rantamplan
Sergeant Major
Reged: 03/26/03
Posts: 341
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Nev strange war
#165842 - 07/01/12 03:52 AM (62.42.4.114)
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I just got dowed,
Dowed by a empire that can't miss a shot, he has -15 gunnery snipers, -11 gunnery ONTOS and -8 gunnery hunters (that i have seen so far).
And thats regular gunnery for all his units, I mean hunters range from -5 to -8 so they cant actually miss.
Im not sure if thats what you were looking for when you implemented this new training system SM.
SM, Sincerelly, stop this... this si beyond what anyone would want, shut the game down and start from scratch or do something because this is completelly rididulous.
--Mantis--
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KJI_3x6
Lieutenant
Reged: 09/11/06
Posts: 648
Loc: Minnesota, North Korea
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: rantamplan]
#165844 - 07/01/12 10:55 AM (50.137.208.91)
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mantis, sm doesn't care.
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My d*** rumble in the jungle; your d*** got touched by your uncle.
My d*** double feature screen; your d*** went straight to dvd.
ME > you
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buc
Captain
Reged: 08/12/05
Posts: 710
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: KJI_3x6]
#165845 - 07/01/12 04:41 PM (219.89.232.216)
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Just think though, you kill one, it has high BV.
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rantamplan
Sergeant Major
Reged: 03/26/03
Posts: 341
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: buc]
#165848 - 07/03/12 03:26 AM (193.144.201.40)
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JFYI
yesterday i politically stated my concerns to Sm about this issue.
from the conversation we had i felt that Sm finds OK that people is able to chosse their best gunners for having armies of -6 gunnery average and that this is ok.
(please Sm correct this if I got the wrong idea).
i cant agree with this, it is completelly against the spirit of BT. if this si going to be the case i found a way of reducing server load drastically:
Sugestion: just remove pilot skills and remove 2D6 rolling in combat, just asume that every unit allways hit its target and thats it.
the case is going to be the same, really soon there is going to be no chance for people that like to fight "tactical" battles with mechs, i mean: ¿whats the point on having fast and elusive mechs that are ussually playedtaking advantegous positions against enemy forces when enemys will hit you anyway?
Previously you could grab a lance/company of ostrocs and fight a vehicle force jumping from PC to PC or from woods to woods. forget about that because now every empire will have -10 gunnery pilots that will hit you doesnt matter what you do.
this is completelly wrong.
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Katrar
Major
Reged: 09/15/02
Posts: 1312
Loc: Seattle, WA USA, Terra
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: rantamplan]
#165849 - 07/03/12 03:35 AM (24.17.137.174)
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Everything that came out of "code fist" is now a feature, there's no way in hell SM is going to admit anything that was coded last January was in any way in error, either in design or coding.
-30 gun mechs are Nev's future. Legitimacy is Nev's past.
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HoC Gaming - Come war with us!
The HoC Archive - Neveron's definitive historical document
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Katrar
Major
Reged: 09/15/02
Posts: 1312
Loc: Seattle, WA USA, Terra
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: Katrar]
#165850 - 07/03/12 03:37 AM (24.17.137.174)
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Also, Mantis, SM doesn't know the slightest bit about BT, BT combat, strategy, tactics, unit strengths, weaknesses, or for that matter fun. CBT is something alien to him, and even now he thinks going out of his way to learn about the system that underscores his entire game is a waste of time. He actually said, not too long ago, why waste the time learning CBT when he has experts in the community that already know it. Game's over, except for that final unplug. Just a matter of time.
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HoC Gaming - Come war with us!
The HoC Archive - Neveron's definitive historical document
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buc
Captain
Reged: 08/12/05
Posts: 710
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: Katrar]
#165855 - 07/04/12 02:30 AM (222.155.175.148)
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Katrar and Mantis. Stop being so petty.
Quote:
HNT-WOB OK 0.00 715 -41 / -48 Dueling Stable - -
There is nothing wrong here at all, you're all just dreaming.
