Fun With _UrbanMech_s

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csadn
07/04/12 12:26 AM
69.30.99.182

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For reasons unknown, the UrbanMech standard model has 11 heat sinks for 7 heat points' worth of weaponry. For reasons even less known, the TR3050 description of the -60 makes reference to a variant which swaps the removable 11th heat sink for a Machine Gun with 0.5 tons of ammo. I decided to see what this swap did for the "PanzerDustbin", and if other swaps might be more useful.

To start with: The basic -60 model, with the AC/10 (10 shots ammo) and Small Laser comes out to a BV2 of 504. Overheat is, as described, a nonissue unless internals have knocked out heat sinks (in which case, the 'Mechjock has bigger fish to fry...).

First experiment: The MG-for-HS mod mentioned above (hereafter designated "UM-R60/MG", or "-60/MG"; I installed the MG in the left arm, and the ammo in the left torso). The end result of this is a BV reduced to 492; the MG adds points to the Offensive BV, but having another critical-space's worth of explosive ammo reduces the Defensive BV by more than the MG's value (-60: 348.15 DBV + 155.76 OBV vs. -60/MG: 331.65 + 160.6). So unless one is facing a lot of Infantry foolish enough to face a 'Mech on a Clear hex, Tip Of The Day: Do not do this. (Replacing the HS with another ton of AC ammo would only make the problem worse -- more explosive ammo, no more firepower to balance it.)

Second experiment: Remove the heat sink, and install that old standby, the Medium Laser (hereafter "-60/ML"; the ML is mounted in the left arm). First notable feature: The ML not only weighs 1 ton and occupies one critical space, but it also generates 3 heat, which when added to the 7 generated by the jump jets, AC, and Small Laser, comes out to a nice even 10 heat points -- exactly equaling the -60/ML's heat-dissipation capacity. Second, and more to the point: The BV actually increases with this mod, to 544 (348.15 + 196.24) -- the ML provides a noticeable increase in firepower, while not adding any explosive material. All in all, a good swap.

Third experiment: As the second experiment, drop the HS for a ML (left arm); but also drop the Small Laser in favor of an additional 0.5 tons armor, maxing the leg armor, and increasing the LTF and RTF locations to 10 each ("-60/ML+"). This one surprised me a bit -- the BV increased to 558 (370.15 + 188.32). Apparently, half-a-ton of armor is worth more than a Small Laser.

Of course, none of this addesses the UrbanMech's real failing -- its awful maneuverability. But to do that would require doing things to it which would require redesignating it "UM-R150", and that's another story....
CF

Oregon: The "Outworlds Alliance" of the United States of America
GiovanniBlasini
07/04/12 02:41 AM
66.75.12.203

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I'm not sure the drop in BV of the MG version really reflects the right balance of added anti-infantry utility versus reduction in survivability: against infantry in a city, I can see that MG as a lifesaver.

Out of curiosity (and I have neither HMP reinstalled under Win8 yet to test, nor SSW), I wonder what also swapping the small laser for a second MG would do or, alternatively, swapping HS#11 for a flamer would do: sure, it seems weird to use a flamer in your own city, but I can see making that work.
Member of the Pundit Caste
"Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that." -- Col. Saul Tigh, BSG2003
Raplet
07/05/12 12:42 AM
68.150.148.233

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What I've wanted to do with an UrbanMech is pull out the AC/10 and use a PPC instead.

With the weight savings you can max out the armor, add 3 medium lasers, 2 MGs with a half ton of ammo, and 1 more heat sink.

PPC give better ranged fire.
Mediums do more damage up close (even though you do miss out on the big hole the AC makes).
And 2 MGs for the infantry that like to play in cities.
You do lose the "I can jump into a fire, while infernoed, and I don't care" aspect of the UM.

According to the program I used, BV is 665. Cost is 1,634,100 C-bills.
scheinlen
07/06/12 09:48 AM
71.229.66.245

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why not swap out the MGs for a pair of small Pulse lasers... that way you would lose all the ammo exsplosion chances...
It is not my job to judge my Enemies, that is there God's job. It is only my duty to arrange the meeting!
Raplet
07/06/12 07:06 PM
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Quote:

why not swap out the MGs for a pair of small Pulse lasers... that way you would lose all the ammo exsplosion chances...





