cbtgod
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 1813
Loc: IN A BOX UNDER A HOUSE
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skills that could work SM
#164161 - 02/18/12 05:57 AM (72.77.197.22)
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ive played CBT for around 27-28yrs and i can tell you neg gunners are few at best. the players in general have been spoiled by these uber gods of neveron. i propose to SM a skill cap. keep the war skill checks as is. poss remove the new skill training prog and go back to the old. this will take away the skill raid abuse. hard code in skill 0 or 1 will be the best ever period. hard code in best skill by training will be 3. we would still have skill ups but at a longer time frame. skill ups would be fine. you would have the choice to train your units as you see fit. not gunners getting better in driver etc. the main problem with the skill ups is it has never worked right. if this was to be fixed then it wouldnt be an issue. so what would this mean it would mean SM would do a pilot resett to the numbers above. no more stupid uber pilots. the entire game would all be on the same page. i think this would work. give players the choices they want or dont that would be up to them. right now im not allowed any choices in training, which to say the least is like having an empire wearing handcuffs. l8rs DABOSS
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yes its a toad, if you didnt know that you dont know anything about cbt
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marauderch
Corporal
Reged: 12/20/09
Posts: 71
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Re: skills that could work SM
[Re: cbtgod]
#164166 - 02/18/12 03:42 PM (24.225.116.227)
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There are no negative gunners in CBT. A 0 rated mechwarrior is about a once in a generation warrior. There are also not 7 and 8 rated pilots in CBT, I believe. The reason why DP mechs dominate this game so massively is because of these extraordinarly skillled pilots. Multi-range towers were created, I believe, to combat the range of a handful of mechs in the game that could easily destroy tower at ranges were they couldn't hit back. Now that feature has been removed, though.
IMO, Neveron would be more fun and and better off if unit skills were capped between 0 and 6. Mechs would still be powerful, but not overpowerful. It would also compress the ranges that battles were fought at and hopefully require more skill into winning those fights.
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buc
Captain
Reged: 08/12/05
Posts: 710
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Re: skills that could work SM
[Re: marauderch]
#164167 - 02/18/12 04:50 PM (222.155.170.187)
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In most higher level wars, mechs are not used very often at all. I would say they are far from overpowerful already. Mass vehicles have been the order of the day.
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Katrar
Major
Reged: 09/15/02
Posts: 1312
Loc: Seattle, WA USA, Terra
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Re: skills that could work SM
[Re: buc]
#164170 - 02/18/12 05:18 PM (24.17.137.174)
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Make worst skill 5 (Avg Inner Sphere gunner).
Allow to train to 3.
Allow to skill down through combat to 1.
There you have a system where every unit is at least marginally viable right out the gate. A 5 gun unit can contribute. A well trained army at ~3 will provide a substantial edge over that 5 gun green/recruit army but still most likely take losses. And a veteran, combat experienced army of ~1-2 would be vastly superior to the recruit army, and provide an edge over the trained one.
Viola, skill problems fixed.
It stupid to even have skill rating 7/8 in a CBT game, unless you are portraying people that have never even seen a battlemech or tank climbing in one and figuring it out in the middle of their first battle. That's just dumb.
So make everything base skill 5, pretty much like it is in CBT.
That all said, the costs associated with "new training experience" are ridiculously out of control. This suggestion is outside of that.
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HoC Gaming - Come war with us!
The HoC Archive - Neveron's definitive historical document
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cbtgod
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 1813
Loc: IN A BOX UNDER A HOUSE
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Re: skills that could work SM
[Re: Katrar]
#164172 - 02/18/12 07:50 PM (72.77.197.22)
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yes we have neg gunners in cbt with pulse weapons etc. l8rs DABOSS
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yes its a toad, if you didnt know that you dont know anything about cbt
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ghostrider
Lieutenant
Reged: 03/26/10
Posts: 522
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Re: skills that could work SM
[Re: cbtgod]
#164173 - 02/18/12 08:03 PM (70.173.25.223)
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boss, that isnt neg gunners, that is neg to hit because of systems.
As for katrars suggestion. I will agree to it. Think 0 should be the cap, but agree with the rest of it. I can see the 7/8 gunners in training, but not in warfare, though this game will not allow reserve pilots soon.
Also said before that your military should have a way to weed out the soldiers that will not get past 7 gun, so the 6 worse skill makes sense.
To my knowledge, the large empires use massed units of unskilled units because ai bites as well as being too effective.
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cbtgod
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 1813
Loc: IN A BOX UNDER A HOUSE
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Re: skills that could work SM
[Re: ghostrider]
#164179 - 02/19/12 06:55 AM (72.77.197.22)
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either way the way training is now is pretty much a joke. im not allowed to do anything but look at pretty colors? what happend to the freedom of choice in neveron? seems more and more of these changes are nothing more than more ways to control players empires. l8rs DABOSS
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yes its a toad, if you didnt know that you dont know anything about cbt
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Cray
General
Reged: 07/27/01
Posts: 4131
Loc: North America
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Re: skills that could work SM
[Re: marauderch]
#164182 - 02/19/12 08:35 AM (97.101.96.171)
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Quote:
There are also not 7 and 8 rated pilots in CBT, I believe.
Gunnery 6, Piloting 7 appears among "green" Inner Sphere MechWarriors. Per pg40 Total Warfare, infantry sometimes have skills as bad as 8 for anti-Mech attacks.
Also per pg41, under skill improvement, the minimum board game skill is 0.