Quote:
HNT-WOB OK 0.00 715 -6 / -42 Dueling Stable - -
Just a bunch of bitter old 'veterans', refusing to move on from a game you no longer enjoy
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ShadowMasterCM
Captain
Reged: 12/07/05
Posts: 916
Loc: New York
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: buc]
#165857 - 07/04/12 09:02 AM (24.103.210.226)
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rantamplan/ Mantis: I never said that I found those sort of gunner acceptable.
what I said was this
Quote:
[15:10] <NoobieDoobieDoo_afk> yeah there was initially no training skill cap put in place
[15:10] <NoobieDoobieDoo_afk> the thought process was that the skill up program would keep things in check
[15:11] <NoobieDoobieDoo_afk> that will be tweaked as needed after we gather some more info on the overall results
[15:11] <NoobieDoobieDoo_afk> at this point an active player is skimming off the best veh soldiers and placing them into his best tanks
[15:11] <NoobieDoobieDoo_afk> so you can see some very good skilled units
'Visable' progress will be slow, as there is no longer an staff of experienced coders working full time on Neveron. This has been stated very clearly on multiple occassions. Not sure why so many people are having an issue remembering this fact. This does not mean that there is no progress being made on the game. I still work on some aspect of the game pretty much with every free hour that I have.
However I still have to put in my hours at work to pay my personal bills, and I have my only daughters wedding coming up in April 2013, which is taking up more and more of my limited free time. So expect my 'visable' presence to become even more limted as that day approachs as well.
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rantamplan
Sergeant Major
Reged: 03/26/03
Posts: 341
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: ShadowMasterCM]
#165860 - 07/05/12 01:23 AM (193.144.201.40)
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Thanks for the clarification Sm
And sorry for making you dig into your logs,
But sincerelly, after re-reading that I get the same conclusion i wrote here:
"from the conversation we had i felt that Sm finds OK that people is able to chosse their best gunners for having armies of -6 gunnery average and that this is ok."
From your words i get that "at this point it is ok"
and maybe I should have added
"in the long run we will see".
So my conclusion is: "there is no plans to correct this in the short term".
Maybe thats not yous full point of view but those were my conclusions from teh talk we had and hope you find them reasonables.
Anyway. thanks for the clarification.
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Katrar
Major
Reged: 09/15/02
Posts: 1312
Loc: Seattle, WA USA, Terra
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: rantamplan]
#165861 - 07/05/12 02:28 AM (24.17.137.174)
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This is the guy who thought login abuse was legit, of course these ultra pilots are going to be ok with him.
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HoC Gaming - Come war with us!
The HoC Archive - Neveron's definitive historical document
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Rallis
Private
Reged: 03/14/12
Posts: 34
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: Katrar]
#165863 - 07/05/12 02:59 PM (99.26.68.88)
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shadowmasterCM i will send you 1 WHOLE DOLLAR for you to unplug the game. THATS A GREAT DEAL 
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Gunner
Sergeant Major
Reged: 07/11/04
Posts: 364
Loc: Hurricane Capital of the World
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: Rallis]
#165864 - 07/05/12 05:35 PM (173.78.122.11)
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In the words of that crazy villain from RoboCop, "I'd buy that for a dollar!"
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It's a bird...It's a plane...Goddamit! It's another NUKE!
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KJI_3x6
Lieutenant
Reged: 09/11/06
Posts: 648
Loc: Minnesota, North Korea
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: Gunner]
#165865 - 07/05/12 11:56 PM (50.137.208.91)
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that wasn't the villain, that was the dude on that show they kept showing where the old fat dude was surrounded by sleezy whores.
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My d*** rumble in the jungle; your d*** got touched by your uncle.
My d*** double feature screen; your d*** went straight to dvd.
ME > you
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Mithrander
Private
Reged: 01/13/04
Posts: 40
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: KJI_3x6]
#165874 - 07/09/12 02:12 AM (71.82.53.226)
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So let me get this straight. The new skill program didnt work right from day one, so another screwy program was made to attempt to fix the new problem.[15:10] yeah there was initially no training skill cap put in place
[15:10] the thought process was that the skill up program would keep things in checkWell the law of unintended consequences has hit again, with the result being all the soldiers I got to 2 then stored at skill 3 are no longer skilled. I cannot rely on average soldiers to stay skilled in storage, so I must get some crazy negative guys just so they wont skillup too much before I need them. Dont hate me for my neg soldiers, hate the game.
