User talk:Doneve/Archive5 January 2013-January 2014


Happy New Year[edit]

Hy Doneve,

I'd like to wish you and your family a Happy New Year - I hope that 2013 is a great year for everyone.

If nothing else, TPTB have started it off with Objectives: Periphery, which seems like a good start to me Wink.gif BrokenMnemonic (talk) 12:46, 1 January 2013 (PST)

Hy BM, sorry for the late response, i wish you and your family also a Happy New Year.--Doneve (talk) 13:57, 2 January 2013 (PST)

XTRO Primitives Vol 3[edit]

Doneve, Just FYI: I undid your formatting changes to the TOC of XTRO Primitives Vol. 3. Battlemechs, Aerospace Fighters, DropShips, Jumpships, Warships are all italicized, but battle armor and combat vehicles aren't. This is how CGL does it and follows the italics policy. --Mbear(talk) 04:16, 3 January 2013 (PST)

Planet InfoBox[edit]

Copied from my talk page Mbear, as the resident expert on infobox construction, is there any way to amend the Template:InfoBoxPlanetStandard template so that if the image is already less than 225 pixels in width, it isn't increased automatically to a width of 225 pixels? Some of the info boxes (like Denbar) are suffering from image bloat because the long, think planetary flags are being scaled up dramatically... BrokenMnemonic (talk) 12:27, 9 January 2013 (PST)

I don't know off the top of my head. Let me look into it.--Mbear(talk) 04:17, 10 January 2013 (PST)
Updated the InfoboxPlanetStandard to include a new paramater: imagewidth. If you have an image less than 225px, you can enter the width in pixels on this line to show image w/o scaling. Leaving line blank will assume width of 225px.--Mbear(talk) 04:32, 10 January 2013 (PST)
Excellent, thanks.--Doneve (talk) 08:22, 10 January 2013 (PST)

Skye Rangers Commando[edit]

Doneve - So in the back of FM:Lyran Alliance, there's a color pic of a Commando in Skye Ranger colors. Could you upload this one for me? ClanWolverine101 (talk) 10:50, 16 January 2013 (PST)

Done :).--Doneve (talk) 11:50, 16 January 2013 (PST)
Thanks! ClanWolverine101 (talk) 22:14, 16 January 2013 (PST)

Task Force Serpent[edit]

Hy Doneve,

Do you know where a list of the WarShips assigned to Task Force Serpent could be found? I notice from the Essex page that several ComStar vessels apparently went, but I've checked all the sourcebooks I can think of and haven't turned anything up. BrokenMnemonic (talk) 12:29, 18 January 2013 (PST)

Ok! i look what i can do for you.--Doneve (talk) 22:12, 19 January 2013 (PST)
Okidoky, the source is Twilight of the Clans sourcebook, p. 8, and on other pages, i hope this helps.--Doneve (talk) 22:21, 19 January 2013 (PST)
Hy, that's great, thank you Smiley.gif

Rewritten: 4th Skye Rangers[edit]

For your approval, I give you the 4th Skye Rangers. ClanWolverine101 (talk) 21:32, 21 January 2013 (PST)

That's one heck of a re-write. Very sharp looking article. --Rebs (talk) 10:58, 30 January 2013 (PST)


Hello Doneve!

Nic deleted the unused Viper images. :( But that's OK. I dropped him a note and said hello and apologized about cluttering up his database. I explained about the holidays and stuff too. He said it was cool, and to upload the images any time. So... If you are cool with it as well, could you please re-upload Natalie Breen for me? :) (page 91 ER: 3052) I just finished her bio, its a good one. :) And it is also for your approval, or anyone else too. --Rebs (talk) 10:35, 30 January 2013 (PST)

Okidoki, work in progress :).--Doneve (talk) 10:38, 30 January 2013 (PST)
Thank you much, as always. More to come. --Rebs (talk) 12:11, 30 January 2013 (PST)
Hello Doneve :) Could you re-upload Perigard Zalman from pages 92 of ER: 3052, and page 98 of ER:3062? And while in the second book, possibly Steel Viper Alpha Galaxy, Beta Galaxy and Gamma Galaxy insignia from page 63 and 64 of ER:3062. I'll put them with their respective galaxies right away so they will definitely be used... and I'll use the Alpha galaxy pic in an article that is getting close. I know you are busy, so whenever is cool, I'll keep an eye open.--Rebs (talk) 22:17, 13 February 2013 (PST)
Hy Rebs, i re-upload the pics when iam at home.--Doneve (talk) 07:23, 14 February 2013 (PST)
No problem! The galaxy ones will be good for lots of characters, so I was also wondering if maybe there were color ones available. I'll have to go searching... --Rebs (talk) 22:41, 14 February 2013 (PST)
OK, Zalman is approaching the finished state. And the images for the galaxies were already here. My bad. This will be a good one! Rebs (talk) 23:55, 15 February 2013 (PST)

