Katrar
Major
Reged: 09/15/02
Posts: 1314
Loc: Seattle, WA USA, Terra
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Hot Dropping
#157663 - 02/27/10 10:13 PM (67.170.89.133)
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Special note:
falling based on elevation
1 pt per 10 tons (rounded up) x 1+levels in 5 point clusters, full hit table
Special Case Rules
Classic BattleTech Master Rules Revised Edition (FanPro 35000), page 78
DROPPING TROOPS
In some cases, troops achieve the elements of speed and surprise through an assault drop. Such a maneuver requires troops to drop from a DropShip while it is still in flight, either in space or atmosphere. Dropping troops wear special jump packs that allow them to descend to the planet's surface in relative safety.
The assault drop procedure is used as an alternative method of landing troops on a BattleTech mapsheet. Note that only BattleMechs and battle armor-equipped infantry may make assault drops.
The player controlling the dropping troops should nominate a hex on the mapsheet in which each unit will land. For Mechs the player makes a piloting skill roll to determine whether the landing was successful. Modify the target number as usual for the unit's current damage. Because battle armor units have no piloting skill, simply roll 2D6 for each unit to determine whether the landing succeeded or failed. A result of 4 or better indicates a successful drop. A failed roll means the landing failed and the unit missed its target hex.
Dropped troops always land at the end of the Movement Phase. They may not fire or otherwise act for the remainder of that turn, but they be fired upon (attacker modified the to-hit number by +1 for target movement and adds the appropriate modifiers for range, terrain, and so on). Landed units function normally thereafter.
FAILED LANDING DAMAGE
A BattleMech that fails its landing will take damage as though it had fallen a number of elevation levels equal to the number of points by which the roll failed. For example, if a 'Mech with a modified Piloting Skill Taret Number of 6 or higher rolled a 3, the unit would suffer damage as rom a fall of 3 levels. A Piloting Skill Roll for landing that failed by more than 7 means the 'Mech is automatically destroyed.
If a battle armor unit rolls 3 on 2D6, it has failed its landing and each trooper in the unit suffers 1D6 damage. If the result is a 2, each trooper takes 2D6.
FAILED LANDING LOCATION
On a failed landing, the unit will also "scatter" 1D6 hexes for every point by which the result falls below the Piloting Skill target number. Use the Scatter Diagram for Artillery, p 75, to determine the direction of the scatter. If the Piloting Skill Roll for landing fails by 5 or more, the unit misses the target mapsheet entirely and is considered destroyed for purposes of determining victory in the current scenario (use this rule only if playing an ongoing campaign).
KATO'S COMMENTARY
Using CBT's established hot drop rules make much better sense than Randy's bastardized calculations/system.
Piloting Checks... Making the basic hotdrop check a simple piloting check means that avg pilot mechs will usually make the roll, and not suffer too much damage on failure. A skill 4 25 ton mech that rolls a 2 would suffer 9 points of damage on a failed roll. A 100 ton assault mech with a pilot skill of 4 that rolls a 2 would suffer 30 points of damage.
The failed roll by 7 check is almost impossible to fail, really it would take a mech with horrendous damage penalties plus a crappy pilot to begin with to allow a roll to fail by 7. That would be a roll of 2-5 on a BTH of 12. It would require a BTH of 8 to even allow an automatic death at all.
The failed landing location blurb is interesting if it ever becomes possible to preplace for a hotdrop.
Now personally I think its ok to basically not have units die on hot drop. As you can see the actual CBT rolls would mean most of the crap skill hotdrops we see in Nev would result in a damaged unit, but rarely a destroyed one. Actual war units dropping for a battle could be relied upon to make it intact. Damage suffered by a botched roll would be fairly mild for any unit that is halfway trained.
I have to say one thing... if there was to be ANY move to change the hotdrop system it should definitely be after ubermechs are wiped. Ubermechs hotdropping under an actual CBT system, in which it would be presumed they have good piloting skills, would just magnify the effectiveness of these mechs.
Anyhow, CBT hotdropping rules make it clear that hotdrops almost always go as planned, just some pilots take a few points of damage and some don't. Nev used to have automatically successful hotdrops back in the day so this would be a reasonable and faithful adoption of actual CBT rules.
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HoC Gaming - Come war with us!
