cbtgod
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 1813
Loc: IN A BOX UNDER A HOUSE
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: ghostrider]
#165924 - 07/17/12 01:52 AM (173.78.137.15)
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why has it been edited? wtf kind of cornpops are you smoking SM. slaine posted info to make the game an even playing feild and you edited it. and my examples are not using DP multis since you have told 3 of my faction mates they do not work? but im sure you still take to donations for them lmfao. most of these uber sick pilots are 99% in vechs. get off your butt and make 5 test empires and run your own tests since you dont blv anythng anyone tells you anyway. thanx for taking care of my help ticket now 7 months old. lmfao l8rs DABOSS
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yes its a toad, if you didnt know that you dont know anything about cbt
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ShadowMasterCM
Captain
Reged: 12/07/05
Posts: 916
Loc: New York
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: cbtgod]
#165925 - 07/17/12 03:21 AM (24.103.210.226)
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DABOSS:
Regardless of why Slaine posted the possible exploit publicly, it is NOT the correct way to handle it. Allowing everyone to experiment with the exploit only makes a larger mess for me to sort out later.
I never said the DP Enhancers dont work. I have said in a few select conversations [not sure who your 3 faction mates are that I supposedly spoke directly to] that the assumptions made about how they worked may have been incorrect, so the way the new checks programs work are possibly not the way they where intended. I have been very clear that nothing is confirmed about that yet, but it would explain why mechs seem to struggle to obtain better skills since the new programs.
How exactly any player spends their DP is not something that I get directly involved with, so I'm not sure how many players have purchased Enhancers since the new checks programs have been released, but as with anything that impacts the game as a whole, I would make the necessary corrections to fix things.
Where exactly are you getting this statistic that 99% of the pilots are in Vehs? I have the EXACT numbers of where what negative gunners are, and I assure you its not 99% in Vehs.
I have been running 12 separate test empires since the start of training, I do my research and have my facts in place before i start spouting nonsense and gibberish from my mouth. You might want to try that one time.
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rantamplan
Sergeant Major
Reged: 03/26/03
Posts: 341
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: ShadowMasterCM]
#165926 - 07/17/12 08:14 AM (193.144.201.40)
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Quote:
You can not however take an existing empire, which has soldiers from ages ago, mixed in with newly hired soldiers, and soldiers bought with DP that had enhancers to varied degrees and so on. There are just far to many variables in there to make any sound conclusions from the data that would be collected from those empires.
Hey Sm, don't say my experiments are worthless because of this and take them into consideration.
The truth is that expeimrents 1-3 were made ON THE SAME EMPIRE, with EXACTLY SAME MULTIPLERS (but the degradation got in one week only).
Experiments on the big empire are made with BRAND NEW PILOTS i commisiones teh 75 CF towers, with my best gunners, then the vehicles. but the rest of the towers (about 3.5K) are commisioned with completelly fresh pilots.
so no degradation in there.
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rantamplan
Sergeant Major
Reged: 03/26/03
Posts: 341
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: Katrar]
#165927 - 07/17/12 09:08 AM (193.144.201.40)
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On a side note SM.
¿how is that you deleted Slaine "exploit"? I thougth that you said that you were getting same results from not logging than from login every day...
If that was the case then slaine "explot" must not work properly.
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ShadowMasterCM
Captain
Reged: 12/07/05
Posts: 916
Loc: New York
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: rantamplan]
#165929 - 07/17/12 11:48 AM (24.103.210.226)
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rantamplan/ Mantis :
I am NOT simply disregarding all feedback that has been provided.
The trouble is that most feedback that I have received so far has been general gibberish based on rumors and incorrect assumptions about game systems with no factual back up or even information provided with how one came to a specific conclusion.
Some players would even come into chat taunting that they had some inside information about this, and would not simply reveal it for the sake of fixing or improving the game. I do not have time for those sort of games, nor will I deal with that level of immature player(s) any longer.
