Sarna.net Classic BattleTech Forums: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

You are not logged in. [Login]

Forums Index · Search · Active Topics · New user · Who's Online

Neveron >> Role Playing/Politics

Jump to first unread post.

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | >> (show all)

Countergod
Lieutenant

Reged: 08/07/02
Posts: 484

DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48610 - 01/31/03 01:52 PM (160.39.139.148)

I wish I could greet you under better circumstances, but these are trying times. Randy has posted the costs of the new Building crews. Go to your Buildings page (on land/buildings) and click crews on the top row (next to buildings). I think every one will agree that these prices are insane.

It was voted on in the Neveron Chat to boycott DP's until randy divides it by 10, and passed unanimously. Vote here and we can have a petition going. Good Day all.

--------------------
***Chemistry is like art. One wrong move can really ruin your day!***

To: All other empire leaders
From: Maj. NevLord Madman (Mad Man's Marauders [STB] )
Subject: Hi Neveron
Date Sent: 7/12/3222 12:50:00 AM

May i just point out u all suck

Maj. NevLord Madman

Post Extras:

Countergod
Lieutenant

Reged: 08/07/02
Posts: 484

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48611 - 01/31/03 02:03 PM (160.39.139.148)

My mistake, I didnt mean ban, I ment boycott

--------------------
***Chemistry is like art. One wrong move can really ruin your day!***

To: All other empire leaders
From: Maj. NevLord Madman (Mad Man's Marauders [STB] )
Subject: Hi Neveron
Date Sent: 7/12/3222 12:50:00 AM

May i just point out u all suck

Maj. NevLord Madman

Post Extras:

davion76
Lieutenant Colonel

Reged: 08/07/02
Posts: 1605
Loc: Ridgecrest CA, USA

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48612 - 01/31/03 02:11 PM (12.219.245.15)

The costs aren't all that much different for lower lvl crews. a lvl 1 crew is actually a little cheaper than ARF to maintain, though they will take FOREVER to complete anything (unless you add a EV). lvl 2 and 3 seem to be pretty much the same as infantry ($50 per nevday per person + military maintenance)

Post Extras:

Thor
Sergeant

Reged: 07/30/02
Posts: 374
Loc: Belgium

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48614 - 01/31/03 02:33 PM (213.224.83.167)

how is someone supposed to hire (lets forget about upkeep atm) a lvl 8 building crew? i thought someone can't hold more then 2.000.000.000 credits.

and lets all agree that a lvl 5 crew is best an empire can get untill they hit like lvl 10, so then how is anyone supposed to build a Tech center? 200.000 BP at 125BP/day means a nice 1600 nevdays being 160 RL days.

Post Extras:

MadWolf
Corporal

Reged: 06/18/02
Posts: 172
Loc: Ohio

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48617 - 01/31/03 02:49 PM (134.53.144.92)

I like the way it is D@Mit! Otherwise there is no real purpose for INF. Plus the Lower levels can have there INF build and in a time of crisis use the INF to deal as much damage to an attacker as possible! If i were Runing a milatary id Have my Grunts Trained to use guns as well a Assult Rifles!

--------------------
Nothing is Impossible, It is only Improbable.

Post Extras:

Krait
Lieutenant Colonel

Reged: 06/22/02
Posts: 1639
Loc: Krautland

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48619 - 01/31/03 02:53 PM (172.177.49.223)

How are the prices insane?
The lvl8 price is 4 billion. 5000 BP equals 1000 EVs. The market price for EVs is 6 million, so for 1000 EVs atm you would actually pay MORE. I agree the maintenance is whacked though. But asking for a DP boycott...

*shakes head*

And people call me childish sometimes...

Lata
Krait

Edited by Krait (01/31/03 04:17 PM)

Post Extras:

Countergod
Lieutenant

Reged: 08/07/02
Posts: 484

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48620 - 01/31/03 03:05 PM (160.39.139.148)

yes the level 1 is easier to maintain, but they cost about 2x as much and produce less than half the BP.

--------------------
***Chemistry is like art. One wrong move can really ruin your day!***

To: All other empire leaders
From: Maj. NevLord Madman (Mad Man's Marauders [STB] )
Subject: Hi Neveron
Date Sent: 7/12/3222 12:50:00 AM

May i just point out u all suck

Maj. NevLord Madman

Post Extras:

TheDeadlyShoe
Lieutenant Colonel

Reged: 06/22/02
Posts: 1621
Loc: Redmond, WA

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48622 - 01/31/03 03:09 PM (4.40.153.191)

LET'S WORK THE MATH PEOPLE

A single Support Point works out to $500/nevday. (15000/30).
An AR-F (Essentially useless for defence) costs that one support point and additionally has 28*50 soldier-cost per nevday, or 1400. That's 1900/nevday for 2.8 BP. A Jump-crew costs 2900/nevday. (But is useful for defence.)

1900/2.8 = ~679/day. an AR-F (The cheapest of current builders), costs $679/day per BP. Compared to 500 for a level 1 crew. (which you can attach an EV to, for maximum-cheaposity, since it brings the cost down. $1,550/nevday for 6 BP, or $258/BP.)

Let's get a little higher up in the structure. A level 4 Crew costs 20000/nevday for 25 BP, or $800/BP. However, attaching EVs to it lowers the cost. Say you attach 4 EVs for 45 BP. The Daily cost of an EV is $1,050, adding up to $24,200 per nevday. However that / 45 BP = $538/nevday. Far cheaper.

Now, to the ludicrous, a Level 7 Building Crew, For Building TCs And Stuff Like That. It will certainly be the least effecient, but whee, 1000 BP! I'm not gonna go to level 8 cuz, uh, that's just silly. Build a TC in 4 days, woo.

1,500,000 / 1000 BP equals a daily maintenance of $1500/BP. Expensive, but you need something like this to build a TC. ( 200k BP, done in twenty days, by ONE CREW.)

Anyhoo basically the new building system will be slightly cheaper than current infantry for building purposes but a bit more expensive than EV-Legions. Level 1s are the most price-effecient, especially if you add a EV, but they'd take a week to construct even a 25 CF Residential (without an EV.) With an EV they are probably the best choice for a small empire. When you start increasing your CF you will probably want some higher level crews to complete in a reasonable period of time/ ( Level 4s or Level 3s w/ Attached EVs.)

One thing, it'll be cheaper to construct a lot of buildings at once using more, cheaper crews, than it will be to construct a few buildings utilizing higher quality crews

*DONT FORGET* Res and Comm function when they are partially built, so it doesnt really matter if they are under construction.

As to a level 5 being the best an empire can get till level 10? BS. If you can afford a $1,000,000,000 TC, you can easily afford a Level 6 Crew.

2bill is a personal limit, I believe the 'treasury' itself can hold more funds. (Not confirmed, but otherwise we would have a whoooole lot of screeching, believe you me.)

1 1 100,000 500
2 4 500,000 3,000
3 10 2,000,000 8,000
4 25 5,000,000 20,000
5 100 25,000,000 100,000
6 250 75,000,000 300,000
7 1000 500,000,000 1,500,000
8 5000 4,000,000,000 10,000,000

As to a DP Boycott, PAH. Work the numbers.

Additionally Infantry will start kicking ass. Think: Heavy Armor (Take half damage from opponent weapons), APCs, Anti-Mech infantry, etc.....good stuff!

*edit* I got distracted while I was writing this post so its a little not-up-to-date with all the posts.

--------------------
Shoe for the NSI

Edited by TheDeadlyShoe (01/31/03 03:11 PM)

Post Extras:

Countergod
Lieutenant

Reged: 08/07/02
Posts: 484

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48623 - 01/31/03 03:11 PM (160.39.139.148)

395 ENG-3R Engineering Vehicle 40 $ 6,000,000 [50] Group W
132 ENG-3R Engineering Vehicle 40 $ 6,000,000 [19] Clan Frost Badger
88 ENG-3R Engineering Vehicle 40 $ 6,000,000 [17] Clan Frost Badger
135 ENG-3R Engineering Vehicle 40 $ 6,000,000 [17] Genyosha Prime
219 ENG-3R Engineering Vehicle 40 $ 6,000,000 [30] Steel Roses Trading Co.

I love that 60mil price range

and also, 1000 Ev's are much cheaper to maintain. And forget EV's, those are for the rich of neveron. I am comparing prices to AR-F platoons. I have 750 BP and pay about 300-350K to maintain them. int he new system I can only get 250BP for that maintanance cost.

Compared to the current system, its just not worth it. IMHO (or not so humble, you decide

) The vote is to divide the price by ten to make it comparable to the infantry for the costs and maintanance, I am not sure, but it might be a little more expensive still, but atleast reasonable

--------------------
***Chemistry is like art. One wrong move can really ruin your day!***

To: All other empire leaders
From: Maj. NevLord Madman (Mad Man's Marauders [STB] )
Subject: Hi Neveron
Date Sent: 7/12/3222 12:50:00 AM

May i just point out u all suck

Maj. NevLord Madman

Post Extras:

TheDeadlyShoe
Lieutenant Colonel

Reged: 06/22/02
Posts: 1621
Loc: Redmond, WA

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48625 - 01/31/03 03:13 PM (4.40.153.191)

"yes the level 1 is easier to maintain, but they cost about 2x as much and produce less than half the BP. "

????

For equivalent BP you are paying far less in initial costs for a level 1 crew than you are for an AR-F. ( 2.8 level 1s= $280,000, the same cost as JUST the soldiers (not guns) of a AR-F.)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I love that 60mil price range and also, 1000 Ev's are much cheaper to maintain. And forget EV's, those are for the rich of neveron. I am comparing prices to AR-F platoons. I have 750 BP and pay about 300-350K to maintain them. int he new system I can only get 250BP for that maintanance cost.
---
I use EVs in all my new empires. High initial, but it keeps your costs down, which is important in small empires. Look at my post. You can get far more than 250 BP for that maintenance.

*works math*
750 / 2.8 = ~270 platoons.
270 * 500 + 270 * 1400 = ~500k/nevday. Additionally, that does not count maintenance %.
---

Compared to the current system, its just not worth it. IMHO (or not so humble, you decide ) The vote is to divide the price by ten to make it comparable to the infantry for the costs and maintanance, I am not sure, but it might be a little more expensive still, but atleast reasonable
-----------
It IS reasonable.

---------

LOOK guys, i know that nearly EVERY person has at One Point Or Another said 'Why cant we just use guys with shovels'?, and here we are, Guys With Shovels, and people want to stick with inf.

--------------------
Shoe for the NSI

Post Extras:

CyberGonzo
Newbie

Reged: 07/11/02
Posts: 11

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48626 - 01/31/03 03:13 PM (216.23.122.173)

I don't think the prices are that bad. At first, I was shocked by the $4bil price tag on the lvl 8. But do you realize that one lvl8 build crew can build a TC in 40 NevDays, or 4 RL days! That almost makes the price tag seem too low. Another interesting thing I noticed is that a lvl4 crew with 4EVs (45 BP / NevDay) can build a 150CF 4flr Residential w/ basement (450 BP) in 1 RLday. So 4 lvl4s w/ 16 EVs for your residences, and maybe a lvl5 w/ 5 EVs for your 'production' type building. It'll be a lot easier to manage than a slew of infantry and EVs.

My biggest concern with this change is the morale hit that will occur when the BV associated with all my building units disappears. Oh well, my 2 cents.

--------------------
"Early to rise, and early to bed, makes a man healthy, wealthy, and dead."

----------------
CyberGonzo

Post Extras:

Countergod
Lieutenant

Reged: 08/07/02
Posts: 484

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48628 - 01/31/03 03:15 PM (160.39.139.148)

but much more expensive to buy and maintain. THis is just hosing the players and forcing them to donate more to keep building. Look at the way the morale drops also, no one will be able to keep a green line anymore

--------------------
***Chemistry is like art. One wrong move can really ruin your day!***

To: All other empire leaders
From: Maj. NevLord Madman (Mad Man's Marauders [STB] )
Subject: Hi Neveron
Date Sent: 7/12/3222 12:50:00 AM

May i just point out u all suck

Maj. NevLord Madman

Post Extras:

TheDeadlyShoe
Lieutenant Colonel

Reged: 06/22/02
Posts: 1621
Loc: Redmond, WA

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48629 - 01/31/03 03:19 PM (4.40.153.191)

CG if you disband 70% of that inf I guarentee you your income will skyrocket. Obviously your construction ability outpaces your income already; lose some of that inf! It wont hurt. It might drop your morale to negative, but the cost you free up will be worth far more to your income. Additionally, with neg income, morale drop causes income to go up not down.

P.S.

I would like to not that inf will not be worth nearly their maintenance right now, even if they get "Kool Gadgets", so...less price on those.