I was keeping it old school. Plus, I'm still not used to the more modern battle tech (All my playing has been done with 1st gen Compendium rules)
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
07/07/12 09:12 AM
108.102.173.211

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I don't like the UrbanMech what so ever, but your PPC version is a far improvement over the original.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
Raplet
07/07/12 10:23 PM
68.150.148.233

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Ever since I first saw an Urbie, I've wondered WTF? The PPC seemed a natural fit.

I played with a group that had persistent mechwarriors (until killed), that kept their randomly assigned mechs (until killed) for all 4 weight classes. One poor guy couldn't get anybody to finish off his AC/20 Urbanmech. Nobody ever got close enough for it to shoot, and they wouldn't bother to try to kill it, going after more dangerous targets.
Karagin
07/08/12 09:48 AM
72.178.85.122

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I don't know...that thing walking around isn't a threat until it gets close enough or the player learns to move it so it gets in the way...

Still the Urbanmech is a specialized mech, not a brawler...it has to be used in the right setting, aka a city or woods/jungle. It is not an open field fast paced attacker. I think a lot of folks tend to forget that the mechs are built to cover a role not just run up and blast each other.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
csadn
07/09/12 01:22 AM
69.30.99.182

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Quote:

I'm not sure the drop in BV of the MG version really reflects the right balance of added anti-infantry utility versus reduction in survivability: against infantry in a city, I can see that MG as a lifesaver.




It isn't; in fact, given how INF take damage (TW 215-6), it's as I said: Unless the INF are foolish enough to be in a Clear hex, the MG is a bad bargain.

Quote:

Out of curiosity (and I have neither HMP reinstalled under Win8 yet to test, nor SSW), I wonder what also swapping the small laser for a second MG would do or, alternatively, swapping HS#11 for a flamer would do: sure, it seems weird to use a flamer in your own city, but I can see making that work.




2nd MG: BV2 487. One loses a point of damage overall for a negligible increase in anti-INF capability.

Flamer: BV2 509. One swaps 5 pts. damage out to 9 hexes for 3 pts. out to 3 hexes; plus, if one is defending a city, burning it down is contraindicated.

It would make more sense to swap for another ton of AC/10 ammo (BV2 534); or the PPC/ML combo with 16 HS (BV2 608), altho' the PPC has minimum-range issues which make it suboptimal for city fights.

I suppose there's a moral here: 'Mechs fight 'Mechs; Infantry fights Infantry....
CF

Oregon: The "Outworlds Alliance" of the United States of America
scheinlen
07/10/12 07:50 PM
71.229.66.245

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Nice idea on the flamer, and the PPC, upgrade that to ER PPC and atleast it can work. But I got to agree I thank as much about this mech as I do a JagerMech or a
JagerMech III...
It is not my job to judge my Enemies, that is there God's job. It is only my duty to arrange the meeting!
Raplet
07/10/12 11:26 PM
68.150.148.233

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I actually think a Jagermech is worse. The only redeeming feature the Jagermech has is all the crazy special munitions available now.

At least an Urbie is the definition of the low cost leader among mechs. I don't think you'll find another mech for under 1.5 Million C-bills.
csadn
07/11/12 01:11 AM
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Quote:

At least an Urbie is the definition of the low cost leader among mechs. I don't think you'll find another mech for under 1.5 Million C-bills.




Not at 30 tons, no -- Hornet comes in at 1.2-and-change million (-151) or 1.4-and-change million (-171), but its heavy weapon is a LRM5. That said, the big costs of a 'Mech are the cockpit and gyro, and the size-cost multiplier, so finding a "cheap" one is nearly impossible to start with.
CF

Oregon: The "Outworlds Alliance" of the United States of America
scheinlen
07/12/12 10:51 AM
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What about the commando and such? cost for that junk is got to be near that...
It is not my job to judge my Enemies, that is there God's job. It is only my duty to arrange the meeting!
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
07/12/12 01:54 PM
107.29.216.45

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I like the Commando far more than the Urbarnmech.

