Countergod
Lieutenant
Reged: 08/07/02
Posts: 484
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Useless factories
#36349 - 08/15/02 09:31 AM (128.165.156.80)
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According to the Neveron Construction Chart, it seems that a Factory just does not seem like a worthy effort unless you actually want to work to create a market for people. It seems that Building a Commercial of the same size is better than a Factory especially when you consider Building Points. Maybe Neveron should have the Commercial output lowered so that being a manufacturer would be a profitable venture.
This is ofcourse going under the premonition that no one wants to pay 5 423 211 for a Hetzer. I imagine a mech would be even less profitable unless you give them outrageously high prices that noone can afford at any rate! 
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***Chemistry is like art. One wrong move can really ruin your day!***
To: All other empire leaders
From: Maj. NevLord Madman (Mad Man's Marauders [STB] )
Subject: Hi Neveron
Date Sent: 7/12/3222 12:50:00 AM
May i just point out u all suck 
Maj. NevLord Madman
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Shadow_IDC
Corporal
Reged: 07/07/02
Posts: 127
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Re: Useless factories
#36353 - 08/15/02 09:40 AM (24.112.110.117)
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Lowering construction building output would result in a very bad reaction from most small empires. An alternate solution is to raise the factory output somewhat. This will result in even lower prices in saturated markets, but would make factories more cost-effective in other markets such as vehicle and eventually mech construction.
The optimum scenario of course would be in a planet-wide war, where a large amount of units are destroyed on a daily basis. This would create a demand that would pull prices up to make factories significantly more profitable than equally sized commercials.
So everyone pick a target, and fire away 
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Countergod
Lieutenant
Reged: 08/07/02
Posts: 484
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Re: Useless factories
#36360 - 08/15/02 10:11 AM (128.165.156.80)
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This is not quite what I had in mind (planet wide war) but you have a good point. I didn't mean that we should lower the construction points of a factory, I was saying that something (like increasing the capacity of a factory) or lowering the output of a commercial building could be a nice change for people wanting to help the markets by making competition for MMM.
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***Chemistry is like art. One wrong move can really ruin your day!***
To: All other empire leaders
From: Maj. NevLord Madman (Mad Man's Marauders [STB] )
Subject: Hi Neveron
Date Sent: 7/12/3222 12:50:00 AM
May i just point out u all suck
Maj. NevLord Madman
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Moraelin
Sergeant
Reged: 08/05/02
Posts: 304
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Re: Useless factories
#36400 - 08/15/02 12:27 PM (217.83.140.244)
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I'm seeing some Hetzers for sale between 6,500,000 and 7,800,000 on the market at the moment. So I'm guessing that some market there must be.
A lot of other vehicles seem to command easily twice their CF price on the market, and they actually get sold. E.g., a JEP-MG seems to cost less than 300k to produce, according to that table, yet sells for easily _four_ times that price. (And I've seen some for sale at _five_ times that price, and they were gone the next day.) E.g., both Switchblade variants sell between two or three times that CF cost.
Besides, the CF cost in that table is IMHO incorrect. You don't just need to build the factory or the commercial centre, you have to build a factory _and_ four houses, or a commercial centre _and_ four houses. That's your real investment in producing either. So a more realistic "price to manufacture" would actually be around the average of the two prices in that table, a bit more towards the lower one.
And you can also look at it another way. Building space isn't infinite either. For the same 5 building places, in the long run four houses and a factory producing JEP-MG's will bring in one helluva lot more cash than four houses and a commercial centre. Basically the commercial centre will pay for itself quicker, but in the long run the factory can be more profitable.
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Moraelin - The proud member of the Idiots' Guild
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Moraelin
Sergeant
Reged: 08/05/02
Posts: 304
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Re: Useless factories
#36423 - 08/15/02 02:41 PM (217.83.140.244)
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Wanted to add one more correction. I don't know what happens at 150 CF, because I haven't researched that far. But I've just tried at 100 CF, and all else being equal (four floors and basement) a commercial building costs the same as a factory. The same seems to apply at all CF values between 10 and 100.
