Easy way to defeat a spacecraft not moving

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Newtype
10/24/08 08:35 AM
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Have a fast recon unit locate the spacecraft's location. Next have artillery open fire on its location. The Long Tom has a range of 510 BattleTech hexes (255 space hexes). That's way out of range of capital weapons.
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Edited by Newtype (10/24/08 08:38 AM)
Lafeel
10/24/08 12:14 PM
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Sure, easy enough in theory, just one small problem, space craft generally aren't sitting still, and even if they are, you're not. (ever hear of a planetary rotation?)
Newtype
10/25/08 10:14 AM
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It's possible to predict the orbital path of a spacecraft.
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Lafeel
10/25/08 10:47 AM
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Quote:

It's possible to predict the orbital path of a spacecraft.



True, but it is not so easy to predict all the things that can affect the trajectory of a shell during such a long distance shot.
CrayModerator
10/26/08 02:23 PM
97.97.243.184

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Lafeel, you're arguing with HeroChip. This is the guy who thinks a ship with enclosed sails and a fan blowing on them will move.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Lafeel
10/27/08 01:50 AM
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Quote:

Lafeel, you're arguing with HeroChip. This is the guy who thinks a ship with enclosed sails and a fan blowing on them will move.



That does explain a lot of things..Including why this whole train of thought sounded so awfully familiar..*read a thing or two about said player on HMPro*

I'll stop feeding the troll then.
Christopher_Perkins
10/27/08 11:32 PM
24.125.201.167

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Quote:

Have a fast recon unit locate the spacecraft's location. Next have artillery open fire on its location. The Long Tom has a range of 510 BattleTech hexes (255 space hexes). That's way out of range of capital weapons.




Long Tom Artillery piece has a BattleTech Master Rules Range of
20 BattleTech Maps / 100 Seconds = 10,200 Meters / 100 Seconds = 102 Meters/Second
20 AeroTech 1 & 2 Air Hexes / 100 Seconds = 10,200 Meters / 100 Seconds = 102 Meters/Second
2 AeroTech 2 Space / BattleSpace Hexes / 60 Seconds = 36,720 Meters / 60 Seconds = 612 Meters/Second (6x velocity due to lack of atmospheric resistance, 6x time due to 10 Second turn in BT & AT1 Air & AT2 Air in comparison with 60 Second AT2 Space & BattleSpace turn )



Even using the Maximum Tech Ranges for the Artillery Pieces
The Range of the Long Tom Artillery Piece is
30 BattleTech Maps / 100 Seconds = 15,300 Meters / 100 Seconds = 153 Meters/Second
30 AeroTech 1 & 2 Air Hexes / 100 Seconds = 15,300 Meters / 100 Seconds = 153 Meters/Second
3 {AeroTech 2 Space / BattleSpace} Hexes / 60 Seconds = 54,000 Meters / 60 Seconds = 900 Meters/Second


so, far from being the Super Weapon that you claim... they are closer to being Point Defense Weapons


No Wonder the Powers that Be did not waste book-space on Writing about the use of Artillery in Space when no DropShip Captain would expend such massive Ordnance in such a "Hail Mary" play

AutoCannon, Machine Guns, and Lasers ranges are Not fully represented in BattleTech, this is why they have an effective 16-17 x multiple in AT 1&2 Air, the Real minimum velocity of the BattleTech Weapons is found by multiplying the BattleTech Range in hexes by 510 Meters divided by 10 Seconds (BT, AT1 & AT2 share a turn length of 10 Seconds)

IOW, a burst of Autocannon 2 Shells has a minimum in-atmosphere velocity of
24 Hexes * 510 meters/hex / 10 Seconds
12,240 Meters / 10 Seconds
1,224 Meters / Second.

the Same Burst of AutoCannon 2 Shells has a Minimum {AT 2 Space / BattleSpace} Velocity of
24 Hexes * 18,000 Meters/hex / 60 Seconds
432,000 / 60 Seconds
7,200 Meters / Second. (or, 6 times the duration due to turn length * 6 times as fast due to lack of atmospheric resistance)


Upper Maximum Velocity for BattleTech is only available for the Artillery Pieces because they are stated to go a maximum of 2 AT 1&2 Air hexes / BattleTech Maps per AeroTech 1&2 Air turn/BattleTech turn, all other weapon types have no more than 10 Seconds to reach their AeroTech 1&2 Air Range {and no more than 2 Seconds to reach their BattleTech Range}.
Christopher Robin Perkins

It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield


Edited by Christopher_Perkins (10/27/08 11:35 PM)
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
10/28/08 02:51 AM
64.118.122.215

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Quote:

Sure, easy enough in theory, just one small problem, space craft generally aren't sitting still, and even if they are, you're not. (ever hear of a planetary rotation?)