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ghostrider
Lieutenant
Reged: 03/26/10
Posts: 522
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: Mithrander]
#165890 - 07/11/12 11:31 PM (70.173.10.66)
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I said that the new training system would produce skills that were out of this world when it first was implemented, but got told that getting to even a neg 4 was hard. There would be no way for someone to get into the neg 10 area and keep it long.
For a while I have said there needs to be a cap. Most people said that was stupid, that there should be no limit to how far in the neg someone can go. With the old training, I can see skills not progressing past a point without major warring or that unit killing everything in sight.
Now you just rotate soldiers into training units until you find the one that will go to neg. Simply put a limit on how low they can go, and that will solve this issue. I still say 0 should be the best gunnery skill in the game.
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Katrar
Major
Reged: 09/15/02
Posts: 1312
Loc: Seattle, WA USA, Terra
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: ghostrider]
#165898 - 07/12/12 04:41 PM (24.17.137.174)
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Ghostrider, the training program is doing this because of flaws in coding (surprise surprise). As it was explained, and as it was *attempted to be* coded this should not be possible. So if it had been coded competently there would be no ultra skilled pilots. Notice how your skills are still stabilizing at 5-6 gun when not getting these mega pilots? Yeah. That.
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HoC Gaming - Come war with us!
The HoC Archive - Neveron's definitive historical document
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ghostrider
Lieutenant
Reged: 03/26/10
Posts: 522
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: Katrar]
#165907 - 07/14/12 11:03 PM (70.173.10.66)
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even if it was coded right, you would still see rediculous skills. It would not be any where near what is being done now, but still possible.
I dont think they would change the soldiers skill modifiers so that the upper end wasnt so easy to skill down, so limiting what a soldier can get to is the easiest thing at this point.
Simple if/then statement. If skills =< (say -4) then skills = -4.
As for the stabilizing skills, I was thinking it was just me on normal training.. Even the empire with high training is doing the same.
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Katrar
Major
Reged: 09/15/02
Posts: 1312
Loc: Seattle, WA USA, Terra
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: ghostrider]
#165909 - 07/15/12 02:21 PM (24.17.137.174)
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I'll put it quite simply: you're wrong about neg guns. The way they attempted to code it made it more difficult to skill into the negatives than ever before. Exponential increases in difficulty skill by skill was the objective. Randy coded a HUGE HUGE HUGE hole in the logic of this system, which is the problem. By design there should be very few neg gun anythings now.
And yeah, the system still stabilizes very high, due to the skillup formula being separate from (and easier to skill up than skill down past gun 4-6) the skilldown formula.
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HoC Gaming - Come war with us!
The HoC Archive - Neveron's definitive historical document
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ShadowMasterCM
Captain
Reged: 12/07/05
Posts: 916
Loc: New York
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: Katrar]
#165910 - 07/15/12 10:03 PM (24.103.210.226)
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not looking to start a squabble here...but I need to clarify a few issues
1] the old skill up program was always its own seperate program in the past, and still remains as such with the newest version that is running now
2] the 'expotential' aspect of each skill being that much harder to attain / easier to lose is also exactly how the old training / skill programs were coded, and is exactly how the newest training / skill down programs remain coded
the only significant differance between them that I can state for sure*, is that the new training program no longer has a skill cap. The old training program in fact DID have a training cap of 2 skill.
As for any 'HUGE HUGE HUGE hole' type issues that any player is aware of, I have yet to receive a single help ticket on the matter. So if there is some skilled coder out there that has spotted some exploit, Im happy to get together with them and discuss it further. On that note, the most popular 'rumor' is that simply not logging into an empire for X days will produce uber results. Testing so far has proven this to be false.
