Gunner
Sergeant Major
Reged: 07/11/04
Posts: 365
Loc: Hurricane Capital of the World
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Terrain Reset
#162677 - 12/03/11 05:38 PM (173.65.23.244)
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[Note: This topic is in response to Terrain Reset in Neveron News - ShadowMasterCM]
The terrain resets that were done in the past were for non-city zones with no towers placed in them. They didn't ever do a full reset. This needs to be the system used in the future as well because as you said, some of us have placed defenses based on that. I personally placed all the towers in my empire after planning them all out on paper first, taking into account terrain and building locations. It would be pointless to have a 3x range tower of some sort that's currently in a flat zone with little to no woods, and have it suddenly become a treacherous terrain zone with heavy woods and suddenly that 3x range tower is in a 10 deep hole. Now I have to go and scrap my towers in those zones, and put new ones in, or possibly waste my time coming up with some whole new design. While being able to submit a list of 5 zones per level seems like enough, when you consider that level 12 or 13 you have hundreds of cities, it's really not. It would be far better to leave any zones which are currently built in or unbuilt with towers placed alone.
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It's a bird...It's a plane...Goddamit! It's another NUKE!
Edited by ShadowMasterCM (12/19/11 11:14 PM)
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Pimpslap
Sergeant Major
Reged: 03/13/03
Posts: 365
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Re: Terrain Reset
[Re: Gunner]
#162678 - 12/03/11 07:48 PM (74.196.96.143)
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So whats is the suggestion?
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Harbingers of Chaos
COME WAR WITH US!!
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Gunner
Sergeant Major
Reged: 07/11/04
Posts: 365
Loc: Hurricane Capital of the World
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Re: Terrain Reset
[Re: Pimpslap]
#162680 - 12/03/11 08:08 PM (173.65.23.244)
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It's in the Neveron News section in a locked thread. Terrain Reset
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It's a bird...It's a plane...Goddamit! It's another NUKE!
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TGA
Sergeant
Reged: 01/17/05
Posts: 149
Loc: Michigan, USA
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Re: Terrain Reset
[Re: Pimpslap]
#162681 - 12/03/11 08:11 PM (72.53.194.237)
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If he were to only reset the terrain in unbuilt or untowered zones, would it even help anything?
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- Lois: "Peter, how can you tell me to calm down, there are people trying to kill me."
- Stewie: "Really, oh I have so many people to thank. First I would like to thank God, then ummm.... oh yes, SATAN"
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cbtgod
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 1813
Loc: IN A BOX UNDER A HOUSE
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Re: Terrain Reset
[Re: TGA]
#162682 - 12/03/11 10:41 PM (173.168.109.218)
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so if i put wheeled units in flat. and tracked in rough now if i have to remake these zones i may get bent. nope dont like it at all and anyone with a lvl 10 or up dsnt have 25 hrs to ask for certain zones not to be kept. mr SM id look into this since the last time you played with zones ended up with 1000s of my zones which were not bad named. our now named about your panty fetish. Zones Owned: 6,875 how much time would this take? and i placed towers by the cf to have them be usefull now they wont and what happens to all the preplaced units and towers? l8rs DABOSS
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yes its a toad, if you didnt know that you dont know anything about cbt
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buc
Captain
Reged: 08/12/05
Posts: 710
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Re: Terrain Reset
[Re: cbtgod]
#162685 - 12/04/11 12:57 AM (222.155.171.2)
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I love the idea. Yes you would have to turn off war for about 3-4 months to let everyone re-set their defenses, and would prob lose half the player base, but would make war easier I'm sure!
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wonko
Sergeant Major
Reged: 03/08/06
Posts: 273
Loc: park city UT
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Re: Terrain Reset
[Re: buc]
#162689 - 12/04/11 01:36 AM (76.23.60.40)
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this is gonna shut down the game for a very long time.....
just setting defences in one of my emps takes weeks, and i only have little guys.
i can only imagine how bad it will be for anyone with real defences
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Democrats are the root of all evil
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MatthewAce
Captain
Reged: 06/25/04
Posts: 774
Loc: Neveron
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Re: Terrain Reset
[Re: wonko]
#162692 - 12/04/11 01:54 AM (220.255.2.43)
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If let's say this is taken to a larger scale (full-blown gamewide terrain reset (no exception of any terrain) + disabling war for several months), it is also a good opportunity to reduce the battlefield ground down to a more acceptable size (E.G. 60x60 is 36% the size of a 100x100, I'm looking at 79x79 - city arty at 40,40.).
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Urbies are good.
Edited by MatthewAce (12/04/11 02:20 AM)
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cbtgod
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 1813
Loc: IN A BOX UNDER A HOUSE
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Re: Terrain Reset
[Re: MatthewAce]
#162694 - 12/04/11 06:03 AM (173.168.109.218)
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yep you are looking at prob a min 3-4 months game shut down. l8rs DABOSS
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yes its a toad, if you didnt know that you dont know anything about cbt
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ShadowMasterCM
Captain
Reged: 12/07/05
Posts: 916
Loc: New York
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Re: Terrain Reset
[Re: cbtgod]
#162697 - 12/04/11 12:15 PM (24.103.210.226)
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As usual people apparently dont read the full post and the knee jerk reactions start...
I clearly said that I DO NOT think doing a full reset is a good idea. The entire point of that thread was to tell you that I think we need to keep the zones in tact that have actually bothered to build up defenses.
I will post an update, based on these comments, in the main thread tommorow, when I have more time to get back online
Quote:
The terrain resets that were done in the past were for non-city zones with no towers placed in them
Not sure who is recalling the correct version of the past resets, but according to Randy, they where full terrrain resets. He even went so far as to explain how there was player 'complaints' and he simply stated in reply 'it had to be done, adapt to it'. He even said this had been done several times, something along the lines of every few years.