The HoC Archive - Neveron's definitive historical document
Edited by Katrar (02/27/10 10:18 PM)
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mattbuck
Eeyore
Reged: 02/13/04
Posts: 3285
Loc: Nottingham, UK
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Re: Hot Dropping
[Re: Katrar]
#157664 - 02/27/10 10:22 PM (128.243.253.111)
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I'm happy to have units get fucked up by HD, but it should be rare and only when dropping with a 7/8 skill mech.
Yes, nuke all ubermechs before we do this.
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Haha, you people think admins still look at these forums.
Visit the Platonian! Updated! Stuff! Things! Click!
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Maghetti123
Sergeant Major
Reged: 05/01/04
Posts: 203
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Re: Hot Dropping
[Re: mattbuck]
#157665 - 02/27/10 10:27 PM (67.236.132.187)
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Great post, much better system than one where nothing gets hurt or now where you could die. Though matt has a point, a modification should be made so crappy skilled mechs don't do so well.
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Katrar
Major
Reged: 09/15/02
Posts: 1314
Loc: Seattle, WA USA, Terra
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Re: Hot Dropping
[Re: Maghetti123]
#157666 - 02/27/10 10:35 PM (67.170.89.133)
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Its kind of built in that crappy skilled mechs get hurt. If the piloting skill is 7 for instance and you roll a 3, a 25 tonner takes 12 points of damage.
Think about this system in the context of a future game environment in which walls could be broken by out of dow attacks, and HD's probably cost more than now.
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HoC Gaming - Come war with us!
The HoC Archive - Neveron's definitive historical document
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buc
Captain
Reged: 08/12/05
Posts: 710
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Re: Hot Dropping
[Re: Katrar]
#157667 - 02/27/10 11:13 PM (125.237.151.30)
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All 12 pts to the head :P
Randy-tech
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Rodon
Sergeant
Reged: 01/04/08
Posts: 146
Loc: Augusta, Ga
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Re: Hot Dropping
[Re: buc]
#157673 - 02/28/10 08:31 AM (68.47.123.9)
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Not too long ago I dropped a Stone Rhino with a piloting skill of -2. It died. Should never happen.
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Katrar
Major
Reged: 09/15/02
Posts: 1314
Loc: Seattle, WA USA, Terra
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Re: Hot Dropping
[Re: Rodon]
#157675 - 02/28/10 02:30 PM (67.170.89.133)
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Yeah thats just crap. So many systems on Neveron were tweaked to ensure more things died than were necessary, let alone mandated by established CBT rules. Randy really ratfVcked the game in his search for an extra few bucks.
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HoC Gaming - Come war with us!
The HoC Archive - Neveron's definitive historical document
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KJI_3x6
Lieutenant
Reged: 09/11/06
Posts: 650
Loc: Minnesota, North Korea
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Re: Hot Dropping
[Re: Rodon]
#157682 - 02/28/10 09:23 PM (71.193.82.44)
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Quote:
Not too long ago I dropped a Stone Rhino with a piloting skill of -2. It died. Should never happen.
you're rhino is 1 of the numerous reasons neveron blows. i laugh at your misfortune.
i am still bitter that my mackies all died.
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My d*** rumble in the jungle; your d*** got touched by your uncle.
My d*** double feature screen; your d*** went straight to dvd.
ME > you
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buc
Captain
Reged: 08/12/05
Posts: 710
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Re: Hot Dropping
[Re: KJI_3x6]
#157683 - 02/28/10 11:20 PM (125.237.151.30)
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I had an upgraded ON1-LW at -4 pilotting that had 60+ armour everywhere other than RCT. Guess where it landed.
Bye bye mech
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Katrar
Major
Reged: 09/15/02
Posts: 1314
Loc: Seattle, WA USA, Terra
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Re: Hot Dropping
[Re: buc]
#157684 - 03/01/10 02:56 AM (67.170.89.133)
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Yeah really hotdropping mishaps should only (99% of the time) account for two events:
The mech did not land in a perfectly balanced fashion, taking some dings to various armor. But getting back up and dusting itself off.
Or navigational error and landing in an incorrect location.
The whole mechs constantly plummeting to their deaths thing that Nev has going is SO not supported by the CBT rules.
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HoC Gaming - Come war with us!
