)
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Quote:
well, if your artillery is shooting at your own forces, you can consider the shell as not friendly. if the artillery is not firing at your own forces, there's no need or opportunity to shoot down the shell anyways.
And we can further bog down warfare from where it already is.
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