Toscotto
Lieutenant
Reged: 02/02/06
Posts: 530
Loc: Tacoma WA
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Training and skilldowns....
#135967 - 09/03/06 10:51 PM (66.207.0.74)
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I saw, i can't remember where, people were having a problem with the training not giving skilldowns as they should be.
Was this from using the training facilities, or training as units?
I have been having a terrible time getting any decent skilldowns with using the facilities, but when I just sent a company of light speedbumps to train I Very good results. almost every unit had at least one or two skilldowns.
Maybe the training of existing units rather than using training facilities give better skilldowns?
I could be wrong, but it is observable.
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The question is not how far, the question is do you possess the constitution, the depth of faith, to go as far as needed?
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mattbuck
Eeyore
Reged: 02/13/04
Posts: 3285
Loc: Nottingham, UK
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Re: Training and skilldowns....
[Re: Toscotto]
#135993 - 09/04/06 12:21 PM (84.68.246.170)
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Training is now about 0/100000000000000000000000th as effective as it used to be.
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Haha, you people think admins still look at these forums.
Visit the Platonian! Updated! Stuff! Things! Click!
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sdog
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 1791
Loc: europe
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Re: Training and skilldowns....
[Re: mattbuck]
#136023 - 09/05/06 12:22 PM (84.154.96.26)
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this looks like it is the result of carefull and thorough statistical analysis.
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I realised soon that the fun part of playing a military game is that we have lots of lifes and in the end knowone dies, ...
- Skaven, ArmA modding community
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NeverSayNever
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 11/18/02
Posts: 1655
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Re: Training and skilldowns....
[Re: sdog]
#136028 - 09/05/06 02:17 PM (172.173.92.7)
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Quote:
this looks like it is the result of carefull and thorough statistical analysis.
[Warning! May contain ... - Not to be taken way too seriously!]
Scientists from "Dirtcheap Polls for Survival", a recently founded, brandnew subdivision of the "Dirtcheap Products for Survival Group", for short: "DPs for Survival Group", just started a new, dirtcheap, scientific survey.
results so far:
One player out of one players (read: 100 %) who has/have been suffering from unit skill loss recently said/commented:
"This new built-in skill loss over time feature just plain sucks. I downright hate it. Soldiers losing skill while still in training? Downright ridiculous. Please let's get rid of this weird concept and bring back different maintenance levels instead."
scientific results for other dirtcheap polls: coming soon
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Krusty
Corporal
Reged: 04/13/04
Posts: 64
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Re: Training and skilldowns....
[Re: Toscotto]
#136037 - 09/05/06 08:00 PM (24.19.209.113)
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I experienced the same effect. I suspect they want to discourage use of training facilities.
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Wolfshayde
Sergeant Major
Reged: 05/29/06
Posts: 326
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Re: Training and skilldowns....
[Re: Krusty]
#136088 - 09/06/06 12:38 PM (68.58.116.237)
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no, actually they want to get rid of neg gunners and make skill 4 the average
WolfShayde
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cbtgod
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 1813
Loc: IN A BOX UNDER A HOUSE
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Re: Training and skilldowns....
[Re: Wolfshayde]
#136093 - 09/06/06 01:10 PM (70.126.173.120)
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lol omg lol
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yes its a toad, if you didnt know that you dont know anything about cbt
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Wolfshayde
Sergeant Major
Reged: 05/29/06
Posts: 326
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Re: Training and skilldowns....
[Re: cbtgod]
#136105 - 09/06/06 02:04 PM (68.58.116.237)
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just think...battles that now take a week or more will soon take a month or more
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Fang
Captain
Reged: 10/22/04
Posts: 1070
Loc: North Carolina, USA
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Re: Training and skilldowns....
[Re: Wolfshayde]
#136111 - 09/06/06 02:25 PM (65.82.104.120)
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I thought skill 4 WAS the new average
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One by one, the rabbits are stealing my sanity.....
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cbtgod
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 1813
Loc: IN A BOX UNDER A HOUSE
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Re: Training and skilldowns....
[Re: Fang]
#136175 - 09/07/06 01:25 AM (70.126.173.120)
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skill 4 is not the average in cbt either?
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yes its a toad, if you didnt know that you dont know anything about cbt
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rantamplan
Sergeant Major
Reged: 03/26/03
Posts: 341
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Re: Training and skilldowns....