The HoC Archive - Neveron's definitive historical document
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Rodon
Sergeant
Reged: 01/04/08
Posts: 146
Loc: Augusta, Ga
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Re: Hot Dropping
[Re: KJI_3x6]
#157687 - 03/01/10 08:05 AM (68.47.123.9)
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Quote:
you're rhino is 1 of the numerous reasons neveron blows. i laugh at your misfortune.
i am still bitter that my mackies all died.
This is uncalled for, and such attitudes are exactly what drives players from Nev. Whether Rhino's are overpowered or not, they are part of the game, and when one reaches high levels they are not at all unusual. Just look at the top mechs by BV and you will find a great many are STR-WIE-1. When other over-powered mechs are removed from the game I will give up mine as well.
Perhaps you should have considered better than using an antiquated POS like the Mackie as your main line mech. I do not however laugh at your misfortune. Live and learn.
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KJI_3x6
Lieutenant
Reged: 09/11/06
Posts: 650
Loc: Minnesota, North Korea
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Re: Hot Dropping
[Re: Rodon]
#157690 - 03/01/10 01:55 PM (71.193.82.44)
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Quote:
This is uncalled for, and such attitudes are exactly what drives players from Nev. Whether Rhino's are overpowered or not, they are part of the game, and when one reaches high levels they are not at all unusual. Just look at the top mechs by BV and you will find a great many are STR-WIE-1. When other over-powered mechs are removed from the game I will give up mine as well.
Perhaps you should have considered better than using an antiquated POS like the Mackie as your main line mech. I do not however laugh at your misfortune. Live and learn.
first off. my attitude drove nobody from nev.
second, of course they're not unusual, the large empires are loaded with dp only items i don't care about them in high level empires. it's the level 3, 4 or 5 that only has a rhino and some grd's for bv, and the [im a silly boy who uses silly words] rhino is damn near untouchable unless you too are some kind of dp player, which, not thta the rhino is invincible, but knowing even if you manage to kill it, the terrorist in charge of the dp player empire will just replace it because thats what dp player do.
third, dp player mechs just perpetuate the cylcle, i need dp player items to really compete with your dp player items, eventually 1 of our dp player items wil get destroyed, then 1 of us replaces dp player items with more dp player items, followed by the endless cycles, and we have to kill the dp player items because the players pop is spread out amongst 4000000000 various 1 pop cities. and who wins? randy or wws, sure as hell nobody else.
fourth. god forbid somebody uses something a bit different for a mech in a level 3 or 4. oh noes, a mackie. they upgrade quite well in fact, 1 of my 2 had 50 upgrades, and not to shabby, it had some insane armor, it got a jump jet, an upgraded LL, and some other stuff i don;t remeber. the other 1 got upgraded 20 times. it ended up with no armor on lt or rt, a ppc that it couldn't actually shoot because it would blow up, the CT had something like 200 armor, and the internals were all well above 200. the point is, oh noes, somebody at a low level doing something different, thta cannot be allowed, we must be loaded with grd's and a dp mech, or grd's and idf towers, oh noes! my 5005050505050050304005050050050050050 1 pop cities are under attack!
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My d*** rumble in the jungle; your d*** got touched by your uncle.
My d*** double feature screen; your d*** went straight to dvd.
ME > you
Edited by ShadowMasterCM (03/23/10 01:26 PM)
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damian
Private
Reged: 02/13/10
Posts: 36
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Re: Hot Dropping
[Re: KJI_3x6]
#157983 - 03/23/10 01:44 AM (98.226.89.23)
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first off KJI chill, people donating keep this game alive, second i drop 8/8 hornets all the time, very few lost to hd, mainly damaged, but in a war along time ago, i dropped 12 mads, all 0 gun/pilot or better, just to have one gone on battle entry, this aspect of neveron very much needs revamping
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Vindication
Corporal
Reged: 01/22/07
Posts: 53
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Re: Hot Dropping
[Re: damian]
#157991 - 03/23/10 09:01 AM (65.87.42.96)
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Hot Dropping: there is a warning on the page that clearly states there is a huge risk in using that method, so shit happens no matter the unit skill.