This got me thinking. Is there rules about heavy ground weapons being able to hit targets that are in orbit? My rulebooks don't get into this.

I have used artillery to keep low flying dropships from having a close LZ from possible targets but I never thought of attacking orbiting dropships or mainline ships. Are there such rules and weapons?
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

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Lafeel
10/28/08 04:51 AM
157.157.73.13

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Quote:


This got me thinking. Is there rules about heavy ground weapons being able to hit targets that are in orbit? My rulebooks don't get into this.

I have used artillery to keep low flying dropships from having a close LZ from possible targets but I never thought of attacking orbiting dropships or mainline ships. Are there such rules and weapons?



Nope, and probably never will be. Just too damned hard to fire a shell into orbit, let alone accurately.
Prince_of_Darkness
10/28/08 09:30 AM
205.202.120.139

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Not to mention the fact that they aren't guided AND have trajectory problems associated from gravity.
Christopher_Perkins
10/28/08 06:47 PM
24.125.201.167

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Considering the ranges involved...

30 AT2 Air Hexes @ 2 Air Hexes per 10 Second turn ...

Any fighter or drop ship in Atmosphere would possibly/likely see a shell incoming and be able to dodge at any range greater than 2 AT2 Air Hexes.

in 1 turn a shell would go up half an Atmospheric interface Space Map Level ... IOW, targets on the first (or "ground") row might be in danger. (this map cold be said to represent the vertical Section above the BattleTech BattleField)


in the Atmospheric Combat Map (this map could be said to represent the layer of atmosphere immediately above the BattleTech map that fighters dog fight in... this corresponds exactly to the"ground" row of the Space Map) in the 10 Seconds of flight that the shell would have before it became too predictable, it would be able to go up, at most, to Altitude Level 8 and be 2 AT2 Air Hexes away from the Fireing Unit


on the 2nd Turn the Shell could reach Altitude Level 9 and be up to 4 At2 Air Hexes away from the fireing unit

on the 3nd Turn the Shell would still be in Altitude Level 9 and be up to 6 At2 Air Hexes away from the fireing unit

on the 4th Turn the Shell would still be in Altitude Level 9 and be up to 8 At2 Air Hexes away from the fireing unit

IOW, the only way that an Artillery Piece is a Viable weapon against an airborne target more than 2 AT2 Air Hexes away is if the Target Moves Slow (and is taken unaware) like a BattleMech or is Stationary. And even then it is increased to barely viable
Christopher Robin Perkins

It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
Lafeel
10/28/08 06:59 PM
157.157.73.13

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Thankfully when firing in the other direction one big factor that screws up your accuracy (gravity) works in your favour.

And even then naval bombardement can be off by kilometers, depending on the situation, so you can only imagine how hard it is to hit even the broadside of a moon when all those factors are working against you instead of in favour. (said factors being, among others, gravity, the weather, air resistance, the air temperature..)
Christopher_Perkins
10/29/08 06:35 PM
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Quote:

Not to mention the fact that they aren't guided AND have trajectory problems associated from gravity.




Arrow IV is semi-Guided (I.E. homing on a Laser deignator), with TAG
or Can Explode and hit targets in a 45 Meter Radius at the proper altitude to damage the target... (course, if you miss by more than a single BattleTech Hex you get nothing.)
Christopher Robin Perkins

It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
Christopher_Perkins
10/29/08 06:44 PM
24.125.201.167

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Quote:

Thankfully when firing in the other direction one big factor that screws up your accuracy (gravity) works in your favour.

And even then naval bombardement can be off by kilometers, depending on the situation, so you can only imagine how hard it is to hit even the broadside of a moon when all those factors are working against you instead of in favour. (said factors being, among others, gravity, the weather, air resistance, the air temperature..)




Humm... it takes like 6 BattleTech Turnsfor a Capitol Missile or Capitol Autocannon Shell to go from the Atmospheric Interphase row to the Ground... so its something like 1 BattleTech Turn for each AeroTech 2 Atmospheric Interphase (Space Map) Row between the Fireing Unit and the "Bottom" of the Map (including the "Ground" Row that represents the Atmospheric Combat Map)... Provided that it is on the Interphase Row or Lower when the Artillery piece is Fired...

so... an Artillery Shell would fall 18,000 Meters per 60 Seconds and have a horizontal velocity of 1/3rd AT2 Space Hexes per turn (interface row and Below) or 6,120 Meters per 60 Seconds.

OTOH.. it woudl definately make CounterBattery Fire a real {female dog}
Christopher Robin Perkins

It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
GiovanniBlasini
12/10/08 05:59 PM
64.183.4.46

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Quote:

This got me thinking. Is there rules about heavy ground weapons being able to hit targets that are in orbit? My rulebooks don't get into this.