[Re: cbtgod]
#136212 - 09/07/06 10:02 AM (62.42.82.62)
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yeah but cbt is thuoght in a different way, in deed its thuogth to make a single duel between 2 heavy mechs to last almost all the afternoon, ¿how much time could a duel last between a... for example a 4 gunnery mad and a wathever gunnery phoenix hawk that (for making things easier) cannot take full coverture? also cant flee from combat since map is smaller... gunnery 4 +3 partial coverture +2 range +3 movment penality (phoenix)= 12 to hit (and thats if the mad stands still and would like to know how it keeps at medium range standing still).
Also in cbt is asumed that both players wants to fight and none of them will stall the battle(like the phoenix of the example).
its just another concept of gaming, one is for making battle durable and neveron should be for making battles faster (since youll have to fight plenty of times in a single war).
thats my opinion.
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Splurch
Corporal
Reged: 09/04/02
Posts: 60
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Re: Training and skilldowns....
[Re: cbtgod]
#136217 - 09/07/06 11:36 AM (71.131.228.98)
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Not to mention the fact that an attacking force of mechs/idf is going to have a skill of 2-3 minimum, meaning that your skill 4 average force is going to be at a massive disadvantage using nevs terrain.
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cbtgod
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 1813
Loc: IN A BOX UNDER A HOUSE
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Re: Training and skilldowns....
[Re: Splurch]
#136231 - 09/07/06 01:36 PM (70.126.173.120)
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i agree and dont in our cbt game it a cont merc game and trashing your mecs costs money? they have to do something about the terrain in this game? then skill 4 wouldnt scare people.
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yes its a toad, if you didnt know that you dont know anything about cbt
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Toontje
Colonel
Reged: 01/18/04
Posts: 2578
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Re: Training and skilldowns....
[Re: cbtgod]
#136246 - 09/07/06 03:30 PM (131.155.212.149)
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On tabletop, a big game takes about as much turns as a small game. All units are about damaged at the same rate. Concentrated fire shifts this slightly to longer, but the overall damage/unit is about the same.
Now move and weapon/damage resolution takes a bit longer, but # of turns, no. (In general a comp/comp battle takes 6 hr, lance/lance 4.)
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Rather to blow up, then.
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KingDiamond
Lieutenant
Reged: 04/12/03
Posts: 689
Loc: Germany
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Re: Training and skilldowns....
[Re: cbtgod]
#136279 - 09/08/06 01:55 AM (128.176.216.116)
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Quote:
they have to do something about the terrain in this game? then skill 4 wouldnt scare people.
Personally, a shift towards more mediocre skills doesn't bother me at all, no matter what terrain. Uber skills aren't all good for the game. Of course 4 is not really what everyone wants to have, but I doubt it will come that far. A shift to generally positive gun skills might at least put an end to massive use of idf units. And that is something many reasonable people have demanded like a million times in here.
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rantamplan
Sergeant Major
Reged: 03/26/03
Posts: 341
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Re: Training and skilldowns....
[Re: KingDiamond]
#136280 - 09/08/06 02:22 AM (193.144.197.164)
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I would like to add some points to mi comments that i have thougth yesterday after my last post.
First is thatwe are talking about average gunnery 4, that means youll have also a lot of units skilled 5-8 for keeping your average skill at 4, if battles with skill 4 could take ages dont want to think about worst gunnery, it also will break a bit the BV system since a single fast unit could kill a batallion of green skilled behemots, i think that with this skill raise fast units will be the king of battles.
Also i think that they want to change the skills to fit under what in CBT is considered green, regular veteran and elite skills although i think that names are very unreal, as allways i think that it would have been much better to change the name of the skills (<0 elite, 1-3 veteran, 4-6 regular, 7-8 green) as simple as that and we all would have been happy.
As an example i would like to ask to one of our military players of the game:
- lets supose a recruit in his first shoting practice in their military duty, lets supose he is firing at short range to a stationary targer while standing still firing the bullets 1 by 1 and having time to think in each shot, lets asume he fires 36 shots ¿how many do you think will hit the target?
- lets supose the same example with a recruit that has been 250 days in training in the military duty ¿how many shots he will hit?
- lets asume that we do the same experiment with a veteran militar that could be now in active duty in irak or in any other place ¿how many hits he will get?.
I have never shot a weapon so i might be wrong so would like to hear a more expert opinion but my bet is that an average recruit in real world will start the military service with like gunnery 4, also any veteran to elite militar would be 2 or less since i dont expect them to fail any shot like that...
