Munchkinville

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KamikazeJohnson
01/07/02 07:16 PM
209.202.47.12

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This post was inspired by the long, raging debate on the "designs" board about whether or not the 'Mech in question is "Munchy". In light of that debate, I decided to start this thread, dedicated to Munchkinism and What It Means To Me

In general, when someone says "Munchkin", I think of a new or immature player who feels that he is or ought to be invincible, and values his own brand of fun over the spirit of the game and the general enjoyment of the other players. A Munchkin lives by the philosophy, "If I can't win, I'm not going to play."

So a "Munchy" 'Mech, in my IMHO, is one which:
1) is invincible under the given circumstances
2) is designed by a Munchkin to have Munchkin-style fun
3) is a natural choice of Munchkins, since it embodies their philosophy and style of play.

Now it's fun time hehehe...the List:

A Munchkin:

--pilots an invincible 'Mech
--has Piloting -5 and Gunnery -7, so he never falls and never misses
--plays only if he can win, or, if he starts to lose, makes sure no one else has any fun either
--stalls the game for hours arguing that, since his 'Mech is in the water, it should be able to SWIM at least as fast as it runs

If anyone has any additions to The List, Munchkin anecdotes, or a completely different idea of Munchkinism, I'd love to read it!
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
Karagin
01/07/02 07:22 PM
63.173.170.31

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Okay here are some:

Someone who exploits the loopholes to get the most out a mech, even though the other players are not using similar mechs.

Someone who uses tech that is unbalancing to the game, example would be the EMP warhead, nice, but not really balanced.

Someone who uses repeative weapons over and over on a design, like four plus Gauss Rifles etc...just to get maximum firepower.

Someone who takes TC+Pulse all the time, and use it to target the Center torso of ever mech they run into.

Someone who has the ultimate LAM with every advanced weapon they cram on the thing and still have it work.

Folks who cheat knowningly....yet are very sure no one is going to catch them.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Nightmare
01/07/02 08:14 PM
194.251.240.107

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People who use the BV system to design mechs with low
BV but high effectiveness in the game. This assumes the
two sides will be using BV to balance the game, obviously.

People who wish to pick only certain Level 3 rules from the
MaxTech book, specifically those who benefit their forces.
For example trying to get the expanded movement modifiers
chart when fielding 10/15 moving light mechs. While the enemy only has a few 5/8 mediums...

Designing special-purpose Clan mechs just because they`d
be cool, and then using them too. How would you like a 35t
Clanner with 8/12 move, TC and EI, and a full arsenal of ER Small Lasers? It`s intended use is for running up behind enemy mechs and targetting some rear torso location.

Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
KamikazeJohnson
01/07/02 08:27 PM
209.202.47.12

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>>a 35t Clanner with 8/12 move, TC and EI, and a full arsenal of ER Small Lasers? It`s intended use is for running up behind enemy mechs and targetting some rear torso location. <<

lol that seems to be a favourite anti-Munchkin idea...I mentioned it on the "Designs" board, Karagin mentioned the tactic, you mentioned it...I did a test to see just how bad the situation can get...a 50 ton Clan mech can move 7/11, and carry 16 ER Small Lasers with a TC. At the same time, it has Armor Factor 163, just in case it has to face some return fire. Nasty! I didn't test what a 35 could carry...

BTW...I named the 50-tonner the MCK-1A MUNCHKIN :-)

Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
Black_Phoenix
01/07/02 08:59 PM
207.252.105.156

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*In high-pitched voice* "We represent the Battletech Guild, the Battletech Guild, the Battletech Guild. We represent the Battletech Guild. We wish to weclome you to Munchkinville."

Proof that Wizard of Oz-itis is very contagous. (Or that I've seen the movie one too many times) (Mmmmmm, poppy fields) Did you know that in the orginal "WoO" book they actually had "opium field?" It's true.

Please ignore me. For your own safety. I fear that any replies to this post will degrade the shaky foundation of my mental stability. :D
History is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever.
-Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz

NathanKell
01/07/02 09:27 PM
24.44.238.62

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LOL, I keep saying this, but...

To me this is two separate questions:
1. Attempting to win (including using exploits)
2. Attempting to, when losing, spoil the experience (vs. the legitimate "take them with me" attitude, which, though attempting to spoil the battle does not spoil the experience.

