OgreMagi
Corporal
Reged: 02/17/06
Posts: 54
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Lrm location hits
#146632 - 05/04/07 10:05 AM (72.51.166.102)
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I have noticed that Lrm unit in this game are very diffrent than in battle tech, the ability of a LRM 10/15/20 to hit the head of a mech with suprising regularity and the lrm 5 point clusters hitting ONE LOCATION ON A UNIT when they should be much more dispursed.
My experience with Battle tech in large battles is that LRM units do not hit the head so mechs very ofter, it a very rare thing. I once weathered a lrm carrier shooting me trom range 13 with lrm 20;s and never making a head hit and not pentrating the armor of my mech.
Moreover a LRm unit head critting a mech is extreamly RARE, I had seen this happen very regualrry, with assault mechs succuming to a head hit well before they have taken internal structure hits.
I belive the problem is the number genrators that are used in this game and they are set to cause these things. Playing arround with several numer genrators and a probability coulter i am seeing a huge trend towards higher numbers and especially head crits. If this is the way the game is run then ok let us know up front that the to hit table and location of damamge table are not standard battletech.
If the standard talble are being used then thier is a problem with the random number genrator or the genrator is screwing the results toward these out comes where cluster wepons will tend to hit one location and the head is hit more often than it should be.......
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Wolfshayde
Sergeant Major
Reged: 05/29/06
Posts: 326
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Re: Lrm location hits
[Re: OgreMagi]
#146634 - 05/04/07 04:46 PM (24.158.140.19)
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OgreMagi, although this game has a lot in common with CBT, it follows very different rules in a great many things...this issue being but one of the many
Wolf
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OgreMagi
Corporal
Reged: 02/17/06
Posts: 54
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Re: Lrm location hits
[Re: Wolfshayde]
#146639 - 05/04/07 07:50 PM (72.51.166.102)
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ok i get that neveron is not BT, but still the game combat system is the same. the fact that a lrm 15 and a lrm 20 unit can head crit a mech in ONE SHOT is just wrong, hey thats what gauss rifles are for.
still after playing withthe number genrators i see that is could be easily fixed, by altering the to hit tables.
double the numbers, make the average spread larger. take a standard battle tech damae location chart and change it from 12 to 24, the number i get from it make head hits less likly and ould fixe the golden lrm salvo effect... however if the admins are satifyed with the present system then i suggest that everyone start using lrm boats, ontos,tx lrm, tx l2, hunters ect and just keep them manned with fair gunners
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cbtgod
Major
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 1405
Loc: IN A BOX UNDER A HOUSE
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Re: Lrm location hits
[Re: OgreMagi]
#146649 - 05/05/07 08:50 AM (70.126.44.124)
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yes yes first we bitch about idf now lrms next week it will be med lasers?
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yes its a toad, if you didnt know that you dont know anything about cbt
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Toscotto
Lieutenant
Reged: 02/02/06
Posts: 460
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Re: Lrm location hits
[Re: cbtgod]
#146660 - 05/05/07 03:20 PM (12.215.87.252)
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no duhh! med lasers are so last week.
it is small laser's turn. too long has this tool of massive destruction been overlooked.
I say that we make all small lasers 2x range but zero damage. the effects of the weapon change to any succesful hit causes the crew to be stunned for 2 rounds, as we all know the damaging effects of looking into lasers can be. As a side effect you can activate the "barcode reader" special ability of the newly modified small laser. This allows you to "price check" the target gaining intel on whether or not your opponent is a dp whore or not.
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The question is not how far, the question is do you possess the constitution, the depth of faith, to go as far as needed?
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Wolfshayde
Sergeant Major
Reged: 05/29/06
Posts: 326
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Re: Lrm location hits
[Re: Toscotto]
#146676 - 05/05/07 11:39 PM (24.158.140.19)
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LOL Tocotto
Ogremage...you argue that the combat system is the same as CBT, however you then complain because Neveron combat system is not following the CBT system....ergo you logic is flawed here
once again, Neveron is BASED upon the Clasic Battle Tech Rules.but is NOT the same, Neveron is Different
further clarifying example
Many of todays movies are BASED upon written novels, but the translation to the big screen makes Directors and screen play writers use Artistic license and change many things.