Individual WarShips[edit]

Hi Doneve. Had question for you. Why are you making so many sub-directories for individual ships? There aren't that many ships that have extensive information on them them to warrent their own individual articles. I originally made individual ship category, because there only handful ships that had extensive detail to warrent its down profile. Now there ones for individual ships of each Class, whats going on?-- Wrangler (talk) 18:20, 4 February 2013 (PST)

Please take a look on your talk page.--Doneve (talk)
Doneve, i was looking how you were splitting up the Named vessels into their own files. Category for Point Barrow (Vessel) is listed in the Vigiliant Class category, yet the ship's article says its Robinson Class Transport. Could you double check your linking? -- Wrangler (talk) 12:15, 10 February 2013 (PST)
Fixed, it was an copy and past error, thanks.--Doneve (talk) 12:22, 10 February 2013 (PST)

Hy Doneve, Thanks for helping with the individual ships Smiley.gif There are thousands of them tucked away in various books. I'm sorry I'm not helping more at the moment - I'm laid up with a nasty chest infection, and while I'm getting better pretty quickly, I've not had a lot of time to get on with editing because the convention work has been pretty busy this week. I'm hoping that'll change this weekend though!
One thing I thought I should mention is the convention on naming ships, which should in theory be the same here as it is on wikipedia - while a ship's name is always italicized, the prefix denoting the service shouldn't be. It's not something that TPTB are 100% consistent with in their books, but it's something I've been trying to follow here. It makes life a bit frustrating, because italics and wikilinks don't really work, but it's the technically correct way of naming them. So, ships like the Inquisitor should be the SLS Inquisitor, rather than the SLS Inquisitor. Does that make sense?
I've been nosing through Historical: Operation Klondike (I have been catching up on my reading a bit) and it's a little frustrating that so many WarShips are involved in battles, but so few get named. It also makes me wonder when the Clans started renaming WarShips, although I'm not sure there's ever going to be a clear answer on that. It's also got me wondering about the prefixes and where they come from - we use a lot here on Sarna, and I've seen them used over on CGL a lot, particularly all the different ones for the Clans, but I've not found many sources in canon where they actually specify the clan prefixes. The Blake Documents confirmed CIH for Clan Ice Hellion and CJF for Clan Jade Falcon, but Frabby asked me about what prefix the Steel Vipers use, given that ComStar seems to have used CSV (ComStar Vessel?), and I couldn't find anything in canon. Any ideas? BrokenMnemonic (talk) 05:40, 13 February 2013 (PST)

Hy BM, at first good luck for your healing process. I am glad to help a little by the massiv amount of various warships. As second, we italic the full name of a warship like SLS Inquisitor, for the prefixes iam with you, there is no clear canon source, named for the most of the vessels, like some of the other clans, [CIH], and [CJF] is stated in a cannon source, i think a talk to the CBT Forum is the best way to clear this.--Doneve (talk) 10:29, 13 February 2013 (PST)

Individual Vessel infobox[edit]

Hi Doneve, in the articles you're creating you apparently copy & paste a template using "infoBoxIndividualSpacegoingVessel". That infobox doesn't exist under that name though, it's a redirect to "Template:InfoBoxIndividualVessel". I admit that this isn't important, but I find it irritating to have articles with a redirected infobox. I'm not asking you to go over all the past articles again, but may I suggest that you use the correct template name for future articles to avoid making use of that redirect.
Thank you. :) Frabby (talk) 09:33, 19 February 2013 (PST)

Hy Frabby, i set up the redirect to the infobox, can you delete one of the infoboxes, then we work only from one infobox, thanks.--Doneve (talk) 10:16, 19 February 2013 (PST)


Hey Doneve - how can I contact you outside of the wiki? Thanks. ClanWolverine101 (talk) 12:55, 14 February 2013 (PST)