That does not say that I like the Commando its just saying how much I dislike the Urbanmech
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
scheinlen
07/12/12 02:21 PM
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lol I understand, for me I would rather run two roadrunners then a urbanmech...
It is not my job to judge my Enemies, that is there God's job. It is only my duty to arrange the meeting!
csadn
07/15/12 12:15 AM
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Quote:

What about the commando and such? cost for that junk is got to be near that...




Nope -- Commando runs 1,891,250 (-2D) to 1,879,375 (-3A); and the 3050 jobs are even more expensive.
CF

Oregon: The "Outworlds Alliance" of the United States of America
Prince_of_Darkness
08/13/12 08:02 AM
207.224.107.30

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Quote:

Originally posted by casdn:

I suppose there's a moral here: 'Mechs fight 'Mechs; Infantry fights Infantry....




Pretty much. The chance for troops to hold up in buildings and use other forms of cover for field emplacements makes infantry fights in a city an almost infantry/battle armor dedicated fight. Still, it should have that Machine gun; they just pose too much of a threat not to have one "just in case".

And what is with everyone adding a PPC to the damn things anyway? The Urbanmech's entire point is to be as cheap and useful in a city as possible, and the PPCs minimum range and higher cost goes against that completely. It only gets worse the higher tech level you go, as then replacing the small laser for a pulse and the AC/10 for an LB-10 does nothing but net you range and possibilities.
Raplet
08/13/12 08:45 PM
68.150.148.233

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Quote:

And what is with everyone adding a PPC to the damn things anyway? The Urbanmech's entire point is to be as cheap and useful in a city as possible, and the PPCs minimum range and higher cost goes against that completely. It only gets worse the higher tech level you go, as then replacing the small laser for a pulse and the AC/10 for an LB-10 does nothing but net you range and possibilities.




The point of replacing the AC with a PPC is for the weight savings, allowing other weaponry to be added.

Ultimately, nothing can be done to an Urbanmech to make is useful against much more than a local rebellion, where the heaviest units are guys with hunting rifles in old pickups.

The only reason the PPC thing works out so good is the free heatsinks.
Prince_of_Darkness
08/14/12 11:49 PM
75.170.103.28

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Oh, I know that. I'm really just being all crotchety over the change in it's mission profile.

GRRR THINGS ARE CHANGING AND I DONT LIKE IT GRRR
csadn
10/24/12 01:04 AM
69.30.99.182

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Quote:

Oh, I know that. I'm really just being all crotchety over the change in it's mission profile.




The PPC mod doesn't change the mission profile -- it's still a (semi-)mobile pillbox for cities. The difference is the PPC mod needs to be stationed in the suburbs, where it can shoot into the fields; while the regular version needs to be downtown, where range doesn't matter much, and reloads are nearby.

Quote:

GRRR THINGS ARE CHANGING AND I DONT LIKE IT GRRR




Don't. Get. Me. Started.
CF

Oregon: The "Outworlds Alliance" of the United States of America
OneWardenWolf
12/12/12 03:47 PM
190.252.130.44

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First, I love the UrbanMech. I can't explain it, I just do. That being said, I recognize that every 'Mech has it's time and place and the UrbanMech is no exception.

Second, here are some examples that keep with the idea that the Urbie is a relatively inexpensive city fighter. Though there's no reason why it can't be equally good on the offense, so long as it stays in built up areas. Obviously, when talking about improving any 'Mech, costs will most likely increase as these examples show.

1 - Urban fighter upgrade with Ultra AC/10, two tons ammo and a small pulse laser. Tournament legal, post invasion. Built with endo, ferro, and XL Gyro. Mounts CASE and slightly less than max armor. No free tonnage and no free crits. BV - 646 and 1,911,000 C-Bills. Keeps with the armament layout of the original, but allows for heavy damage if the UrbanMech encounters heavier 'Mechs than itself.

2 - Energy weapon refit with Snub PPC, 2 MG w/ .5 ton ammo. Targeting comp and Active Probe. Compact engine and compact gyro. Endo, Ferro (max armor), 13 single heat sinks. Swapped the weapons profile (Ammo and energy for energy and ammo). BV - 618 and 2,619,500 C-Bills.