So i think that the system is not real and doesnt make the game more interesting and/or increase its "playability" i think that they should think twice why they do the change and what they want to acomplish, changinng the average skills just for fitting the standars of a game that was never intended to have big battles with huge maps, bad terrains and wars with more than one battle is stupid, just change the standars of the game to fill the game needs (as simple as changing one text line in the training page), wich anyway are razonable in real life terms.
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Tigre
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 02/10/03
Posts: 1833
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Re: Training and skilldowns....
[Re: KingDiamond]
#136291 - 09/08/06 05:37 AM (216.130.147.106)
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and add to the zones of 2 batts of inf, and 2 batts of STR-00s, and 2 batts of MAN-0's. . .
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- Tigre
Ipsa Scientia Potestas Est
- Francis Bacon
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cbtgod
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 1813
Loc: IN A BOX UNDER A HOUSE
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Re: Training and skilldowns....
[Re: Tigre]
#136313 - 09/08/06 01:07 PM (70.126.173.120)
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well green in cbt is 5-4 clans are 4-3 i think a 2-2 for you none commanders if fine but your lance commander should not after, all he is supposed to be the bad ass of the group?
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yes its a toad, if you didnt know that you dont know anything about cbt
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Fang
Captain
Reged: 10/22/04
Posts: 1070
Loc: North Carolina, USA
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Re: Training and skilldowns....
[Re: cbtgod]
#136314 - 09/08/06 01:11 PM (65.82.104.120)
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you're right, cbtgod. IS starting was 5/4 and Clan was 4/3 I used to start players out at 4/4 just to be fair.
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One by one, the rabbits are stealing my sanity.....
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Toontje
Colonel
Reged: 01/18/04
Posts: 2578
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Re: Training and skilldowns....
[Re: Fang]
#136319 - 09/08/06 04:30 PM (131.155.212.21)
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Well, they start at 7/6 for periphery farmer boys.. (or 8/7?)
An average of 4 is too high, about 2-3 shoudl be ok tho. A planet where loss of a -1 gunnery sniper is something to fear...
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Rather to blow up, then.
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Wolfshayde
Sergeant Major
Reged: 05/29/06
Posts: 326
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Re: Training and skilldowns....
[Re: Toontje]
#136320 - 09/08/06 05:30 PM (68.58.116.237)
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In reality, a green recruit only able to aquire a 7-8 skill with his weapon would be washed out of the service, at least in the Marine Corp, and in the Corp, in wouldnt matter if he was a genuis in computers or avionics,, he would be gone. The difference between Green Troops and Regular is whether or not the soldier has seen combat Its one thing to fire your weapon accurately, its quite another to do so while being fired upon. Great hunters and Target Masters dont necessarily make good soldiers.
IMHO, I can understand the people that complain about the massive armies of neg gunners. I also believe that 7-8 gun is unreasonable. I do believe ther can be a reasonable compromise
In such.... soldiers should be aquired at 6 skill, with sniper marksmanship skills ending at -2 or -3 skill. add a new condition to soldiers as wounded, this causing an immediate skill up. Fatigued soldiers also would have that problem. Routed soldiers could happen be they Infantry , armored, or in a mech, these soldiers could have a percentage chance of skilling up to 7or 8 as " battle fatigue" and cowardice affect them, though the percentage chance should NOT be high.
Change Training....allow two training cycles per soldier for skill down purposes. think of it as basic training and Advanced Training. The first shows the soldiers apptitude for Infantry, Armored, or Mech. The second Training cycle will give them his advance training in his MOS.
Further Training allows the soldier to maintain his Skill and readiness. To skill down further must be done in combat. Negative gun soldiers have one exception to the above rules, in that their skills will increase by one (skill up) if they have not been in combat at least once every 100 days. Note that once they are no longer negative, this exception condition would no longer be applicable.
This I believe would be an equitable situation across the board both with new players and old, and with Admins vision of the game and the players needs and desires of the game.
your opinion?
WolfShayde
Edited by Wolfshayde (09/08/06 05:33 PM)
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Toontje
Colonel
Reged: 01/18/04
Posts: 2578
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Re: Training and skilldowns....
[Re: Wolfshayde]
#136334 - 09/09/06 02:31 AM (84.24.178.225)
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6 is too much instant-army, with ABR battalions in use (both inf and hunter). Better skill infantry is plain scary.. Even a batt of 8's can cause serious trouble.