--------------------
Shoe for the NSI

Edited by TheDeadlyShoe (01/31/03 03:23 PM)

Post Extras:

Countergod
Lieutenant

Reged: 08/07/02
Posts: 484

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48630 - 01/31/03 03:23 PM (160.39.139.148)

Let me ask this: how many people own EV's to increase the BP of the crews? I dont know about you, but I dont have 6mil (or 60mil if you believe Krait

) to invest in EV's. I maintain a very thin green line, as does most of the empires in neveron and we need that 6mil for units to defend ourselves from mauraders. and there is something wrong with your math here. because I pay about 300K in maintainance for 750BP of infantry, and some of those are flamer units (hey they were cheaper than the ar-f's that day

) for that mantainance, I can only get 250 BP in one unit or 300BP for 3 units, and that slows down my building more, because I build 9 buildings in 2 nevdays(I have 125CF right now)

--------------------
***Chemistry is like art. One wrong move can really ruin your day!***

To: All other empire leaders
From: Maj. NevLord Madman (Mad Man's Marauders [STB] )
Subject: Hi Neveron
Date Sent: 7/12/3222 12:50:00 AM

May i just point out u all suck

Maj. NevLord Madman

Post Extras:

Countergod
Lieutenant

Reged: 08/07/02
Posts: 484

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48631 - 01/31/03 03:25 PM (160.39.139.148)

suprisingly, shoe, my infantry are almost never not building something, and read my post in responce to your post below

--------------------
***Chemistry is like art. One wrong move can really ruin your day!***

To: All other empire leaders
From: Maj. NevLord Madman (Mad Man's Marauders [STB] )
Subject: Hi Neveron
Date Sent: 7/12/3222 12:50:00 AM

May i just point out u all suck

Maj. NevLord Madman

Post Extras:

Countergod
Lieutenant

Reged: 08/07/02
Posts: 484

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48633 - 01/31/03 03:28 PM (160.39.139.148)

Shoe, please stop comparing to EV's because most empires cant afford them, and 750 BP of units costs me 300K to maintain. Also, no one in thier right mind would use a level 1 crew. what can one do with it? a leve 25 building every what? 2 RL days?! thats horrendous.

--------------------
***Chemistry is like art. One wrong move can really ruin your day!***

To: All other empire leaders
From: Maj. NevLord Madman (Mad Man's Marauders [STB] )
Subject: Hi Neveron
Date Sent: 7/12/3222 12:50:00 AM

May i just point out u all suck

Maj. NevLord Madman

Post Extras:

CyberGonzo
Newbie

Reged: 07/11/02
Posts: 11

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48637 - 01/31/03 03:38 PM (216.23.122.173)

This change may actually change the dynamic of the EV market. Imagine if your current build force is composed entirely of EVs. After the change, you have ZERO BPs because you have no build crews to link your EVs to. Will it be possible to sell EVs after the change since they're no longer military units? If so, the market is going to be flooded as EV heavy empires get rid of all the EVs they can no longer support. Flooded market means nice low prices...

--------------------
"Early to rise, and early to bed, makes a man healthy, wealthy, and dead."

----------------
CyberGonzo

Post Extras:

CyberGonzo
Newbie

Reged: 07/11/02
Posts: 11

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48638 - 01/31/03 03:45 PM (216.23.122.173)

Another thought on the topic of maintenance (and more ammo for Countergod's argument). Are the build maintenance costs going to be included in the Military Maintenance or separated out? If they're included, that will make it worthless to raise your Maintenance percentage over 125%. Imagine having to pay 225% of the maint/ costs of your build crews for no benefit (unless you could train them up levels)...

--------------------
"Early to rise, and early to bed, makes a man healthy, wealthy, and dead."

----------------
CyberGonzo

Post Extras:

nosajtpno
Sergeant

Reged: 01/30/03
Posts: 113

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48639 - 01/31/03 03:53 PM (66.112.225.209)

I think these are awfully good prices. I used to use Machine gun Motorized Infantry to build my buildings. (about $23,000/ nevday). That's a little less than 3 BP per day. Now, for $20,000/nevday, I can get 25 BP per day. The cost for buying the builders doesn't bother me as much as it did when I first saw it, Its only a one time cost, and I'll make up the cost in time for not having to support the high numbers of infantry I used to.

My only worry... does anyone know how things will work if a zone with builders in it is attacked? If the defender looses, are the builders destroyed? captured? Do you have a chance to retreat them?

Post Extras:

TheDeadlyShoe
Lieutenant Colonel

Reged: 06/22/02
Posts: 1621
Loc: Redmond, WA

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48640 - 01/31/03 03:54 PM (4.40.153.191)

If you could afford to buyt hat inf you can easily afford to buy EVs. Most empries CAN afford them. THey just dont want to.

--------------------
Shoe for the NSI

Post Extras:

Moloch
Sergeant Major

Reged: 04/16/02
Posts: 276

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48641 - 01/31/03 03:57 PM (67.224.53.169)

I only have one thing to say: "YOU HAVE GOT TO BE SH*CENSORED*ING ME!!!"

I don't want to buy more crap just so my EVs work. Unbeliveable that I am going to have to hire just one crew per vehicle and I am going to need to hire 48!!!!!

WTF IS WITH ALL THE GODDAMN MONEY SINKS!!!!!

Randy's Notebook of Ideas!
1. Piss off the players
2. Piss off the donaters
3. See 1
4. See 2
5. See 3
6. See 4
7. See 5
8. See 6
9. See 7
10. See 8

--------------------
Popular Bumper Stickers
“Keep honking: I’m re-loading”
“If you don’t mind, please eject now: that Mech is a **** to salvage"
“I ran out of room to stencil all the Mechs I’ve killed, so now I just go by regiment’s wiped out.”

Post Extras:

Krait
Lieutenant Colonel

Reged: 06/22/02
Posts: 1639
Loc: Krautland

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48643 - 01/31/03 04:17 PM (172.177.49.223)

CG, just because YOU cannot (or dont want to) afford EVs doesnt mean most empires cannot afford them. I am selling legions of them to 100s of empires I have never heard of before, so I guess there is a sizeable number of empires out there actually utilizing EVs. So comparing the prices to EVs has a valid point. And in that comparison the maintenance costs are really really bad. I hope they will be tweaked a little. But the creation costs are pretty fair.

Lata
Krait

Post Extras:

AndrewCrisp
Sergeant

Reged: 11/22/02
Posts: 176
Loc: MilCom Centre, Outpost One, No...

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48649 - 01/31/03 04:29 PM (156.34.213.12)

Since we don't yet have the ability to actually purchase the crews, I suggest we wait until that ability is coded and we have a chance to take the construction crews for a spin. If those purchase costs are one-time only (I have no quarrel whatsoever with the maintenance costs) then like EVs there will be a high initial cost but it may work out all right. Let's give the current construction crews a chance and THEN decide how good they are and whether or not the costs are reasonable.

Andrew

--------------------
"Why is that we always break up our history by the .. the wars, not the years of peace?... Because it's exciting, and because on some level people like to see something big fall apart and explode from the inside out. And right now, John, we're that something."
- Micheal Garibaldi

Post Extras:

CyberGonzo
Newbie

Reged: 07/11/02
Posts: 11

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48650 - 01/31/03 04:34 PM (216.23.122.173)

But idle speculation is so much fun!

--------------------
"Early to rise, and early to bed, makes a man healthy, wealthy, and dead."

----------------
CyberGonzo

Post Extras:

Moraelin
Sergeant

Reged: 08/05/02
Posts: 304

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48651 - 01/31/03 04:41 PM (217.225.106.103)

Nosat, you'll have to realize though that the $23,000 per nev day for motorized inf are _mobilization_ costs, _not_ normal upkeep costs. Normal upkeep costs are more like $20,000 per nev-month, if I remember right, which is to say some 666 per nev-day. Plus the individual salaries, which adds quite a bit, and multiplied by your military maintenance modifier, but it's still nowhere _near_ what you're saying there. (And btw, foot infantry is a lot cheaper for maintenance, and just as good for hiding in a hole.)

Add to the fact that the old infantry was not just building, it at least served as a speed-bump, and a very effective one. I can personally testify what it was like to spend over 3 hours hunting for the last infantry platoon, and gave up in the end. And they actually stood a good chance of killing a mech, if said mech walked into an ambush. Well, until they started routing anyway.

But either way, you were getting more for those money than just builders. So it's not really a case of "oh, I was paying 1,000 for 2.8 BP a day, now it's 20,000 for 25 BP a day, so it's fair." You're really getting a lot less bang per buck there. You're getting less BP per buck and no defense from them either.

Now in all fairness, I'm not sure about 10 times less costs. That's probably too much to ask for. But I'd like to see those costs cut down at least by a factor of 3. (Incidentally, since infantry can't build anymore and routs, their upkeep should go down too. There's nothing more to justify its daily cost being on par with the heavy tracked vehicles.)

Not sure I can say I'll stop donating because of that, though, since I had already stopped donating anyway because of other issues. E.g., Randy's and WWS comments along the lines of "it's not too much to ask that you play the damn game at least once in a while" when talking about peaceful manufacturing empires and the morale cuts, ranked up there with a slap in the face. Although the morale cuts themselves, I can live with, and are not that big a deal as such, that kind of a way to put it... was really uncalled for. E.g., the Nemesis, a level _3_ munchkin mech with bogus weapons thrown into a level _1_ game. Figured that if Neveron's gonna stoop _that_ low to catter to the paying cheaters, well, then I don't want to be counted among the paying cheaters any more.

--------------------
---
Moraelin - The proud member of the Idiots' Guild

Post Extras:

Stalker17
General

Reged: 06/24/02
Posts: 2581

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48654 - 01/31/03 05:00 PM (68.159.0.183)

CG, grow up!

ok let me explain my new building plan for building 100 CF buildings at moderate speed:

currently I have a little less than 2 battalions and 1 company of builders, its alot I know... I'm gonna use 2 batts for numbers, since that 1 company isn't going.

2 batts: 72 units
72 * 1900 = 136,800

ok my currently income is 144K / nevday, so with no inf my income will almost DOUBLE. I might go a few days without any builders and not build anything just to get some extra cash, maybe to buy the builders and some EV's too.

ok, now the plan - 4x level 4 crew w/4 EVs

It WILL take a little while to set up (saving up of cash, etc) but

so the crews will costs 20 million
plus 16 EVs at 6 mil costs 96 million, but I am ok building with 2 per crew for a while (48 million).

so while building the 4 res that'll be 100 BP without crews, 140 BP with 2 EVs per crew and 180 BP with 4 EVs per crew. the res are 1000 BP (combined)

that's being done in less than 1 RL day!

(45 BP progress/nevday on a 250 BP building) for speciatly buildings, well that'll take a while, but when I get some more money I'm gonna get a level 5 crwe and attach 4 EVs to it for 120 BP, Comms will be finished in like half a day! Maybe I'll get a fifth EV so 100 CF research buildings get finished in exactly 1 RL day.

--------------------
"Insanity is just another word for true creativity"

da SEXY Stalker17, out

Post Extras:

TheDeadlyShoe
Lieutenant Colonel

Reged: 06/22/02
Posts: 1621
Loc: Redmond, WA

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48668 - 01/31/03 05:48 PM (4.40.153.191)

Actually its 15000/month/foot, 30000/month/moto 45000/month/jump, plus 50*28/day for infantry.

Or, 1400 + 500*1 for foot, 2 foor moto, 3 for jump.

Crews are going to be slightly cheaper than infantry with EVs, but since they dont have any defence capability, i'd have to agree that costs should be reduced. (Def not by a factor of 3, or even 2.)

Also, building will be more expensive for EV-Empires.

--------------------
Shoe for the NSI

Post Extras:

anderclayton
Captain

Reged: 08/05/02
Posts: 894

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48673 - 01/31/03 06:03 PM (208.186.188.150)

Ummm...

I think it will be a self limiting sort of thing. New empires aren't going to be able to afford the prices (or at least the building will be so freaking slow that it will be inane). With these prices, building slows down incredibly for new members and costs prohibit pretty much everything.

How astonishingly inane.

Ander

Post Extras:

TheDeadlyShoe
Lieutenant Colonel

Reged: 06/22/02
Posts: 1621
Loc: Redmond, WA

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48674 - 01/31/03 06:07 PM (4.40.153.191)

Now if you worked the math you'd see that is not the case...but oh well. (3 level 2 crews: 1.5 mill. What's a lance of ar-f cost? About that.... and same BP.)

--------------------
Shoe for the NSI

Post Extras:

anderclayton
Captain

Reged: 08/05/02
Posts: 894

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48675 - 01/31/03 06:10 PM (208.186.188.150)

Guys with shovels that cost the same as the guys trained with guns? Basically the same thing with less abilities and more cost and a really crappy, crappy, crappy, crappy rate for starting players. Calculate out how long you would take to get going with starting money (and note that the level 1's virtually guarantee that *any* new member won't be getting interested in the game from that marvelous building rate).

Not fun stuff, crazy to start with definiitely and aside from the fact that they won't run away (which is a stupid new rule anyhow) at the first opportunity aren't any improvement over AR-F's.

Ander

Post Extras:

anderclayton
Captain

Reged: 08/05/02
Posts: 894

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48677 - 01/31/03 06:14 PM (208.186.188.150)

Only one crew per building.

