Katrar
Major
Reged: 09/15/02
Posts: 1314
Loc: Seattle, WA USA, Terra
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A Neveron Client
#58604 - 04/23/03 01:58 AM (12.229.16.249)
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Does anyone here have any experience coding client software? It seems to me that Neveron could benefit greatly from a client. Why?
#1 Speed of data transmission. I may be wrong here, but wouldn't a client allow Neveron to manipulate data packets through compression or other efficiency devices? Everything in Neveron at present is sent through raw html-type packets (Again, my limited coding ability shines through). Aren't the pages we are seeing very "clunky" by modern data transmission standards? I understand Neveron does not need a 30ms latency rate, but could we improve lag by manipulating the way we send and receive data?
#2 A GUI (Graphical User Interface). Neveron is a collection of web pages, the vast composition of which never change. Every time we click a tab, the same large amount of information is required to be sent regardless that the variable fields might just be a small proportion of that data. As well, Neveron is limited to what can be efficiently sent via HTML.
Now, before anybody goes jumping all over me by suggesting that glitter has no importance or relevance to Neveron, I must say I agree. To a degree. We will NEVER need a 3d engine. But I think the polish a GUI installed on the end user's computer could add to Neveron would add to the experience. It would add to my experience at least. Imagine playing Neveron through a client that had nearly instant access to data pages (of improved artwork and functionality than HTML allows) because the actual data packets were a fraction of their former size.
#3 This is one of my dreams, and one that is probably only possible through a client: a graphical map. Imagine a map that showed a coastline complete with strip of sandy beach. Imagine seeing that instead of a collection of uniform colored squares, you could look at the map and see that your empire was actually located in the middle of a great Neveronian plateau, sitting between an imposing mountain range and a vast blue-green sea. While not knowing the makeup of a zone's contents and exact terrain prior to entering LW, wouldn't it be neat to know that the zone would be mountainous because it was portrayed as such, or that it was probably green, grassy and flat because it was located in the middle of an expansive lowlands rather than simply because the random terrain generator made it so?
#4 Combat - I don't think combat could be improved much, functionally, beyond the system that has been created. But would(n't) a client allow a great decrease in lag and a corresponding increase in stability by reducing the need to send anything but movement updates?
I know, a client is a major major project. I know that it will probably never happen. But I think it would be truly awesome and think the gaming community would mostly as well. =)
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HoC Gaming - Come war with us!
The HoC Archive - Neveron's definitive historical document
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Vapor
Lieutenant
Reged: 11/15/02
Posts: 699
Loc: Guam
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Re: A Neveron Client
#58609 - 04/23/03 02:44 AM (202.128.71.251)
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Your idea has merit, except for one point. The only thing that has me playing Neveron and not Megamek or some other such program is the fact that I don't have to download and install anything to play. I can play at work, at school, at home, anywhere. If I had to download and install a client, it would limit when and where I could play, and if that happened, I would probably switch over to Megamek.
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"For those about to rock, we salute you." - AC DC
"The evil that can come, from the heart of a man, must be answered in kind 'till it disappears, and we're safe." - Kansas
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Krait
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 06/22/02
Posts: 1639
Loc: Krautland
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Re: A Neveron Client
#58613 - 04/23/03 03:11 AM (172.179.157.90)
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Also client software would be prone to user manipulation, and I think Randy is pretty paranoid about things like that (prolly for a good reason too)....
Lata
Krait
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airbagTTS
Sergeant Major
Reged: 06/24/02
Posts: 220
Loc: near Stuttgart/Germany
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Re: A Neveron Client
#58650 - 04/23/03 09:38 AM (80.145.85.9)
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client software has same chance to get 'hacked' as the webpages with vbscript. all security concering details have to be hidden on serverside in the asp scripts. Best thing that could be done for example: give a option to download the images etc and use them from the local disk instead of reloading them every time from the net.
but one thing that has to be done is the compression of the pages. IIS and IE support that feature and it definitly should be activated if it hasent been yet.
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Comment 1: "Life would be much easier if I had the source Code"
Comment 2: "In a world without walls and fences - who needs windows and gates?"
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Cecil
Lieutenant
Reged: 07/09/02
Posts: 467
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Re: A Neveron Client
#58692 - 04/23/03 03:50 PM (128.125.250.32)
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Yes, hacking and cheating will run rampant throughout neveron if it gets significantly client-side based. The idea of using the images from the hard drive though is a good idea to reduce load times.
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davion76
Lieutenant Colonel
Reged: 08/07/02
Posts: 1605
Loc: Ridgecrest CA, USA
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Re: A Neveron Client
#58695 - 04/23/03 03:58 PM (138.163.0.44)
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Hear, Hear!!! It'd be nice if we could do something about the speed of page loads in combat - hopefully saved images would really help.
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Cecil
Lieutenant
Reged: 07/09/02
Posts: 467
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Re: A Neveron Client
#58696 - 04/23/03 04:00 PM (128.125.250.32)
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I'm not totally sure about this, but I think since Nev requires that pages be reloaded EVERY visit to a page, your computer never has a chance to use the cached images since everything gets reloaded every visit. If there was a way around this or something, then I think load times would diminish significantly...but i'm not totally sure about it.