Regardless of how it was done in the past, it needs to be done in the future. The fact that it is going to be done is not up for debate. The reset will be done and it will be evaluated for its usefulness and decide if it needs to be done again in the future.
Quote:
While being able to submit a list of 5 zones per level seems like enough, when you consider that level 12 or 13 you have hundreds of cities, it's really not
This particular aspect of the terrain reset I will consider suggestions to make modifications. The point of the 5 zones per empire was simply that most empires do not have 'planned' defenses set in them. Most are tank batts dropped in them or towers placed randomly.
Again the entire point of the announcement was to have the players that did actually SET UP a defense have a way to preserve those defenses. Based on that 5 per level rule, that gives 60 zones for a L12. Most L12 empires do not have 60 specific defenses set in place.
I will consider a case by case exception to the 5 zones per empire level rule. For some of the old school empires, that where built by the hardcore types 10 years ago, those empires could very well have more than 60. To clarify, I am not concerned with 'saving' random zones that have random tower placement, or even a single 'speed bump' type of defense in place.
I suggest people actually look at their empires and start to create the list for submission. Once we get a few lists to look at, then we have some facts to look at and we can make modifications to the allow number of cities if needed.
Quote:
If he were to only reset the terrain in unbuilt or untowered zones, would it even help anything?
There is a definite problem with that specific server, and with that specific database, in that it has over 1.5 MILLION tables. Every time someone accesses the terrrain, your inquiry needs to sift thru 1.5M tables to get to your data. That creates HUGE lag. Every zone that has terrain created, needs to create the standard 100 x 100 battle map. In that map there now needs to be tables created for the elements of that map, including elevation, rough, tree(s), water and so on. So a simple 100x100 hex battle map generates 10,000 tables.
A significant amount of them where randonly generated, terrain was 'evaluated' by the player, decided it was not a zone worth setting up defenses, and then discarded. Now there is 10,000 hex zones of worthless data just laggging out the maps.
In summary, the game will not need to be shut down, war will not need to be disabled to accomplish this. We are simply flushing out non essential zone terrain data. Once a zone terrain is created, the server stores it 'forever', or until a reset like this is done. The 'forever' part is done on purpose, so that a player does not create/ destroy/ create/ destroy/ create until they get the 'perfect' terrain for the defense they want in that zone.
So STOP panicing, and simply go look at your empires and start to make the list of the zones that would actually be impacted by this.
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Is it true? Do you really suck that bad??
Neveron Promo Code: online gaming rocks
Facebook me!
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Edited by ShadowMasterCM (01/07/12 04:34 PM)
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Gunner
Sergeant Major
Reged: 07/11/04
Posts: 365
Loc: Hurricane Capital of the World
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Re: Terrain Reset
[Re: ShadowMasterCM]
#162699 - 12/04/11 04:26 PM (173.65.23.244)
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I've been here for the terrain resets, and they didn't do full ones, they did non city zones with no towers in them, since towers were put in. All those empty zones people made terrain for so they could fight their battles add up and take up massive space. But an actual defended zone should be untouched.
6/13/03
There is a known problem with terrain creation that has cropped up and is being actively worked on. It is possible that it is a problem with too many zones having been created. If I can not find an alternative solution in the next day or so, I will be deleting large amounts of terrain that have no towers placed in them.
1/29/04
Fixed a bug that was allowing people to cheat by claiming and unclaiming a zone over and over until they got the terrain they wanted. Terrain is now remembered when you unclaim a zone.
7/11/05
Cleaned out 43,500 terrain files from the war server from zones with no units and no buildings. Will reduce database space and speed server performance.
6/22/05
Ran a procudre to clean out unneeded terrain files to make several gigs more space in the database. This should alleviate problems like we had earlier of the database needing to expand to allow more terrain to be created.
I don't disagree they should be done, but they should be done in a way that doesn't affect defenses. Think of all the unclaimed zones out there, or better yet, all the inactive empires that are abandoned, full of created terrain. Why not start with reformatting the terrain of any unclaimed zones after you run the deletion program on all empires level 5 and lower which havent been logged into for 3 months? I see no reason to cause problems or a bunch of added work for the smaller playerbase who are here when there is all that room in the abandoned empires.
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It's a bird...It's a plane...Goddamit! It's another NUKE!
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cbtgod
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 1813
Loc: IN A BOX UNDER A HOUSE
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Re: Terrain Reset
[Re: Gunner]
#162703 - 12/04/11 08:55 PM (173.168.109.218)
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well my bad i just dont want all my zones to end up with i love twinkies or some other thing. i was not on the panic bus. id prob have to recharge my mouse 1-200 times. better yet can you rename my zones? hmmmmmmmmmm id pay dp. id like ,i love the muppets. hey what ever im an uncle and the movie act was pretty good. l8rs DABOSS maybe even better pigs in space for all my zones? or better yet shnber huber ferber?
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yes its a toad, if you didnt know that you dont know anything about cbt
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Utopian
Sergeant
Reged: 02/18/05
Posts: 147
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Re: Terrain Reset
[Re: cbtgod]
#162711 - 12/05/11 01:54 PM (138.163.0.44)
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Question, would a future terrain reset also include changing the LVL 1 map from grid to hex? (that always bugged me...)