Which means you aren't recouping your investment for the building for days and days at the low levels. Really sucks for a low level. Hardcore. It means that you can only build maybe a few buildings in the first week. It slows down the biulding arc incredibly for beginning players.

Ander

Post Extras:

Cool_Breeze
Recruit

Reged: 01/16/03
Posts: 38

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48682 - 01/31/03 07:11 PM (66.222.116.133)

Surprise, surprise. Something else that some players will need to spend get DP to get more money to support there empires. Great job Randy and WS, you both must be wanting more money again. I guess the morale "fix" was not good enough. I know private contractors that would build roads or buildings cheaper than that. Even BattleTech has cheaper costs with better times. But of course this is not Battletech and try as hard as the admins have tried to make morale, this is not real life. This is NeverLife.

Post Extras:

Moraelin
Sergeant

Reged: 08/05/02
Posts: 304

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48700 - 01/31/03 11:39 PM (80.134.236.193)

Post Extras:

TheDeadlyShoe
Lieutenant Colonel

Reged: 06/22/02
Posts: 1621
Loc: Redmond, WA

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48701 - 02/01/03 12:04 AM (4.40.153.191)

TDS, you're still not addressing my main point, namely that infantry used to at least also have guns and act as a speed bump. Used to. Try any maths you will, you're trying to convince me that paying the same price for guys with shovels as for trained guys with missiles is some sort of advantage.
>Infantry are NOT effective speed bumps.
>Crews cost a lot less than any kind of well equipped & trained inf.

Then there's that stupidity about only 1 crew per building. And that is a bigger problem than even the upkeep. Basically I'm getting less flexibility, which again translates into less BP per buck.

>You can easily get crews enough to construct any building
>in a short period of time. And the upkeep is less. Less BP
>per buck. Dur.

Previously I could move all that infantry and a battallion of EV's into a zone, if I wanted to build a TC. In fact, that _is_ how I built my TC. Or even for lesser projects, I could balance stuff like ok, with this much infantry, I can build 8 Residentials here in the same time as I build 2 Commercials there, so they stay balanced. Or I could move the two together and build one Research Complex instead.

>If you think (Whoa) a little it's still easy to do this.

With this new rule, I'm supposed to do... what? Keep one set of crews for building residentials, another set for building commercials, a third set for building RC's, and yet another construction crew which has some chance to build a TC in less than a RL year? That's stupid.

>*sigh*.... It's also stupid that our military infantry are recruited exclusively from the construction market. And um, it would take a crew that has less than 60 BP to take a RL year for a TC. A level 6 would take a long time, but doable. A Level 7 would do it in 20 days, and the cost is pretty low relative to the $1 bill cost of a TC.

ANDERCLAYTON: Level 2 crew cost about the same-per-BP as infantry do now ( or at least as they did before the AR-F market crashed big-time due to this announcement). And. When the *heck* have AR-Fs been 'guys trained with guns'?
If we wanna get into training costs it would take a lot more moolah, and trained AR-F is useless in combat. Untrained AR-F is worse than useless. THey might as well be clubs.

--------------------
Shoe for the NSI

Edited by TheDeadlyShoe (02/01/03 12:11 AM)

Post Extras:

banijn
Recruit

Reged: 11/25/02
Posts: 48
Loc: Holland

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48706 - 02/01/03 12:26 AM (62.59.137.207)

And what about Infantry! There will be no use for them now (maybe in the support lance, as guard of my missile launchers.)
And now that we are talking about this, say i have got a mixed company:
lance 1: 4 vehicles lance 2 and 3 are infantry lances.
now i want to retool them to say
lance 1 and 2 vehicles and lance 3: 2 missile units and 2 jump platoons.
There goes my military reputation! breaking up lances.(stuppid rule by the way.)

Post Extras:

TheDeadlyShoe
Lieutenant Colonel

Reged: 06/22/02
Posts: 1621
Loc: Redmond, WA

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48709 - 02/01/03 12:33 AM (4.40.153.191)

it doesnt hurt rep to break up companies...Heh.

If you have rep problems with an infantryman youc ould just fire the CO, or throw him in an area. He he.

but in any case infantryw ill get a complete overhaul sometime after crews are done.

--------------------
Shoe for the NSI

Post Extras:

Moraelin
Sergeant

Reged: 08/05/02
Posts: 304

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48718 - 02/01/03 01:52 AM (217.83.139.150)

Post Extras:

Krait
Lieutenant Colonel

Reged: 06/22/02
Posts: 1639
Loc: Krautland

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48719 - 02/01/03 02:15 AM (172.186.63.201)

Well its not like infantry wont exist anymore. It just won't build anymore. You can still entertain inf if you so choose. You will just need something else to actually do your building.

I agree the prices need adjustment though, and in my opinion the concept does too. For one we need 450 BP crews, because every max building is a multiple of 450 BP, thus that would allow to build those without waste of BP. Also I think that the larger crew should require a certain amount of EVs to function properly. I was thinking about 1/4th of the BP should be provided by EVs. To offset that requirement for EVs, the price should be reduced somewhat (those EVs have a value themselves).
Here is a list of my idea:

crew lvl: Crew BP: required EVs: Price:(Price with EVs @ 6 mil)
1 1 0 100,000
2 5 0 500,000
3 10 0 2,000,000
4 25 1 3,000,000(9 mil)
5 100 5 15,000,000(45 mil)
6 225 10 55,000,000(115 mil)
7 450 20 130,000,000(250 mil)
8 1000 50 275,000,000(575 mil)
9 5000 250 2,500,000,000(4 bil)

All of those prices are somewhat cheaper than a work force made up entirely of EVs. Still substantially larger than for a workforce of infantry only, but I hope that difference will be offset by cheaper maintenance (which I will leave to others to talk about).
If EVs were a requirement, the things wouldn't lose all their value when this gets implemented though and the conversion would be very easy (Randy would just have to disband every EV in existance, and from the armory they can be formed into work crews.)

Lata
Krait

Post Extras:

anderclayton
Captain

Reged: 08/05/02
Posts: 894

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48720 - 02/01/03 03:10 AM (208.186.188.129)

I wasn't addressing costs. I was addressing speed.

Are you actually reading before you jot off an answer?

Level 2's are pretty harsh to be building with at all for anyone. Not because they cost a lot but because it will take forever to build things. You can only have one on a building so when you are starting an empire you are going to be taking *forever* for your first 150 BP Commercial.

If you worked the math.... Yadayadayada. You seem to be in such a hurry to jump on the bandwagon that you aren't actually listening to what people are saying.

Anyhow, *working the math here*

To get your first building... Assuming that you are using a level 2 crew... It will take 37.5 nevdays (38 because you have to round up--you will always lose the rounds with this method too) to construct your first Commercial. Yep you could hire multiple crews but that would be essentially pointless.

Maybe it would be better to hire level threes? Well... Then it takes essentially 15 nevdays to get your first commercials (and after that you lose five points every residential you build).

The way the game works, things don't get going until you get that commercial built.

Then after you get that commercial built, you are going to have to either hire more crews or build the residentials in series. Yep you are going to be able to hire more eventually (in a few days of getting cash--until you get the first commercial built though you aren't getting much...) but building is going to be slow so your growth is also going to be slow.

Work through the numbers for a starting empire. It is going to be a serious pain in the butt and you drop the round-downs left and right (and in the beginning those rounds make oodles of difference).

While the current system has had some problems for newbies, a system where you don't even really start doing anything at all for around the first week is going to be a killer. At least with the current system you could accelerate growth by buying more builders....

Ander

Post Extras:

Fenris
Private

Reged: 09/04/02
Posts: 57

My Cost Report

#48723 - 02/01/03 03:52 AM (172.190.201.30)

Let's see. What is this change gonna cost me?

30 50CF Factories(worthless because of the changes, my inf-producers are worthless now that the market has all but bottomed out)

$40 million Nev

72 inf platoons. I have 2 batts of builders, half of which I paid 6k/wep.

So, 72 x 280k

20.16 million

and, 32 * 28 * 6k

5.376 million

Now for the cost of Crews to replace:

200 BP.

40 Million, if I go for 10/25BP crews
50 million if I go for 50 BP crews

Grand total:

40 + 20 + 5 + 40 = ~95 million Nev.

I just lost 100 million nev because of the new changes. I can't even sell back my inf weps, cause the're WORTHLESS now!

Let's see. My emp makes ~3 million a day. So 1 RL month of income. Of course, the Admin wants me to be impatient, and buy DP from them, so I can do it faster.

Well, you know what, that's 20 DP! 20 bucks because they want to make some stupid change that hurts the players.

Look, I don't have the deepest pockets, I have donated before, and I just can't see why everyone has got to pay for the half-baked changes that admin is making.

Post Extras:

GoatFeathers
Newbie

Reged: 01/30/03
Posts: 4

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48724 - 02/01/03 04:57 AM (65.81.152.246)

With all due respect, it looks like someone just pulled these numbers out of their @$$. It have not been here that long so if the rules are going to change with out 1) a justification for the rule change and 2) example of how the rule changes will effect game play, I'm going to cut bait and fish somewhere else.

I don't want to leave. I've enjoyed the game itself and the players here have been great. But I will not stand by and let King Randy dictate changes without a better justification than "it seemed like a good idea at the time".

-Goat

Post Extras:

Moraelin
Sergeant

Reged: 08/05/02
Posts: 304

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48726 - 02/01/03 05:05 AM (217.83.139.150)

Well, that's pretty much my whole problem: the maintenance costs seem way out of whack. Either those maintenance costs are to be seriously reduced, or the BP and EV quota per level is in for a serious overhaul, or both.

And I see by your list that you're getting in the same direction. My own version of the list would be more like:

code:

Level  BP  Max.EV  BP+EV          Cost     Maint

1       5       1     10       100,000       300

2      15       2     25       300,000     1,000

3      30       4     50     1,000,000     3,000

4      60       6     90     3,000,000    10,000

5     100      10    150    10,000,000    30,000

6     225      25    300    30,000,000   100,000

7     600      60    900   100,000,000   300,000

8    1000     100   1500   300,000,000 1,000,000

9    2500     300   4000 1,000,000,000 3,000,000

Note how they match the BP costs far better IMHO (plus leave a lot more room to fiddle with the number of EV's attached, so you can get a better match), and give new empires _some_ chance at building stuff too. A level 1 crew in that list without any EV attached (because honestly, a freshly started level 0 won't be able to afford an EV anyway) will still build that initial commercial in 3 RL days, and a level 2 crew will get a small commercial built in 1 RL day.

Other than that... Sure, you're right, I can still keep the infantry around. In fact, that's what I was planning to do anyway. The real issue was just that, well, it seems silly to pay more maintenance for a bunch of guys with shovels, than I'm paying for the same number of guys with SRM's. That's all I was trying to say.

The initial buying costs and/or the EV's, well, actually that's the least important part for me. I can live with that. I already have a battallion of EV's hanging around since that TC was finished. (And for whoever thinks the current price of 6 mil nev$ is high, they were bought back when an EV used to cost 25 mil nev$ or 2 DP.)

--------------------
---
Moraelin - The proud member of the Idiots' Guild

Post Extras:

Stalker17
General

Reged: 06/24/02
Posts: 2581

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48728 - 02/01/03 05:26 AM (68.159.0.183)

*claps for moraelin's table*

very good!

a few points supporting it:

1) as it is now the numbers of EV's gets sorta unporportional to the amount of BP the crew is producing, at the high level crews (7 EVs won't make much difference to a level 7 crew)

2) We'll actually be able to afford the initial cost easier. now I just can't shell out that much cash initially to get the crews I need

3) the newbs can build at ok speed with their level 1-2 crews, medium empires can use the level 3-5 crews and large empire can use level 5-6 crews (for those 150CF buildings). level 7-8 crews can build a TC in a ok length of time. right now randy's table is hard on newbs and, and not really easy on the large empires.

--------------------
"Insanity is just another word for true creativity"

da SEXY Stalker17, out

Post Extras:

TxHotrice
Corporal

Reged: 01/10/03
Posts: 156
Loc: Dallas,TX

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48752 - 02/01/03 08:11 AM (66.169.220.82)

Thats the best idea I have heard yet, amidst all of this bickering.

--------------------
F is for fire burn down the city
U is for uranium...bomb
N is for no survivors

Post Extras:

TheDeadlyShoe
Lieutenant Colonel

Reged: 06/22/02
Posts: 1621
Loc: Redmond, WA

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48765 - 02/01/03 10:39 AM (4.40.153.191)

That after the routing stupidity, infantry became useless as speed bumps, is another thing. But again, they used to be _very_ effective speed bumps. I have personally searched through heavily irregular terrain and heavy woods for infantry before. If you never had to spend hours doing that, count yourself lucky, but it used to take bloody ages to find those guys.

>Oh, but I did. Damn things. That's why I LW with Ravens now. Heh.