Your case did attempt to support your claims and that is appreciated.
Slaine as well provided supporting detail with his claims.
Several others have finally come forth with some additional logic trying to explain their thoughts about this.
That does not however change the facts that any of these tests are not in controlled settings, with multiple variables, and so any conclusions drawn from them are likely skewed. Several of the 'conclusions' that have been brought to me are quite simply wrong.
However, the knowledge of the existence of an issue is a great first step to fixing it. Players will discover an issue long before an Admin will in many cases as there are far more players actually interacting with all the various pages of code that create Neveron. The fact the player(s) attempted to better the game is very much recognized and appreciated.
An Admin can however take the issues at hand and then create multiple test empires in controlled settings, with the exact same soldiers, exact same multis, exact same DP Enhancers and so on. Then those empires are used to run a targeted # of training / skill downs / battle checks at each of them to try to pin down an exact issue. This sort of controlled testing is also the only way to create any sort of results data listing the odds of a soldier getting to skill X and so on.
I do appreciate the efforts of the few players that have come forward recently with information. It has been helpful and has offered some new perspective to pursue this uber skill issue.
It has been done so in an intelligent and respectful manner, with out playing any games, and that is all that I ask.
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Edited by ShadowMasterCM (07/17/12 11:49 AM)
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slaine202
Sergeant Major
Reged: 01/24/03
Posts: 271
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: ShadowMasterCM]
#165930 - 07/17/12 03:04 PM (90.195.145.77)
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Can we stop calling it the Slaine Exploit please! :-)
I'm not the cause of the issue nor the only one to figure it out.
In fact it was another thread on here, where it was obvious some already knew of it but werent prepared to share with the rest of us, that pissed me off enough to go and figure it out for myself.
Lets call it the Why You Shouldnt Undertake A Significant IT Project Without Any Project Management Skills / CodeF*** / Randy Ripped Us Off Exploit instead, eh?
Thats a much more accurate description.
Anway, if I'm right about where the bug lies (pity the detail has been deleted, discussion on here wouldve been useful IMHO), then it MAY be one that can be fixed without needing massive coding skills.
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cbtgod
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 1813
Loc: IN A BOX UNDER A HOUSE
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: slaine202]
#165932 - 07/17/12 07:32 PM (173.78.137.15)
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SM your a lair and i wont be called one my self. in a phone conversation with one person. and 2 others in chat you words were dont used dp multis they dont work right. ill see if i can track down the chat logs since you have memory issues. as far as the 99%. thats what ive found in the 4 empires ive been looking at how training has been acting. and get a real isp prov im on a 150/50 isp line and have 99% the time if not almost all the time everyone in my faction gets this internet explorer can not display error. i havnt been able to view a training result report in months. and since uber skills are a major issue and some player are not turds when is this going to be fixed id suggest turning of raids and wars. other wise you are allowing the abuse of this on players that are not themselves doing it. l8rs DABOSS
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yes its a toad, if you didnt know that you dont know anything about cbt
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ShadowMasterCM
Captain
Reged: 12/07/05
Posts: 916
Loc: New York
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: cbtgod]
#165933 - 07/17/12 07:44 PM (24.103.210.226)
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for the record its not the lack of project management skills that are the issue, its the lack of coding skills
DABOSS: not sure what this browser error is that you are getting...or the rest of 'everyone in your faction'...but this is the first I've heard of it. Why hasnt someone sent a ticket about this yet?
Training Results page can take up to 30+ seconds to display in larger empires with larger numbers of soldiers and units. Soldiers includes all assigned to units, unassigned, and the stored soldiers. So if you have 40k in soldiers, its gonna take a while to process your checks as well as your results page. So I guess you need to be patient and keep trying...or start trimming down all the excess in your empire that you can afford to.
I have said it before and clearly I need to say it again, larger empires = poor performance.
There is no magic button to turn off any part of Neveron, let alone something as complex as DoWs / Raids.