Sent you a PM on that forum. Thanks. ClanWolverine101 (talk) 20:29, 17 February 2013 (PST)

Image Discussion[edit]

Hey Doneve! I uploaded Perigard Zalman... I just wanted to know, did I do it right? Was there anything I missed? If everything is a go, I'll put it into use. --Rebs (talk) 11:20, 16 February 2013 (PST)

Thanks for the brush ups on the image files. Nice to know I can take care of that end in the future. Smiley.gif --Rebs (talk) 20:12, 16 February 2013 (PST)
Dude, and thank you big-time for the Zalman quote. That one is perfect. :) --Rebs (talk) 16:59, 17 February 2013 (PST)
I think i found more quotes provided on the CCG Cards for your clan bio articles, i have a eye on this ;).--Doneve (talk) 17:04, 17 February 2013 (PST)

Product infobox[edit]

I've asked Nic to make a change to a CSS file. (I don't have access to it, otherwise I'd just do it.)--Mbear(talk) 09:40, 20 February 2013 (PST)

Ok, thanks.--Doneve (talk) 09:57, 20 February 2013 (PST)

WarShip Pages[edit]

Hy Doneve,

I'd like to give you this assistance appreciated award as thanks for the way you're tidying up after me as I plow through the new ship articles here on Sarna. I'm not getting much time to edit at home because of the Vidukon work I'm doing, and at work I don't get as much editing time as I'd like, so it can take me a fair while to write the articles, set up the redirects and then edit the WarShip/JumpShip/DropShip variant pages to include all the links. You've been a big help in taking some of that off my hands so I can concentrate on the individual ship articles themselves, and I appreciate that greatly.
So, please accept this award, with my thanks: Assistance Appreciated Award, 6th ribbon BrokenMnemonic (talk) 23:52, 25 February 2013 (PST)

Thanks Smiley.gif.--Doneve (talk) 06:19, 26 February 2013 (PST)

Combat Vehicle Infobox[edit]

Hy Mbear, please can you add a heat sinks row to the combat vehicle infobox, thanks.--Doneve (talk) 11:02, 26 February 2013 (PST)

Done!--Mbear(talk) 12:46, 26 February 2013 (PST)
Great thanks.--Doneve (talk) 12:48, 26 February 2013 (PST)

Ulric Quote[edit]

Doneve - I have no problem with you adding it. My concern is that 1) Ulric didn't say it. and 2) It wasn't originally said in regards to him. WoB scripture is way older than the Clan Invasion. The card simply applied it to him for flavor text. ClanWolverine101 (talk) 06:48, 5 March 2013 (PST)

Objectives: Clans[edit]

Hello Doneve, i missed that Mortiorium date. However, its four days from now. Its okay leave what i've done alone since there only few days left? -- Wrangler (talk) 19:11, 10 March 2013 (PDT)

I know know, i hate the moratorium but we must live with this, but i became also a "Wrangler" ;), in the last two years, and you are a good teacher.--Doneve (talk) 19:16, 10 March 2013 (PDT)
I've made Wrangler's changes disappear by copying your changes in place. When the moratorium expires, I'll just hit the "roll back" option in the history of the page and Wrangler's additions will arrive again.--Mbear(talk) 06:21, 11 March 2013 (PDT)

Beowulf IIC[edit]

Hi Doneve, no offense intended when I removed the Beowulf IIC link from the list in the IIC article. I'm just too tired to think straight, it should have been made a link to "Beowulf IIC". It was piped to Beowulf#variants though, which is inherently wrong - IIC designs aren't variants, they are 'Mech designs in their own right and need their own article. Btw, I don't own any of the most recent TROs so I don't know where the Beowulf IIC is from. Frabby (talk) 14:19, 11 March 2013 (PDT)

The Beowulf IIC is from Technical Readout: Prototypes, Wrangler is on work to add the missing designs, then in next time the red link became blue ;).--14:41, 11 March 2013 (PDT)
I'll be getting at the Beowulf IIC tomorrow when i have chance. -- Wrangler (talk) 17:13, 11 March 2013 (PDT)
Great, thanks a lot to add some missing 'Mech, vehicle, etc. articles, we have a lack when i look on some TRO content, good work Wrangler.--Doneve (talk) 17:20, 11 March 2013 (PDT)

Puma Tank & Components of Odin[edit]