Obviously, the best choice would be an Omni-UrbanMech with Endo and Ferro (6 tons for max) and either 16 tons of pod space with 13 free crits or 15.5 tons free + CASE in one side torso for 12 free crits. Out of respect to the obvious design cues, I think the majority of free space should be in the "arms". Obviously the Urbie should never have lower arm or hand actuators.

For my part, I go with the flexibility of the Omni-UrbanMech. Config Alpha - LB-10X w/2 tons ammo and two small pulse lasers and one small laser. BV - 609 and under two million C-Bills. Config Bravo 0 LB-10X w/ 2 tons solid and 1 ton cluster and three small lasers. BV - 620 and still under two million.

Finally, as a note about maneuverability, I'd like to point out that the problem isn't that...it's speed. The maneuverability is fine as the 'Mech is designed to jump every time it moves. Land any facing sound familiar? No, the issue with the Urbie is speed, not maneuverability.
Raplet
12/13/12 11:04 PM
68.150.148.233

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I don't know. Paying almost 2 million c-bills for a UM is kind of like paying someone a hundred dollars to kick you in your balls.

Sure, it only cost you a hundred bucks, but you still got kicked in the balls.
Karagin
12/14/12 03:14 AM
72.178.85.122

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IF the 2 million c-bill UM does it's jump and stops the enemy attack then it was worth every cent spent.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
csadn
12/19/12 07:18 PM
69.30.99.182

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Quote:

Second, here are some examples that keep with the idea that the Urbie is a relatively inexpensive city fighter.




One small problem: If you noticed, I didn't include any advanced-tech options -- There Is A Reason For This. (Several, actually, but mainly I was looking at "what can be done with 3025-tech alone".)

Quote:

Finally, as a note about maneuverability, I'd like to point out that the problem isn't that...it's speed. The maneuverability is fine as the 'Mech is designed to jump every time it moves. Land any facing sound familiar? No, the issue with the Urbie is speed, not maneuverability.




Speed is a component of maneuverability. Yes, a jump-capable 'Mech can be facing any direction after a jump; but a fat lot of good it does if it can't get to the hex it needs to be in to *really* ruin an opponent's day -- and that's why most folks avoid "the walking dustbin". (It also explains my "UM-R150" designs, but that's another can of worms. )

By the same token: If the Charge of the Horde taught us anything, it is that "quality has a quantity all its own"; a decently-built unit will thrash its cost in scrapwagons, and more. (Hint: Four _UrbanMechs_ v. one _Annihilator_.)
CF

Oregon: The "Outworlds Alliance" of the United States of America
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
03/12/13 09:01 PM
68.241.15.130

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If I was going against an UrbanMech in a city I would use some of my 11 ton VTALs

http://www.sarna.net/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/150980/an/0/page/8#150980

For the cost C-Bills of one could have an entire lance of my VTALs. *Of coarse the first thing people here will say is, "OMG! you have a fusion power plant in a conventional vehicle!* I can move all around the city and try to pick off the UrbanMech with lots and lots of Medium Laser hits. Since the base model UrbanMech cant use cluster ammo I should not have that mush problems with return fire since I am considered jumping and that I can move at a very fast speed.

Staying with just ICE power plant vehicles I could field a reinforced company of http://www.sarna.net/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/151446/an/0/page/8#151446 . Granted they cant jump but with 15 of them matching the cost of one UrbanMech eventually I will wear down the UrbanMech because it only has 10 shots with the AC/10, and how many times can a mech do death from above before it fails its piloting skill roll and is destroyed?
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
csadn
04/05/13 10:11 PM
50.39.233.161

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Quote:

If I was going against an UrbanMech in a city I would use some of my 11 ton VTALs




See my .sig? I play Outworlds Alliance -- the Architects Of Air Power. I am *way* ahead of you on the "air-tillery" score; been doing that since VTOLs were first introduced. (In fact, in the campaign I was in, I used the VTOLs to kill the 'Mechs quickly, and with minimal collateral damage; then those 'Mechs were used to fill the 'Mech regiments, to suck in even more 'Mechs.... >:) )
CF

Oregon: The "Outworlds Alliance" of the United States of America
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