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Cray
General
Reged: 07/27/01
Posts: 4131
Loc: North America
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: cbtgod]
#165934 - 07/17/12 07:49 PM (173.168.112.109)
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Hey, throttle it down a bit folks. Most of you are on the edge of bans, so any warnings are going to interrupt your venting mid-argument for a week to a month, if not longer.
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Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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KJI_3x6
Lieutenant
Reged: 09/11/06
Posts: 650
Loc: Minnesota, North Korea
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: Cray]
#165935 - 07/17/12 08:30 PM (50.137.208.91)
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mike miller once banned me for like 2 weeks, now i am going to log into my empires, which i have not logged into for over a month, to see what has happened.
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My d*** rumble in the jungle; your d*** got touched by your uncle.
My d*** double feature screen; your d*** went straight to dvd.
ME > you
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KJI_3x6
Lieutenant
Reged: 09/11/06
Posts: 650
Loc: Minnesota, North Korea
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: KJI_3x6]
#165936 - 07/17/12 08:55 PM (50.137.208.91)
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and the results are in, i have a neg 1 gun jeep mg II
i am elite.
after 508 skill checks i am elite.
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My d*** rumble in the jungle; your d*** got touched by your uncle.
My d*** double feature screen; your d*** went straight to dvd.
ME > you
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buc
Captain
Reged: 08/12/05
Posts: 710
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: KJI_3x6]
#165937 - 07/17/12 09:50 PM (210.86.1.168)
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If anyone wants to know what I know of the 'Slaine Exploit', PM me in IRC 
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ShadowMasterCM
Captain
Reged: 12/07/05
Posts: 916
Loc: New York
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: buc]
#165938 - 07/17/12 10:59 PM (24.103.210.226)
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and by spreading that information you are in fact exploiting it
tread very carefully in what information you ask for and or spread, as there could be consequences against your empires for doing so
--------------------
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Neveron Promo Code: online gaming rocks
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ghostrider
Lieutenant
Reged: 03/26/10
Posts: 522
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: ShadowMasterCM]
#165939 - 07/17/12 11:30 PM (70.173.10.66)
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Kinda interesting, since training was not supposed to produce skills under 2. Now that alone says the program has a flaw with it.
Combat is supposed to be the only way below 2.
So there might be a good place to start.
And I agree with Slaine. He brought it to the attention of all that read this thread that someone ELSE had an army of units with uber skills. He has warned us that they do exist and sometimes in large numbers. He did not create/find the problem before others did and use it. Naming it after him is wrong.
As for mechs not running into the uber negs like vehicles are, well thats cuz training mechs are expensive to keep, so having large numbers to weed out the cruddy solders isnt as feasible as vehicles are. A few people have got some soldiers that are uber negged.
Now on a side note, why is this problem worse then someone performing log in sabotague? Once the problem is solved, resetting skills should be relatively easy. Have you started anything to discourage the use of the problem, such as locking out access to empires with hordes of uber negged units? Or are you waiting until AFTER they destroy peoples empires?
This is gonna sounds like a nasty post, but it wasnt meant as such. It is supposed to be a simple set of questions that could be worded better, but not by my feable mind at this time.
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Katrar
Major
Reged: 09/15/02
Posts: 1314
Loc: Seattle, WA USA, Terra
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: ghostrider]
#165940 - 07/18/12 02:10 AM (24.17.137.174)
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The problem with this is that there is no functional difference AT ALL between the casual or once in a blue moon player who only logs in once every other week or two to check nevmail and research, a profile I fit more often than not the past six years, and the player who only logs in once in a while in order to train his army.
And really there is no harm in saying that now, everyone now knows.
The REALITY is that this predicament has achieved SNAFU status. Ultra dudes are situation normal. The question is what to do about it. And clearly something needs to be done about it, as the clock is ticking.
