Aerofighters can win against 'Mechs most of the time?

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Newtype
10/14/08 09:53 AM
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I noticed that Total Warfare enables aerofighters to have very long ranges in atmosphere when compared to 'Mechs. There's a multiplier for aerofighters' ranges which can keep them out of 'Mech ranges. That's unbalanced.
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Lafeel
10/14/08 03:58 PM
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Not really. Let's face this fact, aerospace fighters aren't exactly what most mech's targeting systems are designed to hit.

Plus there's the small matter of the altitude, and speed..
Christopher_Perkins
10/14/08 04:49 PM
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Actually, Its Perfectly Balanced the way it should be.

How Easy would it be for an M1A1 or M1A2 to Take out a MIG 29 or YAK 36?

It would be Unbalanced if a Ground unit that was designed to fight other ground units was as good at fighting Air Units as Air units that are designed to fight both Ground and Air units were at taking out Ground units.

If you think there is an issue with the Balancing, you need to read a bit more about the universe...
Christopher Robin Perkins

It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
Newtype
10/23/08 02:27 PM
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How about letting 'Mechs & conventional vehicles shoot at aerofighter ranges while letting aerofighters & conventional aircraft get a +1 defensive target movement modifier per thrust point? Since aerofighters & conventional fighters move fast their speed can be more easily tracked using heat sensors.
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Christopher_Perkins
10/24/08 12:02 AM
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BattleMechs and Combat Vehicles have Less Effective Targeting and Tracking Systems than Fighters, this is why the Fighter has Ranges based on 500 meter hexes (unless it is using the "AT2 Units on BattleTech Maps Rules") while the BattleMechs and Combat Vehicles use ranges based on 30 meter hexes.
Christopher Robin Perkins

It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
Newtype
10/24/08 08:26 AM
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Which is why the published rules must be changed so that 'Mechs and conventional vehicles can be on a par with aerounits.
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DOWN WITH CORPORATIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Lafeel
10/24/08 12:12 PM
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Quote:

Which is why the published rules must be changed so that 'Mechs and conventional vehicles can be on a par with aerounits.



NO, absolutely dead wrong. The rules are fine just the way they are, because if they were changed as you are suggestting, no one would use aerospace fighters at all.
Newtype
10/25/08 10:17 AM
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Why not? Or are you trying to tell me that on each BattleTech mapsheet aerounits are to be always used so that they can always prevail?
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Lafeel
10/25/08 10:48 AM
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Quote:

Why not? Or are you trying to tell me that on each BattleTech mapsheet aerounits are to be always used so that they can always prevail?



No, I am saying that the rules are perfectly fine as is. Deal with it.
Newtype
10/26/08 10:21 AM
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They are not perfecly fine. They enable aerounits to outclass 'Mechs & conventional vehicles too easily.
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http://www.VoteSwift.org
DOWN WITH CORPORATIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!
POWER TO THE PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Lafeel
10/26/08 10:32 AM
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Quote:

They are not perfecly fine. They enable aerounits to outclass 'Mechs & conventional vehicles too easily.



Ever seen what modern airpower can do? That by itself should be enough to blow your argument right out of the water.
Newtype
10/26/08 10:45 AM
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I know that competently designed weapons can defeat air power.
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Lafeel
10/26/08 11:02 AM
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Quote:

I know that competently designed weapons can defeat air power.



Not when the aircraft's weapons are designed to hit at six times the range your longest ranged weapons are.

As stated above, a battletech hex is a lot smaller than a Aerotech hex, so much smaller, in fact, that mech's have a range of one hex in AT2.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
10/28/08 02:35 AM
64.118.122.215

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Quote:

Actually, Its Perfectly Balanced the way it should be.

How Easy would it be for an M1A1 or M1A2 to Take out a MIG 29 or YAK 36?

It would be Unbalanced if a Ground unit that was designed to fight other ground units was as good at fighting Air Units as Air units that are designed to fight both Ground and Air units were at taking out Ground units.

If you think there is an issue with the Balancing, you need to read a bit more about the universe...