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Neveron: A Story of Blood, Sweat and Beverages or: How I learned to stop worrying about Peel while enjoying my beer
http://mattbuck.irongalaxy.com/neveron/index.html
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cbtgod
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 1813
Loc: IN A BOX UNDER A HOUSE
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Re: Terrain Reset
[Re: Utopian]
#162712 - 12/05/11 03:06 PM (173.168.109.218)
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why not add an option like when the soi one pops after a war, for created terrain also? to either keep created terrain or not to? lets face it 99% of the zones we take at low lvls just get unclaimed anyway. this will keep your spec server and data base in good standing. stop the issue before it starts? l8rs DABOSS
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yes its a toad, if you didnt know that you dont know anything about cbt
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buc
Captain
Reged: 08/12/05
Posts: 710
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Re: Terrain Reset
[Re: cbtgod]
#162715 - 12/05/11 10:20 PM (222.152.215.192)
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The % of zones that actually have units and cities in them must be pretty small. Just dont do those ones and you'll clear out 90% im sure
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Katrar
Major
Reged: 09/15/02
Posts: 1314
Loc: Seattle, WA USA, Terra
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Re: Terrain Reset
[Re: buc]
#162727 - 12/06/11 04:51 PM (76.28.186.150)
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I completely agree with Gunner. If this is not a system change (to smaller zones or whatnot) and is just intended, for now, to reclaim db space... all the empty zones and zones taken up by abandoned empires should more than help the situation.
Unless there is a system related reason to totally throw out all our established defenses such as new zone sizes or a revamping of the tower system, I think it would be a terrible move.
Also, Utopian, I agree that a hex based level 1 map system would rock. The grid based system always bugged me too. =P
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HoC Gaming - Come war with us!
The HoC Archive - Neveron's definitive historical document
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Pimpslap
Sergeant Major
Reged: 03/13/03
Posts: 365
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Re: Terrain Reset
[Re: Katrar]
#162728 - 12/06/11 05:08 PM (12.171.57.50)
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The thing to consider would be how a zone sees if it has buildings. It might not be easy to remove zones with buildings from the reset.
Course you could create a list of all zones with buildings and remove those zones from the reset. That would probably be less labor intense then getting list from the player base and then having to deal with the people who don't put in their list, and who WILL complain.
Also sounds like a GREAT time to do the SOI update!!
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Harbingers of Chaos
COME WAR WITH US!!
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ShadowMasterCM
Captain
Reged: 12/07/05
Posts: 916
Loc: New York
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Re: Terrain Reset
[Re: Pimpslap]
#162789 - 12/12/11 02:02 PM (173.243.45.2)
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Thanks Gunner for hunting those updates down and posting them here...saves me having to do it!
So Randy must not remember skipping over certain zones when the reset was done in the past. I will work on how to sort them from the pile and see what results the zones with no units produces.
As for some of the other comments in this thread:
43,500 files...a query counted 1,500,000 tables for terrain. Not sure if that are refering to the same items or not, but it looks like this 'reset' has not been done in 6+ years, so the bloat factor is extra bad.
As for the 'abandoned' empires...as I have stated previously...until Neveron runs properly for 30 days straight, I will NOT run the deletion program. For the players that left due to inactive admins in the last few years, that will be their 'last chance' to reclaim old empires. After 30 solid days, if they have not yet bothered to log in, well then they can start all over.
To be clear, this terrain reset is NOT about gaining HD space. Its about removing bloat from the database, so that a simple query does not have to churn through an excessive amount of pointless data. With the new hardware, we will be increasing HD space by factors of 8X to 16X, as well as increasing read/write speeds by factors of 3X+, as well as moving to the newer bandwidths of SAS over the older SCSI technology. All of these factors SHOULD provide some performance improvements overall. However bloated databases are still bloated databases and will need to have maintenance performed on them from time to time. Many of you have noticed 'lag' in the 6:30 PM [server time] period...thats all due to DATABASE maintenance trying to keep things lively
as for 'hex' maps...I like that idea as well, and already have that idea on the list! I also would like to see Neveron add some decent graphics on the map, as well as the return of the zoom options. Here is a glimpse of where I hope to get things some day...
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Is it true? Do you really suck that bad??
Neveron Promo Code: online gaming rocks
Facebook me!
My Space
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KJI_3x6
Lieutenant
Reged: 09/11/06
Posts: 650
Loc: Minnesota, North Korea
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Re: Terrain Reset
[Re: ShadowMasterCM]
#162797 - 12/12/11 07:28 PM (76.17.188.99)
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Quote:
Here is a glimpse of where I hope to get things some day...
get there and i might donate. that made me oddly hard.
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My d*** rumble in the jungle; your d*** got touched by your uncle.
My d*** double feature screen; your d*** went straight to dvd.
ME > you
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ghostrider
Lieutenant
Reged: 03/26/10
Posts: 522
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Re: Terrain Reset
[Re: KJI_3x6]
#162800 - 12/12/11 11:47 PM (70.173.25.223)
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could just save yourself some problems and make standard terrain sets. Have several maps and just number them so it would look up x map and then add in anything like buildings. Might also make a good dp option to change a map to one you like. Maybe go as far as having building sets as well.
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cbtgod
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 1813
Loc: IN A BOX UNDER A HOUSE
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Re: Terrain Reset
[Re: ghostrider]
#162801 - 12/12/11 11:56 PM (173.168.109.218)
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id also have to assume we would have a terrain client of some kind? l8rs DABOSS
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yes its a toad, if you didnt know that you dont know anything about cbt
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Malachi
Sergeant Major
Reged: 04/19/04
Posts: 369
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Re: Terrain Reset
[Re: cbtgod]
#162872 - 12/19/11 11:50 AM (92.5.195.153)
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Standard maps would make for rather limited options. The best suggestion I think comes from cbtgod, about the option to wipe terrain on unclaiming zones. Of course this does go back to the claim/unclaim problem previously stated.