I have much less trouble with the former than the latter.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson
NathanKell
01/07/02 09:45 PM
24.44.238.62

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RE KJ's list:
1. That depends on how strict a definition of "invincible" you use. If it's quite literally invincible no matter the force in opposition (due to an exploit, probably) then yes, this is pure munch. If it's due to good design, and is thus invincible in reasonable matches (i.e., balanced forces, etc.) then it's not in the munch category IMO.
2. Check!
3. I have a bit of trouble with this (partly due to the fact that, in the absence of anything to the contrary I assume what you mean as style of play is what Karagin has been harping on, constant alpha-striking (or near-alpha, like the Annie we were talking about)). In some situations this is indeed the most sound tactic--sometimes all the fancy footwork and field work in the world won't save you from a pitched battle--usually with players of equal skill and opposing forces of equal size. In that case you do indeed need an Awesome-like machine. Now, something like the below-mentioned TC-ERSL-8/12 machine has an even tinier niche (hello long-range fire!) and is thus closer to munchkin nirvana. But it's also definitely not invincible, and thus farther away. So, it seems to me that, unless the mech in question blatanly exploits loopholes it's not munchy, just effective (though perhaps not effective in too many scenarios).
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson
NathanKell
01/07/02 09:58 PM
24.44.238.62

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RE Karagin's list:
1. Even if the other players are (then, of course, they're *all* munchkins, or at least really bored)
2. Tech, of course, can be balanced by other factors. It's munchy to use something unbalancing and refuse to have some other area unbalanced in return.
3. This I take issue with. First of all, if the goal is maximum firepower, you've got to sacrifice other areas (and thus you suffer, and things are rebalanced). Second, if that's the goal, using only one type of weapon is usually not the way to go (IE 2x PPC and 7x ML beats 3x PPC and less armor and speed or whatever).
<snip, see below>
Last one: CHECK!
As to the middle ones--as long as things are balanced, it's not munchy. The hallmark of a munchkin, in my opinion, is a refusal to balance advantages with disadvantages (where ever the two are). You seem overly focused on mech design; it is only munchy, IMO, to refuse to balance an effective mech by an unskilled pilot or unfavorable victory conditions, not the simple act of using an effective mech. That's qualified, however, by whether the effectiveness is due to sound design or loopholes; if the latter, then yes, that's munchy.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson
KamikazeJohnson
01/07/02 10:16 PM
209.202.47.12

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You're right, there are two seperate points here, but IMHO, both are symptoms of Munchkinism, as both (frequently) indicate a new and/or immature player (like the GM who sets up an impossible scenario and then gloats when the players can't beat it)

I don't object to a player using loopholes in the rules, as long as the "surprise" result is reasonable and realistic, but if the loophole leads to very unrealistic results, it becomes kind of a "gentleman's agreement" not to use it, and thereby stick to the spirit of the game.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
KamikazeJohnson
01/07/02 10:34 PM
209.202.47.12

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1) True, an invincible (superior design) 'Mech in itself isn't munchy, but ,IMO, it's a true Munchkin tactic to CHOOSE the 'Mech which is obviously superior under the given circumstances, as this makes the outcome a foregone conclusion, which defeats the purpose of the game.

3) I consider the TC-ERSL 'Mech/tactic munchy not so much because it's unstoppable as because it's so incredibly annoying. Kind of like facing 4 lances of SRM Carriers. And don't forget that a true Munchkin, after blowing out your back armor for the fourth battle in a row, would undoubtedly talk your ear off about his "superior skill" etc. As has been said before, it's not so much the 'Mech as the user
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
Karagin
01/07/02 11:49 PM
63.173.170.202

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Glad to know you don't like all my ideas on this, but then again since the topic is NOT set in stone as to what makes someone or something a munchkin or munchkin design, I will stick with my take on it.

Hope that is ok with you, since I wouldn't want to upset some by not listening to them and following their ideas as 100% all powerful and great ideas.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Korbel
01/08/02 06:22 AM
206.152.237.32

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wow flashback... I played with a kid that had 6 ER PPC's and happened to forget to record his heat... then it turned out he had D Heat sinks written into ever free crit space.. but when we went over tonnage by tonnage on his mech he didn't allocate tonnage for any extra heat sinks... oh yeah it was a 1/2 100 tonner with flip arms with hardened armor and a TC also no tonnage allocated... since then we designed & printed off his sheets just before the games at my house...


how about the 25-35 ton LAM with Narc & TAG I think jump was 25 in air-mech mode. Combined with 3 mechs carring 2 Arrow 4's each and 4 mechs with 4 LRM-20's with extra tons of Thunder munitions. oh yeah with LVL 3 movement mods. Would you consider that Munchy? I am almost ashamed to admit I was the munchkin on that one
Karagin
01/08/02 07:10 AM
63.173.170.208

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Point is we have all made munchkin mechs at one time or anyother, and even when using them we have all be raked over the coals by our friends for doing so.