Remember in 2006 when Randy turned on forced faction war and it started killing people's empires? Remember people leaving? This has the smell of that. It needs to be addressed ASAP, because the only ways to confront this... sanctioning players and empires that achieve skills that are 'too good' or use those skills to war... is IMO completely untenable when you get these skills without literally doing anything, and when you now know your neighbors are stockpiling these soldiers because, well, they have to.
In my opinion this is an emergency, and as an emergency it needs to be dealt with head on. That means identify the problem, identify the solution, and implement it. Soon. It also provides an opportunity to address the fact that the system that underpins this problem, training, the way units gain and lose skill, etc, is fundamentally flawed and has been since 2001. If there was ever a better time to identify a replacement that is more in tune with traditional CBT, and find a way to implement it into Nev as seamlessly as possible, I don't know when it was, or will be again.
One thing is certain... if this goes on for a year, or longer, and -50 snipers and -20 dp mechs become more prevalent than they are now, this game as anything anyone will want to play, for any legitimate reason, can be kissed goodbye.
Now listen.
Hear that?
It's an ambulance siren.
But is it coming here?
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HoC Gaming - Come war with us!
The HoC Archive - Neveron's definitive historical document
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rantamplan
Sergeant Major
Reged: 03/26/03
Posts: 341
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: Katrar]
#165941 - 07/18/12 02:33 AM (193.144.201.40)
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I agree with katrar this MUST be addressed as soon as possible.
You cant just say "dont use this or you are going to be deleted" because really soon you basically are going to have 2 options:
A) you use the exploit to have a ubber -20 gunnery mech batallion.
b) You face the risk of being attacked by someone who has and be defenceless against that.
So... ¿whats the higher risk? ¿you being attacked and wipped out by someone who exploited the bug? ¿or exploiting the bug and being catched by admins?
Disclaimer: this is not an apology for ussing the exploit, it is just noticing that current situation leaves you very few options.
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Gunner
Sergeant Major
Reged: 07/11/04
Posts: 365
Loc: Hurricane Capital of the World
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: rantamplan]
#165942 - 07/18/12 04:11 AM (71.180.217.165)
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I'm sorry, but not logging into this broke dick game for a month because you're sick of it not working, and sick of the fact that the money you donated having been used to code this abortion of our training system instead of what we asked for, is in fact, not abuse, and not an exploit. How in the world, could not logging in at all, be an exploit? Perhaps you should have asked Randy for a warranty?
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It's a bird...It's a plane...Goddamit! It's another NUKE!
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cbtgod
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 1813
Loc: IN A BOX UNDER A HOUSE
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: Gunner]
#165944 - 07/18/12 06:37 AM (173.78.137.15)
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ok SM the empire i tried to view the skill report had a big wow 12 units uhhhhhh huh. and i was able to view all my empire reports in the past ive talked to almost 15 diff people all the same thing they have to refreash every dam tab due to laggggg its not my computer its not my settings.as far as sending a help ticket why bother you dont answer them anyway? and once i get the conversation sent to me from irc about the dp multis not working ill be glad to post it here. as far as my units having massive dp mutlis on them i dont. in fact some of these uber units have not been in a war just training. most are in low lvl cannon fodder vechs. people have bent over to help you in the past and im sorry you wont get that help from alot of us anymore. in the end we have learned you word dsnt carry weight. l8rs DABOSS
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yes its a toad, if you didnt know that you dont know anything about cbt
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Aunduril
Sergeant Major
Reged: 01/21/05
Posts: 386
Loc: In my Whammy
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: cbtgod]
#165945 - 07/18/12 07:49 AM (98.18.127.58)
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I have to say, after returning to the game from a few year hiatus (not that I was a serious player before)
the idea of facing off against people with uber gunners does not make we want to continue playing.
I am well aware that the game is buggy as heck, but I still enjoy it even if it often annoys me.
But the idea of units that can never miss is...well... Why would I bother playing a game that had no strategy to it besides "press button. Blow up enemy."
