NathanKell
Major
Reged: 04/30/01
Posts: 1310
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Re: Can an Aerospace fighter wing take out a frigate?
#37487 - 08/23/02 11:12 AM (24.44.238.62)
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To put this into modern times:
Your question can be anything from:
"Can a wing of B-1s take out a Buckley-class DE/FF?"
to
"Can a wing of Mig-19s take out a Perry-class FFG?"
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-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson
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BroCaptMaximus
Recruit
Reged: 07/25/02
Posts: 39
Loc: New Mexico
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Re: Can an Aerospace fighter wing take out a frigate?
#37489 - 08/23/02 11:40 AM (198.26.126.12)
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How dare you talk badly about Star Wars. What you failed to mention was that the Empire did a piss poor job of building the Death Star; if they had done a good job there wouldn't have been a weakness in the station's defenses. They say in the movie that the Empire didn't consider a small one man fighter to be a threat so the Empire obviously screwed the pooch.
Also you have to consider that alot of rebels went after the Death Star and alot got killed in the ensuing dogfights and what not. As a whole the Rebels had better fighters and where probally better pilots too.
Finally Luke had the Force and that was what enabled him to make that "lucky shot".
As far as the thread topic goes I think a wing of fighters could take out the frigate. The wing's escorts could punch a hole through the defending fighter screen and allow the heavy fighters to incapacitate the warship. I don't have much experience with aerospace operations but I would think they would work alot like space operations in other games and real life naval combat. Speaking of which are there any torpedoes or large fighter-carried missiles in the Btech universe for attacking warships?
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novakitty
Lieutenant
Reged: 02/18/02
Posts: 447
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Re: Can an Aerospace fighter wing take out a frigate?
#37495 - 08/23/02 12:20 PM (209.242.100.230)
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"Also you have to consider that alot of rebels went after the Death Star and alot got killed in the ensuing dogfights and what not."
All the Rebel fighters in system went in (I do not remember the exact numbers, but it was a large amount for the Rebels), and the only survivors were 2 damaged X-wings, 1 Y-wing, one of the most heavily modified frieght transports in the galaxy, and a damaged prototype TIE Advanced fighter.
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meow
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raven
Recruit
Reged: 05/29/01
Posts: 46
Loc: Maple Glen, Pennsylavania USA
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Re: Can an Aerospace fighter wing take out a frigate?
#37627 - 08/24/02 05:38 PM (68.81.155.30)
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I would have to say that in a general situation no, the attacking aerospace fighters would lose. While there is always a chance for them to win. Most Warships carry a compliment of at least one wing of fighters, and te Warship can compinsate with the occasional capital weapon hit, or with anti-fighter weapons depending with what it is armed. Houses with wings of 36 fighter going against a house Warship that mousnt an 18 fighter wing or less wouls have a better chance of succeding though losses would be incredably high. Theoretically I would put my money on the Warship, because if anything it has enough armor for it's escort to destroy the enemy, even if every fighter goes straight for the warship.
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 6323
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: Can an Aerospace fighter wing take out a frigate?
[Re: Karagin]
#121850 - 12/03/05 11:44 PM (24.243.178.223)
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Back around for another round.
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Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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rathburn
Newbie
Reged: 07/08/05
Posts: 5
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Re: Can an Aerospace fighter wing take out a frigate?
[Re: Nightward]
#122476 - 12/15/05 03:32 PM (69.179.88.35)
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Technically if you have a wing composed of heavy class fighters, and they get off a uniform assault run on the Warship in the first couple of rounds, they can possibly put a big enough dent in the armor if they come in directly on the fore or aft, where the fewest weapons are located. If they can concentrait fire enough to damage either the weapon systems, or take out the KF drive, then they have a good chance. I had a situation like this come up in a game, and the players's fighter wing, which were about 90 percent heavies, managed to take out the KF drive, then came in on nothing but for and aft attack angles, where the fewest weapons were. It took roughly 30 combat rounds, but they managed to take it out.
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Toontje
Colonel
Reged: 01/18/04
Posts: 2578
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Re: Can an Aerospace fighter wing take out a frigate?