The idea is we KNOW they are munchy and are willing to admit it...it's the folks who can't or won't admit that their pet mech is a munchy design and leave it at that...

As for the cheating by mistake or what not, I once played against a guy who, took a custom SPIDER and made some mods...since the game was running with a 400 ton limit, I didn't really check to see what his mechs actually had on them, going more for the battle will tell me idea...

The battle went well for the most part, out the 5 mechs I was using I had only lost a two of them and had hurt a couple of his really good. Things is this SPIDER mech was not being phased by hits even though it had taken 3 Gauss hits and several LRM and LL hits...the battle ended with him retreating off board and going home. That is when I got to really look at the mech...after sitting down with a calaculator and some paper, I found out I was fighting a 180 ton mech.

When I pointed it out to the person later on, he didn't take it too well, and that is when I found he was know for fudging the rules or as one of the guys who played Car Wars with him a couple of times said, he cheats, but acts like it's your fault for letting.

This person ranks up there with the folks who fudge armor damage, you know not marking all of the damage, shaving off a point or two or double marking the same spot twice. Or those that know they don't have two tons of ammo, but key firing the gun anyway...

The same ones who, fire a weapon that was destoryed three turns back, hoping that no one notices, since the chaos of the game may make them forget what was taken out...

The list of munchkin cheaters goes on and on and on....
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Bob_Richter
01/09/02 01:25 AM
4.35.174.250

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>>>four plus Gauss Rifles<<<

That's what we call "character!"

Any 'Mech with that many Gauss Rifles is seriously hurting in the combat department.

-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter

Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
Nightmare
01/09/02 04:58 AM
194.251.240.107

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(snip)As for the cheating by mistake or what not (snip)

There was a mech in the Solaris VII boxed set named the
Juggernaut, a custom-built arena mech. Well, my MechWarrior
character once fought it in the Factory arena, using his somewhat customized Marauder against it. After the battle,
which I lost, I discovered the opponent/GM had counted the
Juggernaut`s DHS twice! 12(24) had become 24(48) so it had
no real heat troubles in the arena fighting - compared to a Marauder, that is. Refighting the match still resulted in defeat
for me, though. That Buggernaut had 16 machine guns just
for use with the arena fighting system. Munchkin? Hell yes!
Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
Karagin
01/09/02 10:24 AM
63.173.170.29

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Oh brother...character...okay...right I see, sure ok.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
01/09/02 10:25 AM
63.173.170.29

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Most of the mech in the Solairs areans are munchy...though some do make good scouts once you tweak them a bit and get rid of the munch....
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
01/09/02 10:49 AM
63.173.170.29

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You play your way and the rest of us will play ours...
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
01/09/02 10:51 AM
63.173.170.29

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I have said what I mean, I have explained it and YOU won't listen. So how you grow up and learn to understand what is put in front of you. The mech is mucnhy, if you need more explanation see all the posting about it. Otherwise shut. up.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Nightmare
01/09/02 11:04 AM
194.251.240.107

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Well, the Marauder was all my MechWarrior character happened to own...

Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
Karagin
01/09/02 11:06 AM
63.173.170.29

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Since you broke the rules back a few posting, your point out my breaking them is childish and you know it.

And yes it (the mech) is munchy IMVHO.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
01/09/02 11:50 AM
63.173.170.230

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If you say so on the first part...and you should keep the second part in mind yourself.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
NathanKell
01/09/02 01:34 PM
24.44.238.62

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In reply to:

Glad to know you don't like all my ideas on this, but then again since the topic is NOT set in stone as to what makes someone or something a munchkin or munchkin design, I will stick with my take on it.

Hope that is ok with you, since I wouldn't want to upset some by not listening to them and following their ideas as 100% all powerful and great ideas.



This is indeed fine with me.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson
NathanKell
01/09/02 01:36 PM
24.44.238.62

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In reply to:

Oh brother...character...okay...right I see, sure ok.