( At the moment, anyway. I _think_ factories used to be more expensive, but right now that's not the case.)
So unless something really weird happens between 100 and 150, there is no such thing as CF cost. The COM-Price is the only price.
Which means that, if the production speed numbers are correct, at the moment the Hetzer in your example really needs to sell for just 3,615,474 for your factory to be as profitable as a commercial building. And it seems that some people sell them for twice that.
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Moraelin - The proud member of the Idiots' Guild
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Stalker17
General
Reged: 06/24/02
Posts: 2581
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Re: Useless factories
#36438 - 08/15/02 03:50 PM (67.32.66.115)
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factory take 1.5 times as many build points not nev$
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"Insanity is just another word for true creativity"
da SEXY Stalker17, out
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Shadow_IDC
Corporal
Reged: 07/07/02
Posts: 127
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Re: Useless factories
#36451 - 08/15/02 05:33 PM (24.112.110.117)
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Build points are an endlessly renewable resource, they never run out, you will always have access to them as long as you have some ar-f units. Most (smaller) empires have their growth limited by money, not BP. As a result, prices should be based on return on monetary investment, not BP investment. Maybe larger empires do hit their limit because of BP limitations, but that limit is artificial, all they need is to create more builders.
In my opinion, at least, the only target price to keep in mind is the cash-based one. Anything over that is pure gravy.
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Stalker17
General
Reged: 06/24/02
Posts: 2581
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Re: Useless factories
#36454 - 08/15/02 05:36 PM (67.32.66.115)
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I'm just sayin' what it said at www.neveron.de
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"Insanity is just another word for true creativity"
da SEXY Stalker17, out
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JustMe3
Sergeant
Reged: 07/04/02
Posts: 263
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Re: Useless factories
#36469 - 08/15/02 06:46 PM (206.172.98.102)
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That price/cost thing will only last until the samething happens to vehicle production that has happened to AR-F sales. Somebody is bound to start doing the same thing, using a supplied quote: 'money doesn't matter' and the factories other empires have will not be able to amke enough to cost justify themselves. Then they could go back to being a commercial and keep some kind of income generation...
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"Oh look Auntie Em, Neveron is disappearing."
"My oh my, what is making that huge mushroom shape in the sky Dorothy?"
"That's Fifty Billion my little pretty ! Aaa hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha !"
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Moraelin
Sergeant
Reged: 08/05/02
Posts: 304
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Re: Useless factories
#36508 - 08/15/02 09:42 PM (217.83.135.216)
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Well, ok, guess that's what I get for posting at midnight. Sorry
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Moraelin - The proud member of the Idiots' Guild
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airbagTTS
Sergeant Major
Reged: 06/24/02
Posts: 220
Loc: near Stuttgart/Germany
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Re: Useless factories
#36526 - 08/16/02 02:46 AM (129.69.61.251)
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the reasons why i put the cf price on my page is the following:
- to get BPs you need inf or ev both have cost to buy and upkeep
- in the time i build a com it gets me more income during buildtime, for facs you have to finish the building AND tool it to start producing and then you have to sell the stuff to get the cash
- the thing with the 'unlimited' BP is nice to hear but as it is every empire has a certain ammount of them depending on what number of units they have (inf/ev) and the civ builders in the zones. if you take that number as FIX for a certain empire and time then it can build 50% more coms with them and so grow much faster.
overall to say it in other words: if you dont want to grow in a reasonable period of time take the com-price as your calculation base. But if your interested in a 'fast' growth of your empire you have to calc with cf-price AND moral factor!
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Comment 1: "Life would be much easier if I had the source Code"
Comment 2: "In a world without walls and fences - who needs windows and gates?"
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Thor
Sergeant
Reged: 07/30/02
Posts: 374
Loc: Belgium
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Re: Useless factories
#36534 - 08/16/02 04:08 AM (213.224.83.134)
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I only have been playing neveron for a few weeks, but from what i read in this and other threads it looks like the current economy system is badly broken.
worst problem seems to be the low price of waepons for infantory, cause this is what most people can produce now (not me, still trying to get medium buildings). the problem is almost identical to what the farmers are always complaining about (at least here in europe) overproduction and to low demand resulting in prices that doesn't cover the production costs.