Would it be possible to set it so after say 30 RL days of no activity in a zone (unbuilt, unattacked, unclicked on even) it wipes the terrain data automatically? Only for zones with no units/parts/anything occurring in them.
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TGA
Sergeant
Reged: 01/17/05
Posts: 149
Loc: Michigan, USA
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Re: Terrain Reset
[Re: Malachi]
#162875 - 12/19/11 01:28 PM (76.20.128.52)
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Where exactly do we stand on this? Are we expecting a full terrain reset, or just the zones with no units in them?
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- Lois: "Peter, how can you tell me to calm down, there are people trying to kill me."
- Stewie: "Really, oh I have so many people to thank. First I would like to thank God, then ummm.... oh yes, SATAN"
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buc
Captain
Reged: 08/12/05
Posts: 710
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Re: Terrain Reset
[Re: TGA]
#162876 - 12/19/11 01:38 PM (222.153.236.231)
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It will be whatever Shadow decides to do, whether we like it or not.
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TRK
Sergeant Major
Reged: 11/05/02
Posts: 254
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Re: Terrain Reset
[Re: buc]
#162887 - 12/19/11 07:43 PM (173.181.67.112)
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Yep, hate to tell you guys but I warned you. He is playing around with your hard work and possible RL money. Just playing, not actually accomplishing anything except weird random "bugs" that just pop up out of nowhere....
Where do you get your information from SM? Rhetorical, you cant even be bothered to go through old updates, I sure as hell believe that you absolutely did NOT check out empires for yourself. Every single player I know (albeit, not that many) ceated defences based on terrain. Your comment about how it wont afftect the current player base much shows you really care.
If you actually think that you can accomplish that sort of look with the way you are going, you are just dreaming man. Completely unatainble to someone like you. Hell, you arent even sure how to reset terrain safely are you? Is Randy sure? I hope so, for the sake of current players.
I know I said I wouldn't post anymore, but you know...I lied.
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ShadowMasterCM
Captain
Reged: 12/07/05
Posts: 916
Loc: New York
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Re: Terrain Reset
[Re: TRK]
#162892 - 12/19/11 11:34 PM (24.103.210.226)
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buc, grow up already
Match, you really need to get the chip off your shoulder
I got the information from the creator of the game. No I did not bother to go verify that what he thought was confirmed in the past 10 years of disorganized updates.
What I did bother to do was to make a post here in the forums where all current players would have an opportunity to read about them and be informed.
I never stated that I checked any empires for any data. I stated that I looked at the database as a whole, which was incredibly large, far to large to be used efficiently for any useful processing, aka 'bloated'. You can all verify that the game suffers from severe lag when using anything to do with battles and maps...well guess what database is bloated? The TERRAIN database.
When you get down off your high horse, take a few minutes to go read the official post on the terrain reset as well as reread my comments above. I am well aware that players built defenses in zones, hence my posting the announcement for those very players to get me a list of zones they do not want the terrain reset in! Ah DUH!
Where exactly did I say 'it wont affect the current player base much'?
that sort of look? ...
whats unatainable by someone like me? ...
at this point your just making pointless rambilings...so Ill stop responding to them
--------------------
Is it true? Do you really suck that bad??
Neveron Promo Code: online gaming rocks
Facebook me!
My Space
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buc
Captain
Reged: 08/12/05
Posts: 710
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Re: Terrain Reset
[Re: ShadowMasterCM]
#162893 - 12/20/11 12:35 AM (222.153.236.231)
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Shadow, you seem to be falling into Randy's trap, that somehow this game will continue (and get better) without the vets. Like him, you seem to constantly give us 'the finger' if we don't agree with you, or if we complain about a problem.
Generally people play this game out of some nostalgia of days past, and/or because of the other people that play it.
You can try to avoid all responsibility for the reactions of your playerbase, by suggesting we need to grow up, or 'have a chip on our shoulder', but our reactions (and those who simply dont come back) have a basis.
I have been a large supporter of you and what you were trying to do, along with the future of neveron. I have played this game for over 10 years, and have been a (I hope) great help to both new players and to vets.
You have shown that you do not listen, and you dont give a stuff about your playerbase. You do whatever it takes, and call us whatever names you can to avoid manning up and doing something about it.
We know you work another job, and dont get paid for nev. I dont need to hear you use that as an excuse for things. It is your attitude towards us that is the problem. It was Randys problem at the end, and WWS' problem too. You push people away from nev and away from supporting what you do.
Perfect example, I would say mattbuck and I were 2 of the most helpful people you had working with you. Managers of #neveron, Player Admins etc etc. I can't think of one time you ever listened. You can say its our problem we both stepped down, we say it's yours. And long term, Nev misses out.
So, say I need to grow up if you wish, just remember, no 'grown ups' play this game.
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Maghetti123
Sergeant Major
Reged: 05/01/04
Posts: 203
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Re: Terrain Reset
[Re: buc]
#162895 - 12/20/11 01:28 AM (184.1.118.183)
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SM, though I do not support the way in which Buc has questioned you, I do get where he is coming from. You often give off the impression your mind is made up before the discussions even begin. Many times me, buc, and mattback have spent hours trying to make a point to you and you have largely ignored our suggestions, giving off an impression of rejection from before the discussion begins. I can't say for certain this is the reality, but it is how it has always felt.
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ShadowMasterCM
Captain
Reged: 12/07/05
Posts: 916
Loc: New York
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Re: Terrain Reset
[Re: Maghetti123]
#162896 - 12/20/11 02:48 AM (24.103.210.226)
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Mags I appreciate you taking the time to comment here. I will try yet again to explain how I try to do things.