8 is ok, you flush out bad recruits yourself (Well, I do). It requires more micro-management, but a goal is to create smaller empires with more care to them (more or less what I get out of changes). (think of the 9+ as already having been reassigned to support)
Would not suggest a possible skillup at soldier wounding.. every head hit would be terrible.
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Rather to blow up, then.
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Arkidda
Lieutenant
Reged: 01/02/05
Posts: 443
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Re: Training and skilldowns....
[Re: Toontje]
#136341 - 09/09/06 06:57 PM (72.254.196.30)
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Skill 8 gunnery units? Are you out of your MIND? Who would you fight with that? I don't even like skill 8 Infantry (which if you don't remember, all Inf with skill 8 will auto flee from a enemy unless you have direct control of that unit.). Any skill 8 unit would only have a chance if their target DOESN"T MOVE and your unit doesn't move.
I am sorry, I prefer to have no less than skill 5 in gunnery so I have at least a Chance in hitting my enemy. And the skill 2 Perfect Soldiers we DP for, should never skill up past 2. We paid 6 DP for a "Perfect" Soldier, then he should never skill up past that 2.
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Killing means you never have to say your sorry.
"We have a long road ahead of us." - "Let's litter it with bodies."
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CaBhaal
Lieutenant
Reged: 10/11/04
Posts: 599
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Re: Training and skilldowns....
[Re: Arkidda]
#136361 - 09/10/06 01:32 PM (24.32.87.34)
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Quote:
I don't even like skill 8 Infantry (which if you don't remember, all Inf with skill 8 will auto flee from a enemy unless you have direct control of that unit.).
This was removed with Auto-ABR. Infantry no longer auto flee when confronted with high-BV units.
CaB
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Toontje
Colonel
Reged: 01/18/04
Posts: 2578
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Re: Training and skilldowns....
[Re: Arkidda]
#136373 - 09/11/06 05:16 AM (131.155.196.163)
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Only with inf and tanks on skill 8 would like to face any enmy. Point being, what is the use of differences in skill multi, if all were created equal? Skilling down from 8 to 6 in 2-3 checks is a great indication if the unit is decent in multi's or not. So even with starting skill 6, more bad gunners would slip trough preliminary checking.
Don't give admins ideas on that..
Inf with skill 6 is just good for masses units, and too powerfull to have without preparation.
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Rather to blow up, then.
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Wolfshayde
Sergeant Major
Reged: 05/29/06
Posts: 326
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Re: Training and skilldowns....
[Re: Toontje]
#136393 - 09/11/06 06:45 PM (68.58.116.237)
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I normally pull my infantry from those that fail to skill down from vehicle gunnery. this usually gives my infatry upon training anywhere from 3 to 5 range to start.
Frankly, as you have seen above what my opions are on green troops, I rarely commission any soldier into anything above 5. maybe I am being to particular.
I use a combination of training facilities and training battalions of Geckos and swiftwinds. those also make great deterrents for infantry dropping in
WolfShayde
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Toontje
Colonel
Reged: 01/18/04
Posts: 2578
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Re: Training and skilldowns....
[Re: Wolfshayde]
#136423 - 09/13/06 04:49 AM (131.155.85.101)
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Grunts from the volunteers, when surviving, put them in cold storage till I need 'elite' (skill 5), 'vet'(6) or regulars (7).
inf do not need a lot of traning, just numbers.. loads an loads of numbers.
Sweet idea on the gecko's, or aiv-t's..
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Rather to blow up, then.
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Slaine
Newbie
Reged: 02/06/06
Posts: 11
Loc: Nairn, nr Inverness SCO
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Re: Training and skilldowns....
[Re: Toontje]
#136452 - 09/13/06 03:57 PM (88.108.251.216)
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another gash idea thats just pissing players off right across nev. also seeing double skillups on occasion to the same unit within the 100 days is just bs.
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Tigre
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 02/10/03
Posts: 1833
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Re: Training and skilldowns....
[Re: Slaine]
#136686 - 09/20/06 05:29 AM (216.130.147.106)
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especially when you get a war skilldown, and the next day the unit skills up 2 points.
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- Tigre
Ipsa Scientia Potestas Est
- Francis Bacon
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Tigre
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 02/10/03
Posts: 1833
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Re: Training and skilldowns....
[Re: Toontje]
#136687 - 09/20/06 05:30 AM (216.130.147.106)
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I wonder if our pilots have been skilling up for the last 3 weeks?
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- Tigre
Ipsa Scientia Potestas Est
- Francis Bacon
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