So it is with Neveron
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Toscotto
Lieutenant
Reged: 02/02/06
Posts: 460
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Re: Lrm location hits
[Re: Wolfshayde]
#146701 - 05/06/07 06:19 PM (12.215.87.252)
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no kidding, like starship troopers
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The question is not how far, the question is do you possess the constitution, the depth of faith, to go as far as needed?
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Wolfshayde
Sergeant Major
Reged: 05/29/06
Posts: 326
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Re: Lrm location hits
[Re: Toscotto]
#146705 - 05/07/07 01:43 AM (24.158.140.19)
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ya just know Heinliens rolling over in his grave
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mwmoss
Private
Reged: 11/20/06
Posts: 49
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Re: Lrm location hits
[Re: Wolfshayde]
#146785 - 05/11/07 08:57 AM (149.101.1.127)
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Wolfshayde, what Ogre is saying is correct, though maybe not well articulated.
In short form.
If the rules for LRMs here match CBT, then to many head hits are occuring when using LRMs. (Probably due to a messed up/missused random number generator.)
If not using CBT, then Ogre would like to know the table/formula being used to assign hit location for LRMs.
Personally, I do think the random number generator being used is not to good. I FFA alot and it seems that either you get a unit that hits alot or not at all and it really doesn't matter how good the pilot is. Ill hit most evey shot needing 9s and 10s all night or I will miss a majority of shots all night when needing only 6s.
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I will live forever or die trying.
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kakashi
Newbie
Reged: 05/02/07
Posts: 13
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Re: Lrm location hits
[Re: mwmoss]
#146834 - 05/13/07 04:31 PM (71.112.69.231)
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sometimes your lucky, sometimes your not. go to vegas and you'll get the same effect. statistically speaking, a 2gun pilot is garunteed to hit more often than a 4 gun. but, in short battles (ffa is a short battle) the 4 gun can still hit more often than the 2gun. it's only after vast amounts of rolls do you truly see that the 2 gun will hit more often than the 4 gun.
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wonko
Sergeant Major
Reged: 03/08/06
Posts: 217
Loc: alpena MI
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Re: Lrm location hits
[Re: kakashi]
#146840 - 05/13/07 11:11 PM (24.231.175.192)
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i think it's more than lrm's.....city arty has head critted more of my mechs than i have lost to actual combat, i have had a mech get hit in the head 3 rounds in a row by city arty, i have also lost mechs to one lrm-15 salvo where all the missles hit the head and it was the first shot of combat.....
i definately agree that something is broken.....
in one week i lost 8 mechs to head crits with little or no damage anywhere else.....
this is not the kind of thing that is just a statistical anomoly(or however you spell that shit), it happens enuf that it is a full out trend.....
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IN THE LAND OF THE BLIND, EVEN UGLY CHICKS CAN GET LAID
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kakashi
Newbie
Reged: 05/02/07
Posts: 13
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Re: Lrm location hits
[Re: wonko]
#146844 - 05/14/07 02:02 AM (71.112.69.231)
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hm.. artillery/idf ... the shots come from the sky so it'd make sense that it has a higher chance to hit your head. i haven't seen the lrm thing happen. maybe i'm just that lucky 
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sdog
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 1787
Loc: europe
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Re: Lrm location hits
[Re: kakashi]
#146856 - 05/14/07 12:14 PM (139.174.165.206)
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the less damage a weapon per hit location does the more likely it is that it head caps a unit before it is killed to a torso destruction. Just because the head is the weakest point of a mech.
another effect is that people notice head hits while they forget hits to other locations. Unless you actully write down a statistic you will most likely overestimate the number of head hits.
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I realised soon that the fun part of playing a military game is that we have lots of lifes and in the end knowone dies, ...