You also seem to have a fixation about AR-F. Now it's not the worst fetish to have, but that's not what everyone else was using. Forget about AR-F. SRM infantry could and did kill mechs, and flamer jumpers could really shut down a mech ASAP. Ask some people who walked into such trap arenas. And having to go down into a hole to eliminate PL-F was not something most people did for fun, either. One good back shot or head shot from them could cripple or destroy even assaults.

>If you go beyond AR infantry the Costs of infantry raise dramatically. Personally i use mostly FL-M and MG-M. However since MOST people have a fixation on AR-F as builders, its what I use for calculations.

>Yeah, I lost an Atlas to an inf that rolled 4 12s in a row. Heh.

Infantry actually used to be damn useful for defense, until apparently Randy and WWS decided that they might as well bend over all the way and grab their ankles in their quest to satisfy the paying cheaters. I suppose when someone pays for a Nemesis or STR-WIE, they don't want to waste time hunting down defenders, or god forbid, actually have any chance in heck of losing a battle. For that kind of money, might as well give them a "take over this zone now" button, guaranteed to always succeed, and spare them any other effort.

>Inf ARE still damn useful. ATM they wont be wortht heir maintenance cost by a long shot, but whenever I shipped my inf into a new zone I always placed my infantry in clusters along the zone edge. Nothing like getting hit by a bunch of flamers to welcome an attacker to a zone. If you have STR (Meh.) or NEM (GAH!!) problems.. Large numbers of Towers or high-speed high-firepower units is what its going to take..

KRAIT:

I agree the prices need adjustment though, and in my opinion the concept does too. For one we need 450 BP crews, because every max building is a multiple of 450 BP, thus that would allow to build those without waste of BP. Also I think that the larger crew should require a certain amount of EVs to function properly. I was thinking about 1/4th of the BP should be provided by EVs. To offset that requirement for EVs, the price should be reduced somewhat (those EVs have a value themselves).

>After fiddling with the numbers a little I discovered that a level 4 crew with 4 EVs is, yknow, 45 BP. Which works out to a 150cf w/ Baseement res in exactly 1 RLDay. If you want to build comms at the same time, have 1 crew per comm and .5 crews per residential, then they will get done in 2 RLDays at the same time. Tho, a pure 450 BP crew might be nice.

All of those prices are somewhat cheaper than a work force made up entirely of EVs. Still substantially larger than for a workforce of infantry only, but I hope that difference will be offset by cheaper maintenance (which I will leave to others to talk about).
If EVs were a requirement, the things wouldn't lose all their value when this gets implemented though and the conversion would be very easy (Randy would just have to disband every EV in existance, and from the armory they can be formed into work crews.)

> I'm not sure if EVs are still units even under the 'current' system...good question.

--------------------
Shoe for the NSI

Post Extras:

TheDeadlyShoe
Lieutenant Colonel

Reged: 06/22/02
Posts: 1621
Loc: Redmond, WA

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48766 - 02/01/03 10:53 AM (4.40.153.191)

ANDERCLAYTON.
I wasn't addressing costs. I was addressing speed.

>A Valid concern. Also addressed.

Are you actually reading before you jot off an answer?

>Are you? You put in a reply questioning me on something I had answered on a previous post.

Level 2's are pretty harsh to be building with at all for anyone. Not because they cost a lot but because it will take forever to build things. You can only have one on a building so when you are starting an empire you are going to be taking *forever* for your first 150 BP Commercial.

>You start with AR-F now, presumably to help build. No reason why you cant start with equivalent Crews instead. ( 3 level 2s = 12 BP.)

If you worked the math.... Yadayadayada. You seem to be in such a hurry to jump on the bandwagon that you aren't actually listening to what people are saying.

>Riiiiiight.

Anyhow, *working the math here*

To get your first building... Assuming that you are using a level 2 crew... It will take 37.5 nevdays (38 because you have to round up--you will always lose the rounds with this method too) to construct your first Commercial. Yep you could hire multiple crews but that would be essentially pointless.

>Personally I build a 25 and a 10 Commercial and then let the empire sit for a month. It's like cooking.

Othe possiblity is that you could start...other buildings... its not like a res costs anyone near what even a newbie earns in a RLDay.

Maybe it would be better to hire level threes? Well... Then it takes essentially 15 nevdays to get your first commercials (and after that you lose five points every residential you build).

>You DO realize that commercials function while partially built.

The way the game works, things don't get going until you get that commercial built.

>Except for that thing that provides 80% of small empire income, the S-E-S. (Which needs changes- wait for an upcoming proposal by Bialec to hear thoughts on that though.)

Then after you get that commercial built, you are going to have to either hire more crews or build the residentials in series. Yep you are going to be able to hire more eventually (in a few days of getting cash--until you get the first commercial built though you aren't getting much...) but building is going to be slow so your growth is also going to be slow.

Work through the numbers for a starting empire. It is going to be a serious pain in the butt and you drop the round-downs left and right (and in the beginning those rounds make oodles of difference).

While the current system has had some problems for newbies, a system where you don't even really start doing anything at all for around the first week is going to be a killer. At least with the current system you could accelerate growth by buying more builders....

>There is about zilch reason why you cant under the new system.

MORAELIN:

Well, that's pretty much my whole problem: the maintenance costs seem way out of whack. Either those maintenance costs are to be seriously reduced, or the BP and EV quota per level is in for a serious overhaul, or both.

>A.) A reduction of about 30% wouldnt hurt. ANything more than that makes this ludicrously cheaper than inf.
>B.) I think Randy was thinking about that anyways, but Yah. A less Linear EV-System. However 4 EVs seems fine for a level 4. It's just at the higher levels that it gets out of whack.

And I see by your list that you're getting in the same direction. My own version of the list would be more like:

code:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Level BP Max.EV BP+EV Cost Maint
1 5 1 10 100,000 300
2 15 2 25 300,000 1,000
3 30 4 50 1,000,000 3,000
4 60 6 90 3,000,000 10,000
5 100 10 150 10,000,000 30,000
6 225 25 300 30,000,000 100,000
7 600 60 900 100,000,000 300,000
8 1000 100 1500 300,000,000 1,000,000
9 2500 300 4000 1,000,000,000 3,000,000

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Actually theyre ludicrous cheap, not matching, but oh well. JESUS. You would be paying less than...
Current cost ~700/bp level 1: 300/5 = 60/bp. Less than a TENTH the current AR-F building cost. Let alone jump or moto.
If the current balance is good why do you want to break it?

>In any case. Up the maintenance costs at low levels....alot....and it'll be fine. The way it scales at high levels is about right. ( you always pay big-time for Quality on nev.) Actually, the scaling is about perfect. Just up that inital maintenance. Level 1s should be cheapest but not that cheap.

>The level 9 is a little more realistic than the current 5000 BP monster. Noone needs that thing. Even madman couldnt support more than a very few of those.

Note how they match the BP costs far better IMHO (plus leave a lot more room to fiddle with the number of EV's attached, so you can get a better match), and give new empires _some_ chance at building stuff too. A level 1 crew in that list without any EV attached (because honestly, a freshly started level 0 won't be able to afford an EV anyway) will still build that initial commercial in 3 RL days, and a level 2 crew will get a small commercial built in 1 RL day.

Other than that... Sure, you're right, I can still keep the infantry around. In fact, that's what I was planning to do anyway. The real issue was just that, well, it seems silly to pay more maintenance for a bunch of guys with shovels, than I'm paying for the same number of guys with SRM's. That's all I was trying to say.

>I agreed. But, I believe the solution is not to ludicrously reduce crew maintenance, but rather are more reasoned, calmer reduction increw maintenance with ludicrous reduction in inf costs (only possible if the 'salary' cost is lowered.)

The initial buying costs and/or the EV's, well, actually that's the least important part for me. I can live with that. I already have a battallion of EV's hanging around since that TC was finished. (And for whoever thinks the current price of 6 mil nev$ is high, they were bought back when an EV used to cost 25 mil nev$ or 2 DP.)

>Back in the day....

--------------------
Shoe for the NSI

Post Extras:

TheDeadlyShoe
Lieutenant Colonel

Reged: 06/22/02
Posts: 1621
Loc: Redmond, WA

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48767 - 02/01/03 11:12 AM (4.40.153.191)

FENRIS:
That's why you will be able to convert inf-->crews...
GOATFEATHERS:
It didnt make much sense that we seemingly recruited every soldier from the construction industry, either. Heh.

I know I have seen complaints that we should use 'guys with shovels' instead of 'guys with guns' ever since I joined nev. Now that we are getting that people...blah. Afraid of change! Afraid of change!

--------------------
Shoe for the NSI

Post Extras:

Moraelin
Sergeant

Reged: 08/05/02
Posts: 304

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48778 - 02/01/03 11:52 AM (217.83.134.150)

In reply to:

Personally I build a 25 and a 10 Commercial and then let the empire sit for a month. It's like cooking.

Are you at least listening what you're saying here? Step out of the Randy's fanboy role for a moment, and think about what you just wrote.

So the way to start "playing" the game is to _not_ play for a whole month? That's got to be the most screwed up view of computer gaming I've ever heard.

Yes, that's the whole problem we've been talking about. No really, thanks for describing it so perfectly. That all anyone joining the game (and a lot of people who aren't just starting) is to expect is... doing _nothing_ for extended periods of time.

(Unless, of course, they reach for the Visa card.)

I mean, Jesus Christ, take your pick of any commercial MMORPG. Pick the one you think has the slowest growth for a new player. Chances are you'll still have _something_ to do when you join. You can go fight a few rats, or chop a few trees, or _something_ at all. Here I'm expect to... what? Sit and twiddle my thumbs for a month?

That's not even playing a game, it's just plain old stupid. If I wanted to do nothing at all, I can do that without being on Neveron at all.

As for those prices in my proposed table, as I've said in another thread, feel free to shift the price columns one position up. That would put the 5 CF from a level 1 on par upkeep-wise with an EV, and it steadily gets more expensive from there.

--------------------
---
Moraelin - The proud member of the Idiots' Guild

Post Extras:

fwogman
Newbie

Reged: 12/03/02
Posts: 23

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48787 - 02/01/03 12:55 PM (69.3.221.121)

another bad thing about this is that it totally destroys the infantry market
now all the foot infantry we build will not sell for anything
this will hurt small empirers alot

Post Extras:

Flameseeker
Major

Reged: 07/18/02
Posts: 1304

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48791 - 02/01/03 01:10 PM (66.82.9.28)

I......can't......stand it......anymore! Countergod, you make me sick. Do you want to be the end of Nev over builder costs? Nev needs money from somewhere, it doesn't grow on trees. If you can't bother to work the math out like Shoe kindly did, then please don't post. I don't donate, but I respect the people who do. They are providing a very fun game. You, are complaining, that since you are donating to get ahead in a free game, because your self-esteem is so low you have to win at something, and now you get mad because the creator decides to do something, well, creative. I would like to propose a new poll.

--------------------
Cpt. Searo "Ace" Ficha of the Darkfire Legionnaires

Post Extras:

Moraelin
Sergeant

Reged: 08/05/02
Posts: 304

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48809 - 02/01/03 03:16 PM (217.83.134.150)

Nev needs the money from somewhere, yes, but lately it's been IMHO pushing too hard to get that money. That's the way this particular donor feels about it. There's a fine line between voluntarily supporting a small team of developpers trying to make a free game, and feeling like it's turning into a "you're not getting anywhere unless you pay up" kind of a scam. Of course, it is just my own view of it, and it may well be very wrong. But of course, I'll base my choice of whether to send more money on that subjective view. And, of course, you're 100% free to think otherwise.

That said, no offense, but... somehow, I just don't like the tone of this message and where it's getting at. Maybe I'm reading it all wrong, but it seems to boil down to no less than "shut up and keep paying up, so I can keep playing." And that's simply not your decision to make. What I do with my money, is _my_ decision, and what Countergod does with his money, is _his_ decision. We can of course talk about it, exchange views, suggestions, vote in a silly poll, etc, but you can not simply singlehandedly decide that someone else must shut up and keep paying your tab.

The only money decision that's rightfully yours to make is whether _you_ want to send Randy some money or not. Well, do you? Is Neveron (especially after the changes) good enough to be worth _your_ _own_ money? Well, go ahead and vote in the poll, if you think you have an answer either way. I thought that was what the poll was all about.

(Of course, if you vote that it's worth your money, it would be nice if you actually lived up to that vote sooner or later. It doesn't even have to be thousands or even hundreds. I'm sure Randy will appreciate even 5 bucks, if that's how much you can afford, and again if you indeed think Neveron is worth paying for. Just, you know, to show that you actually meant it.)

--------------------
---
Moraelin - The proud member of the Idiots' Guild

Post Extras:

anderclayton
Captain

Reged: 08/05/02
Posts: 894

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48816 - 02/01/03 04:11 PM (208.186.188.141)

">You DO realize that commercials function while partially built. "

Actually they don't for the first one. Kinda odd little tricky bit but true.

Ander

Post Extras:

anderclayton
Captain

Reged: 08/05/02
Posts: 894

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48821 - 02/01/03 04:34 PM (208.186.188.141)

">Are you? You put in a reply questioning me on something I had answered on a previous post. "

Feel free to point out the post. Tough to do.