Hi Doneve, i was editing Odin Manufacturing for the above mentioned Beowulf IIC. I ran into problem with the components. You had a B-Pod launcher called the "Odin" for variant of the Puma Tank. Now, this was strictly a variant which never had any fluff (i know of) which would have included actual brandnames for its components. The Link for the B-Pod launcher you setup ended up going to the Clan Tank named Odin. I did a fix calling it Odin (B-Pod). I don't mean hurt your feelings, but adding components that aren't named isn't good. -- Wrangler (talk) 19:35, 12 March 2013 (PDT)

I know of the problem, some brands are not correct linked and so on, iam in work to change some thinks to clear this, thanks for your support.--Doneve (talk) 20:21, 12 March 2013 (PDT)


Hy Doneve,

I notice I gazumped you with the picture of the Enterprise, but I don't think you should delete the version you uploaded, as I think the article can use both. The picture I uploaded is from the record sheet, and shows just the Enterprise - the picture you uploaded shows the Enterprise on trials with other ships nearby. I think you should add your picture to the Enterprise article as a seperate gallery picture at the bottom, personally. BrokenMnemonic (talk) 01:57, 15 March 2013 (PDT)

Design Quirks[edit]

Hy Mbear, is it ok when i add a design quirks section to the variants you added from XTRO: Boondoggles?--Doneve (talk) 11:10, 14 March 2013 (PDT)

Sure. I don't know that we need a section though. maybe just a sentence.--Mbear(talk) 05:48, 15 March 2013 (PDT)

ProtoMech Infobox[edit]

Hy, can you add a comsys and T&T row to the infobox, thanks.--Doneve (talk) 09:51, 7 March 2013 (PST)

done.--Mbear(talk) 05:54, 15 March 2013 (PDT)
Thanks!--Doneve (talk) 07:41, 15 March 2013 (PDT)

Ares Conventions[edit]

So, is there any actual reason other than gut feeling why you tossed out my summaries of the appendices together with the articles and called me a plagiarist? Dirk Bastion (talk) 12:55, 17 March 2013 (PDT)

By best will, the content i removed was word for word from Era Digest: Age of War, p. 14-15 and was plagiarized, i don't know if you added the content or another editor, but its a copyright violation, sorry.--Doneve (talk) 17:48, 17 March 2013 (PDT)
Then you didn't actually look beyond one or two paragraphs: the appendices and addendums were pretty obviously summaries and not copies. I will restore them later today. The articles (which I didn't touch at all previously) I'll re-insert as small summaries as well. Next time please just don't lob off parts of an article on a serious accusation of plagiarism without tossing the author a note or at least put one on the article discussion page. Dirk Bastion (talk) 05:14, 18 March 2013 (PDT)


Thanks for taking action so quickly and clearing this mess up! Vandal Cop Award, 4th ribbon Frabby (talk) 00:13, 28 March 2013 (PDT)

Thanks for the award! It was child vandalism, i keep my eyes open.--Doneve (talk) 07:58, 28 March 2013 (PDT)

Record Sheets 3075[edit]

Tnx for you message. I discover to late that the moratorium for the RS 3075 is not over. I changed the article to their prevoius versions. Neuling (talk) 13:50, 30 March 2013 (PDT)

No problem dude, i hope we have you back with more edits, i know we had a harsh discussion etc. in the past, but no doubt, also some edits from you also welcome.--Doneve (talk) 13:54, 30 March 2013 (PDT)
I find a solution to create my projects on other places and hopefully I can fix minor issues on sarna in the near future. With best regards Neuling (talk) 13:56, 30 March 2013 (PDT)
I know the places and follow the projects, and you do a really great work. With best regards.--Doneve (talk) 14:00, 30 March 2013 (PDT)


Hello Doneve, I used a new way to create the Umbra article. Please tell me if my text is good enough, because I use a spell checker to correct my typo. With best regards. Neuling (talk) 12:03, 31 March 2013 (PDT)

The article looks good, i added some links, and fix a typo, good work.--Doneve (talk) 12:06, 31 March 2013 (PDT)

Deep Periphery Map[edit]

Hello Doneve, I try to create also a map of the Deep Periphery. My new approach is to upload my work and the original editor can decide if he keep is former upload or accept the different version from me. That is the reason that I upload images and create galleries even in the case that the picture is available with some differences. Neuling (talk) 14:59, 31 March 2013 (PDT)