In the real world. Its just as hard for a jet fighter to hit a tank as it is for a tank to hit a jet fighter with the exception of anti ground fighters like the warthog *My favorite military fixed wing aircraft*. Most of the anti ground attacks that are done by jet aircraft are from large bombers that doing saturating bombing. Of course there are plenty of AA guns and missals to shot down the fighters and bombers. The US's procession anti tank aircraft are now roter aircraft aka helicopters. Fighters are just to valuable to be risking them with attacking tanks. Also smart bombs are useless ageist moving targets like tanks.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

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Prince_of_Darkness
10/28/08 09:34 AM
205.202.120.139

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Quote:

They are not perfecly fine. They enable aerounits to outclass 'Mechs & conventional vehicles too easily.




Too bad.
Newtype
11/04/08 03:42 PM
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More rules for me to RI update.
Lafeel
11/04/08 03:45 PM
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Quote:

More rules for me to RI update.



Seeing as most of your stuff would be level 4, then go right ahead and "update" it. Just don't expect anyone to use it.
Newtype
11/04/08 03:54 PM
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There is no "level 4" or any other numbered rules. There's quick start, introductory, standard or tournament (Total Warfare), advanced (i.e., Tactical Operations), experimental (my RIing) and house rules.
Christopher_Perkins
11/04/08 04:59 PM
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NewType.

There is
Quick Start
---- Published by Catalyst Game Labs in various locations as a teaser


Basic
---- Published in the Classic BattleTech Boxed Set by Catalyst Game Labs

Standard
---- Tournament Legal Game Play Rules Published in Total Warfare by Catalyst Game Labs
---- Construction Rules for Tournament Legal Equipment published in Tech Manual by Catalyst Game Labs

Advanced
---- Non-Tournament Legal Game Play & Construction Rules for Production Equipment Published in various publications by Catalyst Game Labs, most Notably Tactical Operations Manual

Experimental
---- Non-Tournament Legal Game Play & Construction Rules for Prototype Equipment Published in various publications by Catalyst Game Labs, most Notably Tactical Operations Manual
---- This is also probably the category that any equipment that Catalyst Game Labs elects to publish in the Various "Historical: " supplements (Such as Caspars, Land-Air-Mechs, and other Canon equipment that is no longer used in the post 3067 era equipment will fall under.)


Was I clear? Catalyst Game Labs controls Quick Start, Basic, Standard, Advanced, & Experimental rules, and for that matter, any other rules category that it comes up with and does not specifically, in writing, delegate to the Fans.


House Rules
---- Crap that you or I would come up with


Edited by Christopher_Perkins (11/04/08 05:02 PM)
Zandel_Corrin
11/09/08 03:45 PM
123.2.140.247

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Explain how Aero units are OP in BTech play?

Against mechs they spend most of there time off the map.... also just because they can fire that far doesn't mean that they can hit at that far vs mechs that is....

Terrain is a major factor... and even if it's open plains moving mechs are hard to hit from Aero...

Also note that when used right... (Bombing runs from high altitude against targets not moving very far) they will win hands down.... Read the end of the WOLF > FALCON war... the wolf force used aero to bomb the falcons dead.
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
Prince_of_Darkness
11/09/08 09:57 PM
205.202.120.139

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One of the things many people forget is that an Aerospace fighter making a strafing run gets a +2 to hit, and the guns to get rid of that modifier have damn short ranges. Also, LB-10 X autocannons (and LB 5's, sometimes) can mean death to them, especially at the hands of an Annihilator with a good pilot.
Zandel_Corrin
11/10/08 02:45 PM
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That's what i always thought.... Aero good but used against mechs you either miss all the time or get in close and risk being dead....
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
Christopher_Perkins
11/10/08 07:33 PM
76.104.32.151

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Things that can make a Fighters Day REALLY suck

1: LB-X Cluster Munitions get a -3 vs a Flying
Airmech Mode LAM,
Fighter Mode LAM,
VTOL,
VTOL SUV,
Fixed Wing SUV,
Fixed Wing V/STOL SUV,
Conventional Fighter,
AeroSpace Fighter,
Small Craft,
AeroDyne Dropship,
Aerodyne Small Craft
Sphearoid Dropship
Sphearoid Small Craft


2: Artillery Pieces can target a BattleTech (6 m) level... if the Artillery shell misses, it will scatter to explode at the Target Level (or hit Terrain features higher than the target level)

3: Anti-Air Targeting System grants a -1 Modifier vs The Airborne Targets i Listed in #1.