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"What we do in life echos into eternity. " - Maximus - The Gladiator.
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rantamplan
Sergeant Major
Reged: 03/26/03
Posts: 341
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: Gunner]
#165946 - 07/18/12 08:09 AM (193.144.201.40)
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Quote:
I'm sorry, but not logging into this broke dick game for a month because you're sick of it not working, and sick of the fact that the money you donated having been used to code this abortion of our training system instead of what we asked for, is in fact, not abuse, and not an exploit. How in the world, could not logging in at all, be an exploit? Perhaps you should have asked Randy for a warranty?
This is a very very good question.
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KJI_3x6
Lieutenant
Reged: 09/11/06
Posts: 650
Loc: Minnesota, North Korea
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: ShadowMasterCM]
#165947 - 07/18/12 02:47 PM (50.137.208.91)
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Quote:
and by spreading that information you are in fact exploiting it
tread very carefully in what information you ask for and or spread, as there could be consequences against your empires for doing so
yea, because all 17 people playing these days really care what kind of threats you are going to make to them. how does that investment look now sm? i stood tall and proud and supported you, maybe it was verbally because i have no money to donate, but i told people to just give you time and that you were not randy or wws and would listen to the people playing this game, instead we get codefisted, ignored, and threatened, that is a great buisiness model.
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My d*** rumble in the jungle; your d*** got touched by your uncle.
My d*** double feature screen; your d*** went straight to dvd.
ME > you
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buc
Captain
Reged: 08/12/05
Posts: 710
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: KJI_3x6]
#165948 - 07/19/12 02:13 AM (222.155.175.148)
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Can I just say, I know of no actual bug abuse or exploit for the 'slaine exploit'. And yes, I like the name
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Katrar
Major
Reged: 09/15/02
Posts: 1314
Loc: Seattle, WA USA, Terra
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: buc]
#165949 - 07/19/12 09:57 AM (24.17.137.174)
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I've heard that the "slaine exploit" is to get a full night's sleep without logging into Neveron. If this is true he needs to be deleted and ip banned immediately. This is exploitative and bad for the game.
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HoC Gaming - Come war with us!
The HoC Archive - Neveron's definitive historical document
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Rallis
Private
Reged: 03/14/12
Posts: 34
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: Katrar]
#165950 - 07/19/12 11:57 AM (99.26.68.88)
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this roller coaster named neveron has spiraled out of control even beyond the point of repair, sm has screwed up the game more than i ever thought possible... its even worse now then with randy or without an active owner
congratulations for destroying a game that could have potentially had world wide success reaching 10000+ players if put in the right hands at the right time
it makes me depressed when i think about it
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ghostrider
Lieutenant
Reged: 03/26/10
Posts: 522
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: Rallis]
#165951 - 07/19/12 11:29 PM (70.173.10.66)
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So if you arent logged in 24 hours a day, you can get banned and have your empires deleted? Wow. Guess that is a good reason to run the empire deletion program to get rid of those that havent had someone access in 2 or more months. Not only free up some server space, but get rid of the new wave of exploiters. Or would that be old wave?
Seriously. Cap the damn skills at 2 like training is supposed to do. It isnt like you are taking away hard earned checks from war.
Thats right. Randy is on vacation until mid august if i recall. Cannt even ask him where the location is for that info in the code. Hmmm. triple range ppc towers that never miss if the target is in range. Now that is a scary thought. Too bad i dont have any.
Now the nightmare. Triple range ac 20 towers like this.
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buc
Captain
Reged: 08/12/05
Posts: 710
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: ghostrider]
#165952 - 07/20/12 01:36 AM (222.155.175.148)
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The current training was never supposed to have a cap ghostrider. SM stated this many many times. The OLD (read, version prior to this) did have a cap at 2, but this one never has, and was designed not to.
It isn't a bug that you can get below 2, but is a problem you can get so low.