The map creation was from Bad Syntax, i forgot to add a note one the file, fell free to uploade new maps, i and BrokenMnemonic appriciate this to bring the Planet Overhaul project forwart, and great to have you back.--Doneve (talk) 15:16, 31 March 2013 (PDT)

Design Quirks[edit]

Hy Mbear, is it ok when i add a design quirks section to the variants you added from XTRO: Boondoggles?--Doneve (talk) 11:10, 14 March 2013 (PDT)

Sure. I don't know that we need a section though. maybe just a sentence.--Mbear(talk) 05:48, 15 March 2013 (PDT)
I want to create a Design Quirks page, and i need your support, i know you favor a sentence, but i want to list all quirks in a article, can you help me a little bit, to do this, there is a interesting discussion from FedCom Girl to Herb on the BT forum, and i want to bring this idea to sarna.--Doneve (talk) 18:14, 31 March 2013 (PDT)
Well, one place to start might be the Force Specific Rules page, since that's basically what we're talking about. (Force Specific Rules strike me as Design Quirks for units.) There's a general introduction about the Force Specific Rules, and then a section that lists the effects of the various FSRs. Sounds a lot like the Design Quirks page you're looking to create.--Mbear(talk) 07:01, 1 April 2013 (PDT)

Battle Armor weapons and ammo[edit]

Hello Doneve, I had some difficulties to understand that by the Battle Armor weapons the ammunition is not listed by the various designs. Have you a solution for that problem? With best regards Neuling (talk) 01:35, 2 April 2013 (PDT)

At this time i have no solution, the best is you talk to Mbear. Oh and at this point i stard a project to bring up a Design Quirks page, i know its a lot of work on this subject, are you interested to involve in? I figure in the next days some thinks out, from the style of the page and must talk to Herb and FedComGirl, but the best way is you look on Mber's talk page about this discussion.--01:39, 2 April 2013 (PDT)

Design Quirks, part 2[edit]

Doneve, do you want me to put Design Quirks into the Infoboxes? Then more game related material wouldn't be in the main article, but with the other game-related material (weapons load, BV, etc.)--Mbear(talk) 04:22, 3 April 2013 (PDT)

Of course we should probably put this up for community review.--Mbear(talk) 04:23, 3 April 2013 (PDT)
This is a good idea, do you put it at first to the SomeGuy/sandbox, i want to see what other's say to this idea, how it works!--Doneve (talk) 10:06, 3 April 2013 (PDT)

Hy Doneve, I was looking at some of your quirk listings, and I think you may have a problem with the obsolete quirk. At the moment, you're creating each obsolete entry as a new quirk - Obsolete (3028), Obsolete (3050), etc. So, you're creating lots of quirks that are going to be almost identical. I think you'd be better to just list the Quick as "Obsolete", but add the year as a pipe mask - Obsolete|Obsolete (3028), Obsolete|Obsolete (3050), etc. The Obsolete Quirk always has the same meaning - the equipment is obsolete after a certain date - but dates will change all over the place. What's important is that it has the quirk in the first place - from a mechanics point of view, the quirk doesn't care when the year is, that's for players to worry about. BrokenMnemonic (talk) 13:03, 4 April 2013 (PDT)

Pfff, you are asolutly right, i set up a tag pipe to [Obsolet], thanks for talking to me with this problem.--Doneve (talk) 13:09, 4 April 2013 (PDT)
Question: Couldn't we just list the quirks under that particular variant? Just a thought. ClanWolverine101 (talk) 16:04, 4 April 2013 (PDT)
At the moment i list the quirks in this variant. I wait of Mbear, when he updated the Sandbox/Infobox, think we moved the Design Quirks to the infobox, but i wait for like or not like to do this.--Doneve (talk) 16:16, 4 April 2013 (PDT)
Sorry, had a busy weekend. Have a look at User:Some Guy/Sandbox3 to see the Design Quirks row added to the sample page. ClanWolverine101, AFAIK, Design Quirks apply to every variant of a particular unit. The Sokar will always have Gas Hog for example. If I'm mistaken, let me know.--Mbear(talk) 06:11, 8 April 2013 (PDT)
To CW, when i take a look in TRO:Proto, p. 73, the Sokar has this design quirks Gas Hog, Poor Workmanship, Improved Targeting/Short Range, Trailer Hitch. As second what we do when we have more variants with quirks, look on the Trebuchet as example.--Doneve (talk) 08:58, 8 April 2013 (PDT)