Sliding in backwards is a mishap I have experienced first hand several times with 2/2 skilled units
its not right but it happens
If it is a coding issue well the new owner can address it since the old admins have a back log of 3 or more years of help tickets they will never answer or fix the bugs associated within those tickets
Ranting about units being destroyed only shows the immaturity level of the rantee,
its a war game things are suppose to be destroyed by purpose or accident
grow up and learn from your mishaps you will enjoy the game more when it is fixed properly
and no I dont care if you like what I have to say on any subject I choose to comment on
Have a nice Day 
--------------------
Old age and Treachery
will overcome Youth
and skill
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damian
Private
Reged: 02/13/10
Posts: 36
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Re: Hot Dropping
[Re: Vindication]
#157997 - 03/23/10 10:41 AM (98.226.89.23)
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vindication, you are missing the point completely,
i dont really care about the unit lost,
im pointing out that the code is messed up,
when 8/8 pilots land safer,and more frequently than a negative piloting skill mech,
something is wrong there, end of story
Kato pointed out in the forums, Randy and WWS set the game up TO KILL stuff,
more often then it should be killed
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KJI_3x6
Lieutenant
Reged: 09/11/06
Posts: 650
Loc: Minnesota, North Korea
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Re: Hot Dropping
[Re: damian]
#158062 - 03/24/10 02:17 PM (71.193.82.44)
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the point is, people want balance. dp mechs are not balanced. dp for rebuilding an empire far more expediently is 100% good, dp for research facilities and tc's is cool, dp to give people who dp an EXTREME advantage in a fight is rediculous. especialy at low levels where you can be whiped out without ever even having hte ability to fight back(ie it's 4am and a dp empire manages to find your mech, and blasts the retarded ai while you sleep. and in a level 3, quite often that mech is 50-75% of your bv, and it took you 5 months to save enough money to buy it)
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My d*** rumble in the jungle; your d*** got touched by your uncle.
My d*** double feature screen; your d*** went straight to dvd.
ME > you
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TRK
Sergeant Major
Reged: 11/05/02
Posts: 254
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Re: Hot Dropping
[Re: KJI_3x6]
#158067 - 03/24/10 03:01 PM (209.89.3.33)
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But if it were much easier to rebuild and buy new mechs, and train new pilots (if you need them) wouldnt that lessen the blow?
When I first started, there was no empire cap. I had a lot of empires and the majority were destroyed overnight. Was it sad? Yes. Was it crippling to me? No. Partly because I had so many (around 10), but also because the mech market was reasonable for the income I made. Also what made it less of a blow, is that I was OK at dueling and could make enough cash during the week to fund my wars on the weekend. I realise that not everyone is good at duleing, or even enjoys it, but the options were there. I had so much fun killing and being killed, it didnt matter. Plus I learned a lot. Most people learn by doing and I think that's one of the things we need.
Hopefully you get my point.
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damian
Private
Reged: 02/13/10
Posts: 36
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Re: Hot Dropping
[Re: TRK]
#158069 - 03/24/10 03:29 PM (98.226.89.23)
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KJI, you say dp for buildings, ect ect is good, but dp used for mechs is bad, heres a clue for ya
90% of larger empires only use dp to double zones, add buildables, buildings ect, ect
not buy more and more dp only mechs, taking out dp only mechs, you loose the mad4a which is the staple mech in most armies keep that in mind
this part is to TRK KJI and Vindication
you cry and whine for balance, but from the sounds of your guys experiences, you were working solo, and didnt have a good crew of guys to watch you stuff while you are away
being hit at 3am your time isnt unfair, its strategy
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TRK
Sergeant Major
Reged: 11/05/02
Posts: 254
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Re: Hot Dropping
[Re: damian]
#158070 - 03/24/10 03:44 PM (209.89.3.33)
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I am not crying and whining for balance, why are you so set on flaming?
If I destroyed one of your empires or killed your mechs at some point, sorry, jeez man.
That aside, all I personally want is for Nev to be fun again. I am merely trying to point out some of the things that made it fun for me. Will the same things make it fun for you? Apparently not. But that's ok, as we've noticed you have a voice too.
And yes, for a time I was working solo. Then I discovered chat, I joined a faction, had a lot of fun, then joined an alliance and had even more fun. I have had tons of help in the past and am sure in the future (if the ball ever gets rolling agian). I have also helped other players, and will also continue to do so.
As far as being hit at 3am, that is a strategy. but neveron has players from all over the world. 3am my time might be 6pm your time, and a perfect time for you to declare war. Thats why it is good to have a diverse player base in the game, and especially your faction.