Further notes on the skill up/ training/ battle checks systems. There are not currently any exemptions to units that have been in recent battle as the old system did. Each of the three programs all run seperately. Skill Ups run against every soldier in an empire one time per NDay. Training runs against every unit in an empire one time per NDay. Battle checks are instantly applied to every unit that earns that check from its active battle, and you could see skill changes occur right in battle.
The exact numbers used to determine each progressive level to attain the next skill I do not have available. There may have been some variations in there that would of course explain some differances in the currently produced results. However we tried to keep them in line with the recalled 'odds' used in the past, and some data was found to help us guide us in that direction.
Randy and Wayward_Son had always approached the game from 2 very different perspectives. Randy had always been less 'generous' and thought players should 'earn' things. Wayward_Son tended to be more generous and gave easier odds and so forth.
Any tweaks in the most recent years made by Wayward_Son would not have been in the older files that we used as referance. They would most likely be included in the version of files on the laptop of Wayward_Son, and as such where not available for the recent server migration process.
The most significant change to the 'checks' system was from the aspect of battle. This is as much a part of the skill issue(s) as anything, yet very few people mention it when discussing this topic
The old system used to earn 'checks' based on units [BV] killed from both empires in the DoW. Exactly how much of a check earned for each unit killed was based on some complex formula that considered factors like what BV ratio existed between the killer unit and the dead unit. After the DoW ended, the total amount of 'checks' earned was then processed against every unit in the entire empire...whether or not those units ever did anything in that DoW or not. This was an awful system that was easily abused in a variety of ways.
Since the changes made during Code Fest in Feb 2012, the battle checks are only earned by units that actually go into battle [crazy I know]. The program was coded so that any unit that goes into battle and fires it weapon, is essentially getting practice at that skill, and so earns checks for that skill. There is no more 'empire wide' checks, or 2X bonus of those checks for the winner and so on.
It was thought that the skill up program would help offset the skill downs awarded from training. Clearly that is not as balanced as we had hoped, and so will need further tweaking until a better balance is found.
If a soldier has a great multi then it would be possible for them to get to uber negative skills. Keeping that soldier alive during combat may not be so easy, as so much about CBT and battle is random rolls and crits and all that. Further the odds to get such a soldier with the uber mults is extremely rare. However if you crush through enough soldiers [aka a L10+ can have 20k+ soldiers on hand] you will find some eventually. We never intended to code 'impossible' into any of this. Very very very difficult, sure.
Any general skill that an empire may be seeing is as much to do with not culling the best pilots as the training level selected. Let also not forget that skill up [the program] had been disabled for several years, and so many people got used to seeing their army at 2 skill minimum from the old training system. There was nothing that ever knocked them back down once 2 was reached. If an empire was war active, and they got that empire wide checks applied, they could get past 2 skill, with nothing offsetting those skills either.
The curent training program when set to higher levels is producing better results on average than a lower setting. It also costs significantly more. Most small empires [aka the noobs] can actually afford Maximum training, as they have few / smaller units [aka cheaper costs] and still get the recently increases Small Empire Subsidy of $500,000. So the 'noobs' generally like this new system as a whole.
* Note the key phrase in that sentance...'that i can state for sure'...and then let me explain something.
As I have stated in a variety of places previously, when we where moving the data from the old servers to the new servers, there where a few issues that we ran into. The largest issue related to the original 'source' code for many of these various programs that ran things like training and tower creation.
Those programs where usually created on an individual workstation or personal laptop, possibly even the desktop system of an Admin at home. That source code file was then transfered over to the actual server and compiled/ installed/ created etc. At that point the original source file would have been deleted, as hard drive space was absolutely critical on the old server set up. The entire game existed on a couple of 36GB [or smaller] hard drives. The logic then was smaller but faster for HDs. Prices for SCSI HDs was not cheap back then, and so Neveron staff tried to get the most bang for the buck so to speak. That however meant constant trimming of files, and other such manual manipulation of the free space on the server HDs. Some of the soruce code was found on one spare HD, some other 'older' versions of the code was actually found on Randys personal computers or old emails between previous Admins.