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Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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buc
Captain
Reged: 08/12/05
Posts: 710
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Re: skills that could work SM
[Re: Cray]
#164186 - 02/19/12 01:38 PM (222.155.170.187)
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I like neg gunners. Still miss my -5/-5 grf-dest 
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dieaready
Corporal
Reged: 11/15/05
Posts: 74
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Re: skills that could work SM
[Re: buc]
#164195 - 02/19/12 04:25 PM (60.241.43.86)
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I don't think -1,-1 gunners are broken, and no, I don't have any in my emps. I think a nice range would be from -1 to 6 or 7.
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In the land of the Insane, the Sane man is Crazy.
If Brute Force does not work, you are not using enough.
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buc
Captain
Reged: 08/12/05
Posts: 710
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Re: skills that could work SM
[Re: dieaready]
#164197 - 02/19/12 05:14 PM (210.86.1.168)
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TBH, with skillups, it really is a moot point. GL getting anything down to neg gunned, and even better luck keeping it there.
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Hythos
Sergeant
Reged: 05/09/10
Posts: 148
Loc: USA
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Re: skills that could work SM
[Re: buc]
#164307 - 02/21/12 12:06 PM (137.78.94.87)
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Actually, the "no neg gunner" isn't accurate... The Pilot and Gunnery skill-modifier is a composite of the Mechwarrior (game) skill sets...
I'll write what many of you know like the back of your hand:
Intuition + Reflex = Mech Pilot / Gunnery base
Mech Pilot / Gunnery skill-level: Linear, 0+ (no max skill-level, based on pilot life, leveling, skill-ups)
Battletech skill modifier = 18 - Base - Skill level
SO, take the following pilot:
Build: 3
Intiution: 6
Reflex: 6
Charisma: 1
Learn: 5
Piloting: Battlemech - 5
Gunnery: Battlemech - 7
Small Arms - 3
The following Battletech game modifiers would result:
Piloting: Battlemech (((18 - 6) - 6) - 5)= [1] (-3 to-hit)
Gunnery: Battlemech (((18 - 6) - 6) - 7)= [-1] (-5 to-hit)
Small Arms (((18 - 6) - 6) - 3)= [2] (-1 to-hit)
SO what does all of this mean?
Assuming pilots would be maxed at 6 Intuition and Reflexes, and did not possess Exceptional Attributes...
A skilled pilot (0-pilot, -4 to-hit) would be capable of shooting at a target moving 54kph (~150m over 10 seconds), also while having ran full speed, with no penalty/bonus. Reasonably impressive, but no where near impossible - clearly something that capable pilots SHOULD be able to do so - and therefor, is not unreasonable.
Adding a little more complexity is where extreme pilots leave the heard: timing shots to fire through trees (+1) at that target moving 54-65kph(+2), while at full speed (+2)... Gets hard, but with practice, still, isn't impossible. IF you've learnt how to by doing something 100 times, you can do it reliably 10x more.
Negative pilots are OK, in my opinion.
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Phred
Sergeant
Reged: 01/20/12
Posts: 174
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Re: skills that could work SM
[Re: Hythos]
#164309 - 02/21/12 12:34 PM (161.184.189.112)
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For everyone looking at CBT rules for gunnery, keep in mind the map sets look NOTHING like Neveron maps (well, at the ends of the spectrum). This is why people want the neg gun. Not so we can pwn noobs, but so we can have a battle in under 22hrs.
There are so many things wrong with this game and community, it currently has no chance.
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DeathStar
Corporal
Reged: 02/05/11
Posts: 59
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Re: skills that could work SM
[Re: Phred]
#164343 - 02/21/12 03:46 PM (74.193.51.221)
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I agree with Phred. Neverons terrain is why neg gun is needed. With Mechs attacking, with Towers and Vees defending as well.
Good Lwers know they may be attacked so they get checks to set defenders to be neg gun too. If you are active and PLAY the WAR game then you have a chance. If you dont choose to play that way then you have ENFORCER emps you hire to defend your empire or Pay to have ppl leave you alone.
These are all options in gameplay.
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cbtgod
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 1813
Loc: IN A BOX UNDER A HOUSE
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Re: skills that could work SM
[Re: DeathStar]
#164378 - 02/21/12 07:43 PM (72.77.197.22)
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whos was talking about mechwarrior? im talking aboout battletech. Hythos you have compared apples and oranges. l8rs DABOSS
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yes its a toad, if you didnt know that you dont know anything about cbt
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rantamplan
Sergeant Major
Reged: 03/26/03
Posts: 341
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Re: skills that could work SM
[Re: cbtgod]
#164646 - 03/05/12 08:22 AM (193.144.201.49)
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I agree on most things said here.
I would go for a 0-6 skill range but I could play with (-1)-5 or 1-5 too, I would go with 0-6 becouse it will provide a better range skills, I understand thata gunnery 6 units its a little weak, but i have used them in the past and you can use them (as fooder if anything), also if someone catch you completelly unprepared forwar... hey, you are unprepared, bad luck I wont gift you copetent pilots becouse of your kind face.
Other than that i completelly agree with the fact that shitty terrain should be removed, not only that it takes ages to fight in a messy terrain but that I hate when a full ofensive in a huge war gets delayed for hours just becouse a vehicle in a hole cant get out of the map (how it got in there anyway?) and evenmy forces cant get there to kill it either.
in most cases I have thougth that if there existed a "conceed defeat" button i would have pressed it. Just kill all my units, give the repand the skill downs to the enemy units and leave the zone free for being able toattack it again.
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