For capital and, as I recall, subcapital weaponry, yes, those are now covered under Strategic Operations. Smaller weapons don't have the effective range and/or velocity to make surface-to-orbit attacks.
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GiovanniBlasini
12/10/08 06:00 PM
64.183.4.46

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Quote:

Have a fast recon unit locate the spacecraft's location. Next have artillery open fire on its location. The Long Tom has a range of 510 BattleTech hexes (255 space hexes). That's way out of range of capital weapons.




As Chris pointed out, artillery is far too low in velocity to be useful in space-to-space combat. In fact, this has been covered under the rules for some time.
Member of the Pundit Caste
"Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that." -- Col. Saul Tigh, BSG2003
Zandel_Corrin
12/11/08 02:47 PM
123.2.140.247

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Would a long tom shell even be able to reach escape velocity on anything but a 0g plannet?
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
Prince_of_Darkness
12/11/08 02:52 PM
205.202.120.139

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No.
Lafeel
12/11/08 02:54 PM
157.157.75.183

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Quote:

Would a long tom shell even be able to reach escape velocity on anything but a 0g plannet?



Not a chance. Remember it starts slowing down as soon as it leaves the barrel.
Zandel_Corrin
12/11/08 09:42 PM
123.2.140.247

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That's what i thought.... for use in space however..... doesn't a long tom use standard cannon tech? if so you need oxygen to ignite the propellent fully.... gun powder doen't explode in space with no oxygen.
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Lafeel
12/11/08 10:02 PM
157.157.75.183

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Nothing that's not solveable, after all we have guns that can shoot underwater.

And if there's no gravity and no friction it will retain the same velocity throughout. Seeing as it stops accelerating after leaving the barrel.

Doesn't mean that "conventional guns" would make good spaceship weapons though.
Newtype
12/12/08 03:00 PM
207.160.205.13

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Actually BT weapons can be used in space. There's even capital autocannons (very big versions of standard autocannons).
http://www.gp.org
http://www.VoteSwift.org
DOWN WITH CORPORATIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!
POWER TO THE PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Lafeel
12/12/08 03:05 PM
157.157.75.183

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That does not mean you can shoot a autocannon round from the ground on a Earth type planet and expect it to reach orbit. Simply put the muzzle velocity isn't even remotely high enough, and neither is the one from gauss weapons.
Newtype
12/12/08 03:07 PM
207.160.205.13

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That's true but for having a ship like a DropShip equipped with Long Tom Artilleries can travel in system to hunt for other ships. And please reply to my Reusable Fuel Transit Drive replies.
http://www.gp.org
http://www.VoteSwift.org
DOWN WITH CORPORATIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!
POWER TO THE PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Edited by Newtype (12/12/08 03:08 PM)
Lafeel
12/12/08 03:11 PM
157.157.75.183

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Quote:

That's true but for having a ship like a DropShip equipped with Long Tom Artilleries can travel in system to hunt for other ships. And please reply to my Reusable Fuel Transit Drive replies.



No, I've said all I have to say on the matter.

And as for using Long Tom's as anti ship weapons..Sure you could, but their low muzzle velocity means that they'd be terrible at it. Gives the other guy plenty of time to avoid the shell.
Newtype
12/12/08 03:14 PM
207.160.205.13

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Then don't claim my designs won't work if you won't point out what you think is wrong with them. Personnel on hunted ships would have to know of approaching shells.
http://www.gp.org
http://www.VoteSwift.org
DOWN WITH CORPORATIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!
POWER TO THE PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Lafeel
12/12/08 03:22 PM
157.157.75.183

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Quote:

Then don't claim my designs won't work if you won't point out what you think is wrong with them. Personnel on hunted ships would have to know of approaching shells.



That's easy. Didn't you know shells can be tracked by radar? And with modern technology at that.
Newtype
12/12/08 03:26 PM
207.160.205.13

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TW makes no reference to tracking artillery ammo. I wonder if TO does.
http://www.gp.org
http://www.VoteSwift.org
DOWN WITH CORPORATIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!
POWER TO THE PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Lafeel
12/12/08 03:28 PM
157.157.75.183

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Quote:

TW makes no reference to tracking artillery ammo. I wonder if TO does.



Doesn't matter. That technology exists in real life. I don't care what the manual says. If we can do that now, in the 21st century, then they sure as hell can in the 31st.
Newtype
12/12/08 03:32 PM
207.160.205.13

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Then comment on my reusable fuel transit drive. I've shown and explained how it works. Explain what's wrong and I'll admit error.
http://www.gp.org
http://www.VoteSwift.org
DOWN WITH CORPORATIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!
POWER TO THE PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Edited by Newtype (12/12/08 03:33 PM)
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