2 ways to solve the problem: increase demand, or lower production of those goods.
WORST THING TO DO IS TO INCREASE PRODUCTION (like farmers always do here) it will only result in even lower prices make gap between production cost and sell price even larger.
so what can be done ?
* increase the demand: global war could be a way, but i don't see this hapening right away. another way to increase demand would be making the arena's more attractive for infantory, like add an extra bonus price for battles you win with infantory, every battle i have played so far results in about 70% of the infantory killed, meaning those waepons needs to be replaced, more demand.
* lower the production: this can be done by giving larger empire a lower % of the sell money they actualy recieve on low tech waepons. this would force those larger empire to raise their price if they want to keep making money by selling waepons or step over to higher tech where they would get a higher share of the sell price.
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JustMe3
Sergeant
Reged: 07/04/02
Posts: 263
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Re: Useless factories
#36553 - 08/16/02 07:56 AM (209.226.251.58)
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Well, one way that more of a demand can be created is to make the arenas more attractive to create/enter. As it stands right now, the creation cost, replacement costs for battle down-sized troops take the bulk of the earnings (unless you get very lucky and don't lose too many soldiers). The arenas do not allow fro a retreat (even though the text next to the arena boards indicate you should be able to retreat), so someone has to lose everything that take to the arena, before the arena battle is over. Now that gives a full replacement that has to take place. Unless the empire has gone with minimal number of units and has a high income, it will take a lot of time to generate cash to replace them.
Arena prizes could be doubled to make an even greater incentive to try them and in addition, the prize allocation could be a 90 / 10 split as the maximum down to the current 70/30.
So, if the arena prize is currently 1.6 mil (rounded); double it to 3.2. With a 90/10 split, that gives 320K back to the losing empire and just under 3 mil to the winner. This keeps a decided bonus to the winning party, allows the losing empire to have a bit easier time to replenish.
Unless of course some agreeable method to retreat is formed, like a percentage of lose as compared to the opponent. You have 5 troops left the other side has 21, oops less than 25% - "Do you wish to surrender/Retreat ?"
By adding the incentive to have more arena time, that should drive up demand for various items in the markets.
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"Oh look Auntie Em, Neveron is disappearing."
"My oh my, what is making that huge mushroom shape in the sky Dorothy?"
"That's Fifty Billion my little pretty ! Aaa hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha !"
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Countergod
Lieutenant
Reged: 08/07/02
Posts: 484
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Re: Useless factories
#36554 - 08/16/02 07:58 AM (128.165.156.80)
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This seems reasonable except for two points
First, I DO NOT WANT GLOBAL WARFARE!!!!!!!!! IT IS HARD ENOUGH TO BUILD AN EMPIRE WITHOUT IT!!!!!! With that said, the second point I will argue is that AR prices should remain low. Even at 7K for rifles, it's hard on a newbie, muchless at 10 K. You would have to pay 84K more just to make a platoon at the above mentioned prices! Other things can go up, but not AR prices
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***Chemistry is like art. One wrong move can really ruin your day!***
To: All other empire leaders
From: Maj. NevLord Madman (Mad Man's Marauders [STB] )
Subject: Hi Neveron
Date Sent: 7/12/3222 12:50:00 AM
May i just point out u all suck
Maj. NevLord Madman
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Countergod
Lieutenant
Reged: 08/07/02
Posts: 484
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Re: Useless factories
#36555 - 08/16/02 08:00 AM (128.165.156.80)
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See my comments in Battle Fatigue in the General discussions please
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***Chemistry is like art. One wrong move can really ruin your day!***
To: All other empire leaders
From: Maj. NevLord Madman (Mad Man's Marauders [STB] )
Subject: Hi Neveron
Date Sent: 7/12/3222 12:50:00 AM
May i just point out u all suck
Maj. NevLord Madman
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KamikazeJohnson
Major
Reged: 01/01/02
Posts: 1391
Loc: WINTERpeg, MB, Canada
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Re: Useless factories
#36644 - 08/16/02 08:54 PM (142.161.48.104)
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I think it's really a self-curing problem...since there is little "real" profit in AR-F sales, producers will retool to produce the next item as soon as they can. I think the real reason for the low prices is that at the moment, a large number of empires are at the point where they are just starting producing, and are unable to produce worthwhile units. They produce AR-Fs because, with no production cost once the factory is built and retooled, it's better than producing nothing at all.