And this is somehow easier to say than "I disagree" ?
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson
NathanKell
01/09/02 01:38 PM
24.44.238.62

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Indeed.
Actually, I guess you could simply define a munchkin as someone who "intentionally spoils the experience" no matter in which way the spoilage occurs.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson
NathanKell
01/09/02 01:39 PM
24.44.238.62

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Indeed. And, if the players are in general a good bunch this certainly does not "spoil the experience" and may in fact increase the fun, even for the (losing) winners: "Wow, he sure put up a hard fight, but I/we took him!"
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson
NathanKell
01/09/02 01:40 PM
24.44.238.62

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In reply to:

You play your way and the rest of us will play ours...



Which is indeed the best place to leave the discussion.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson
Korbel
01/09/02 03:18 PM
206.152.237.32

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for the women of course... hehe
Nightmare
01/09/02 11:59 PM
194.251.240.107

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Eh...not in the company he was moving around with.
The other PCs were the kind that House Kurita
didn`t even want assigned to the Legions of Vega.
Guys who only wanted to blow stuff up and have fun
while doing so.
Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
Acolyte
01/10/02 02:36 AM
142.179.31.172

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Ah. I beleive they would be hired as "deniable assets". Used for jobs that the government wanted done but didn't want to be associated with. Maybe also "expendable front line troops".

Light a fire for a man, and you keep him warm for one night,
Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Acolyte
Bob_Richter
01/10/02 08:30 AM
4.35.174.250

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IT HAS NO ARMOR....either that or it can't run worth crap.

Let me demonstrate.

BattleMech Technical Readout

Type/Model: Untitled 'Mech
Tech: Inner Sphere / 3025
Config: Biped BattleMech
Rules: Level 2, Standard design

Mass: 90 tons
Chassis: Standard
Power Plant: 270 GM XL Fusion
Walking Speed: 32.4 km/h
Maximum Speed: 54.0 km/h
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor Type: Standard
Armament:
4 Gauss Rifles
Manufacturer: (Unknown)
Location: (Unknown)
Communications System: (Unknown)
Targeting & Tracking System: (Unknown)

--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model: Untitled 'Mech
Mass: 90 tons

Equipment: Crits Mass
Int. Struct.: 138 pts Standard 0 9.00
Engine: 270 XL 12 7.50
Walking MP: 3
Running MP: 5
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: 10 Double [20] 0 .00
Gyro: 4 3.00
Cockpit, Life Supt., Sensors: 5 3.00
Actuators: L: Sh+UA+LA+H R: Sh+UA+LA+H 16 .00
Armor Factor: 56 pts Standard 0 3.50

Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head: 3 9
Center Torso: 29 7
Center Torso (Rear): 2
L/R Side Torso: 19 5/5
L/R Side Torso (Rear): 2/2
L/R Arm: 15 5/5
L/R Leg: 19 7/7

Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Crits Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 Gauss Rifle RA 1 32 11 19.00
(Ammo Locations: 1 LA, 1 RA, 1 LT, 1 RT)
1 Gauss Rifle LA 1 7 15.00
1 Gauss Rifle RT 1 7 15.00
1 Gauss Rifle LT 1 7 15.00
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: 4 69 90.00
Crits & Tons Left: 9 .00

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 18,060,260 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,703
Cost per BV: 10,604.97
Weapon Value: 1,280 / 1,280 (Ratio = .75 / .75)
Damage Factors: SRDmg = 44; MRDmg = 43; LRDmg = 28
BattleForce2: MP: 3, Armor/Structure: 1/3
Damage PB/M/L: 5/5/5, Overheat: 0
Class: MA; Point Value: 17

Normally, I would consider 3/5 movement MINIMUM, even for a max-weight assault 'Mech.

There's NO WAY you can fit four Gauss Rifles (Inner Sphere) on an effective Battlemech.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter

Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
Bob_Richter
01/10/02 08:33 AM
4.35.174.250

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Munchkinism is, in general, behaving like an immature n00b.

This can include
1) Whining
2) Designing 'Mechs based around the obvious strategies created by the imbalaces in FASA's creation and combat system and then talking like they're the greatest, most original concept ever.
3) Designing 'Mechs and playing battles with no concern for the general roleplaying elements of the game or the vast, deep Universe in which it is set.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter

Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
KamikazeJohnson
01/10/02 10:32 AM
209.202.47.12

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>>There's NO WAY you can fit four Gauss Rifles (Inner Sphere) on an effective Battlemech.<<

But since when do Munchkins design or pilot IS 'Mechs? Wouldn't they use Mixed Tech so they can have Clan LRMs with C3?
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
Nightmare
01/10/02 11:04 AM
194.251.240.107

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But of course you can fit some more Gauss rifles on a IS
mech chassis. I remember there was a really horrible Assault
Mech built by the Word of Bob, presented on RGM.