I do not have my mind made up on most topics before I open them up to public discussion. What would be the point of inviting other opinions in that case?
I do however have a general idea of what I would like to accomplish with a particular topic before I run off half cocked and start spewing malformed ideas publically. That seems to be the only logical way to do things to me.
As for the game, and its future direction...there are a lot of people with a lot of ideas. Ive been hearing those ideas from people since before I ever thought about buying Neveron. Not every idea is a good one. Not every idea can actually become a reality. That does not make those ideas any less important to the brain storming or planning stages of any concept. There are also unforseen issues that can force the best laid plans to be totally scrapped and started over. All that being said, simply because an idea is not 'used' does not mean that it was not given fair consideration.
Then there are the aspects of 'the big picture'. Far to often when people are thinking about their ideas, they tend to think in a flat view, or at best a 2 dimensional process. The trouble is that there are MANY factors outside of that limited view that impact the larger decision making process. Things like hardware...the expenses to purchase and then maintain it, the software and the constant evolution that most major professional software goes thru, forcing constant changes to anything that relies heavily on it, including games like Neveron. This doesnt even begin to touch on the issues of the game code itself.
Then there are the issues with the 'concepts' of Neveron itself. One group of players likes this concept. Another group hates it. Then there are of course the ones who really dont care either way. This is the typical break down for almost every aspect of Neveron. Take a serious review of all the various forums and updates and chat logs and you will see that every part of Neverons development came from player wishes. In order to fill the wishes of the likers, you need to 'disregard' the wishes of the haters.
When I look at anything about Neveron and its future, I look at one thing and one thing alone. The long term, big picture, generally accepted features that will help this game recover and continue to grow. Sometimes that means adding or removing old features. Sometimes that means adding in new concepts, both minor and major. I never will make choices on what the current group of 'out spoken' players insist will make or break the game.
The reality of it is this...players come and players go. Neveron is no different than any other game out there in the sense that it can not expect its players to stay here forever. Some people will last a few months, others a few years. Eventually tho EVERY player will reach a point where the entertainment value of this game runs out for them, and at that point they will move onto other things.
Players used to scream all the time that it took forever to fight wars cause of speed bump tactics. Forced ABR was added and now everyone hates it.
Players used to scream all the time that they hated losing their entire empire from an attack over night. Cease Fires where added and now everyone complains it takes to long to end a war.
Players say they want the ability to attack any level again, just make it really insanely exspensive to do it. Whats the point then if only a few rare empires can actually do it? Many of the people that want it returned want it so that they can sell and trade cities...not because it adds excitment to the game. Most new players think its insane that a L13 could attack a L8, let alone a L2. Neveron needs to find ways to increase the average empires income/ economy...not find silly ways for the empires that have funds to waste them.
These are but a few of the ideas that I have seemingly 'rejected' with out consideration of any player opinions. Well let me assure you that in my 5 years as a player, I was watching very closely what was working and what was not working. I have also heard many of these discussions over and over and over again during that 5 years, and have had plenty of time to form my own opinions on each of them. I have also had a significant number of conversations with new players, about what they liked and what they didnt like about Neveron. Those opinions matter to me as well.
Then there is of course the view point...that since I didnt actually play Neveron during its 'peak' periods...I couldnt possibly understand its appeal and its complexities. As if somehow my other life experiences couldnt possibly help me understand how 'wonderful' things where. To be honest, one of the biggest points I hear discussed of the good ole days, was the utter chaos that could unfold at any momement. Well some of that very chaos is exactly whats wrong with this game at is core. Empires grew to fast. The economy got turned on its ear practically overnight. The initial market pricing was just slapped together with no long term economy in mind. Everything was boosted here and given away there. All these things could never sustain a long term game environment.
That is of course one more point that I weight heavily when I 'make up my mind'...can a concept actually help the game and survive in the long term...or is this some sort of 'band aid' that players love to complain about Randy using all the time. You may not be happy with the 'slow progress' of Neveron since the sale, but I can assure you that when we do get to the point where we can make changes, BIG changes, you wont be happy with the time I will allot warning players of a coming change. Most people will sit in chat and piss and moan about the changes and not actually do anything to prep for them.
Before any of you say 'Thats not me'...ask yourself a few questions
- Have I removed all the ammoless towers from my empire? It has been stated that those towers will be fixed and I will have literally towers with no ammo defending my cities!
- Have I started to work on the list of zones in my empires that I do NOT want the terrain reset in? Will I be happy when my entire core defenses get nuetralized because I failed to prep a list of exemptions?
- Have I started planning my new offensive units to replace the upgraded units I currently have in my empires? Will I suddenly find myself with a bunch of average mechs defending my empire all of a sudden?
- Have I started to think about how my empire defenses will be impacted when the Auto Claim SOI program is rolled out? How will the Auto Unclaim SOI portion impact my empires? Can my empire survive with out its walls as its main defenses?
- Have I decided how I will manage my empire once the recylce bin loophole is fixed? What will I do with those hundreds to thousands of tanks hiding in there? What will happen to my empires income when I dont get that negative maintenance fee any longer?
All of these ideas have been mentioned, discussed, beaten to death and other wise mangled...yet I still have not received a single help ticket requesting zone exemptions for the terrain reset that is scheduled for some time in January. Ammoless towers might very well be 'fixed' in January as well. Upgrade option will likely get disabled in Jan as well. Recycle bin will likely get fixed as well in Jan.
Are you all ready for any of this? Or are you to worried about whether or not Im listening to player opinions. Trust me, Im listening, to EVERYONE, and that means everything, on everyside, will eventually get fixed or repaired...even tho that means that someone, somewhere, is going to throw a fit about it.