- Skaven, ArmA modding community
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BurnRanger
Private
Reged: 12/20/04
Posts: 29
Loc: Germany
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Re: Lrm location hits
[Re: sdog]
#146898 - 05/16/07 09:32 AM (62.226.74.76)
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But then, IF you follow CBT rules the head shouldn't be hit as often as any other location.
For example with 2 6-sided dices there's a 1/36 chance to roll a 12 (6+6) for a headshot, while there's a 6/36 chance to roll a 7 (1+6, 6+1, 2+5...) for a CT hit plus the 1/36 chance to roll a 2 (1+1) for CT critical. Headshots in Neveron tho happen a lot more often.
So it shouldn't have anything to do with more shots making it more likely to head cap.
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To err is human, to forgive divine. Well, forgivness is between them and god. Our job is to arrange the meeting.
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sdog
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 1787
Loc: europe
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Re: Lrm location hits
[Re: BurnRanger]
#146899 - 05/16/07 11:03 AM (139.174.165.206)
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Quote:
Headshots in Neveron tho happen a lot more often.
can you prove that?
i mean that's something people claim for years ongoing. typicaly without proving it. And it used to be almost* completely pointless. I doubt WW changed the pseudo random number generator.
There are however to factors in neveron that make Head cap deaths more likely in nev. 1stly the unusually high number of high end assault mechs. For all destroyed MAD-4A the chance to have died to a headshot is more likely than for a WHM-6R. Since the MAD takes much more damage before being cored. The second effect is that Snipers and LRM are main defensive weapons, most damage dealt to mechs is such spread out damage.
There's however a very strong Thing working about headcaps in nev: 10 points of armour. Making PPC or AC10 hits to the head no likely casulties. Thirdly nev's good gunners make partial cover headshots. In PC there's a 1/6th chance for a head hit. However unlike BT the chance of being hit in PC is still rather high.
To sum it up, i consider this constant headcap chance discussion as a psychological phenomenon. Not a game engine problem. That's unless someone *proves* it. Pretty easy actually, just log all hits and hit locations and analyse the data.
* with one exception, in the example output data of the RNG a higher chance of having the same number in a row was present. Wich could cause a few more headhshots as a 12 for to hit and a 12 for location means headshot, while a 1 for to hit followed by a 1 for location usually means nothing. This occcured however not often enough to have a significiant impact on actual head hit chances.
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I realised soon that the fun part of playing a military game is that we have lots of lifes and in the end knowone dies, ...
- Skaven, ArmA modding community
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kakashi
Newbie
Reged: 05/02/07
Posts: 13
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Re: Lrm location hits
[Re: BurnRanger]
#146900 - 05/16/07 11:03 AM (71.112.69.231)
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but what are you being headcapped by? idf/lrms. lrms are like shotguns, ones eventually able to hit your head. idf, well again, it comes from the sky so i wouldn't complain so much about it. then there's also the fact you got more head armor than cbt. be happy about it :P maybe ur just unlucky.
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cbtgod
Major
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 1405
Loc: IN A BOX UNDER A HOUSE
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Re: Lrm location hits
[Re: kakashi]
#146903 - 05/16/07 04:47 PM (70.126.44.124)
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man be glad we dont have lbx in this game lol now thats something to bitch about.
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yes its a toad, if you didnt know that you dont know anything about cbt
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HLC
Sergeant
Reged: 10/10/05
Posts: 165
Loc: UK
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Re: Lrm location hits
[Re: cbtgod]
#146911 - 05/17/07 02:00 AM (213.83.117.170)
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yesterday i was firing LRM5 MKii from approx 18 towers at a mech for approx 25 turns, not one missle hit the head so this throws your theory out the window
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kakashi
Newbie
Reged: 05/02/07
Posts: 13
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Re: Lrm location hits
[Re: HLC]
#146912 - 05/17/07 03:45 AM (71.112.69.231)
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luck wins!
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mwmoss
Private
Reged: 11/20/06
Posts: 49
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Re: Lrm location hits
[Re: kakashi]
#146914 - 05/17/07 08:43 AM (149.101.1.127)
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Isn't there a good gunner dp option as well? Makes 2s and 3s become 11s and 12s? Or is that just to hit?