This was posted by someone calling himself Ives100 at
15/05/2001. Enjoy!

Just when you thought it was safe...

LCK-1-BOB Lucky Bob
Tonnage: 100
Tech Base: Level 3 Inner Sphere Custom

Equipment Mass
Internal Structure 10.0
Engine: 100 compact 4.5
Walking MP: 1
Running MP: 2
Sprinting MP: 3
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: 10 single 0.0
Gyro (compact): 1.5
Cockpit: 3.0
Armor Factor: 64 4.0

Internals Armor
Head 3 5
C. Torso 31 10
C. Torso(R) 5
L/R Torso 21 7
L/R Torso(R) 5
L/R Arms 17 5
L/R Legs 21 5

Weapons and Ammo Location Critical Tonnage
L.R. Targeting System H 0 0
Gauss Rifle CT 7 15
Gauss Rifle RT 7 15
Gauss Rifle LT 7
15
Gauss Rifle LA 7 15
Gauss Rifle RA 7 15
Ammo (Gauss) 8 LL 1 1
Ammo (Gauss) 8 RL 1 1

Notes:

After the renegade Word of Bob faction split off from the Word of Blake and
fled Terra, they found that they were short on Assault 'Mechs to serve as the
linchpins of their planetary invasions as they fought to capture worlds to use
as an industrial base. Word of Bob Precentor Marital Bob McBob decided that
what the Bob Militia needed was (sound familiar?) a 'Mech that could enagage an
entire company in seige operations. WoBob scientists studied the problem
thoroughly, finally settling on a design derived from a Technical Readout
obtained on Tukkayid. The readout provided specs for a Clan Doom Munchkin
prototype known as the Gausszilla. Working feverishly, Word of Bob was able to
rework the design using Inner Sphere technology and renamed it the Lucky Bob.

Capabilities:

The Lucky Bob is little more than a (barely) mobile seige machine. Its anemic
engine has to strain to push the 'Mech to 32 KPH, and its armor does little
more than keep out the wind and rain. In the words of Bob McBob, however, "Who
needs armor? This thing has FIVE GAUSS RIFLES!" The Lucky's Bob's ammo stores
are more than sufficent for thirty whole seconds of combat action, and a long
range targeting system prevents possibly catastrophic misses.

Deployment:

Two lances of Lucky Bobs were used in beseiging the city of New Podunk on the
planet Wayne's World in the Periphery. The Lucky Bobs, firing from
entrenchments, destroyed a number of pickup trucks and a single 3025 Spider.
One of the Lucky Bobs was lost when the Spider got off a weapons salvo before
it was destroyed, hitting the machine's arm and causing a catastrophic Gauss
Rifle explosion that destroyed the 'Mech.

Another Note: Thanks to whoever originally came up with the BattleTech Player
Type Quiz for giving me the idea for Word of Bob. Due credit is given.

Jeff Dougherty
Ad Astra pro Humanae Generis
Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
Greyslayer
01/10/02 11:13 AM
137.172.211.9

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Ah you see you have limited understanding of the munch mentality.

Munch : My Inner Sphere mech defeated a couple of Clan scum in a single battle!

Real Answer: My Clan Modified Inner Sphere-based mech ambushed two lighter mechs than me and they were stock. Boy I was lucky as they didn't even have good variants! Not to mention my pilot was better than either of them and more skills than my character has years of life.

The truth though is the munch probably had a good time and had his/her ego well fed, but what of the opponent? I've seen many players pushed out of games due to the 'me me me' mentality of certain players. Gaming sessions are usually dominated by what they want to do, if that is the case then why not become a GM and do something productive ... but rarely can they manage that ... they are selfish not selfless. This is what characterises a munch for me. A game is for more than one to gain enjoyment from if one player sucks the enjoyment from the game what else is keeping the other players there?