So the final point is that just because your idea is not embraced by Neveron does not mean it was disregarded from the start. So what ever feelings are causing people to feel that way, are being generated frm within, and that is one thing any amount of expert coding can not fix.
To clarify a final point...even tho Mags was the player to express his thoughts and opinions in a respectful manner here in this post...this reply is really directed at everyone out there thinking right now what a tool I am
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Neveron Promo Code: online gaming rocks
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Edited by ShadowMasterCM (12/20/11 03:01 AM)
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Katrar
Major
Reged: 09/15/02
Posts: 1314
Loc: Seattle, WA USA, Terra
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Re: Terrain Reset
[Re: ShadowMasterCM]
#162898 - 12/20/11 05:46 AM (76.28.186.150)
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Personally I feel the old ways were better, not best they could have been. Being able to out of DOW attack up/down (NOT dow down) was better, for many reasons, but not best. Almost everything about the years 2001-2005 were better, but not the best they could have been.
The thing that vets like us KNOW, from our experience, is that the old way worked. It was flawed in many ways. But the flaws were completely overcome by the way it did, in fact, come together as a game. SM, I've said this before but due to the references to the past in this thread, I'll say again why I think the ONLY thing that will work in Neveron's mid term future is a return to the past.
The reason is the breathing room it would give Neveron to work its way into the future. As of now it appears that we will be dealing with Nev more or less *AS-IS* until such a time as massive system redesigns can be implemented. That could take years.
Old Nev, the kind most of us that still play remember, would at least give Nev a new lease on life... to be fun again, and give you time (perhaps years even, if needed) to take those big next steps to taking Neveron and turning it into a new game. 3d client based graphical overhaul? That's a new game. I mean new, ground up, scrap everything game.
So instead of pretty much everyone hating the game but continuing to play because of friendships, rivalries and history (and investment), returning to Old Nev would reinvigorate the game in a way that would make its future survival - in whatever form - more likely.
Nobody here was 100% happy with Old Nev. I wasn't. At the time especially I had many reasons to dislike it. However, it was 500% better than the crap that Nev is now. Old Nev was a great game that needed to find itself, and fix some of its problems. New Nev is a very mediocre game that has lost itself and needs to fix all of its problems.
To me, that is why we ask for old systems that may seem flawed when looked at individually. They perhaps are, from a purely technical standpoint. And thats the problem, you are looking at them without the benefit of seeing how it actually fit together. How it worked and why it worked.
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HoC Gaming - Come war with us!
The HoC Archive - Neveron's definitive historical document
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Katrar
Major
Reged: 09/15/02
Posts: 1314
Loc: Seattle, WA USA, Terra
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Re: Terrain Reset
[Re: Katrar]
#162899 - 12/20/11 05:52 AM (76.28.186.150)
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Also, just as a long time player, its maddening to me to see 85% of old Nev's problems solvable with a melding of old and new. Things like CF's for instance eliminate the overnight empire destruction. Most of the biggest complaints about old nev are solved to some degree or another by modern developments. A working idea for the merging of old and new has pretty much been laid out by the vast majority of old players, who 99% unanimously agree on the reasoning and worth of the suggestions. People that remember when the game was fun. To find a way to integrate the two games... old and new... as described by these players seems less difficult than developing entirely new systems and entirely new code. That's frustrating to me.
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HoC Gaming - Come war with us!
The HoC Archive - Neveron's definitive historical document
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Maghetti123
Sergeant Major
Reged: 05/01/04
Posts: 203
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Re: Terrain Reset
[Re: Katrar]
#162903 - 12/20/11 08:38 AM (184.1.118.183)
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I could type to you a long multi-paragraph response but instead I will say these two things briefly. The complaints directed at you SM is that you appear to not really be looking at neveron in the ways you claim to be, you can't counter the thing in question with the thing in question
Also, on your part about attacking any level empire, you still do not understand what the concept is, so your mentioning it here is a bit uncalled for. With that said, I have altered it, removing the idea of bigger empires attacking smaller empires for nev cash and added it to my ideas page for opening up war I would like your thoughts on. The thread is called "Removing Restrictions to Land War."
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Maghetti123
Sergeant Major
Reged: 05/01/04
Posts: 203
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Re: Terrain Reset
[Re: Katrar]
#162906 - 12/20/11 09:12 AM (184.1.118.183)
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Yes Kato I feel the same. It is pretty much agreed to by 99% of people on exactly how to mix together old nev and new nev to solve nevs problems, only person not on the same page seems to be SM. It is a bit frustrating.
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TRK
Sergeant Major
Reged: 11/05/02
Posts: 254
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Re: Terrain Reset
[Re: Maghetti123]
#162907 - 12/20/11 10:53 AM (208.118.89.26)
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He doesn't get it guys, will he ever?
I hope so, but it is not looking good.
To answer you SM (of course feel free to ignore one of your players).
■Have I removed all the ammoless towers from my empire? It has been stated that those towers will be fixed and I will have literally towers with no ammo defending my cities!
Yes, it took about two months for a lvl 7. God help the level 12's. Not surprising if they are not done.
■Have I started to work on the list of zones in my empires that I do NOT want the terrain reset in? Will I be happy when my entire core defenses get nuetralized because I failed to prep a list of exemptions?
No, you got me on that one.
■Have I started planning my new offensive units to replace the upgraded units I currently have in my empires? Will I suddenly find myself with a bunch of average mechs defending my empire all of a sudden?
Yes.
■Have I started to think about how my empire defenses will be impacted when the Auto Claim SOI program is rolled out? How will the Auto Unclaim SOI portion impact my empires? Can my empire survive with out its walls as its main defenses?