Note, Am not sure that WiGE would be vulnerable to the -3 Cluster bonus vice the -1 Cluster Bonus...
Christopher Robin Perkins

It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
Lafeel
11/10/08 08:01 PM
157.157.106.160

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On that note, how would a WiGE do against a AsF?
Christopher_Perkins
11/11/08 02:40 PM
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Dunno... I think that they count as grounded in BattleTech for the most part... The Targeting and Tracking systems would be comparable to a BattleMech or a Fighter... if they had any at all (q.v. SUV lacking Fire Control) but They woudl have the same Limitations when engaging an Inbound Fighter that a BattleMech would... One Wonders if there is also an Anti-Gournd targeting System like there is an Anti-Air Targeting System?

Wing in Ground Effect vehicles can get no higher than half their wingspan from the ground or they get no lift bonus from the vortices generated by the wing tips...

WiGE move like AirCraft, only they are limited to NOE instead of being able to get to a higher level.

If an Aircraft has a
12 meter wing span, they enter into WiGE when they are at the bottom of Level 2 (6 Meters) and Below
24 meter wing span, they enter into WiGE when they are at the bottom of Level 3 (12 Meters) and Below
36 meter wing span, they enter into WiGE when they are at the bottom of Level 4 (18 Meters) and Below

1 Meter is roughly equivelent to 1 yard.
Christopher Robin Perkins

It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
Lafeel
11/11/08 02:46 PM
157.157.106.160

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Call me strange, but for some reason WiGE always remind me of that "I am Weasel!" episode with the ground plane in it.

I actually think they can fly, just as long as they aren't something like that Caspian Monster the Russkies built a while back. Doesn't mean that they'd be particularly good at it though.
Christopher_Perkins
11/15/08 06:40 PM
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The "Caspian Monster" is Precisely what a Wing in Ground Effect Craft is...

Put Loosely...

Any Air Craft can use the Wing in Ground Effect lift bonus...

But WiGE craft are those pseudo-aircraft with short enough wings that they do not have enough wingspan to remain aloft outside of the Ground Effect's lift boost.

While Hovercraft are more akin to VTOLs with rotating wings most VTOLs have the Rotating Wings on top. most Hover craft have the rotating wings on the bottom. Wing in Ground Effect Craft are AirCraft with wings too short to Fly Higher than Half Their Wing Span...
Christopher Robin Perkins

It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
Christopher_Perkins
11/15/08 06:42 PM
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Have you ever noticed that an airplane seams to get lighter when its trying to land?

i.e. the "takes forever to land this thing" effect... that is when the Jet Liner gets lower than half its wing span and starts to trap the air from its wing tip vortices. That is precisely the Wing in Ground Effect.
Christopher Robin Perkins

It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
Lafeel
11/15/08 06:43 PM
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Quote:

The "Caspian Monster" is Precisely what a Wing in Ground Effect Craft is...
*snip*



All good points, but you missed the one I was making. I didn't mean that they used different principles, I meant that they'd have to be smaller, seeing as the Monster is the world's heaviest aircraft in history.
Newtype
11/26/08 10:00 AM
207.160.205.13

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In a batchall, how does a Clan 'MechWarrior in a 'Mech have a good chance at defeating a Clan AeroPilot in an aerofighter?
GiovanniBlasini
11/27/08 04:03 AM
64.183.4.46

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Quote:

One of the things many people forget is that an Aerospace fighter making a strafing run gets a +2 to hit, and the guns to get rid of that modifier have damn short ranges. Also, LB-10 X autocannons (and LB 5's, sometimes) can mean death to them, especially at the hands of an Annihilator with a good pilot.




One thing I think that's also being missed here is that, while hex sizes in the low-altitude map aerospace fighters use are 500 meters across, that ultimately doesn't matter in terms of game mechanics. Why? Because a bombing or strafing aircraft is passing directly over the hex that contains the ground map the ground-based targets are on, and those ground-based targets get the opportunity, then, to shoot back.
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Christopher_Perkins
11/27/08 10:59 AM
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The AeroTech & AeroTech 2 Air Hexes almost exactly correspond to a single BattleTech Map (if you shift the maps over half a map for each row of maps you get a nearly exact correspondance)

Also... AeroTech units can now (AT2 R / Total Warfare) operate on the BattleTech Map at 8 - 16 BattleTech Hexes per thrust point expended
Christopher Robin Perkins

It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
Xephan
03/14/11 03:20 AM
209.180.139.86

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The rules are covered for such interactions.