[Re: rathburn]
#122597 - 12/17/05 04:35 PM (84.24.165.226)
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If the fighters have one of those fissiles (Alamo?), the WS wouldn't stand a chance no matter the ships involved.
Otherwise, newer WS have decent AAA, but older would have barely anything to defend themselves, and would be shred to tatters unless the fighters run out of fuel.
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Rather to blow up, then.
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Auren_Shiro
Sergeant Major
Reged: 09/21/05
Posts: 276
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Re: Can an Aerospace fighter wing take out a frigate?
[Re: Toontje]
#122603 - 12/17/05 06:04 PM (65.96.9.70)
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Yep. Alamo... One hit One Kill for Fighters against ANYTHING.
Fighter, one man, vs Warship, and a nuke.
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Need...more...Nevcrack...
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 6323
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: Can an Aerospace fighter wing take out a frigate?
[Re: Toontje]
#122614 - 12/17/05 08:39 PM (80.76.250.43)
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Good point on the part about the older ships not having the AAA setup, to bad the powers that be missed that one.
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Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 6323
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: Can an Aerospace fighter wing take out a frigate?
[Re: Auren_Shiro]
#122615 - 12/17/05 08:41 PM (80.76.250.43)
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And people wonder why folks don't like the idea of nukes in BT...
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Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Auren_Shiro
Sergeant Major
Reged: 09/21/05
Posts: 276
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Re: Can an Aerospace fighter wing take out a frigate?
[Re: Karagin]
#122617 - 12/17/05 08:52 PM (65.96.9.70)
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I liked the concept of having a mech going Nuclear and creating a sphere of death, but come on, nukes aren't fun people!
Though the missile was made to counter Clan Warships, so give the IS a break man, its not like the Jihad and its Nuclear Tantrums.
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Need...more...Nevcrack...
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Toontje
Colonel
Reged: 01/18/04
Posts: 2578
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Re: Can an Aerospace fighter wing take out a frigate?
[Re: Auren_Shiro]
#122636 - 12/18/05 06:37 AM (84.24.165.226)
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Well if I recall BS, it was from the SL era. But a 25 hex radius with total destruction is hard on a BT military, or any target.
But without support, my bet is on the fighters no matter the (stock) WS. With support for the WS, even if it only was an assault DS or 2, the balance tips.
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Rather to blow up, then.
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Gnome76
Recruit
Reged: 01/27/04
Posts: 99
Loc: Tulsa
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Re: Can an Aerospace fighter wing take out a frigate?
[Re: Toontje]
#122705 - 12/19/05 06:45 AM (68.13.227.28)
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Sure, no problem. You just need two squads of Apollos, and a squad each of Athenas and Valkyries, you could scuttle a Cain-class Cruiser, 3 minute, tops.
Oh...
Wrong game...
Okay, 6 B-Wings with Mag Pulse warheads, and 6 X-Wings...
I did it again, didn't I?
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Toontje
Colonel
Reged: 01/18/04
Posts: 2578
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Re: Can an Aerospace fighter wing take out a frigate?
[Re: Gnome76]
#122708 - 12/19/05 07:03 AM (84.24.165.226)
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Heh. Don't forget to give 'em some Helios, too.
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Rather to blow up, then.
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Auren_Shiro
Sergeant Major
Reged: 09/21/05
Posts: 276
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Re: Can an Aerospace fighter wing take out a frigate?
[Re: Toontje]
#122739 - 12/20/05 05:05 AM (24.34.100.170)
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Gnome, you've inspired me to go make the Freespace Fighters now... Good job!
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Need...more...Nevcrack...
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Bob_Richter
General
Reged: 04/23/01
Posts: 2886
Loc: Richland, WA (USA)
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Re: Can an Aerospace fighter wing take out a frigate?
[Re: Karagin]
#125420 - 02/12/06 08:01 PM (71.80.150.9)
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Depends on the warship and the fighters.
A Wing being 18 fighters, they could take the Congress and its original compliment of 6...assuming they didn't suck.
They'd have a great deal more trouble with a Kyushu.
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-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
General
Reged: 04/23/01
Posts: 2886
Loc: Richland, WA (USA)
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Re: Can an Aerospace fighter wing take out a frigate?