In the near future, one of two things will happen:
1) the current "bubble" of empires will outgrow the AR-F-producing stage and move on to more profitable markets, thus reducing supply and allowing the price to rise, or
2) a constant flow of new empires will fill the production gaps and keep prices low, but those factories will continue to be built so they are in place to produce better units at a later date (and produce AR-Fs in the meantime)
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I kill $%!^.
And I enjoy the hell out of it.
--Ted Nugent
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Shadow_IDC
Corporal
Reged: 07/07/02
Posts: 127
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Re: Useless factories
#36651 - 08/16/02 09:52 PM (24.112.110.117)
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Both points mentioned are likely, but the combination of them will probably happen. As the current producers get better tech, they will start to produce more items. While they will not all be making the same things, the net effect will llikely be a lowering of prices across the infantry markets. Newer empires just starting out their production will still keep the AR-F prices low, possibly even lower than current values.
So the short term will in my opinion see a reduction in infantry prices (already noticeable, as flamethrowers and MG units are under 7000 at the moment). In the longer term, prices will start to fall slowly in low-tech vehicles, as the general level of tech of the crop of producers improves.
As current vehicles are for the most part way overpriced, this will benefit the consumers more than the producers. However, the price drops will not be as dramatic as they have been in the infantry arenas, due to the fact that the producers can diversify into a much larger variety of products.
So I am definitely liking the outlook as far as the market is concerned.
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Moraelin
Sergeant
Reged: 08/05/02
Posts: 304
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Re: Useless factories
#36715 - 08/17/02 02:52 PM (217.225.100.110)
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Actually, methinks you got the whole thing backwards. Ever wondered why people are hiding behind those alliances in the first place, instead of having a jolly good planetary war? I mean, go into MegaMek.NET, and everyone's just begging you to have a fight with them. Why doesn't that happen here? How come that instead of that, here we're instead doing our best to stay unnoticed and to hide behind a big alliance?
Because it's obviously pointless to even try.
I see no point in even trying to compete with someone 1000 times my size, 1000 times my economy, and with 1000 times my BV. Sorry, that does not compute. War games are good and fun, but only when some equal chances are involved.
Think of any successful multi-player strategy or RTS. Starcraft, Warcraft, Red Alert, whichever you will. The point is that while there is some (minimal) economy involved, all players involved in a conflict start at the same point. At least in theory, they all start the war with equal chances to win.
Now imagine going into a StarCraft game where the opponent already has a huge base churning troops, and a billion resources, while you start at zero. How much fun is that kind of game? Not much. Bang, you're dead. Oh, the excitement.
Well, that's the kind of fun I'd expect war in Neveron to be.
While I'm impressed with Neveron from a technical side of things and all, the more I think about it, the more I think that it's an idea which can not possibly work. Because either way you want to look at it, given enough time it produces exactly the kind of situation I've described. Zulus vs the English empire. Bob the Newbie versus someone with 1,000,000 BV. And if they end up at war, there's no way in heck that Bob the Newbie will have any fun from that.
And the more time goes by, the bigger the gap gets.
And pushing for planetary war isn't going to solve anything, except make the rich even richer and the poor even poorer. Basically all you can hope to achieve is to force a thousand Bob the Newbie to get wiped out by their big neighbour, and have about as much fun in the process as from a kick in the crotch.
And for most people it's not much fun the other way around, either. Sure, I could theoretically march my Schrek's into my small neighbour who's just turned level 1. How much fun is that? Not much, either. What's the point? What's the challenge? I know before hand that the poor bugger's not going to have a chance.