One of the things that has really hit home for me in these discussions is that players need to be able to recover from devastating losses faster. I think this is the cause of a lot of the newer players leaving and the hatred that has developed over the years.
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buc
Captain
Reged: 08/12/05
Posts: 710
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Re: Hot Dropping
[Re: damian]
#158076 - 03/24/10 04:05 PM (210.86.1.168)
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Quote:
being hit at 3am your time isnt unfair, its strategy
Maybe now days. If you do that purposely so you can hit while someone is off line, you used to be called a pussy. Is that what you are? Most people who like to only hit while someone is offline are simply too scared to hit while they are online. IE no skill. Talk to most (good) players, and the best battles have been against people while they are ACTUALLY ON.
Crazy thought!
Anything that can be changed to encourage pilot v pilot rather than pilot v AI is a good thing in my book!
Just need more people playing.
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damian
Private
Reged: 02/13/10
Posts: 36
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Re: Hot Dropping
[Re: buc]
#158078 - 03/24/10 04:24 PM (98.226.89.23)
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TRK, you took that coment in that line as it was supposed to be, buc yes more players would mean less time zone conflictions which was my point saying strategy, attacking when you are ready and have everything needed, and some extra pilots on hand to help, some times does put other people at disadvantage, but its the attackers fault?
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buc
Captain
Reged: 08/12/05
Posts: 710
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Re: Hot Dropping
[Re: damian]
#158080 - 03/24/10 04:37 PM (210.86.1.168)
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never said it was the attackers fault. but some people wait till someone is offline before hitting so they can do as much damage as possible before someone comes online. today its a tactic, back in the day it was bad form. Or not, depending on who you talk to.
If I attack someone when i get home from work, and they aren't on thats quite a different story.
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Cray
General
Reged: 07/27/01
Posts: 4147
Loc: North America
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Re: Hot Dropping
[Re: buc]
#158085 - 03/24/10 06:43 PM (173.168.115.68)
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Quote:
Quote:
being hit at 3am your time isnt unfair, its strategy
Maybe now days. If you do that purposely so you can hit while someone is off line, you used to be called a pussy. Is that what you are? Most people who like to only hit while someone is offline are simply too scared to hit while they are online. IE no skill. Talk to most (good) players, and the best battles have been against people while they are ACTUALLY ON.
Heya, buc. Why don't you tone it down a bit? There's better ways to make your point without violating the posting rules for directly insulting folks.
--------------------
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Gunner
Sergeant Major
Reged: 07/11/04
Posts: 365
Loc: Hurricane Capital of the World
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Re: Hot Dropping
[Re: Cray]
#158086 - 03/24/10 06:51 PM (70.125.56.19)
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Hey Cray, could you please leave the Neveron moderators to moderate the Neveron section? They don't go running around moderating the rest of the forum. And I don't see a direct insult, I see a question. Thanks and you have a great evening.
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It's a bird...It's a plane...Goddamit! It's another NUKE!
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Vindication
Corporal
Reged: 01/22/07
Posts: 53
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Re: Hot Dropping
[Re: Gunner]
#158087 - 03/24/10 07:13 PM (65.87.54.90)
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wow for the posted section of damians comment directed at me and the others he feels the need to be in direct opposition of
you have no idea who I am in Neveron nor what i have or have had nor what alliances I was in or am in now if you really wanted this to go to a slugging match on Neveron to prove who has the better military or skills or what ever it is you seem to think I am whinning about send me a private message with the names(s) of the empire(s) you want to slug it out with and as soon it is possible we can go for it in a zone we both can choose I got no problem with doing that
now if I have taken your comments out of context then I would of course be in the wrong and be willing to forget the whole matter and move on, but your diatribe against anything that would benefit the game and move game play along instead of leaving it in the current dead end situation it is wallowing in shows little to no vision for a ever changing game (see i have read the discription of the game on the login screen) if it is stactic game play you long for try solitaire or tiddly winks but leave your distatse for others opinions to playing the game where it belongs safely tucked away where only you can hear it
--------------------
Old age and Treachery
will overcome Youth
and skill
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Cray
General
Reged: 07/27/01
Posts: 4147
Loc: North America
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Re: Hot Dropping
[Re: Gunner]
#158088 - 03/24/10 07:22 PM (173.168.115.68)
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Quote:
Hey Cray, could you please leave the Neveron moderators to moderate the Neveron section?