[It is kinda tough to read your replies because you are putting the carrot: "<" in the opposite place it would be if you were replying ot an e-mail message btw]

"You start with AR-F now, presumably to help build. No reason why you cant start with equivalent Crews instead. ( 3 level 2s = 12 BP.) "

What exactly would those level 2's be building? Like I said in the other post, you don't get credit for building a commercial until you get the first one built. It is a bit of a glitch but maybe you could call it realism (you are bound to do it anyhow so why not?)

You are only going to be building four BP's per turn (on any one building) with any level 2. Ever. Which means incredibly slow going until you ramp up to level...???? Right now you can build whole buildings eventually in a daychange in relatively short order. With the new system you aren't going to be able to do that with a versitile workforce (with every building). Yep you can hire more crews but then you are stuck paying for useless crews rather frequently (either when waiting for enough cash to build every building at once or waiting for enough cash to build the next big thing).

"Othe possiblity is that you could start...other buildings... its not like a res costs anyone near what even a newbie earns in a RLDay. "

Which means buying other crews. Buying a whole bunch of extra crews costs a bunch of money which you essentially aren't going to be getting back. Once you get past the utility of them at the outset, you aren't going to be able to use that many so they are just eating up your resources.

">There is about zilch reason why you cant under the new system. "

Again you are playing the "I can't hear you! My ears are plugged!" game. Zilch reason? You can't add more builders to an existing project in the new system. You can only buy extra buiders to work on more projects. One crew per building, remember? Acceleration on an existing project can't happen so you are stuck playing with the blocks you started playing with until you are finished. It makes for long projects.

Ander

Post Extras:

anderclayton
Captain

Reged: 08/05/02
Posts: 894

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48822 - 02/01/03 04:38 PM (208.186.188.141)

"So the way to start "playing" the game is to _not_ play for a whole month? That's got to be the most screwed up view of computer gaming I've ever heard."

Seriously, it might very well be the way to go with the game but it is a piss poor way to attract new players. Insanely piss poor.

Ander

Post Extras:

Kit_fox
Colonel

Reged: 09/16/02
Posts: 3054

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48831 - 02/01/03 05:11 PM (64.12.105.162)

I don't think I would have a problem with the construction crews if they made one small change. Instead of BP per day it should be CFs per day. It may take a little number reworking, but it stops people from having their growth slowed down to a crawl.

--------------------
_____

The RNG mugged me in a dark street, killed my dog, and cancled Christmas.

When the winds of change blow hard enough the most trivial of things can become deadly projectials.

Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be evil.

Post Extras:

davion76
Lieutenant Colonel

Reged: 08/07/02
Posts: 1605
Loc: Ridgecrest CA, USA

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48832 - 02/01/03 05:15 PM (12.219.245.15)

There needs to be a way for newbie to actually play, maybe one inf are modified, there can be a battle tutorial where you can earn a little cash for fighting and risking your troops, note that this tutorial should only net a little cash and have a limited number of uses... Maybe even get to dink with a mech in the later tutorials. Maybe play it off as if you were a mech fighting in "someone's" war on the dark side of nev. Actually thinking of that I would love something like that to earn a LITTLE extra cash.

Post Extras:

Moraelin
Sergeant

Reged: 08/05/02
Posts: 304

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48834 - 02/01/03 05:21 PM (217.83.134.150)

In reply to:

I don't think I would have a problem with the construction crews if they made one small change. Instead of BP per day it should be CFs per day.

Hmm... now that is one idea, though I'm not sure whether it would work that well, or not. It would certainly throw the current balance off hook. Currently at the same CF, a residential costs half the cost of a commercial, and a fifth of the cost of a research building. If building stuff happened on CF instead of BP, basically a residential would cost the exact same as a commercial, and the exact same as a research complex. I can't say whether that's good or bad, just that, well, it seems to be a slightly bigger change than just the crew costs.

--------------------
---
Moraelin - The proud member of the Idiots' Guild

Post Extras:

person
Sergeant

Reged: 01/23/03
Posts: 347

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48844 - 02/01/03 06:07 PM (65.57.11.124)

I agree that the prices are a BIT high, but i think we are still getting worked up too soon, we don't even know how the whole cons. crew thing will work out, and the changes in infantry might be worth it.

--------------------

Post Extras:

anderclayton
Captain

Reged: 08/05/02
Posts: 894

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48851 - 02/01/03 07:43 PM (208.186.188.129)

The problem is that the time to discuss thing is when they are "proposed changes" rather than just "changes." Now would be the time to get worked up rather than later when people can just say "deal with it" or "it is more realistic."

Ander

Post Extras:

TheDeadlyShoe
Lieutenant Colonel

Reged: 06/22/02
Posts: 1621
Loc: Redmond, WA

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48874 - 02/02/03 12:07 AM (4.40.153.191)

It's too time consuming to read through it all. Heh. I give up

I talked it through with CG in chat and he's a little more calmed down about it. He had no idea that inf costs were already so ludicrous. So, I worked through the numbers again when we were doing that, and thats why I moderated to a 30-40% decrease. Leave CG alone eh ?

--------------------
Shoe for the NSI

Post Extras:

Vapor
Lieutenant

Reged: 11/15/02
Posts: 699
Loc: Guam

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48878 - 02/02/03 12:24 AM (202.128.69.122)

I think CounterGod's point (and a few others that I have seen) is that this will become a major set back for smaller empires. Larger empires will be able to make the switch without too much trouble, but smaller empires will be hurting. For example, it would cost my level 2 empire $87,000,000 to purchase the crews and EV's needed to have the same BP that I currently have. My empire has slightly over a quarter of that amount right now. Yes, disbanding my infantry will remove a large portion of my expenses, but the morale I would lose by doing so would make most of that effect pointless. Plus, I will be spending $72,000 every day on maintenance for the crews and EV's, which is not much less than I what I am paying right now for my infantry.

Ok, that's costs. Now for building speed. Those prices I quoted are for three level 4 crews, with EV's. I currently have 131 BP/nevday. Those 3 crews would give me 135 BP/nevday. That's 45 BP/nevday/crew. I couldn't even build a 25 CF, 4 level residential, with a basement in a nevday, anymore. It would take over 3 nevdays to build a commercial of the same size, and more than 8 nevdays to build a research facility. True, they will still get built in less than a real day, but each building will take longer to build. And if I suddenly have to constantly build 3 buildings at a time in order to keep my construction crews busy, I will be losing money even faster.

So basically, my level 2 empire will be, for all intents and purposes, crippled.

Personally, I don't see why Randy & Co. feel they have to change the construction rules. I am perfectly happy with them the way they are, and I don't think they need to be changed. I doubt they'll listen to me, though, and they will probably go through with this foolish notion of using construction crews.

As to the DP boycott that was proposed, I am not going to vote on that subject. Whether or not I continue to donate money is up to me, and me alone. I have donated in the past, and have been happy with the game so far. If this new idea is implemented, I will probably be hard-pressed to find a reason to donate again, though that will not be because someone has called for a DP boycott.

--------------------
"For those about to rock, we salute you." - AC DC

"The evil that can come, from the heart of a man, must be answered in kind 'till it disappears, and we're safe." - Kansas

Edited by Vapor (02/02/03 12:40 AM)

Post Extras:

Vapor
Lieutenant

Reged: 11/15/02
Posts: 699
Loc: Guam

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48882 - 02/02/03 12:52 AM (202.128.69.122)

In reply to:

>After fiddling with the numbers a little I discovered that a level 4 crew with 4 EVs is, yknow, 45 BP. Which works out to a 150cf w/ Baseement res in exactly 1 RLDay. If you want to build comms at the same time, have 1 crew per comm and .5 crews per residential, then they will get done in 2 RLDays at the same time. Tho, a pure 450 BP crew might be nice.

I'm not quite sure where you are getting .5 crews from, since as near as I can tell, you can't break up the crews, and can only use one crew per building under construction. Did I miss something?

--------------------
"For those about to rock, we salute you." - AC DC

"The evil that can come, from the heart of a man, must be answered in kind 'till it disappears, and we're safe." - Kansas

Post Extras:

Vapor
Lieutenant

Reged: 11/15/02
Posts: 699
Loc: Guam

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48883 - 02/02/03 01:03 AM (202.128.69.122)

I have never said I'd like to have guys with shovels, and whenever I have heard someone say it, I always laughed at them. If you ask me, the system works now, and doesn't need to be changed.

--------------------
"For those about to rock, we salute you." - AC DC

"The evil that can come, from the heart of a man, must be answered in kind 'till it disappears, and we're safe." - Kansas

Post Extras:

Vapor
Lieutenant

Reged: 11/15/02
Posts: 699
Loc: Guam

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48884 - 02/02/03 01:09 AM (202.128.69.122)

In reply to:

but in any case infantryw ill get a complete overhaul sometime after crews are done.

The key word being after. And knowing Randy & Co., noone will be told what the new infantry will be like until the changes are implemented, or just before they are implemented. By that time, everyone will have dumped their now practically useless infantry items on a severely depressed market and lost tons of money from the sales.

If Randy & Co. decide to go through with this foolish construction crew idea, it would be better to implement the infantry changes at the same time as the construction crews so that the infantry doesn't lose it's value completely.

--------------------
"For those about to rock, we salute you." - AC DC

"The evil that can come, from the heart of a man, must be answered in kind 'till it disappears, and we're safe." - Kansas

Post Extras:

Vapor
Lieutenant

Reged: 11/15/02
Posts: 699
Loc: Guam

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48885 - 02/02/03 01:13 AM (202.128.69.122)

In reply to:

If you could afford to buyt hat inf you can easily afford to buy EVs. Most empries CAN afford them. THey just dont want to.

I'm afraid this is not the case. I have two level 2 empires, and both of them would be extremely hard-pressed to purchase EV's. Both of them might be able to manage to buy one EV every RL week, though that would severely limit any other actions they might need to take (such as defend themselves from attacks).

--------------------
"For those about to rock, we salute you." - AC DC

"The evil that can come, from the heart of a man, must be answered in kind 'till it disappears, and we're safe." - Kansas

Post Extras:

TheDeadlyShoe
Lieutenant Colonel

Reged: 06/22/02
Posts: 1621
Loc: Redmond, WA

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48888 - 02/02/03 01:49 AM (4.40.153.191)

In reply to:

Ok, that's costs. Now for building speed. Those prices I quoted are for three level 4 crews, with EV's. I currently have 131 BP/nevday. Those 3 crews would give me 135 BP/nevday. That's 45 BP/nevday/crew. I couldn't even build a 25 CF, 4 level residential, with a basement in a nevday, anymore. It would take over 3 nevdays to build a commercial of the same size, and more than 8 nevdays to build a research facility. True, they will still get built in less than a real day, but each building will take longer to build. And if I suddenly have to constantly build 3 buildings at a time in order to keep my construction crews busy, I will be losing money even faster.

I'd like to say that no level 2 needs anywhere near that many BP. You are already outrstripping your building capability. Actually. The morale drop cancels out a lot of the cost drop, but not much. Utilizing mass infantry disbanding I ahve boosted several of my empires incomes by not inappreciable amounts.

When were you ever building a 25 cf 4 level residential in one nevday? You were, hopefully, always building them in groups. There is about zilch need for level 4 crews with EVs if all you want to construct is 25 CF structures. A level 2 with one EV could get a res done in a satisfactory time frame.

As to the .5 Bit, that's a RATIO. I could say 1 working on comm to every 2 working on res. This is how it works. Let's say you construct 10 buildings. Comms are 2x the BP of residentials. Figure that you have 6 crews, and you are constructing 8 res and 2 comms. 2 crews work on comms, 4 on res. When the 4 on res are done with their first batch of res, the one working on the commercials are half done. With the 4 on the res finish their second batch, the ones working on comms are done. That's an example of a perfect, no BPloss situation.

FIgure the timeframe you want to construct in a building in is probably around 1 Real Day, since you login one day, do your stuff, log out, log in next day, etc.

Now let's say you are building 50 CF, about normal for a level 2 empire in my experience. That's 150 bp per res. So the target BP for a crew is 15 or more BP. The optimum solution is a level 3 crew with an EV (a level 4 would be overkill, while cheaper to hire, more expensive to maintain), which would set you back rougly 7 million. at a maintenance of 9000/nevday. (600/BP, cheaper than AR-F. Mind that without an EV it would be more expensive, which is why I advocate 30-40% drop.) Well, there you go.

About the EV cost. If you can afford to buy all that inf, you certainly couldve afforded some EVs. (not many though.) If there is one truism about nev its that you pay for quality.

--------------------
Shoe for the NSI

Post Extras:

Vapor
Lieutenant

Reged: 11/15/02
Posts: 699
Loc: Guam

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48892 - 02/02/03 02:07 AM (202.128.69.122)

In reply to:

When were you ever building a 25 cf 4 level residential in one nevday?