And yes, the fact that we have kept pretty much to CBT rules EXCEPT for skill caps at -2/-2 has a HUGE affect on the game. In CBT there are supposed to be maybe a half dozen -2/-2 pilots in all the universe. Not only do most lvl 6 and above that have been around any time have that many, they usually have better. if you don't think THAT causes a problem....
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I will live forever or die trying.
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HLC
Sergeant
Reged: 10/10/05
Posts: 165
Loc: UK
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Re: Lrm location hits
[Re: mwmoss]
#146916 - 05/17/07 10:04 AM (213.83.117.170)
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hehe my lvl 5 has a -4/-4... theres no problem with that it rocks :P
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cbtgod
Major
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 1405
Loc: IN A BOX UNDER A HOUSE
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Re: Lrm location hits
[Re: mwmoss]
#146917 - 05/17/07 02:16 PM (70.126.44.124)
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well act a -2 -2 pilots would be a -4-4 with pulse weapons etc, the best we have in our 3025 merc game is a 3-3 lol yep you dont hit dick in these old school 3025 games lol
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yes its a toad, if you didnt know that you dont know anything about cbt
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mwmoss
Private
Reged: 11/20/06
Posts: 49
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Re: Lrm location hits
[Re: cbtgod]
#146922 - 05/18/07 09:09 AM (149.101.1.127)
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No, its not a problem for the empires that have awsome pilots like that HLC. However, the whole CBT game system is fairly well balanced. When you change such a major component like pilot skills without changing anything else, the whole system gets out of whack. It sure is fun for you and anyone else who has awsome pilots like that to use. However, how do you think some poor newbie just getting to Lvl 5 feels when you two get in a war? You blow away everything he has no matter what he does. Terrain makes not difference. The tactical skill of the newbie makes no difference. If you have LOS and are in range of something, you will hit it. Thats not how the game is supposed to work. Neveron is way broken. People complain about how how all these things might help - small maps, remove idf, etc. - all very good ideas. But it all goes back to changing a system that WORKS.
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I will live forever or die trying.
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cbtgod
Major
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 1405
Loc: IN A BOX UNDER A HOUSE
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Re: Lrm location hits
[Re: mwmoss]
#146923 - 05/18/07 09:46 AM (70.126.44.124)
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well i agree with mwmoss this game favors the attacker and does nothing for the defender? this game has never been balanced and never will be its a bizz now not a game. yeah idf was really all we had for defense and im not talking about fagmo snipers. so now people will build lrm x2 or ppc x2 towers and people will bitch about those. people do nothing but bitch about the way tent city hd only empires are making it hard to do battles. DUUUUUUUUUH ITS CALLED TACTICS?. skill ups were done to promote people to donate more and thats the bottom line. if you dont donate this game is very hard to play but can be done. the transfer caps are a joke the 10 mil a dp is a joke. the skill ups right after you skill down are a joke neveron has gone from a great game to a joke plain and simple. just look at how many empty slots are in the factions. and you should see some of the reviews of this game talk about brutal. wws is doing the best he can but countless people have offerd to help and not been heard. people have written help files and not been paid the dp they were promised. bottom line all this game is about is donations. and yes everyone knows about the great 3042 another if you dont donate you will sit at a snails pace in that game to. the war system is borked big time with bugs and people using those bugs to thier advantage. noob island is a big time joke you have vet players beating on noobs yeah real way to welcome new players? no the i do it to teach them how to play, really then let them surender you. and i used to have the uber dp whore multi pilots had a -5-5 once and a bunch of -3-3. training is another joke. i had a buddy start this game and quit in a week why? all his little jeeps skilled up in 2 days? to 5-5 what kind of bs is that? 2 days is not a nev year the response from seth some times this happens. guess what seth you full of shit he started another 2 empires for me and they all skilled up?
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yes its a toad, if you didnt know that you dont know anything about cbt
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