So the point of all this? The source files that we needed to install these programs onto the new servers...where no where to be found. What does that mean? Rewrite the programs from scratch. This is not as bad as it sounds, as most of these sort or programs do fairly simply tasks, so it is easy enough for someone at Randys skill level to recreate them.
What even the most experienced coder can NOT do is blindly write a piece of code that is perfectly debugged to work on an extremely complex and specific system such as Neveron on the first try. As any experienced coder can tell you, you simply debug and tweak that code and a few tries later, hopefully its running properly.
Now since Randy was creating certain programs from scratch, I took that opportunity to try and incorporate other 'issues' or ideas, mostly developed during the hundreds of past discussions I have had with players.
Hence the newest version of the 'check' system...including changes like the 'war' checks being wiped out, and the lack of a training skill cap. Those items where intentional, with certain assumptions in place.
One such assumption was that the skill up program was as lethal as players would like to think it is. After only 5 months of this new checks system, it is clearly not that lethal. The thought process when rebuilding the 'checks' programs, was that skill ups would help offset training checks. With some units reaching 'negative' skills in training, clearly skill ups is not sufficient to offset massive uber skills. So either skill ups [the program] needs a booster shot or training needs a skill cap coded into it after all.
A second assumption that was made, is about how DP Enhancers actaully impacted the natural mults of any soldier. Most empires only have enhancers on Mechs, and at best a few on Vehs. Since most empires have hoards of Vehs, the few with DP enhancers are not as easily spotted. However the average empire Mech force can be monitored much easier. Many players have reported poor results for their mech forces, especially compared to the Veh pilot results. This may be directly tied to these DP enhancers assumptions. This issue is being looked into and an corrections needed will be made, and players will be compensated for the DP ehnacers.
Now if a unit was able to obtain negative skills from additional checks earned during battle...I think we could all live with those units starting to earn the uber status. A few key points to be made here tho about any existing or future uber skilled unit.
- First they are not invincible...yes they are brutal to fight, but they can and have died in battle.
- Second point to consider is that lone uber unit comes with an uber BV...meaning that when you are able to kill one, the loss to that empire is that much higher. This could be a good thing, or this could be a bad thing...depending on which side of that loss your on.
- Thirdly, the MOST significant factor impacting skill results of these programs is the 'natural multi' of each seperate soldier. A player has NEVER been able to see this value, and still can not. However through various types of systems that involve 'trainers' players have been able to identify the 'dumb' soldiers [who usually got fired] and the 'uber' soldiers, who then got moved from the 'trainer' unit, into a better unit.
This sort of 'culling' is perfectly legal** and the players that have adapted to these new 'checks' systems and that have also used culling techniques with them, have actually found it easier than ever to locate the best skilled soldiers. What army doesnt want better skilled soldiers?
** On an off topic matter, please be sure to read this statement on players who choose to exploit Neveron
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Katrar
Major
Reged: 09/15/02
Posts: 1312
Loc: Seattle, WA USA, Terra
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: ShadowMasterCM]
#165913 - 07/16/12 02:44 AM (24.17.137.174)
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I'm concerned that there appears to be a notion that after a certain cutoff (-20 gun?) retaining ultra gunners goes from working as designed (with likely future adjustment to the skilling program) to exploitation.
There seem to be two likely reasons why an empire would have more crazy gunners than normal, larger numbers of throwaway vees (geckos, jeeps etc) for training, and luck of the always suspect RNG. Did those emps with more, and better, get RNG lucky too? Did they spend more time than me, or most players, fielding larger numbers of gecko armies and saving the good ones? If the code is borked, and this is the only way to get good gunners how is this wrong? Is is a case of "let your empire get good, but don't let it get too good"?
I say this because I have noticed that in most of my empires I ended up with a small number of extra elite gunners through normal gecko training, topping out at less than -10 gun (-4 to -6 or so), but I have one odd ball empire that has like 20 extra elite gunners with gunnery down to the -40s. Not having done anything different between any of my empires, I just got RNG lucky with that one.