[Re: Bob_Richter]
#125421 - 02/12/06 08:03 PM (71.80.150.9)
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Hah! Now that's just funny. I didn't even check to see if I'd made a previous response.
Still stand by my new asessment, though. 
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-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
General
Reged: 04/23/01
Posts: 2886
Loc: Richland, WA (USA)
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Re: Can an Aerospace fighter wing take out a frigate?
[Re: Auren_Shiro]
#125422 - 02/12/06 08:07 PM (71.80.150.9)
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Check Jihad Hot Spots: 3070. This is no longer true. In fact, it hasn't been since AT2 came out. Most folks just didn't realise it.
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-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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KamikazeJohnson
Major
Reged: 01/01/02
Posts: 1391
Loc: WINTERpeg, MB, Canada
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Re: Can an Aerospace fighter wing take out a frigate?
[Re: Bob_Richter]
#125426 - 02/12/06 09:54 PM (205.200.6.170)
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AAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BOB'S BACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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I kill $%!^.
And I enjoy the hell out of it.
--Ted Nugent
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Bob_Richter
General
Reged: 04/23/01
Posts: 2886
Loc: Richland, WA (USA)
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Re: Can an Aerospace fighter wing take out a frigate?
[Re: KamikazeJohnson]
#125456 - 02/13/06 08:00 PM (68.119.14.18)
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Yeah. Neat, ain't it?
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-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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OgreMagi
Corporal
Reged: 02/17/06
Posts: 54
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Re: Can an Aerospace fighter wing take out a frigate?
[Re: Bob_Richter]
#127960 - 04/02/06 03:20 AM (24.171.104.47)
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Well I have to agree with Karagin, the question is improperly phrased. There are so many variables and the guestion is too generic but it will give you some ideas to help you phrase it better.
1. what rule set are you using, battle space, AT, AT2, AT2revised it is entirly important to be on the same page.
2. get a copy of AT2r, borrow it or buy it and READ THE RULES. they are the current design, combat rules used in battletech.
3. well if you dont have a way to read the rules or your are a noob to AT2r then here are some way to quantify the question.
A. what era are we talking about (era=date 3067, 3025, 2600 ect)
B. what the frigate in question, a custom job, a canon design
C. What type of fighters are being used, what are thier ordinaces.
Only then can some one give you an answer.
as for the starwars thing its apples and oranges, SW is a hero epic, the one brave man woh defeate evil with one shot ( reminds me of the old westerns I watched as a child). THe SW technology is more about attrition units where a mass of fighters can overwhelm a captical scale vessel and before you think it just ignore the whole deathstar thing and look at the fighters attacking the superstar destroyer.
and bob beat me to the punch, the jihad rules for nukes do not make them super ship killers, but they are dangerous.
the rational is simple there is no air in space. the detonating of a nuke generates a massive pressure wave and allows most of the thermal energy to be converted into kenetic energy. of course ground zero is melted slagg but most of the damage is related to the size and force of the pressure wave.
Sence there is no AIR in space the weapon has to make direct contact with the ship. and suffers only damage related to the thermal effects which is mostly radiated energy upon matter.
Nuke do capital scale damamge to ships 1+davy crocket, 5 for alamo, santa anna 100 which most warships can survive.
The rules do allow do allow for critical hits, each nuke that hits can cause a critical hit. if you get a critical hit you do not use the critical hit table the weapons capitical scale base damamge is multiplyed by 10 and it is applied DIRECTLY TO THE STRUCTURE OF THE SHIP. Per the rules of AT2r each hit on the structure can cause a Critical hit so each point of damamge is rolled for critical hits usually critting out the vessel... then the ship, if it survives from the hit, must make a control roll at +4.
SO they are still very powerful but not the fire and blow up the entire fleet weapon that has been the unstated rule.
hope this helps
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Toontje
Colonel
Reged: 01/18/04
Posts: 2578
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Re: Can an Aerospace fighter wing take out a frigate?
[Re: OgreMagi]
#127985 - 04/03/06 02:52 AM (131.155.85.169)
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Hmm, where are the Jihad nuke rules in? I only know of it from BS (yeah yeah, the abrev. says it all), and therein it was instant kill.
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Rather to blow up, then.