I'm a whole-board moderator. When someone starts tossing around terms like "pussy" and implying cowardice, I'll ask the participants to throttle back. That way no one gets so pissed as to actually violate a posting rule, which hasn't happened here. Yet.
Quote:
And I don't see a direct insult,
There wasn't one, just a thread headed toward unnecessary insults. Any real moderating bans, warnings, etc. will be handed out in private messages. If I'm posting here, I'm trying to keep the thread alive and rolling.
Quote:
They don't go running around moderating the rest of the forum.
They're welcome to venture elsewhere. The rules are the same in all of Sarna.net's forums.
--------------------
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (03/24/10 07:28 PM)
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damian
Private
Reged: 02/13/10
Posts: 36
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Re: Hot Dropping
[Re: Cray]
#158089 - 03/24/10 07:36 PM (98.226.89.23)
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Quote:
Ranting about units being destroyed only shows the immaturity level of the rantee,
its a war game things are suppose to be destroyed by purpose or accident
grow up and learn from your mishaps you will enjoy the game more when it is fixed properly
this was a thread to discuss the topic of Hot Dropping CBT Rules vs. Neveron, and suggested fixes, me and others posted our own problems seen with the system, and we are given this by you vindication.
i say you KJI and TRK, have been doing very little except rant about what happened to you, and have offered very little info, help, or ideas for a better neveron, except your 1 idea to reset the game, which was not liked by me, but rodon and various others
thank you very much Cray, and i do hope this will end this bickering, as far as me not liking an idea tossed out, i dont really care, lots of people dont like my ideas, and i dont like theirs, in the end we are here to toss them out, if we do toss em out, expect to see people dont like it
the best idea i have heard as far as hot dropping and fixing that, was the one of the piloting skill needing a dice roll, for a chance to land fine or take damage, eliminate the death part all together
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Rodon
Sergeant
Reged: 01/04/08
Posts: 146
Loc: Augusta, Ga
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Re: Hot Dropping
[Re: damian]
#158090 - 03/24/10 07:46 PM (70.155.87.66)
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Pookums, LOL, First good laugh I have had in days, Thanks Cray.
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Vindication
Corporal
Reged: 01/22/07
Posts: 53
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Re: Hot Dropping
[Re: damian]
#158091 - 03/24/10 07:49 PM (65.87.54.90)
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you were ranting about losing a mackie or some Mads ( I really dont remeber what units you were upset over and dont care either) that had great skills and how they died while hot dropping I pointed out the it clearly states hot dropping is a risky manuver so if you have several units die or take unreal amounts of damage you were warned. Seriuosly just because a CBT pilot has skills good enough to survive a hot drop with a piloting check roll how does that relate to Neveron a CBT based game not an exact duplicate of CBT
you are mixing apples and ornges and not liking the taste of the resultant fruit salad cause you lost some units in a risky manuver hell Ive lost dozens of mechs from HDing and they have better than average skills it is just part of the game mechanics, possibly put in by Randy and WWS to increase unit destruction who knows I certainly do not and doubt if anyone other than Randy and WWS do
--------------------
Old age and Treachery
will overcome Youth
and skill
Edited by Cray (03/24/10 07:52 PM)
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TRK
Sergeant Major
Reged: 11/05/02
Posts: 254
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Re: Hot Dropping
[Re: Vindication]
#158092 - 03/24/10 08:10 PM (75.159.244.210)
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Doing very little, offering little info?
I think I have made some good suggestions, if you dont see it that way it is your perogative.
As far as ranting goes, I dont think so. If you would like to quote my ranting in recent discussions, it would be appreciated. The times that I have posted about my experiences have been to reinforce my idea or suggestion, not ranting. There is a difference.
I posted the idea of reseting nev to see how it would be recived, obviously by my first post in that thread I did not expect it to be received well. Thats fine. Honestly, I was curious to see how people would react. I dont have any large empires left (which I believe I have stated at least once), so it would not affect me in the ways that it would a player running a higher level empire. Before I started that thread I did realise that a reset could possibly be the end of Nev altogether, but hey worse things have happened.
You seem to keep baiting me into getting personal and starting a flame war. I wont stoop to that level, so give it up. Maybe make some constructive suggestions of your own.
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