Now, there's no -100 gunners in that one, and hundreds is different from my much smaller numbers, but it seems possible, even likely, that if I went balls out trying to find and keep crazy gunners I too would end up with a large stable of them.
This is the sort of thing that becomes "keeping up with the joneses"... Except add in the X factor of being called an exploiter, in a game where ultra gunners are being used every day now and are apparently necessary to survive.
This was obviously not an intentional thing, to allow extreme gunners, but they are now in the game, and people - to my knowledge - get them all the same way. Just, like normal, some are luckier than others, and some try harder or have more resources to make things happen faster than others.
I had heard about the not logging in but discredited it, and now that I read that it's been disproven by you, the game owner, all I see is a system that inherently produces these gunnery levels, and a danger that using a particular range of these levels will be punishable.
What's worse, getting punished by admin, or getting punished by elite war empires that are armed with these pilots? =/
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Mithrander
Private
Reged: 01/13/04
Posts: 40
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: Katrar]
#165914 - 07/16/12 03:57 AM (75.129.91.61)
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I have been playing this game as an active warrior since 2002 and have never had my units in war benefit from skilldowns, it was always some tower guy or a jeep or gecko that got the skilldown. My active warriors are skilling down from combat. Thats it. Thanks.
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cbtgod
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 1812
Loc: IN A BOX UNDER A HOUSE
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: Mithrander]
#165915 - 07/16/12 07:31 AM (173.78.137.15)
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i have found..... that and others in my faction have tested diff types of training ive had 1 empire train down in mech pilots to -1-0 range this was on max training. ive had another lmfao on max training not get a skill down in 4 weeks. the entire prog is a joke. whats the sense of help tickets anyway? i sent you my info 2 months ago in this forums as asked for. by you SM in a phone conv dick got done about it. and i resent it also. ive got 1 empire with a -22 pilot . this empire was on normal training. as it stands now 95% of the time you cant view the skill report anyway. i dont see any reason to have anything more then -2 in this game period.so i and some of my faction mates have tested your training program and well it dsnt work. far be from me and any other player left in this game to point out the spelling on the wall. and as far as trying to ban players for what you put in the game really? and its not always an attacker that gets these tard pilots some def style empires just fighting a war will get these also. ehhhhhhhhhhhhhh what ever. l8rs DABOSS
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yes its a toad, if you didnt know that you dont know anything about cbt
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ShadowMasterCM
Captain
Reged: 12/07/05
Posts: 916
Loc: New York
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: cbtgod]
#165916 - 07/16/12 08:13 AM (24.103.210.226)
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to clarify...I edited the comment in the other post about the suspected abuse
Quote:
"Those empires are being monitored, and if I collect sufficient evidence that an exploit has been used, they will likely be deleted."
That means I am investigating this and I am looking to make sure that it is in fact more than luck, that these empires have such a significantly larger number of negative skilled soldiers, as well as the extremely higher actual skill levels. What caught my attention initially was the extremes of these soldiers to the entire games overall average, but then next that it was only occurring in a very few select empires.
Kato's example is exactly what I expected to see in the average empire.
DABOSS's example of NOT seeing expected results is an example of an empire that likely has DP enhancers on its units, specifically its Mechs
As I stated in my earlier post, I do not like, nor do I want to see, soldiers with this sort of skill, especially as an average soldier. Yes they exist now, but future tweaks and adjustments can remove them just as easily.
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Is it true? Do you really suck that bad??
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ghostrider
Lieutenant
Reged: 03/26/10
Posts: 522
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: ShadowMasterCM]
#165917 - 07/16/12 10:40 AM (70.173.10.66)
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Without being able to see what the multis is on a soldeir, most of the 1000s of sodliers not doing anything, while a few do, is hard to prove. It could be something as simple as only one in 1k soldiers has the natural multi of (Example) 13. As we all know rng is a very harsh witch in the game, some people may have been lucky to get the magic multis, while the rest of us seem to be cursed without any.
It would be very nice to know if their is a secret, other then replacing soldiers every day, to find them.