This was more a statement of construction speed, rather than the amount of buildings currently under construction in my empire. As to why I am building 25 CF buildings instead of 50 CF buildings, I have not yet completed the research for 50 CF buildings. Almost there, but not quite done, yet.

On the EV note again. (:p) I bought the infantry because I could afford to get them in large quantities. $420,000 per platoon for AR-F at the time that I bought them. That comes to $840,000 for 5.6 BP/day. Slightly more affordable than paying $6,000,000 for 5 BP. I had just begun converting to EV's a few days before the announcement of the change. I was expecting to be able to take a month or two to convert my infantry to EV's, thereby minimizing the morale loss I would suffer. However, if they do go through with this foolish notion of using construction crews (as it appears they will), I won't have the luxury of an extended period of time wherein I will be able to minimize my losses.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again (though I doubt anyone is listening to me

). Personally, I don't see why the current system needs to change. It works. It's worked for quite some time. It allows both lower level empires as well as the bigger empires to get done what they need to get done. And it provides something for every budget to use. Yes, it makes for some lag, and I can understand wanting to get rid of the lag. I have to ask, though, if it is really that much harder to simply change the way the update works now without throwing a bunch of new stuff (and the potential for more bugs) into the game?

--------------------
"For those about to rock, we salute you." - AC DC

"The evil that can come, from the heart of a man, must be answered in kind 'till it disappears, and we're safe." - Kansas

Post Extras:

TheDeadlyShoe
Lieutenant Colonel

Reged: 06/22/02
Posts: 1621
Loc: Redmond, WA

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48893 - 02/02/03 02:12 AM (4.40.153.191)

It probably is, heh, i fyou think about it. Have to count builders for every zone on nev, then calculate bp in every zone, then split amongst buildings..blahblah..... And hey, can you do your replies all in one post? it was damn annoying to reply to all that.

--------------------
Shoe for the NSI

Post Extras:

Vapor
Lieutenant

Reged: 11/15/02
Posts: 699
Loc: Guam

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48894 - 02/02/03 02:25 AM (202.128.69.122)

I probably could put all my replies in one post, but I can't guarantee it would have been coherent.

The new system, however, is still going to have to "count builders in every zone on nev, then calculate bp in every zone." The only difference would be how the BP get's divided amongst the buildings being constructed. That might even cause a little more lag since the server won't be able to just take a number (BP) and divide it by another number (buildings under construction), then apply the result to the current amount of construction already completed on the buildings.

Instead, the server will have to identify all construction crews in the zone, identify what level the crew is, identify how many (if any) EV's are working with that crew, tap into it's database to calculate how many BP each crew provides, then add the BP total for each crew to one of the buildings under construction. I wonder how many zones on Neveron have buildings currently under construction. Must be a helluva lot of them.

--------------------
"For those about to rock, we salute you." - AC DC

"The evil that can come, from the heart of a man, must be answered in kind 'till it disappears, and we're safe." - Kansas

Post Extras:

TheDeadlyShoe
Lieutenant Colonel

Reged: 06/22/02
Posts: 1621
Loc: Redmond, WA

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48895 - 02/02/03 02:27 AM (4.40.153.191)

Before it had to check how many soldiers were left in every unit. Actually, I presume the way it works now is that when a crew is assigned to a building it calculates a completion time, once, based on its BP, and then counts that down. If the builders change in some way it will recalculate. now that WOULD be a lot less laggy.

--------------------
Shoe for the NSI

Post Extras:

Vapor
Lieutenant

Reged: 11/15/02
Posts: 699
Loc: Guam

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48896 - 02/02/03 02:47 AM (202.128.69.122)

It would still have to check every zone in order to make sure that no changes had been made to the construction crews. If instead, each buildable zone had a variable that contained the current number of builders in the zone (military and civilian), and this variable was updated each time that number changed (new platoon in the zone, new civilian builders from recently completed residential building, etc.), all the server would have to do is retrieve that variable for the zone, calculate BP, and divide it amongst the buildings under construction. Maybe even include a yes/no toggle for the zone so that if the number of builders in the zone hasn't changed since the last daychange, the server doesn't even check the number of builders. It just uses the previous BP amount, and divides it amongs the buildings under construction.

I'm not saying any of these suggestions will be taken seriously, since Randy & Co. seem set on using construction crews. I'm just trying to figure out if there was another option to reduce lag without taking such a drastic step.

--------------------
"For those about to rock, we salute you." - AC DC

"The evil that can come, from the heart of a man, must be answered in kind 'till it disappears, and we're safe." - Kansas

Post Extras:

Moraelin
Sergeant

Reged: 08/05/02
Posts: 304

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48899 - 02/02/03 03:13 AM (217.225.97.197)

So if you think about it from a programmer point of view, the new system is actually _worse_.

If I was to optimize the old system, my instinctive first try would be to store one number per _zone_ with how many military BP's are in it. (Inf and EV's combined.) That doesn't change from one day to another. The only moments when it changes is when units are moved in and out of the area, so those are the only moments when you need to recalculate.

The fly in the ointment there are inf or EV units in transit to an area. (Including those returning from arenas.) Those are the _only_ zones where you have to recalculate, and at a wild guess there aren't that many. Even empires which are heavily active in the inf arenas, have maybe _one_ zone with inf in transit in any given nev-day. So I'd add a "transit" flag to each area (e.g., a single character: "y" or "n"). At day change or when the user goes to the buidings tab for a zone, the zones which have that flag will have their BP recalculated, and the flag is reset. The others, you don't even need to loop through them and check the flag, they can be excluded completely via a simple check in the SQL select's "where" clause.

If that's not done already, another thing to notice is that you only need to process anything at all in zones where something is being built. So let's also store the number of buildings under construction in a zone's record. This will only need to be updated when a new building is started, and when a building is finished. Zones where that number is zero, can again be skipped completely. But again, this is such an obvious thing, that I'd seriously suspect it's like that already.

So there you go. A simple and straightforward optimization which should fix about 90% of the construction-related lag, without needing such convoluted and unwieldy crew management, without crashing the inf weapons market, and without forcing people to restructure their whole workforce.

Now let's think about the new system. Even if you store a number per building, it's one per _building_ instead of one per _zone_. The only thing you "save" is the insignifficant cost of dividing total BP by the number of buildings, but that's several orders of magnitude cheaper than the extra database accesses, so it doesn't even start to matter.

(Though a better solution would be to go the other way around, get at the buildings from the crews table, instead of the other way around, in which case the number is already stored in the crew data. But given the relatively stupid "only one crew per building" restriction, I wouldn't be surprised if Randy's actual plan was to link it the other way around. But, since we'll never see the code, it's just a wild guess and may well be wrong.)

--------------------
---
Moraelin - The proud member of the Idiots' Guild

Post Extras:

Moraelin
Sergeant

Reged: 08/05/02
Posts: 304

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48902 - 02/02/03 03:18 AM (217.225.97.197)

Yeah, I too would be very interested where and how is he planning to get half a crew.

--------------------
---
Moraelin - The proud member of the Idiots' Guild

Post Extras:

Vapor
Lieutenant

Reged: 11/15/02
Posts: 699
Loc: Guam

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48905 - 02/02/03 03:29 AM (202.128.69.122)

He explained what he meant here.

--------------------
"For those about to rock, we salute you." - AC DC

"The evil that can come, from the heart of a man, must be answered in kind 'till it disappears, and we're safe." - Kansas

Post Extras:

anderclayton
Captain

Reged: 08/05/02
Posts: 894

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48913 - 02/02/03 03:42 AM (208.186.188.149)

The problem with calculating everything with EV's is that there is a limited EV market. With their new usefulness, in concept more people are going to want the things which in concept would drive the prices up. Regardless of all of that, at the current EV prices, it would be eight million, not seven million for a level three building crew (2 mill for the crew, 6 for the ev). It is, however, very doubtful that the EV prices are even going to be staying stable in the future.

Ander

Post Extras:

anderclayton
Captain

Reged: 08/05/02
Posts: 894

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48914 - 02/02/03 03:43 AM (208.186.188.149)

Which is what happens when you don't thread your comments. Yup replying to people in each portion of the thread makes more comments to look through but it also helps a person follow threads.

Ander

Post Extras:

Vapor
Lieutenant

Reged: 11/15/02
Posts: 699
Loc: Guam

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48915 - 02/02/03 03:47 AM (202.128.69.122)

I prefer to look at forums in threaded mode because it's easier for me to keep track of where each thread of the post is going, and I can reply to different threads easily. Some people prefer it flat. If I have the option, I will always go with it threaded, and if it makes it harder for some people to reply to me, I'm sorry, but you'll have to make do.

--------------------
"For those about to rock, we salute you." - AC DC

"The evil that can come, from the heart of a man, must be answered in kind 'till it disappears, and we're safe." - Kansas

Post Extras:

Moraelin
Sergeant

Reged: 08/05/02
Posts: 304

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48921 - 02/02/03 03:56 AM (217.225.97.197)

That's still more of a pain in the butt than the current system, though. What if I want to build a factory? How about a research center? Do I start doing perverse and unnatural tricks to simulate stuff like 0.33 of a crew or 0.20 of a crew?

And there are times when even that won't help, because I want a multiple, not a fraction.

--------------------
---
Moraelin - The proud member of the Idiots' Guild

Post Extras:

anderclayton
Captain

Reged: 08/05/02
Posts: 894

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48926 - 02/02/03 04:06 AM (208.186.188.143)

Multiples are easy (wait at multiple the number of nevdays). It is the fractions that are the pain in the butt.

Ander

Post Extras:

TheDeadlyShoe
Lieutenant Colonel

Reged: 06/22/02
Posts: 1621
Loc: Redmond, WA

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48940 - 02/02/03 05:18 AM (4.40.153.191)

In reply to:

It would still have to check every zone in order to make sure that no changes had been made to the construction crews. If instead, each buildable zone had a variable that contained the current number of builders in the zone (military and civilian), and this variable was updated each time that number changed (new platoon in the zone, new civilian builders from recently completed residential building, etc.), all the server would have to do is retrieve that variable for the zone, calculate BP, and divide it amongst the buildings under construction. Maybe even include a yes/no toggle for the zone so that if the number of builders in the zone hasn't changed since the last daychange, the server doesn't even check the number of builders. It just uses the previous BP amount, and divides it amongs the buildings under construction.

I'm not saying any of these suggestions will be taken seriously, since Randy & Co. seem set on using construction crews. I'm just trying to figure out if there was another option to reduce lag without taking such a drastic step.

Item the first: Civvie builders changes all the time. It still has to do calculation for every zone, in any case. With completion times it does NO calculation. It just waits till it gets done. Note that randy did say that CF would NOT be calculated on a running basis, except for when needed if the zone is attacked. The current system involves calculating CF, dividing BP amongst buildings, etc. what you mentioned. That IS what creates the lag. The goal is to do a system that DOESNT do that.

To clarify: A crew is assigned to a building. Once assigned a completion time is calculated. Nev then simply ticks that completion time down to zero. VERY simple. One calculation. You can calculate % done if needed later. (ie, zone attacked, crew changed.) The only need to recalculate is if it is interrupted for some reason. (Crew moved, EV added to crew, Landwar attack.)

*edit*

If fractions are hard, just say it as a 1 to 2 ratio. Or a 1 to 3 ratio. or a 1 to 5 ratio. Okie doke?

--------------------
Shoe for the NSI

Post Extras:

Vapor
Lieutenant

Reged: 11/15/02
Posts: 699
Loc: Guam

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48942 - 02/02/03 05:41 AM (202.128.69.122)

I understand that they are trying to reduce lag with this change. I'm pretty sure, though, that it could be possible to reduce the lag without such a drastic change. Yes, lag will be reduced, but I am also sure that we will be hit with a whole new set of bugs.

--------------------
"For those about to rock, we salute you." - AC DC

"The evil that can come, from the heart of a man, must be answered in kind 'till it disappears, and we're safe." - Kansas

Post Extras:

Fiache
Corporal

Reged: 12/03/02
Posts: 130
Loc: Hawaii

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48958 - 02/02/03 10:33 AM (158.252.199.143)

Cost actually isn't the issue that we should be talking about. More importantly is 1Con Crew/building. Now that more then anything else is going to cause us grief.

In the system at present if I want to double contruction speed I double the infantry in the zone. Costs about 300,000 at present market prices per Platoon. If I have 10 Platoons working then it will cost me 3M to speed up production, plus what 1500/platoon in upkeep or an additional 15K.

Under the proposed system I have to purchase a higher level construction crew. And the jumps are not consistant. The BP jump between 2,3 and 3,4 is 2.5X, while the jump between 1,2 and 4,5 is 4X. But the cost jumps consistantly by 5X up to level 5, and then gets screwy. And maintenance is screwy from word go. So even if I can change a crew during construction, there is no consistant cost, or maintenance, nor will just buying the next level con crew nessacely going to double my construction in a zone.