Greyslayer
Bob_Richter
01/10/02 11:14 AM
4.35.174.250

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Um. You may have a point. The Clan Gauss is, however, one of the less effective weapons in their arsenal.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter

Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
Karagin
01/10/02 11:16 AM
63.173.170.4

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Sounds like the Gausszilla thing Nystul came up with...and a friend of mine put four Clan Gauss rifles and a Large Pulse Laser on Clan tonner...needless to say it didn't take running a battle to figure out that was munchy.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Bob_Richter
01/10/02 11:16 AM
4.35.174.250

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Why would anyone ever use Gauss OVER ER PPCs?

Gauss AND ER PPCs is just disgusting, but I can't ever see using just Gauss and calling it a Munch 'Mech.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter

Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
Bob_Richter
01/10/02 11:22 AM
4.35.174.250

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You have such LOW standards of munch. Gausszilla isn't munchy -- it's funny. That thing wouldn't last any significant amount of time in combat. This Lucky Bob thing wouldn't last even that long.

*FOUR* GRs and *ONE* LPL?

That's hardly munchy at all. Vaguely painful, but I've seen 'Mechs that could stomp it and not break a sweat.


-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter

Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
Greyslayer
01/10/02 11:26 AM
137.172.211.9

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Under the old rules where it seems to suggest to Munchies that they can fire everything they have but gain no greater heat than 30 thus automatically shutting down but with say 30 heat sink be back on 0 heat the next round. A mech similar to the Gauzilla but made up of multiple ER PPCs could do far greater damage the problem being the unit would have to shut down for a round to do so ;). Personally though something similar to the Kodiac would be far nastier due to speed, armour and close-in firepower. Of course Fasa did finially clarify the heat rules .... eventually.

Greyslayer
Bob_Richter
01/10/02 11:26 AM
4.35.174.250

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You wouldn't know Munchy if it walked up and smacked you in the face. I've designed level one 'Mechs that could blast that thing to scrap, no questions asked.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter

Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
Karagin
01/10/02 11:30 AM
63.173.170.4

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I am glad you have seen worse or better however you want to look at it...and I am sorry that the way I define munchkin and munchy is not up to your high standards.

Guess you will have to live with that or not, your choice as seeing how this thread is an opinion based one on what we EACH think munchkinism is.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
01/10/02 11:32 AM
63.173.170.4

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Once again you are trying to tell that I should be following your take on what munchy is...and that is NOT what this thread is about.

So can you please stop tell folks that we don't know what a munchkin, since you don't have the finial say on what is a munchkin.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Bob_Richter
01/10/02 11:38 AM
4.35.174.250

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Actually, that's a Munchkin Favorite. Thanks for reminding me.

BattleMech Technical Readout

Type/Model: One-Shot Wonder OSW-101
Tech: Clan / 3025
Config: Biped BattleMech
Rules: Level 3, Standard design

Mass: 100 tons
Chassis: LooneyTech OSW Composite
Power Plant: 100 LooneyTech XXL Fusion
Walking Speed: 10.8 km/h
Maximum Speed: 21.6 km/h
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor Type: LooneyTech Laser Reflec.
Armament:
12 Clan Mk. XVII ER PPCs
Manufacturer: LooneyTech
Location: (Unknown)
Communications System: LooneyComm
Targeting & Tracking System: LooneyBird

==Overview:==
Designed by LooneyTech Incorporated in 2655, the One-Shot Wonder was immediately rejected by the SLDF purchasing bureau.

This didn't stop LooneyTech from building over 70,000 of the poorly-designed monstrosities (and driving itself well beyond bankrupcy), however, or some wiseacre Clanner from refitting it with advanced Clan weaponry.


==Capabilities:==
The One-Shot Wonder was designed to deliver maximum firepower at maximum range. Once. It was hoped this devastating initial volley would cripple or kill an enemy 'Mech even as the OSW's own pilot ejected to escape the raging inferno his cockpit would become.

==Notable 'Mechs & MechWarriors:==
Looney VonStrange once piloted the One-Shot Wonder into battle. Remarkably, both he and his 'Mech came back. When asked wherein lay the secret of success, he beat our reporter soundly with a stout stick.