Simple logic says you can roll eight 18s on 3d6, three six sided dice added together, in a row, but actually doing it may take years. Some people are lucky and can do it more then once, while others give up in frustration.
Who knows? Maybe someone put in that the multi at say, 13.1313 would get double the chance to skill, just as a joke to the player base. It is possible that some of the newer empires have an advantage over older ones for skill checks. Hell, it could be the emperors multi is being used for checks, instead of the actual soldiers. Doubt it, but possible.
Now having warriors that dont skill has been a part of the game i have run into alot. The ones that kill everything, but never seem to skill down, but yet the stealth towers soldiers do, but stop once they are moved into a vehicle, has annoyed the hell out of me. But its all part of how things go. You might have to accept that beloved soldiers are not ever gonna be the elite monsters they were in 2003.
Not sure if the degragation of dp multis re-rolls the base everytime it hits or not. This may be why some soldiers dont seem to be as great once they get hit.
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rantamplan
Sergeant Major
Reged: 03/26/03
Posts: 341
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: ghostrider]
#165918 - 07/16/12 11:03 AM (193.144.201.40)
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My experience with the trianing programs says somethign completelly different to what sm is proposing so Ill post here my experiments to see if they help to find teh bug (im pretty sure there is one).
experiment 1: I have a lvl 5 empire with a bat of hunters (36 units), got them into maximun training, loged almost every day, got some decent gunnery (nothing ubber)and some units didnt even skilled down.
Conclusions: things seems to work fine.
Experiment 2: I then loged out and didnt loged in for a week, when i came back I had about 6 ubber gunners (-7 gunnery) some others didnt even skilled down.
conclusion 1: acumulating lot of skills check and running all at a time seems to make the training more efficient.
Conclusion 2: It is possible to identify ubber pilots from shitty pilots.
Experiment 3: I named the ubber pilots and the shitty pilots. i then logged out and then logged in again for another week. When I come back, I found ubber pilots more as they were and got some skill upgrades, but more strange was that 2 previously iddendified shitty pilots now were ubber pilots.
Conclusion 1: I dont believe that this is a matter of luck, a soldier that now got from 7 to -7 must had got lower on previous run SO:
A) system is bugged and the pilot doesnt actually matter, is just that when you have too many checks compared to the amount of units the system get stucks on "suceed" from time to time so the pilot that got the "suceed stuck" improves.
B) system is bugged and it gets stuck on the unit for a long period of time checking the same unit lots of times (checks that should have gone to different unit).
I prefer B) since that would explain too why in the previouos run some "decent" pilots didnt skilled down at all.
Experiment 4: I then moved to my lvl 9 which has about 4K units or so, firts I logeg almost every day, with results comparable to experiment 1.
conclusions: when you roll few skill checks things work as expected.
experiment 5: I then logged out for a week and came back in. while I got better gunners that day by day basics I got NONE negative gunner (bests are a few 0s).
conclusions: same number of checks in a empire that has few number of units producer weirder results than in empires with lots of units.
My overall conclusions are:
Things go weird when you have lots of checks and few number of units. ¿why? not sure.
Something MUST be broken when a 36 units empire with a week of training gets 6 ubber skilled units and a empire with 4K units with the same number of checks gets none.
if I had access to the code and based on my conclusions i would:
A) set a training program in which EVERY check turns into a skill down, run it for a random empire (specially make so you cand estroy it laters) and check if all the units skills down the number of times they should, that way you will check that the units are getting the checks they should.
B) monitorice the trianing program to check if it produces weird behavior when checking large number of checks in small number of units.
C) monitorice the trianing program to check if it gets stuck on "suceed" from time to time.
Edited by rantamplan (07/16/12 11:04 AM)
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ShadowMasterCM
Captain
Reged: 12/07/05
Posts: 916
Loc: New York
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: rantamplan]
#165919 - 07/16/12 12:21 PM (24.103.210.226)
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I do not know the exact odds of a newly created soldier ending up with X value for any multi. It could be 1 in 100, 1 in 250, or 1 in 1,000. The point being that it is determined by the RNG beast that we all know and love.