IMHO, construction with crews should total all BP in a zone, the requirements of 1BP per building (more for special ones) should still exist. And then the total BP is divided by the number of buildings under construction, round down. Compute a finish date and be done. If the player changes the zone properties, (adds buildings to construct, more crews), then client side java should recompute all the end dates for all the buildings. What the hell did they create client side code for anyway? That would cause lag on the users machines but not effect the server greatly. All the info that the equations need is already being displayed on the land page. it shouldn't take much to export to the viewer's machine and make it do the work.

But then I'm not a programmer, just a database admin. so I might be missing something... but I don't think so.

F.

Post Extras:

Moraelin
Sergeant

Reged: 08/05/02
Posts: 304

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48968 - 02/02/03 11:46 AM (217.225.97.197)

If you can wait the multiple needed to build a TC with a 45 BP crew, you have my respect

--------------------
---
Moraelin - The proud member of the Idiots' Guild

Post Extras:

Moraelin
Sergeant

Reged: 08/05/02
Posts: 304

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48971 - 02/02/03 11:49 AM (217.225.97.197)

What you're missing is that you shouldn't trust client side code. The effort to edit the javascript on a page or even manually submit a whole bogus form to the server is less than minimal, and the oportunities to cheat are endless.

Now I do think that this whole crew chaos wasn't really needed to fix the lag, but trusting client-side code with that is not the solution.

--------------------
---
Moraelin - The proud member of the Idiots' Guild

Edited by Moraelin (02/02/03 11:51 AM)

Post Extras:

Moraelin
Sergeant

Reged: 08/05/02
Posts: 304

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48979 - 02/02/03 12:15 PM (217.225.97.197)

Well, here's a simple idea, then: _if_ civilian builders are the real cause of lag, how about just making civilians no longer build? You know, _if_ that's the whole problem, how about just addressing the problem and leaving the rest of the system alone?

But to be honest, I don't think the civilian builders really were the problem to start with. Or at least, not one that the change will address.

1) You see, the system will _still_ have to calculate the empire's total population and divide it among commercials, factories and research centers. There's other stuff, like your research multiplier, which depend on that, so it won't be eliminated. And at the end of subtracting that stuff, you're left with a number: the total number of unemployed people in the empire. And

2) it still has to go through the list of zones with buildings under construction. If nothing else, to update that population.

So now let's put 1 and 2 together, and try to get something reasonably close to 3. So you have the total number of unemployed people anyway, and you have to go through the list of cities anyway. Well, blimey, that means that the _only_ overhead to add the civvie builders is a multiplication, a division and an addition per city. That's all. All three of those are operations which take extremely few CPU cycles.

--------------------
---
Moraelin - The proud member of the Idiots' Guild

Post Extras:

Cool_Breeze
Recruit

Reged: 01/16/03
Posts: 38

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48980 - 02/02/03 12:23 PM (66.222.116.94)

I'm glad someone is using there heads (plural is the correct term) here. There are still many bugs in neveron that the admins have not corrected, but they know about them. I've discovered a couple of them by accident. But I use them to my advantage all the time. So now we're on the verge of some more new additions to the game. And yes, the bugs will come. And how long will it take them to fix these bugs, since they have never bothered to fix the other bugs.

The main bug I exploit can be so easily fixed. They could have the code written and started in the same day.

I've also noticed that neveron is going down fast in the topwebgames.com poll. Since the day this change was announced neveorn has dropped in rank by about 5. I may be wrong. I think that speaks a little more than this silly boycott.

Post Extras:

Kit_fox
Colonel

Reged: 09/16/02
Posts: 3054

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#48993 - 02/02/03 02:57 PM (129.138.32.68)

Um... you know that knowingly exploiting a bug can get your empire deleted or a VERY large fine? And you realize that you just admited on a forum that you knowingly exploit bugs?

--------------------
_____

The RNG mugged me in a dark street, killed my dog, and cancled Christmas.

When the winds of change blow hard enough the most trivial of things can become deadly projectials.

Knowledge is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be evil.

Post Extras:

anderclayton
Captain

Reged: 08/05/02
Posts: 894

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#49003 - 02/02/03 04:23 PM (208.186.188.131)

The problem is that some bugs aren't really bugs exactly. They are sloppy code that the admin knows about but isn't going to be fixing (ever).

Ander

Post Extras:

anderclayton
Captain

Reged: 08/05/02
Posts: 894

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#49005 - 02/02/03 04:42 PM (208.186.188.131)

I actually have a few questions about this system and kinda have suspicions about the answers...

1. Can we change construction crews in midstream? (I suspect not and that Randy is envisioning changing constructoin to what training was changed into)

2. How is the transfer of builders to construction crews going to work? (covered in a different thread but definitely relevant--not answered either)

3. Are we going to be able to queu buildings? (I suspect not)

4. Are EV's permanently assigned to a specific construction crew?

Ander

Edited by anderclayton (02/02/03 04:56 PM)

Post Extras:

Stalker17
General

Reged: 06/24/02
Posts: 2581

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#49007 - 02/02/03 04:54 PM (68.159.0.183)

we probably will be able to queqe buildings, think about it.

I'm making 4 residentials, and have 2 crews. since 1 crew per building 2 get crwes and the other 2 don't build unti lthe first two finish. Then the 2 now-idle crews move on to the next two buildings. simple

--------------------
"Insanity is just another word for true creativity"

da SEXY Stalker17, out

Post Extras:

anderclayton
Captain

Reged: 08/05/02
Posts: 894

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#49008 - 02/02/03 04:59 PM (208.186.188.131)

But would require more active coding... "Simple" isn't necessarily the way it is going to work.

If it does work that way though, is it going to drop leftover BP's or carry them over to the next buidling?

Ander

Edited by anderclayton (02/02/03 05:20 PM)

Post Extras:

Stalker17
General

Reged: 06/24/02
Posts: 2581

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#49013 - 02/02/03 05:19 PM (68.159.0.183)

well how else is it going to work? remember you don't have a pool of X BPs now, you have a number of crews

--------------------
"Insanity is just another word for true creativity"

da SEXY Stalker17, out

Post Extras:

anderclayton
Captain

Reged: 08/05/02
Posts: 894

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#49014 - 02/02/03 05:23 PM (208.186.188.131)

Now? Now I have a bunch of builders (some civilians, some infantry)...

What are you trying to say exactly?

[sorry, I edited my last post right as you were posting a new one]

Ander

Post Extras:

TheDeadlyShoe
Lieutenant Colonel

Reged: 06/22/02
Posts: 1621
Loc: Redmond, WA

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#49037 - 02/02/03 10:59 PM (4.40.153.191)

the issue with civvie builders was actually that they changed the BP in a zone every nevday.

--------------------
Shoe for the NSI

Post Extras:

anderclayton
Captain

Reged: 08/05/02
Posts: 894

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#49039 - 02/02/03 11:05 PM (208.186.188.144)

I wasn't raising an issue with civvie builders. I am going with the thread. If the civvie builders are the big problem then I doubt it would raise any real protests to get rid of them entirely. They are mostly just a neato coolio little extra anyhow.

Ander

Post Extras:

TheDeadlyShoe
Lieutenant Colonel

Reged: 06/22/02
Posts: 1621
Loc: Redmond, WA

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#49051 - 02/03/03 12:12 AM (4.40.153.191)

bah ok forget the civvie builders

--------------------
Shoe for the NSI

Post Extras:

Selina
Recruit

Reged: 07/12/02
Posts: 51

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#49075 - 02/03/03 06:12 AM (134.76.25.103)

What's your problem Flameseeker ? This thread is basically a poll about who will be willing to support Neveron after these changes and who won't. No more, no less.
Those that think, that the changes are Ok or that Neveron will be worth their money even after the changes, will continue donating, those that think otherwise might stop. Seems like a good idea to get a picture of the mood.

Selina

Post Extras:

Selina
Recruit

Reged: 07/12/02
Posts: 51

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#49076 - 02/03/03 06:18 AM (134.76.25.103)

In reply to:

Nev needs the money from somewhere, yes, but lately it's been IMHO pushing too hard to get that money. That's the way this particular donor feels about it. There's a fine line between voluntarily supporting a small team of developpers trying to make a free game, and feeling like it's turning into a "you're not getting anywhere unless you pay up" kind of a scam. Of course, it is just my own view of it, and it may well be very wrong. But of course, I'll base my choice of whether to send more money on that subjective view. And, of course, you're 100% free to think otherwise.

Very well said. It's a pity that Neveron seems to changing from a really good game (despite the bugs and other little problems) to something where you can't really get ahead, unless you are willing to pay lots of money.

I've donated in the past, but after all the changes in the last few months plus the upcomming builder changes, it gets less and less likely that I will ever donate again.

Selina

Post Extras:

Selina
Recruit

Reged: 07/12/02
Posts: 51

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#49077 - 02/03/03 06:27 AM (134.76.25.103)

In reply to:

Personally, I don't see why Randy & Co. feel they have to change the construction rules. I am perfectly happy with them the way they are, and I don't think they need to be changed. I doubt they'll listen to me, though, and they will probably go through with this foolish notion of using construction crews.

Well, the idea behind the changes is, that they want to cut down lag. The main idea of using a precalculated timestamp instead of daily updates is a really good one (those regular update scripts make for a application, that must have problems with scalability).
But although I like the basic idea of just calculating how long a building will take instead of updating it's status 10 times a day, I can't really agree with the suggested implementation.

It's plainly to expensive (especially when working on bigger projects) and it suddenly makes many investments worthless (EVs as well as many of the infantry techs and factories to build inf stuff). I would hope, that it gets adjusted before it is finally implemented, but somehow I don't have much faith left.

Selina

Post Extras:

Selina
Recruit

Reged: 07/12/02
Posts: 51

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#49078 - 02/03/03 06:31 AM (134.76.25.103)

In reply to:

It is, however, very doubtful that the EV prices are even going to be staying stable in the future.

I disagree. In fact many of the larger empires will have a large surplus of EVs, if the change is implemented as suggested, and their demand for new EVs will dwindle. I think if anything EV-prices will stay stable. Afterall production is already higher than the demand.

Selina

Post Extras:

davion76
Lieutenant Colonel

Reged: 08/07/02
Posts: 1605
Loc: Ridgecrest CA, USA

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#49081 - 02/03/03 07:05 AM (138.163.0.42)

I don't think production is higher than demand, the sellers just won't reduce the price. I know they are making a hefty profit on EV's at 6 mil. I bet you if the price dropped to 4 mil or less there wouldn't be many on the market. I know several people that would jump all over them, myself included.

Post Extras:

Wayward_Son
Major

Reged: 07/05/02
Posts: 1287

Fuzzy Math

#49101 - 02/03/03 12:09 PM (216.19.47.83)

I think maybe you need to do some math and figure out the actual costs here because you seem to be overreacting. Building overall is actually *cheaper* from both a cost (unless you are producing infantry weapons and have a large draft reserve) and maintenance standpoint than before. Let's compare at the lower end:

Type: AR Unit
Cost: +/-$500,000
Maint: $2,000
BP: 2.8

Type: Level 2 BC
Cost:$500,000
Maint: $3,000
BP: 4

Type: Level 3 BC
Cost: $2,000,000
Maint: $8,000
BP: 10

As you can see level 3 Build Crews (BC) start to become slightly less efficient than AR units (assuming market prices
stay below profitable levels), but they also build quite quickly. A 75 CF 4 level residential building can be built in just over 18 Nevdays. Level 1 BC's are not listed above but are extremly efficient cost-wise, particularly on the maintenance end. Patient empires and smaller empires will save a bundle of cash by using level 1's and even level 2's. The only reason to get the larger BC's are for when you are building very large structures (TC's and Repair facilities) and want them done in a more reasonable amount of time. We just reduced the build cost of TC's from 200,000 BP's to 40,000 to help make up for this change.

Larger empires will also greatly benefit from the fact that most have and use EV's to build, which GREATLY increase the efficinecy of builders. EV's will no longer be able to be used as the sole source of construction, but they will probably be more worth the outrageous prices people pay for them.

Few other aspects of building are changing. You can queue up only as many buildings as you have crews working in that zone. Since crew movement and purchase will be instantaneous, you can easily move however many crews you need to a specific zone, commission your buildings and let them build. If you have more crews than buildings in a zone, the game will only use as many crews as there are buildings to calclulate progress, choosing better crews over worse ones.

WS

Post Extras:

Flameseeker
Major

Reged: 07/18/02
Posts: 1304

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#49108 - 02/03/03 01:48 PM (66.82.9.16)

Selina, I was angry at Countergod for trying to sink a great game. Some people (me) can ignore the bugs, play it for fun, play it for the strategy and tactics. Other people have to have it perfect, they have to win, they have to have their DP stuff. And WS, nice job. *Clap clap clap clap* That's all I have to say. Except for, Countergod, I apologize. I was angry and I acted rashly. From now on that poll doesn't matter.

--------------------
Cpt. Searo "Ace" Ficha of the Darkfire Legionnaires

Post Extras:

anderclayton
Captain

Reged: 08/05/02
Posts: 894

Re: Fuzzy Math

#49111 - 02/03/03 02:06 PM (208.186.188.128)

"You can queue up only as many buildings as you have crews working in that zone. "

Well... That answers the queu question. No queus.