Yes, no corner towers here! Again maybe a couple of months of mind numbing pleasure.
■Have I decided how I will manage my empire once the recylce bin loophole is fixed? What will I do with those hundreds to thousands of tanks hiding in there? What will happen to my empires income when I dont get that negative maintenance fee any longer?
Yes, I was going to donate for some doubled income zones, I guess you know that aint happening anymore.
I have also been playing this game for over 10 years. A few players have never left, some left for a short time, but we came back. Why SM? Seriously why in the hell would I play a game for 10 YEARS?
Quit lying to yourself, it is counter productive.
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Protege
Corporal
Reged: 04/19/06
Posts: 71
Loc: Bakore Village
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Re: Terrain Reset
[Re: ShadowMasterCM]
#162925 - 12/21/11 05:01 AM (65.87.44.157)
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Hi! You are going to delete the terrain I've spent MONTHS if not YEARS building up specific, not decommissionable defenses in so that I can RECREATE the terrain, spent MORE time doing it again, so you can scrap my defensive structure AGAIN when "THE DATABASE IS GETTING FULL! OMFG! RUN FOR COVER!!!"? How about a much simpler, quicker, tried-and-true solution:
DELETE ALL THE INACTIVE EMPIRES!!!
It's been a year. The old players coming back, have. The ones that haven't, won't. Now we need fresh blood, and a bunch of empires laying around taking up space and server time while contributing NOTHING to the game but lag from checks will NOT get new players.
TADA! Problem not solved, but it's a whole shot better than scrapping YEARS of peoples work due to admin decision. That's what got Randy in the mess he faced.
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I've stopped being nice? When the hell did I ever START being nice?
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Vindication
Corporal
Reged: 01/22/07
Posts: 53
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Re: Terrain Reset
[Re: TRK]
#162926 - 12/21/11 05:07 AM (65.87.44.157)
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resetting terrain with a list that may or may not be approved? why dont you just delete all empires in the game and be done with it? iirc Randy did the terrain reset on zones that had defenders in them and all the towers lined up in a nice straight line totaly screwing the defenses of the city and this was without any sort of notice. That particular day cost Nev a donator and long time player who's empire was immediatley attacked and wrecked because all of his defenses had been reset. how is it that admins cant seem to learn from the past and why would you seek advice from a former admin who walked away even while still making a lucrative income from the game he was tired of dealing with. Is anybody else seeing the problem here? He no longer owns the game why would he care what happens to it? SM you need to find better sources for info on coding not the band-aid crap the former owners used that you **** about constanly. take a annex course or a on-line course or get some help from players that have already offered, you can't have any more of a prob from the help than you have currently without it.
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Old age and Treachery
will overcome Youth
and skill
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ShadowMasterCM
Captain
Reged: 12/07/05
Posts: 916
Loc: New York
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Re: Terrain Reset
[Re: Vindication]
#162927 - 12/21/11 06:24 AM (24.103.210.226)
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Protege, you need to go reread the announcement. you clearly missed some key points in it
The 'inactive' empire data is in a seperate table, and contains an insignificant amount of data, that actually creates little, if any, lag to the game.
As I have stated before, the 10 largest empires in the game consume far more resources and create a significant amount of the games lag issues.
This is not the fault of the top empires, it is the fault of the way the game database and the code that interacts with it, simply said the 'games design'.
That however does not change the fact that in order for the game to grow, we need to find short term fixes until a long term solution can be put into place. Things like Terrain Resets are a short term fix. Reducing the size of the battle maps from 100 x 100 is a long term solution.
Vindication, the statement about approving the zones was to clarify that a zone would not be included simply because a player submitted it. The biggest issue I expect there is a player submitting every zone in their empire because they had placed a single tower in a single hole and considered that a 'set up defense'.
I do recall an issue about towers all lined up in the past. I dont recall that it had anything to do with a terrain reset. Gunner had stated that the past terrain resets had never included defened zones. Randy had stated he thought he reset all zones. Now your saying he did reset terrain with defenses. Can someone please confirm this? Is there an update to support your claim that this was a terrain reset issue Vindication?
To everyone:
The terrain database is one of the TOP reason for lag in the game. It is NOT the only reason for lag. In an effort to improve the overall game performance in the future, this sort of thing needs to be done, until a better solution can be developed and implemented into the game.
Please go read the original announcement again. I stated there that I don't think full terrain resets, specifically zones with defenses in place, is a good idea. That means I don't think it should be done to those zones. That was the point of the entire post. I asked players to get a list of zones they want 'protected' from a terrain reset.
Please be sure to read forum posts completely before posting some unneeded knee jerk reactions to them
--------------------
Is it true? Do you really suck that bad??
Neveron Promo Code: online gaming rocks
Facebook me!
My Space
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cbtgod
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 1813
Loc: IN A BOX UNDER A HOUSE
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Re: Terrain Reset
[Re: ShadowMasterCM]
#162933 - 12/21/11 08:18 AM (173.168.109.218)
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*sigh* its called a client? please look into this aspect. l8rs DABOSS
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yes its a toad, if you didnt know that you dont know anything about cbt
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TRK
Sergeant Major
Reged: 11/05/02
Posts: 254
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Re: Terrain Reset
[Re: cbtgod]
#162935 - 12/21/11 09:32 AM (208.118.89.26)
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Knowing the past of a computer system, what was done, how it was done etc is very usefull.
Does it really matter what was done with the terrain before?
One side or the other perhaps wants to "win" this argument, but really, does it matter today? Or should SM perhaps try some "test" terrian resets, maybe few large volunteer empires. Get rid of a few hundred thousand terrain creations, see how it goes.