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Katrar
Major
Reged: 09/15/02
Posts: 1314
Loc: Seattle, WA USA, Terra
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: buc]
#165953 - 07/20/12 03:03 AM (24.17.137.174)
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It seems almost certain that the only reason these neg gunners are possible is because of the flaw in the coding, not necessarily that negative gun is possible. KJI's example is probably what would happen if the code wasn't bad... nearly 2 months of skill checks all at once got him exact 1 negative gun... and that was a -1 at that. That unit was almost certainly a decent gun prior to the checks. If there's the occasional negative gun here and there via training (-1 ish) it's not necessarily a broken system, not when everything else is still trending up to 5-6 gun even at maximum training. I do think, though, that the WHOLE THING is broken, and is based on a flawed concept of unit skills and training that was probably thought up in 2 hours in 2001 and has dictated life on Neveron ever since. The skill/training relationship on Nev is busted, and in ways far beyond a glitch in code, its fundamentally a dumb system.
--------------------
HoC Gaming - Come war with us!
The HoC Archive - Neveron's definitive historical document
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cbtgod
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 1813
Loc: IN A BOX UNDER A HOUSE
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: Katrar]
#165954 - 07/20/12 04:55 AM (173.78.137.15)
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i find it funny SM hasnt gotten a lawyer yet and sued the 72 iq randy. he was paid to do a job and didnt do it right. any one anywhere else in the world that did this type of crappy coding would already have gotten the letter of demand from some scum bag lawyer. katrar ive been told from other in my faction max training is 100% a joke. i have an empire on max hasnt had a skill down in 2 months go figure. l8rs DABOSS
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yes its a toad, if you didnt know that you dont know anything about cbt
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ShadowMasterCM
Captain
Reged: 12/07/05
Posts: 916
Loc: New York
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: Katrar]
#165955 - 07/20/12 05:10 AM (24.103.210.226)
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To Clarify: The 'exploit' that I consider punishable is when a player(s) learns of the possible loophole in the code, then makes effort to 'educate' everyone else on the loophole.
Then the next exploit is the player(s) that take that information and use it in such a manner as to deliberately use the loophole for gain in any empire(s).
Those are the only people that I would consider sanction against.
Players that happened upon a loophole, and never go about trying to exploit it will never have an issue dealing with Administrative Actions.
The loophole itself is not yet verified, and if it is in fact verified, then a plan of action will be devised to address it, even if only a temporary fix until a longer term solution can be found.
Katar: You have mentioned you think this training system [new and old] is flawed. Please explain how abd why you feel as such. Even more useful would be seeing a seperate post on the matter, as well as discussing new ideas about how to improve the system. You also mention how Neveron is not like the CBT system, again please clarify this statement.
On a side note, somewhere a comment was made that I didnt care about learning CBT. That is not true. I do want to learn more about CBT as a whole and I want to get Neveron more in line with CBT where possible.
However I am already trying to learn 7 other coding languages and how they all tie together to make what we know as Neveron. I am also trying to learn all the various bits of hardware technology currently used to run Neveron.
So my thought process [and presumably where the misunderstanding was taken from] is that when I have a CBT related question, I'd rather go to the CBT 'geeks' that play the game and get the 'facts' from them. It makes no sense for me to try to learn the in's and out's of CBT that some 20 year veterans can rattle off in their sleep.
--------------------
Is it true? Do you really suck that bad??
Neveron Promo Code: online gaming rocks
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Katrar
Major
Reged: 09/15/02
Posts: 1314
Loc: Seattle, WA USA, Terra
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: ShadowMasterCM]
#165956 - 07/20/12 05:25 PM (24.17.137.174)
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Ok, regarding the skills/training system on Neveron...
Default Skill Levels
Every unit starts its lifecycle on Neveron with a driver/piloting and gunnery of 8. In CBT the lowest inner sphere skill level for mechs is 6/5, which represents the lowest level of experience (Green), unless otherwise specified in the notes of a particular scenario. Most troops are 5/4, regardless whether they are in mechs or vehicles.
