Talk:Refit Kit

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Inaccurate description

Oh boy, does this need a rewrite. Looks like this article's false representation of the definition of "Field Refit Kits" in the BattleTech universe led to intense discussions on the CGL and HBS BattleTech forums.

"Field refit kit" is a very generic term that describes, well, field refit kits. It does not exclusively refer to those upgrade kits that were distributed in the wake of the Clan invasion - these were just one specific kind of field refit kits. I'll see if I can take some time out of my other projects to fix this issue here today... Frabby (talk) 00:41, 15 September 2016 (PDT)

I think some of the confusion may stem from the fact that the time in and around the Clan Invasion and its immediate aftermath was probably the first time period in which field refit kits were mass-produced and widely distributed in huge quantities, as everyone tried to get access to upgraded technology. I doubt there was ever another period where so many kits were manufactured, sold and fitted, across such a wide range of equipment, in so short a time.BrokenMnemonic (talk) 04:44, 15 September 2016 (PDT)

Retrofit Kits

For a long time there has been no mention of "retrofit kits" on BTW, but I am unsure if this should be simply another name or term for a "refit kit". There are a few mentions of retrofit kits in older FASA publications, and I was only able to find one in Technical Readout: 3055. Here is the 5th paragraph from page 92:

"Eight of these 'Mechs are Clan versions of Inner Sphere designs. These so-called Inner Sphere refits are new designs that utilize Clan technology and should not be confused with the retrofit kits used by some of the Clans to upgrade captured Inner Sphere 'Mechs in the field."

The passage refers to the difference between misnamed "Inner Sphere refits", for instance the 80-ton Warhammer IIC, and the retrofitted 70-ton Warhammer C.
My initial interpretation is there is little difference between a "refit kit" and a "retrofit kit". If there is a difference between a refit and a retrofit kit, it may be in the rules level of the package. As of the publication of TRO: 3055 (in 1992), the Warhammer IIC is a tournament-legal, second-line Clan BattleMech, while the Warhammer C from The Battle for Twycross is an experimental, under-mass, mixed-technology Inner Sphere BattleMech, and replacing some of its intro level Inner Sphere weapons with smaller, less massive Clan weapons, without added components.
This leads me to three possibilities for writing this.
1. New article (I do not favor this).
2. Subsection of "refit kit", and mention the mixed technology rules.
3. Add "retrofit kit" to the list of alternate names, and add mention of mixed-technology to the article (I favor this).
Are there any other options? How does the community feel about this?--S.gage (talk) 14:32, 27 December 2022 (EST)

I think this needs to all be covered in one singe article. Spreading it out over several articles will only add to the confusion about what is what. So it would have to be option 2 or 3 in my opinion. Frabby (talk) 18:19, 27 December 2022 (EST)

The two words have a lot of overlap, though refit can also mean something more like refurbishment. I thought of the difference as a retrofit requiring a trip to a factory, as with old Ostmann machines getting XL engines, and a refit being something you could do in the field. Then CGL decided you could completely replace every single structural component in a garage somewhere and still call it a refit and I gave up trying to force it to make sense. Madness Divine (talk) 22:50, 27 December 2022 (EST)

@Madness, they do have a lot of overlap, and what you just wrote also sounds right, too. That is why I was thinking retrofits may all involve adding higher level technology to lower tech units that need to be refurbished. If there was a concrete example, maybe explaining retrofit in a subsection makes sense. I just could not find a reference, other than TRO: 3055. Maybe in the write ups for the 'Mechs themselves in TRO: 3050? But what you also said about CGL making to two terms roughly equivalent also sounds right.

EDIT: I found 2 uses "retrofit" so far in TRO: 3050. The first is p. 45, 3rd paragraph:

"Though still existing in relatively small numbers, improved 'Mech designs are emerging from factories throughout the Successor States, including even Rasalhague's new factory on Salatice. Certain weapons factories have achieved such high levels of production that the assembly plants, still in process of retooling, cannot use the entire output. Such surplus advanced lasers and other weapons are being issued to units field modification kits and retrofitted onto older 'Mech designs. ..."

And from the Katana entry, p. 194, 3rd paragraph:

"The Katana differs from the Crockett in its lack of double heat sinks and its use of common Magna Mk III Large Lasers instead of the extended-range Blankenburg 25s. ROM agents have been unable to learn the extent to which the Katana has been retrofitted with more advanced systems."

It seems the common thread could be two-fold. Older, obsolete 'Mechs are being made combat-ready again with better tech. The second, hinted at by the first quote, could be retrofits are not planned upgrades, but are possible because some parts of the Inner Sphere logistical chain are simply more expeditious, and therefore retrofits are done with surplus weapon systems. What do you think?--S.gage (talk) 00:51, 28 December 2022 (EST)

My memory's far from perfect but retrofit and refit kit both seem relatively recent (compared to twenty-odd years ago) usage. Swapping out weapons was a field modification, doing something that required significant time away from the front lines was a refit; there's definitely been some drift in terminology since then. Short of poring over the pre-OCR PDFs, I can't come up with something more definite. Madness Divine (talk) 12:46, 28 December 2022 (EST)

The sources I have been citing come from the late 80s and early 90s, so these terms like "field modification kit", "retrofit kit", etc. have been around for a while, even if they were not precisely defined as CGL has done. But therein lies the problem I have - I don't feel comfortable assigning any extra meaning. I am leaning toward the second option, simply adding the terms, and adding a little bit about using upgrade kits to improve the technological sophistication of the unit, which really is an important detail that is not included.--S.gage (talk) 23:43, 28 December 2022 (EST)

Customization (SO pp. 188-190)

The other problem mentioned with the "Retrofit Kit" problem was more fundamental. There are several types of customization, and manufacturing refit kits is just one method to expedite standardized upgrades. In contrast non-standard parts are frequently used to repair or upgrade 'Mechs. FrankenMechs made from the usable pieces of multiple 'Mechs are another.
Should there be another article specifically about customization? If so, some of the rules details from this article could be transferred to the new article, and it could provide links, as well as a short discussion on technology level and Inner Sphere-Clan incompatibility, and provide links. Additionally, customization in its more general form has also been brought up many times in the literature, and could also be discussed in historical context. What do you think?--S.gage (talk) 14:47, 29 December 2022 (EST)