Problems with computer systems can be complex and unpredictable at times. No one knows everything. "Fixing" one thing may break something else. I am pretty sure this is why IT people test things, sometimes for years before implementation.
I think arguing over what was done in the past is a waste of time. Simply being aware that such things may happen should be enough.
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ghostrider
Lieutenant
Reged: 03/26/10
Posts: 522
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Re: Terrain Reset
[Re: TRK]
#162937 - 12/21/11 10:23 AM (70.173.25.223)
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Well I never researched nor built any ammoless towers. So no problems there.
I have about 6 cities in all my empires that would be affected by the terrain reset.
The auto soi effect would have no affect on me except lower my land costs.
I do not have anything in the recycle bins, so no effect there.
When doing the zone reset, it might be a good idea to eliminate the 4+level changes next to each other.
I can see where a few people have the idea that you are not listening to them, because of a lack of the full big picture. There are a few things that will happen even though its the worst thing in the players minds that could. There are a few things that would seem like the worst thing for the owner side. I can tell that a few people do NOT want certain changes, because that means changing the way they play.
Want a fun game without all the hassles. Cities can not be taken, only held during the current war. No more having to rebuild/find new zones. Income from a city goes to the current owner, with the option to loot it. Set the surrender to include only bv, with a full paying surrender if all cities are taken. Empires that dont actually protect cities, have moral problems and possible desertions, such as cities and units. Might even put in riots to avoid the attack only bv empires. Put the empires on a more even level, and the game becomes more fun for all, not just a certain few that have mastered the ability to exploit flaws in the game.
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Gunner
Sergeant Major
Reged: 07/11/04
Posts: 365
Loc: Hurricane Capital of the World
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Re: Terrain Reset
[Re: ghostrider]
#162947 - 12/21/11 02:26 PM (173.65.23.244)
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Actually, that was correct, I recall all the towers in empires getting lined up in the middle of the zone. They allowed us to scrap our towers with no penalty to fix it, and then they filtered out all zones with units or towers or cities for future terrain resets.
However, I propse this instead. Instead of making us provide a list of our zones, just do as Randy did, and filter out zones with defending units placed, such as towers. Clear terrain on all unclaimed zones, and empty ones. No player should have to redo their defenses that they have already painstakingly placed once due to a terrain reset. Personally, I spent an entire weeks vacation earlier this year planning out my defenses and placing many of them. I have notebooks full of terrain info and listing what I want as a priority defense in my cities. There are tons of empty zones out there with terrain created for no reason, they were fought over more then 5 years ago. Clear those, not the ones people put time and effort into.
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It's a bird...It's a plane...Goddamit! It's another NUKE!
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buc
Captain
Reged: 08/12/05
Posts: 710
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Re: Terrain Reset
[Re: Gunner]
#162949 - 12/21/11 02:55 PM (222.153.236.231)
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The number of zones that actually have units in them would be a very small % of the total number of zones with terrain created. It is ABSOLUTELY ridiculous to make players go through EVERY emp they own, to look at EVERY ZONE they want to keep terrain in.
Bloody ridiculous
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TRK
Sergeant Major
Reged: 11/05/02
Posts: 254
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Re: Terrain Reset
[Re: buc]
#162951 - 12/21/11 03:09 PM (173.181.67.112)
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Well, I sent in my list for my main empire. I am not going to send in for the others as they are already ruined by the pop bug and I have written them off. Not sure if anyone else is in the same boat.
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cbtgod
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 1813
Loc: IN A BOX UNDER A HOUSE
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Re: Terrain Reset
[Re: TRK]
#162956 - 12/21/11 08:12 PM (173.168.109.218)
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my empires still bent so as TRK has pointed out whats the diff? l8rs DABOSS
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yes its a toad, if you didnt know that you dont know anything about cbt
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buc
Captain
Reged: 08/12/05
Posts: 710
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Re: Terrain Reset
[Re: cbtgod]
#162984 - 12/22/11 04:49 PM (222.153.236.231)
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I'm not going to send in a list. Partly cause I can't be assed, but also to see if SM is going to be so stupid to do city zones and zones with units. My other option was to send him a list with all the zones.
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Katrar
Major
Reged: 09/15/02
Posts: 1314
Loc: Seattle, WA USA, Terra
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Re: Terrain Reset
[Re: buc]
#163009 - 12/23/11 01:27 AM (76.28.186.150)
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To be honest, I'm probably not going to be poring over zone lists by the 31st either. For a couple reasons. One, its just one too many things that have dropped like bombs over the past week or two. Two, its the holidays, I have better things to do until the new year. Three, I am trusting SM not to nuke zones with defenses and cities. If he does, I know I won't be the only person sorely disappointed. Will it be all my fault? Technically. But really, no, it won't.
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HoC Gaming - Come war with us!
The HoC Archive - Neveron's definitive historical document
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KJI_3x6
Lieutenant
Reged: 09/11/06
Posts: 650
Loc: Minnesota, North Korea
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Re: Terrain Reset
[Re: Katrar]
#163010 - 12/23/11 01:52 AM (75.72.9.83)
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Quote:
To be honest, I'm probably not going to be poring over zone lists by the 31st either. For a couple reasons. One, its just one too many things that have dropped like bombs over the past week or two. Two, its the holidays, I have better things to do until the new year. Three, I am trusting SM not to nuke zones with defenses and cities. If he does, I know I won't be the only person sorely disappointed. Will it be all my fault? Technically. But really, no, it won't.
this.
and my biggest empire is a level 2....i got better things to do.
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My d*** rumble in the jungle; your d*** got touched by your uncle.
My d*** double feature screen; your d*** went straight to dvd.
ME > you
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