There are two ways for a aerospace fighter to interact with a ground unit.

1 Doing a bombing run.

2 Move to map level altitude and do a strafing run.

In both instinces the mech can shoot back, and is a easy target to other planes on the mechs side while peforming at these low altitudes.

They cant just hang out at several time the mechs range and plink at them till they fall over and go boom.

Also im pretty sure the ranges in AeroTech and BattleSpace are for space combat. I hear microgravity and lack of drag improves the range of most weapons.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
03/14/11 12:11 PM
173.128.1.200

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Quote:

Actually, Its Perfectly Balanced the way it should be.

How Easy would it be for an M1A1 or M1A2 to Take out a MIG 29 or YAK 36?

It would be Unbalanced if a Ground unit that was designed to fight other ground units was as good at fighting Air Units as Air units that are designed to fight both Ground and Air units were at taking out Ground units.

If you think there is an issue with the Balancing, you need to read a bit more about the universe...




Jet aircraft can be as infective at targeting ground targets as ground assets are at firing at air targets and vice versus where ground assets are just as affective at targeting jets as jets can be at targeting ground targets. It all depends on what the jet aircraft is and is armed with and what the ground unit is.

I know that the M1A2 has barrel fired missiles, I just don't know if one of then is a SAM. If the M1A2 does have barrel fired SAMs it can take out a jet fighter. If not, just because the tank cant, that does not mean that a PBI that is with the tank is not armed with a shoulder fired SAM.

I have heard in documentaries about fighters that a lot of air jocks would rather be fighting other aircraft than going anywhere near where they will see a lot of triple A fire. One fighter pilot said that he would almost need a diaper so he would not wet his flightsuit when he went against a ground target that has AA defense because the flack was that bad.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

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I am now a General *pain*
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Christopher_Perkins
03/15/11 04:37 PM
138.162.128.55

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AeroTech 2 has two ranges.

Atmospheric Range which is exactly the same as BattleTech except for using hexes that are the size of BattleTech Maps (500 m +/- 10 m)

Space, which is exactly the same as BattleTech except for using hexes that are appx 18,000 meters in size based off of 1 thrust being .5 G.
BattleSpace only had one range - Space

AeroTech 1 had two ranges, atmospheric was the same as in AT2, but the space scale would have been enough to turn the pilots into Patte so it was changed in BS & AT2 (iirc 640 km / 18 G... may have been 6400 km or 178 G)
Christopher Robin Perkins

It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
Christopher_Perkins
03/15/11 04:45 PM
138.162.128.53

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There are Specialty Craft in BattleTech As well.

Anti-Air Targeting Systems (Specialty)
LB-X Autocannon fireing Cluster Shells (All Cluster)
Artillery Fireing Standard Shells set to detonate at the Altitude that a Fighter is passing at.

Another thing is that AeroSpace Fighters and other craft moving on the 500 m atmospheric map will be moving in straight lines 16 hexes long on the BattleTech Scale, this gives a LOT of time for GroPos to bring the weapons to bear.

If a unit has not equipped itself with Anti-Air Specialty Assets or General Purpose Assets with utility against Airborne targets, then they deserve to get Hammered.

Especially considering that All games are Volentary.. unless part of an ongoing campaign.
Christopher Robin Perkins

It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
ChipBurcham
05/16/11 11:09 AM
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Answser my question about Clan MechWarriors vs. Clan AeroPilots or admit you want aerospace units to always defeat ground units.
CrayModerator
05/16/11 08:04 PM
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Quote:

Answser my question about Clan MechWarriors vs. Clan AeroPilots or admit you want aerospace units to always defeat ground units.




Wow, Chip.

The posting rules are pretty simple: 7. You are only allowed to have one account on this forum. Using additional accounts is cause for banning. Similarly, posting as another user without that user's permission is strictly prohibited and cause for banning.

After racking up bans before, you earned a ban for life by coming back under another account. Now you're back again, violating your ban AND using yet another account, and implicitly admitting it by responding to posts you made as NewType. Consider this another life time ban stacked on the last one.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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