As anyone with experience knows, when conducting trials or experiments, you must have exact controls in place. Since no player has access to the exact multi of any or all soldiers in any testing being conducted...your pretty much coming to conclusions with fubared data.
In every case where you compare empire A to empire B, you need to remember that empire A has soldiers with a totally different set of multis than that of empire B. Multis are a significant part of the results from any type of checks applied to them.
Now in an effort that players could attempt to run some controlled testing of their own, I would think that you would need to create 2 brand new empires, and set them up exactly, and THEN run what ever variety of tests you see fit. At least from that perspective you will have 2 fresh set of soldiers, newly created under whatever the current code / RNG parameters are currently set to. In another set of testing, you might apply DP enhancers to every soldier in an empire and run a separate set of tests on those 2 empires.
You can not however take an existing empire, which has soldiers from ages ago, mixed in with newly hired soldiers, and soldiers bought with DP that had enhancers to varied degrees and so on. There are just far to many variables in there to make any sound conclusions from the data that would be collected from those empires.
There are also other factors that a player can not see, that will impact results. For example the degrading Enhancers...at what rate do they degrade at? does it return the multi to its original value once totally degraded? Does degrade eat away at natural multis once an enhancer is applied?
I am currently looking into the questions above, and I do not have the answers to them, but they would all impact any research on 'checks' as listed above.
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slaine202
Sergeant Major
Reged: 01/24/03
Posts: 271
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: ShadowMasterCM]
#165920 - 07/16/12 02:55 PM (90.195.145.77)
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OK, I will create a help ticket explaining EXACTLY how to create lots of elite gunners. Guaranteed.
IMO its not an abuse or exploit, its simply poor coding, but I'll let SM decide (and he can then delete my empires or not)
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slaine202
Sergeant Major
Reged: 01/24/03
Posts: 271
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: slaine202]
#165921 - 07/16/12 03:54 PM (90.195.145.77)
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Decided to post the ticket here too, so you can all discuss (easier to format too)
[snipped by ShadowMasterCM - If this is indeed an exploit, it should not be posted on the forums to simply be abused by every player before it can be fixed]
OK, hope that helps, if you test as I have described you should see it clearly.
Actually thinking about it I may have had more than 300 neg gunners, it might have been 300 -3 or better, but whatever, the point is the skillcheck logic is screwed.
It appears that the code forgets to update the current skill value each time through the loop and so all the checks get applied to the initial skill value.
Poor coding, pure and simple.
Btw I have tested this theory in more than one empire (although on a smaller scale) and it checks out every time.
Edited by ShadowMasterCM (07/16/12 05:14 PM)
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Gunner
Sergeant Major
Reged: 07/11/04
Posts: 364
Loc: Hurricane Capital of the World
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: slaine202]
#165922 - 07/16/12 04:30 PM (71.180.217.165)
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Sounds like a bug in the code...color me shocked. It can't be abuse though, or we'd all be deleted since most of us don't log into our empires anymore.
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It's a bird...It's a plane...Goddamit! It's another NUKE!
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ghostrider
Lieutenant
Reged: 03/26/10
Posts: 522
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Re: Nev strange war
[Re: Gunner]
#165923 - 07/17/12 12:06 AM (70.173.10.66)
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damn it. didnt get logged in before sm edited the how to get good skills. I do agree with the reasoning, but for those of us that have stopped or never starting going to the chat channel regularly, it puts us at a dis advantage over the others.
Yes the program is having issues. Ill say it again. Put in a limit on the skills levels and that will stop the issues of uber gunners, but not the actual coding problem, for now. Should be a quick fix.
Though this might be a good way to test the issue of WHY neg gunned mechs are needed. If tanks have the same gunnery skill, it will require people actually use mechs mobility instead of standing and using the neg gunnery to kill units. If tanks cannt miss, then the field is a little more even, since they crit like crazy and getting decent skills on tank crews is hard due to them dieing alot when their vehicle is destroyed. Would bet that if the neg gunned issue for tank crews isnt fixed, you will see people saying modded mechs need to stay or even be allowed to be made again.
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