Ander

Post Extras:

anderclayton
Captain

Reged: 08/05/02
Posts: 894

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#49119 - 02/03/03 02:20 PM (208.186.188.128)

You also have a good portion of the people that weren't really aware of the breakdown of what they are worth prior to this change. Now it is plainly spelled out and anyone with a calculator can see how much they are worth. It is pretty likely that the EV price will probably double when the changes go through.

Ander

Post Extras:

anderclayton
Captain

Reged: 08/05/02
Posts: 894

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#49120 - 02/03/03 02:26 PM (208.186.188.128)

It was brought forward as a proposed change, not a New Change. The "proposed" wording would lead one to believe that discussing it, debating it, etc would be an encouraged thing. Bagging on people that are discussing it like that is kinda against the supposed purpose.

Ander

Post Extras:

anderclayton
Captain

Reged: 08/05/02
Posts: 894

Re: Fuzzy Math

#49121 - 02/03/03 02:38 PM (208.186.188.128)

If you are actually saying that that was an aspect that "isn't changing," you are a bit off there. Right now you can build as many buildings as you have BP (pretty much) and split them any way that they can be split. If you can only have as many buildings being produced as you have crews, this means that you are going to have to wait with bated breath on your 'build' button for a crew to stop or just lose that crew's actions until you can tell them to start another building.

Right now if your buildings are nearing completion, you can just add more buildings to the amount that your workers are producing. With the proposed changes, you have to be able to start producing right after they get done.

You do realize that the term queu refers to what is basically new requisitions, right?

"A 75 CF 4 level residential building can be built in just over 18 Nevdays. "

Hmmmm... Including basement (most people do that), it would take 23 Nevdays actually. 225BP construction and you get smacked for the last five BP. Right now I can get a set done in a day or two in some of my empires.

Ander

Post Extras:

Mortimus_Jones
Sergeant Major

Reged: 11/30/02
Posts: 273
Loc: Middle o' the US of A

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#49123 - 02/03/03 03:05 PM (65.69.50.215)

Yes, and trying to get people to stop donating over building costs is just as silly. But hey, why should we care (those that take the good with the bad) We shouldnt, I guess, it should be just fine to freak out over building costs, and to get as many n00bs to NOT donate, (and, in essence, not start up Empires, and not play) then, hell, no new donations, all the large donators stay big, all the small guys stay small, we all have something else to bitch and whine about, and the game goes on. Sad.

I see where Flame is coming from, and I have to agree. This is just one way for people to try to get things their way, which it was NEVER stated that donating would gain you leverage for game changes. Discussing it, yes, but trying to get people to stop donating, to keep something that can, and most likely will, (in my opinion) benefit the game, is silly. They never, ever stated that changing it over to BC's would REDUCE THE TOTAL COST. If you look at it, the ONLY thing it changes is the abillity to buy a crap load of Inf at the beginning. Thats just horribly WRONG, now isnt it? They said the aim was to reduce lag. Nowhere in the update did they say they were trying to "reduce" the costs, the costs even out (FOR BUILDING). And, if this is about being a n00b, and being able to go "quickly", or build your Empire up faster, come on. That, I am sorry to say, should not even be brought into it. If you start this game, thinking that there is a way to get some kind of "jump" or accelerated building pace by using Inf, you are in the wrong game anyway. This game was NOT meant to go fast, it was not meant to take a week to reach a substantial gain in your Empire (unless you plan on going into the arena, or landwar) so that is a pretty lame reason for getting pissed about this.

I am a total n00b. Been playing for less than 3 months, (notice the n00b questions that I post, quite frequently?) and I am still growing at a snail pace. Maybe I could have done something different in the beginning, but that would not change the fact that this is a SLOW paced game, something meant to be built up over time. Saying that this is going to make New Empires grow slower, is like saying they need to lower Mech costs so Small Empires can purchase them earlier. I think thats a GREAT idea

. That way, new Empires wont have to build as much infra, and they can still grow (based on BV) and then participate in LW and high level arenas sooner, giving them the abillity to grow real fast. Silly. And yes, the little "Poll" about donating pisses me off too. I voted for all of the above, because thats a load of crap. To try to get people to stop donating because of this change is sad, and to try to say that this change will ruin the game is worse. Yea, re-tooling my current Empires will cost, yea, it may take me longer to reach level 5, but hell, I did not, in any way, expect it to go quickly. THAT would be a mistake.

--------------------
Oh poop off already.....

Post Extras:

davion76
Lieutenant Colonel

Reged: 08/07/02
Posts: 1605
Loc: Ridgecrest CA, USA

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#49136 - 02/03/03 04:14 PM (138.163.0.44)

What the purpose of this poll was, is to let the admins know that we have some power too. Each individual has nearly no power, but if a significant majority of the people who donate to keep nav running are solidly against something, we can get it changed by the force of refusing to donate. The admins have the choice of changing or shutting down nev. I seroiusly doubt that this point is important eniugh to Randy that he wuld shut down nev. Note that I'm NOT one of those who will refuse to donate because of this, but I AM DEFINITLEY in favor of the discussion that this poll has enabled.

Post Extras:

Flameseeker
Major

Reged: 07/18/02
Posts: 1304

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#49145 - 02/03/03 05:11 PM (205.188.193.161)

I don't want to put him in the position that he might WANT to shut down Nev. This is a fun, free game. Acting like a spoiled little brat isn't gonna help. Were you chained to the ground and did you have a gun at your head when and if you donated? No, you wanted to get big fast. If you are so mad at Randy for creating HIS game HIS way, buy your own server, and code your own game. I won't be playing it, good luck.

--------------------
Cpt. Searo "Ace" Ficha of the Darkfire Legionnaires

Post Extras:

davion76
Lieutenant Colonel

Reged: 08/07/02
Posts: 1605
Loc: Ridgecrest CA, USA

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#49176 - 02/03/03 06:14 PM (12.219.245.15)

I'm not mad at him, I just donated $200 this past week. That makes a total of $500 I have donated. That being said, the players are alot of what keeps nev running, and because of that, as a group, we have power. If we as a group all want something realistic w eshould get it.

Post Extras:

TheDeadlyShoe
Lieutenant Colonel

Reged: 06/22/02
Posts: 1621
Loc: Redmond, WA

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#49207 - 02/03/03 08:20 PM (4.40.153.191)

A note on basements, if you are yelling about how builders might be ineffecient at building or cost more money, you really shouldnt be using basements.

--------------------
Shoe for the NSI

Post Extras:

Moraelin
Sergeant

Reged: 08/05/02
Posts: 304

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#49244 - 02/03/03 11:17 PM (217.225.108.49)

Flameseeker, let's put it like this: if I wanted to have a quick win for my DP, I would have bought a lance of level 2 mechs and marched them through your main city. With the money I paid, I could have had 4 times the infra by now, without even hiring a single builder ever. And I couldn't have cared less about any builder changes, if that was the case.

So please step out of the fanboy fit already. The people who are pissed off here are the builders, not the people who want a quick gain for their DP. The people who want a quick win for their DP are that-a-way. They're the nice chaps over there with the lances of Stone Rhino and Nemesis. The chaps that you see in the war log every single day.

They're also the people that Randy and WWS catter to. I don't know how much those guys paid Randy for that perpetual LW, but I would guess more than I paid to build. Because what Randy wants is still more LW, not more people building stuff.

But either way, lemme get this straight. You throw this big a fit over someone wanting to stop paying, as if they absolutely _must_ keep paying... but you never paid anything yourself. A bit hypocritical, eh? It seems to me like _you_ already decided that Neveron is _not_ worth your money. Then what gives you the right to throw a fit when someone else is getting to the same conclusion? If you really think that Neveron needs money to survive, you don't need to throw fits, you just need to go to PayPal and send it some money. That's all. That's the only thing which would prove that you actually believe Neveron is worth the money. Until then, you just "voted with your wallet" that Neveron isn't worth paying for. Thank you for your vote.

--------------------
---
Moraelin - The proud member of the Idiots' Guild

Post Extras:

TheDeadlyShoe
Lieutenant Colonel

Reged: 06/22/02
Posts: 1621
Loc: Redmond, WA

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#49256 - 02/03/03 11:50 PM (4.40.153.191)

Randy is maybe more in favor of lots more landwar, but he's also in favor of more limited landwar, as opposed to the most common type of LW we have today, the crush-an-empire-in-a-few-hours. Sadly, Moraelin, most empires are crushed so easily because they dont have a military worth a DAMN. Admittedly, anyone Sly attacks is pretty much screwed unless he invested in a massive group of towers, but when Sly attacks you you get your infra back. Other landwar-empires might not have the sheer striking power of Irregulars, but ehy might not be as nice with infra. The sad thing is that most of the empires you see that are hit are NOT set up for defense in ANY kind of proper fashion. Wake up, people! When you get to level 5 or 6... you...are....a.... target . a BIG target. you NEED to invest in towers, have a well trained, well equipped military, have lots of reserve cash on hand, invest in alliances, have standby empires ready to counter-attack, join a faction that can actively contribute to your defense, generate terrain on your zones, PLACE YOUR BLEEDIN' TROOPS (I canNOT stress that enough), et. al.

It's just sad te number of level 5-6 empires I see get smeared. The times I have landwarred I have not once come against a significant defense force. not once. We really need to add another section to the tutorial: How to Defend your Empire.

sorry for the insta-rant, I hate to see so many empires die with barely a whimper.

--------------------
Shoe for the NSI

Post Extras:

anderclayton
Captain

Reged: 08/05/02
Posts: 894

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#49258 - 02/04/03 12:19 AM (208.186.188.141)

Me, I was going on the issue of speed but seriously you could make the same case for building 150 CF buildings or even building 50 CF buildings. At least as far as cost efficiency is concerned. Larger CF buildings are much more inefficient than smaller ones.

Lame straw horse argument.

Ander

Post Extras:

Flameseeker
Major

Reged: 07/18/02
Posts: 1304

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#49281 - 02/04/03 06:23 AM (66.82.9.32)

I'm broke.

Also, DP buys so little unless you spend 100+ dollars, which I don't have, and if I did, I probably would't donate with. BTW, if you attacked me, you would gain very little. I am a small empire, with not enough population to waste attacking.

--------------------
Cpt. Searo "Ace" Ficha of the Darkfire Legionnaires

Post Extras:

Moraelin
Sergeant

Reged: 08/05/02
Posts: 304

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#49302 - 02/04/03 08:59 AM (194.114.62.38)

I wasn't planning to attack you, nor anyone else anyway. That was the whole point. That if I just wanted a quick return of investment, I'd attack someone for infra and morale. Definitely quicker than trying to argue with Randy and WWS anyway. And definitely more fun.

Or even better, for that kind of money I could have just bought me a level 8 or 9 empire. E.g., I see Jere's Black Towers empire is up for sale for around the same money as what I donated so far. It's a level 9, has good military, a 0/0 Stone Rhino, good income, and generally is _much_ better than the level 7 and 5 I built. So there you go: yet another way to get not only more bang per US$ than trying to build your own, but also to get it much faster.

The whole discussion here was about how this change affects the builder and manufacturer empires, not how to get a quick benefit out of your DP. That was my point.

In reply to:

Also, DP buys so little unless you spend 100+ dollars, which I don't have, and if I did, I probably would't donate with.

Which on one hand means you're a lot more sane than I was, but on the other had, well, you've just said that whether Neveron "sinks" or not, it isn't worth saving with _your_ money. Again, very sane and pragmatic point of view. No arguments from me there. But surely then you'll have some understanding for those of us who are slowly (and too late) getting to the exact same conclusion.

--------------------
---
Moraelin - The proud member of the Idiots' Guild

Post Extras:

Flameseeker
Major

Reged: 07/18/02
Posts: 1304

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#49352 - 02/04/03 02:12 PM (66.82.9.30)

Darn, DPing fools have discovered my scheme.....

*Looks around suspiciously*

--------------------
Cpt. Searo "Ace" Ficha of the Darkfire Legionnaires

Post Extras:

anderclayton
Captain

Reged: 08/05/02
Posts: 894

Re: DP BOYCOTT VOTED ON AND CONFIRMED IN CHAT VOTE HERE

#49376 - 02/04/03 03:58 PM (208.186.188.133)

Well... Question 3 was answered (we can't queu buildings). The other ones really haven't been covered.

More questions though:

5. What happens to construction crews when a zone gets invaded? Do they run away? If so, do they cause a loss of morale from running? Do they just go away? Are they taken over by the invader? If the latter, that might be a nice bonus for invading...

6. Do construction crews have any effect on morale (as in, if we disband them, do we lose morale)?

7. Is transfering infantry to construction crews going to cause a loss of morale?

Ander

Post Extras:

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | >> (show all)

Extra information

0 registered and 0 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator: Wayward_Son, Nic Jansma, mattbuck, ShadowMasterCM, Cray

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is enabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:

Topic views: 12387

Contact Admins

Sarna.net

UBB.threads™ 6.5.1b5