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Moraelin - The proud member of the Idiots' Guild
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KamikazeJohnson
Major
Reged: 01/01/02
Posts: 1391
Loc: WINTERpeg, MB, Canada
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Re: Useless factories
#36720 - 08/17/02 03:23 PM (142.161.48.206)
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Another point...
It isn't so much the fear of allies ganging up on you...the problem is that if I, at level 1, attack my level 1 neighbour, my level 10 neighbour decides that my aggressive actions make me a dangerous neighbour, and so I get wiped out before I can become a threat. I saw this happen to a neighbouring empire of mine because he didn't have DRs with many of his neighbours.
Personally, I don't think hard-coding alliances will encourage wars. On the contrary, I think there will be fewer wars, since it will become even more likely that the guy you attack is part of a large, powerful empire, so picking a fight is too risky. And having allies of your own is little consolation if you know that you will be nearly wiped out before they can come to your aid.
One thing that might encourage wars would be to change the "Diplomatic Relations" alliance. It should be the lowest form of relations, meaning nothing more than that you have made contact with a given empire. It should not require a NAP; rather it should be the precursor to one. As it stands, you cannot attack someone you speak to regularly, and you cannot speak to your enemy while you are at war. The result is that many players immediately set up DR with their neighbours in order to find out who they are, and in doing so, they leavethemselves with no one to attack.
Just a few of my thoughts on why I haven't started a war (yet) 
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I kill $%!^.
And I enjoy the hell out of it.
--Ted Nugent
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anderclayton
Captain
Reged: 08/05/02
Posts: 894
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Re: Useless factories
#36722 - 08/17/02 03:38 PM (208.186.188.127)
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There is also the fact that right now it is literally *impossible* to set up a mapwide war because Level 0's can't be attacked. A Level 0 can take up a fair amount of space too...
If you wanted to make a wall between empires and had a Level 0 in the area, all you would need to do would be to keep that empire at level zero...
That same sort of thing goes with Outposts. If you are a Level 1, would you want to attack an outpost of some big and buff empire? Outposts can't be attacked (when they are level zero) but get huge advantages diplomatically (and some major monetary bonuses). If you are low level and suddenly an Outpost pops up next to you it can mean that you basically need to give up your empire... Not too fun there.
Ander
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Shadow_IDC
Corporal
Reged: 07/07/02
Posts: 127
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Re: Useless factories
#36723 - 08/17/02 03:57 PM (24.112.110.117)
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Actually, you can be attacked, and attack anyone regardless of what kind of alliance you have set up with them. I learned this the hard way about 5 hours ago. The only restriction with alliances is that you cannot declare war. You can still attack zone by zone without any problems.
Another point I want to raise is that the new alliances, at least as they have been described, will be much smaller than existing ones. As a result, most of the current alliances will be forced to fracture, and not be able to help their former allies. The alliances, with the exception of MM's will be largely weaker, thus less threatening.
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Shadow_IDC
Corporal
Reged: 07/07/02
Posts: 127
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Re: Useless factories
#36724 - 08/17/02 04:14 PM (24.112.110.117)
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The solution then is to limit the size of the alliance you would possibly face. The proposed system still allows alliances that are probably too big. I mean, MM is level 12, so he could have 144 empire levels in his alliance. That's still 14 level 10's
How about limiting the alliance members by their level, such that if the leader is say level 10, there would be room for 1 lev. 9, 2 lev. 8, 3 lev.7, and so on down to 9 lev.1 empires. This would typically give more levels per alliance, but less effective power, since most of the members are guaranteed to be low level.
Just a thought...