These green skills represent troops that have learned the basics of their profession.
It goes from there:
6/5 Green (straight out of boot camp)
5/4 Regular (not necessarily combat experience, just enough time to learn some tips and get to know your place)
4/3 Veteran (combat tested, experienced)
3/2 Elite (highly experienced)
...
0/0 The best possible skills according to CBT
By eliminating gunnery 6, 7 and 8 from normal game use you ensure that every unit can contribute to some degree. By establishing 3/2 as "normal best" you ensure that "good" units have a distinct advantage on the field of battle, but not to a degree that it makes lesser units irrelevant. Theoretical bests of 0/0 provide a functional skill floor. Note that in CBT even some of the most high profile, best of the best mech pilots have gunneries of 3 on paper.
The point here is that Neveron's skill system, ranging as it does from 8 gun down to extended negative guns, harms the balance that has been so carefully built into CBT combat. This shouldn't be news to anyone with even the most basic of background in CBT. Every unit taken into combat should be of some value, even if that value is fairly well eclipsed by other units. In Neveron much of what is taken into combat is worthless and valueless except in the BV toll it takes upon the fielding empire.
Improving Skills
In CBT pilots that survive a battle get 1 XP point. Accumulate enough XP points and you can improve your gunnery/piloting (its 4 XP to improve piloting, 8 to improve gunnery I believe). This is built upon a table top experience where surviving 8 combats might take a while, and only gets you from 5 gun to 4 gun, or 4 gun to 3 gun.
A direct application of this system would be a problem in a game where you can be in several battles in one day. But the system itself spreads lowered skill out, and it should be possible to imagine a skill system that utilizes XP gains, and apportions XP in an intelligent, understandable and fair manner.
In CBT there is no such thing as an untrainable pilot. Every person in a mech or vehicle has the same theoretical ability to train, it's a matter of how often that person gets used and whether they survive long enough to learn from their experiences.
The concept of an untrainable pilot in Neveron has resulted in lots of defenses being stuck forever at 6, 7 even 8 gun. "Realism" could be used in its defense but really, no. Realism of that sort is pointless next to the lack of realism about everything else. All that untrainable pilots do is hobble empire's ability to defend and grow.
So by narrowing the band of possible skills, from 5 or 6 to 0, and rethinking how and why units skill down, it should become possible to establish a system that does not require "training checks" at all, allows every unit in an empire a shot to hit what it is aiming at from the very moment of creation, and still rewards LW active empires by placing them ahead of the curve for skill advancement.
Good Skills Should Not Be Game Over
CBT gunnery is intended to provide nuance. The difference between a 5/4 mech and a 3/2 mech is substantial but with a little luck that 5/4 mech can still win. And yet, in the lore that 3/2 pilot will be portrayed as a virtual 'mech god, and the 5/4 is an average, faceless grunt. In Neveron an empire commissions a mech and it is 8/8. It could be engaged by a raider with -3 gun (or nowadays -30 gun). So in Neveron skills are not nuanced at all. The CBT equivalent to this 8/8 ver 0/-3 battle would be a 6/5 or 5/4 vs 3/2 battle. Still lopsided but anyone should be able to see the point.
About Terrain
It has been said in the past that Neveron has needed negative guns in order to balance the horrid terrain. This is true, to a degree, but this is also a reaction to ANOTHER major issue on Neveron. Two wrongs do not make a right, not in the real world and not on Neveron. Also, terrain was more or less fixed a couple years back. The "terrain requires negative gunners" was far more relevant in 2001-2003/4 than today.
Rebalancing skills to make every unit functional while providing nuance to skill progression, and combining that with terrain that accomodates rather than deters combat would go far to helping this game.
The Point
CBT is built around competing mechs. Neveron is built around competing pilots. One works, one doesn't. One has had decades and thousands of hours of professional playtesting, one hasn't.
Which do you think is which?
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