--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model: One-Shot Wonder OSW-101
Mass: 100 tons

Equipment: Crits Mass
Int. Struct.: 152 pts Composite 0 5.00
Engine: 100 XXL 14 1.00
Walking MP: 1
Running MP: 2
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: 10 Single 6 .00
(Heat Sink Loc: 1 LA, 1 RA, 2 LT, 2 RT)
XL Gyro: 6 .50
Small Cockpit, Life Supt., Sensors: 4 2.00
Actuators: L: Sh+UA+LA+H R: Sh+UA+LA+H 16 .00
Armor Factor: 307 pts Laser Reflec. 5 19.50
(Armor Crit Loc: 1 LA, 2 RA, 1 LT, 1 RT)

Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head: 3 9
Center Torso: 31 46
Center Torso (Rear): 16
L/R Side Torso: 21 32/32
L/R Side Torso (Rear): 10/10
L/R Arm: 17 34/34
L/R Leg: 21 42/42

Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Crits Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
2 ER PPCs RA 30 4 12.00
3 ER PPCs LA 45 6 18.00
2 ER PPCs RT 30 4 12.00
2 ER PPCs LT 30 4 12.00
1 ER PPC HD 15 2 6.00
1 ER PPC LL 15 2 6.00
1 ER PPC RL 15 2 6.00
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: 180 75 100.00
Crits & Tons Left: 3 .00

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 37,588,666 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,609
Cost per BV: 23,361.51
Weapon Value: 666 / 666 (Ratio = .41 / .41)
Damage Factors: SRDmg = 10; MRDmg = 7; LRDmg = 4
BattleForce2: MP: 1, Armor/Structure: 8/4
Damage PB/M/L: 1/1/1, Overheat: 4
Class: MA; Point Value: 16
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter

Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
Bob_Richter
01/10/02 11:39 AM
4.35.174.250

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Similarly, you will just have to deal with me pointing out just how wrong you are every time you call some clearly non-munchy thing Munchkin.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter

Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
Karagin
01/10/02 11:44 AM
63.173.170.4

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To you based on your opinion it may not be munchy, so what does that prove? That you want to argue over nothing...thank you for telling us that.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Bob_Richter
01/10/02 11:49 AM
4.35.174.250

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No, Karagin.

I don't want to argue over nothing.

What I'd REALLY like is for you to stop calling everything under the sun that you don't like "munchy."

Words MEAN things, as my buddy Rodney is fond of pointing out.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter

Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
Karagin
01/10/02 11:55 AM
63.173.170.4

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If you say so, I forgot your opinion is law....
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
01/11/02 10:24 AM
63.173.170.117

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you fit in all the same as well, since you think YOUR opinion is one we all should be following...
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
01/11/02 10:26 AM
63.173.170.117

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You need to go and take an English course or something, if I have to explain that to you it is very sad to know you have no grasp on how words work...

Oh but I forgot your opinion is what I should be taking as fact and Bob's is the other end of the law..
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Bob_Richter
01/16/02 05:00 PM
134.121.247.162

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Dead is dead. It doesn't matter why. And that thing is dead the second it runs out of its six rounds.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter

Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
Karagin
01/30/02 01:16 AM
63.173.170.42

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One, who, on being told that this is a game about politics and intrigue in 17th century Italy, asks to play a ninja.

The above came from a friend of mine, he was telling us about this guy who did something very similar to the above comment in a D&D game. I think it fits.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
KamikazeJohnson
01/30/02 09:24 AM
209.202.47.12

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lol good one

I remember one from my HS days...a bunch of us were playing "Axis & Allies" (WWII strategy) and this one guy kept insisting that nearly every coastline has at least one major river, and these military superpowers have the machinery and manpower for portages, so yeah, sure his battleship actually can go overland if he really wants it too. He stalled the entire game until we let him do it, too. (his entire purpose in trying was to see if he could make us let him do it) The game ended not long after that...
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
Hellbringer
02/09/02 01:12 PM
192.195.234.26

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A munchkin does not under stand that he/she can only do so many different things in a turn. They cannot punch one mech, kick another, turn half way around and fire all their weapons on yet another mech, then finally walk behind a boulder for cover.
"But it SHOULD be a spectacle! It should be grand and exciting to us all! I'd hate to think that we've become so jaded that we find even our greatest tiumph, resurrecting the Star League, simply one more obligation."
-General Victor Steiner-Davion (First Prince and Archon in exile) 3064
TRYCORP
02/20/02 03:09 PM
205.188.197.166

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What mental stability..
"Machine Guns! Thats a Summoner out there! Do you plan to punch little holes in it, and have it fall down from too much ventilation!?!"

TRYCORP
Clan Nova Cat
novakitty
02/20/02 07:27 PM
24.240.246.16

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That alone is reason onough to use the 50 point heat scale where at 50 heat, the engine destabilizes and leaves a nice crater where the mech was standing.
meow
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