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Countergod
Lieutenant
Reged: 08/07/02
Posts: 484
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Re: Useless factories
#36730 - 08/17/02 08:57 PM (12.74.0.29)
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I think that Neveron is fine now. There is warefare, but not on a huge scale, which means that newbies have a fare chance of living and becoming larger. With planet wide war, it would eventually mean no influx of new players. For more of my opinion, see the thread in suggested changes titled "A disturbing trend"
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***Chemistry is like art. One wrong move can really ruin your day!***
To: All other empire leaders
From: Maj. NevLord Madman (Mad Man's Marauders [STB] )
Subject: Hi Neveron
Date Sent: 7/12/3222 12:50:00 AM
May i just point out u all suck
Maj. NevLord Madman
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Dagger26
Sergeant
Reged: 06/27/02
Posts: 288
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Re: Useless factories
#36734 - 08/17/02 09:42 PM (207.164.209.6)
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I think you've hit the nail on the head with your assesment of part of the problem, but you are going 180 degrees in the wrong direction.
Examples: The Technology complex. A wonderful idea, but who can build one. Only the large Empires.
Sensors. Who benefits? The ones who can buy the most expensive mechs, in otherwords, the large Empires. (although you said your introducing smaller types for that purpose)
Alliances. Who benefits? The head of the alliance gets all the bonuses. Who are they? The large Empires.
You want war on Neveron? Abolish the Alliances. Okay, maybe not completely, but any Empire that is say, greater than Level 6. Only allow the little guys to band together for mutual protection. Limit the amount in each alliance. The large Empires should be able to stand on their own. I mean who in thier right mind would attack MMM or Kraken Guard "Whatever" Galaxy? Do these guys need alliances? I think not. But if you have a dozen level 4's picking at them from various border locations, they have to manage it all on their own. The price of being big.
Also, incorporate a mandatory listing of Alliances, hard coded into the Alliance section so that everyone can see who belongs to what Alliance and who's in it. I mean let's face it, you attack an Empire and it turns out he's allied with WOB, you are toast. Or if you defend against an aggressor, retaliate, and now all his buddies are after you. That's not kosher.
In summary:
Max Level your Empire can be and still be in an Alliance - Level 6
Max number of Level "X" Empires in any given alliance - 12.
Max number of Empires you control allowed to be in the same alliance with another Empire you control - 2
Bonuses for all members in the alliance - your call, but my suggestion would be more money. Lot's more.
As it stands now, I will not start a land war with my Empire(s). After spending 4 RL months building (modest compared to some), I don't want to attack and find out I've got 10 other humongeous Empires gunning for me. I get wiped out and have to start again? Not likely. The rest of the guys that posted after you are right. That's not fun. Make it worthwhile for the little guys and more people will join, more people will war and all of Neveron will benefit.
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"Between a battle lost and a battle won, the distance is immense and there stand Empires" - Napoleon Bonaparte
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JustMe3
Sergeant
Reged: 07/04/02
Posts: 263
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Re: Useless factories
#37069 - 08/20/02 12:11 PM (209.226.250.82)
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The Holy Grail? When I first signed up to play this game, it said one could be a war based empire, a empire builder (basically the manufacture) or both.
Why try to make Land War more popular than it is. The war logs show a lot of that is going on all the time.
Whether there are factions (sounds really like a commitment to further terrorism), alliances or nothing, the game is becoming more for those who want to stomp on anyone else (especially those smaller), and also, it seems the game is getting to be more for the larger empires and those who fall into the rich-kid, white-collar niche.
Sorry if the observation bothers anyone, just the way it seems to me right now.
--------------------
"Oh look Auntie Em, Neveron is disappearing."
"My oh my, what is making that huge mushroom shape in the sky Dorothy?"
"That's Fifty Billion my little pretty ! Aaa hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha !"
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Countergod
Lieutenant
Reged: 08/07/02
Posts: 484
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Re: Useless factories
#37073 - 08/20/02 12:25 PM (128.165.156.80)
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That's where it seems to be going in my opinion, too!!!
--------------------
***Chemistry is like art. One wrong move can really ruin your day!***
To: All other empire leaders
From: Maj. NevLord Madman (Mad Man's Marauders [STB] )
Subject: Hi Neveron
Date Sent: 7/12/3222 12:50:00 AM
May i just point out u all suck
Maj. NevLord Madman
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