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Hobbo
Newbie
Reged: 01/08/03
Posts: 24
Loc: UK
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Re: A Neveron Client
#58765 - 04/24/03 04:55 AM (130.209.6.43)
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Well, if the combat system was re-coded to use the images on the hard disk not the main server, it'd work. All it'd take is to change the location of the image files from the combat system, as (to the best of my knowledge) the combat system relys on calculating where everything is, then hauling the images off the server.
Although some sort of alternate method would need to be implemented to allow people without access to a computer of their own to still play. Maybe a dialog before combat initiates asking which system you'd like to use?
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MMmm, fried locusts
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airbagTTS
Sergeant Major
Reged: 06/24/02
Posts: 220
Loc: near Stuttgart/Germany
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Re: A Neveron Client
#58782 - 04/24/03 07:42 AM (80.145.102.48)
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that thing can be implemented on the account basis. everybody could set the thing either to server based or to a path on the local harddisk.
then randy has only to change the html img tags to point to the correct filepath either http:// or file:// an easy statement in asp.
so there would be no problem with page reload because if its reloaded it will be from local disk (not from cache but the original place).
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Comment 1: "Life would be much easier if I had the source Code"
Comment 2: "In a world without walls and fences - who needs windows and gates?"
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Cecil
Lieutenant
Reged: 07/09/02
Posts: 467
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Re: A Neveron Client
#58805 - 04/24/03 12:01 PM (128.125.250.32)
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good point
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Katrar
Major
Reged: 09/15/02
Posts: 1314
Loc: Seattle, WA USA, Terra
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Re: A Neveron Client
#58848 - 04/24/03 05:45 PM (12.229.16.249)
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Now the question: How much lag reduction would a local mirror of these files achieve? Rough estimates... Could it potentially eliminate map-load timeouts?
It seems to me it would be cheat-free, since it would be simple images stored locally.
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HoC Gaming - Come war with us!
The HoC Archive - Neveron's definitive historical document
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Mystified
Sergeant
Reged: 04/12/03
Posts: 119
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Re: A Neveron Client
#58869 - 04/24/03 10:47 PM (24.126.17.201)
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I sent an email about this a while ago, they basically said "cool, you offering to write the code?" I don't really know much about it, but I think that all it would take is an optional download.
Like the map graphics, you could either have it the way they do now, or, if you have a certain cookie installed, it would find a more detailed big nevmap on your hard drive that would have the basic terrain, then just look to the server for new mines, larger cities, etc to update your cache. Same thing could be done with the Arena/ LW graphics, and all the info pages. You could do cool graphics for all the units and weapons, repair centers, whatever.
All the graphics could be stored, and if the ONLY thing you store on the user's computer is optional graphics, there really aren't any security issues or computer use issues at all.
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airbagTTS
Sergeant Major
Reged: 06/24/02
Posts: 220
Loc: near Stuttgart/Germany
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Re: A Neveron Client
#58904 - 04/25/03 09:06 AM (80.145.98.14)
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the code for the images isnt that much and i could write it if needed (tho i didnt code asp for more than a year, only php since).
with the thing for worldmap, big hmm, if all the data would be globaly availabe it would be to easy to find all mines of a certain type and attack the ones from the weakest empires. currently you see mines from other empires only on lvl1 map and randy for sure made that for a reason 
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Comment 1: "Life would be much easier if I had the source Code"
Comment 2: "In a world without walls and fences - who needs windows and gates?"
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Mirsha
Sergeant
Reged: 12/03/02
Posts: 243
Loc: Scotland
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Re: A Neveron Client
#60278 - 05/13/03 05:59 AM (217.39.119.195)
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Actually if a client was coded there is no reason why you would need to have it, it would be an optional extra allowing people who could to make their gaming experience easier. I know people who mud and use Zmud/Gmud from home but from work use raw telnet, it's the same idea
For example combat is a complete shambles how it's done currently, when you try to move the page has to confirm with the server it can happen before it updates your location which means every move is delayed by lag. Thus moving multiple hexes generates a compund interest on lag making it harder to control multiple units. I've seen this areanas where I've managed to control 4 units when my lag has been fine but add a touch and I struggle to move one it's full distance.
There is also absolutely no reason why cheating would run rampant. The way the client/server model would work is when a user does something it checks localy if it's allowed and if it is it performs the actions, then it sends to the server to confuirm it. For example moving in combat would wait until a player had made their full move before checking on the server, this would lead to only one client -> server packet rather than say 12 for moving a jeep. You'd also be able to move a second unit whilst waiting for confirmation of the firsts ones movement. This is the exact same way games like Quake III and so on work, the local client shows the result of a users actions instantly but these can be later nullified by the server, for example if you've ever played a FPS online where the game has jerked that has been the server sending back a packet saying the client is at such a location and that the clients "prediction" is wrong.
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Katrar
Major
Reged: 09/15/02
Posts: 1314
Loc: Seattle, WA USA, Terra
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Re: A Neveron Client
#60301 - 05/13/03 09:14 AM (12.229.16.249)
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Makes sense. And I still think a client, if designed around the need for security, could make Neveron a whole new gaming experience.
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HoC Gaming - Come war with us!
The HoC Archive - Neveron's definitive historical document
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slaine202
Sergeant Major
Reged: 01/24/03
Posts: 271
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Re: A Neveron Client
#60348 - 05/14/03 12:36 AM (134.146.0.6)
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The best thing about using a local mirror of the images is that you could substitute your own images for the ones supplied by Randy, make that Urbie really look like a walking beer can 
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