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Cray
General
Reged: 07/27/01
Posts: 4131
Loc: North America
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Re: Can an Aerospace fighter wing take out a frigate?
[Re: Toontje]
#128060 - 04/04/06 08:30 PM (68.200.109.191)
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Quote:
Hmm, where are the Jihad nuke rules in?
Jihad Hotspots:3070.
Quote:
I only know of it from BS (yeah yeah, the abrev. says it all), and therein it was instant kill.
A square hit by a nuke on most published warship designs is still instant kill, at about the same TNs. The small nukes, like Alamos, are relatively survivable for ships with high armor, high SI, and dense anti-missile defenses.
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Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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wrathbow
Newbie
Reged: 04/06/06
Posts: 5
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Re: Can an Aerospace fighter wing take out a frigate?
[Re: Cray]
#128115 - 04/06/06 09:55 AM (71.38.90.96)
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I actually designed a land-air Battlemech specifically for this situation. Equipped with a PPC and two claws. Even a single squadron of the these would have an interesting time battling with the frigate. Considering they are able to claw their way in through the hatches, and the fact that they are effectively docked to the ship making KF jumps pointless... this really gets interesting, doesn't it? Although it takes awhile to do it, they are able to pull it off almost every time... few fighters want to shoot at their ownership to try and get some parasitic objects off the hull, and point defense guns are useless at this range!
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Was that over the top? I can never tell...
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coldwave
Sergeant
Reged: 04/27/03
Posts: 192
Loc: Alaska, USA
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Re: Can an Aerospace fighter wing take out a frigate?
[Re: wrathbow]
#128127 - 04/06/06 07:45 PM (137.229.71.248)
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Creative! Very creative. I'll have to remember that scenario.
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Toontje
Colonel
Reged: 01/18/04
Posts: 2578
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Re: Can an Aerospace fighter wing take out a frigate?
[Re: Cray]
#128170 - 04/08/06 06:53 AM (84.24.165.226)
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groovy, was on my to-get list already.
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Rather to blow up, then.
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wrathbow
Newbie
Reged: 04/06/06
Posts: 5
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Re: Can an Aerospace fighter wing take out a frigate?
[Re: Toontje]
#128177 - 04/08/06 08:38 AM (71.38.90.96)
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What can I say? When it comes to a good fight - I gev vicious!
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Was that over the top? I can never tell...
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Toontje
Colonel
Reged: 01/18/04
Posts: 2578
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Re: Can an Aerospace fighter wing take out a frigate?
[Re: wrathbow]
#128179 - 04/08/06 08:43 AM (84.24.165.226)
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hehe, meant jihad hotspots 3070. I'm no big fan of LAM's. 
I say they are really nice, but are too flexible to fit in my doctrine.
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Rather to blow up, then.
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Cray
General
Reged: 07/27/01
Posts: 4131
Loc: North America
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Re: Can an Aerospace fighter wing take out a frigate?
[Re: wrathbow]
#128231 - 04/10/06 05:53 AM (147.160.136.10)
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Interesting coincidence. I was just thinking of a 'mech-vs-warship scenario and figured a boarding operation was required.
Quote:
I actually designed a land-air Battlemech specifically for this situation. Equipped with a PPC and two claws.
Did you give them extra fuel? One of the outstanding flaws of LAMs in aerospace combat is their low fuel endurance. A warship or dropship has an opportunity to outrun the LAMs just thanks to fuel endurance.
Quote:
Although it takes awhile to do it, they are able to pull it off almost every time... few fighters want to shoot at their ownership to try and get some parasitic objects off the hull, and point defense guns are useless at this range!
Cool. What book addresses the rules for that sort of boarding action?
I seem to recall Combat Ops covers battlemechs in boarding operations, but I might be misremembering Combat Ops' rules for battlemechs in space.
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Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (04/10/06 05:54 AM)
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Karagin
General
Reged: 04/21/01
Posts: 6323
Loc: Ft. Hood TX (Killeen)
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Re: Can an Aerospace fighter wing take out a frigate?
[Re: Bob_Richter]
#128536 - 04/15/06 12:08 AM (216.40.89.184)
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Good point. It woudl really depend on the fighters and how thye were used.
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Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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