Era Report: 3145[edit]

Hello, i was working on the article for hours while you were doing your filler one. I hope it does not mess you up. -- Wrangler (talk) 12:22, 7 April 2013 (PDT)

No problem, dude.--Doneve (talk) 12:46, 7 April 2013 (PDT)

Design Quirks Sample Page[edit]

Doneve, I like what you've done on Design Quirks. The only comment I have is I think you should move the point cost out of the References section and add it to the Game Rules section. That way you don't have to look in two different places for the info, it's all in one paragraph. Maybe something like one of these:

  • Atmospheric Flyer
When operating inside the atmospheric envelope of a planet, AeroSpace units with the Atmsopheric Flyer Quirk receive a bonus to control rolls to reflect the exceptionally stable and highly maneuverable nature of the unit.
Applicable to: AeroSpace Fighters, DropShips and Small Craft. Point Cost: 3
  • Atmospheric Flyer
When operating inside the atmospheric envelope of a planet, AeroSpace units with the Atmsopheric Flyer Quirk receive a bonus to control rolls to reflect the exceptionally stable and highly maneuverable nature of the unit.
Applicable to: AeroSpace Fighters, DropShips and Small Craft.
Point Cost: 3

(I've removed references and formatting here to show what I mean.)--Mbear(talk) 06:16, 8 April 2013 (PDT)

Hi Mbear, I'm the guilty party when it comes to the points being in the references for the Quirks. My thinking was that as I'm trying to avoid giving away enough mechanical rules detail to get us into trouble on the IPR front, I maybe didn't need to list the points cost overtly. I'm not actually giving things like the numbers for the bonuses and penalty modifiers to initiative, PSRs, to-hit rolls and the like, so that while readers can get an idea of what the Quirks do, the article doesn't replace actually buying Strategic Ops to learn the specifics. And, if they aren't getting the specifics for the other rules mechanics, it didn't really seem necessary to add the cost for the Quirks as well. I'm happy to change it, but I thought I'd explain my reasoning... I'm a little twitchy because I don't do much on the rules side of the wiki, being more a fluff person, but I used to be a mod on a wiki for Tau players in Warhammer 40K, and Games Workshop were strict to the point of fanatacism about IPR, copyright and trademarks, so I'm used to giving less detail rather than more. BrokenMnemonic (talk) 08:48, 8 April 2013 (PDT)
Yep, BM found the right words, he is the only contributor for the fluff writing, i only created the main body page and make some little works, you know step by step iam working from but with great response, yes he becomes his award, i must stick a nail in the wound sorry BM Wink.gif, thanks a lot to [BM] and [Mbear] for the great supporters to add missing thinks, etc. to sarna.--Doneve (talk) 18:59, 8 April 2013 (PDT)
Just saw your notes about this. OK. It makes sense to me. But I don't think CGL will complain about it.--Mbear(talk) 06:04, 13 May 2013 (PDT)

Suzaku & KCMC[edit]

Hello Doneve. Wanted give you heads up on this article. Your already working on it. 1) PAGENAME things in the Suzaku, automaticly includes article's name so you don't have manually enter the name (unless they don't work anymore.) Replacing them in your copyediting is a waste. 2) KCMC: I know your king of doing Components. However, KCMC was relocated per entry from TRO:P i just wrote up. I've not looked in the FM:3085 see if its included in there as additional source. Objectives: Draconis Combine does not include because it was occupied by WoB. I'm not sure what should be included on newly relocated KCMC page since it doesn't note anything else being built there. The old Objective Raids is bit old. I won't get rid of the old stuff incase someone referring to it as pre-Jihad source. -- Wrangler (talk) 11:14, 11 April 2013 (PDT)

Thanks for the info, i look what i can found in other sources about the Suzaku components and where there built.--Doneve (talk) 11:21, 11 April 2013 (PDT)

Angus Mctavish[edit]

Hy Doneve,

Does this article on Angus Mctavish sound like a legitimate character to you? I've got a nasty feeling it's someone adding their personal fanon character to Sarna, particularly as I'd expect the capitalisation of a legitimate Scottish surname to be McTavish, not Mctavish. BrokenMnemonic (talk) 13:16, 14 April 2013 (PDT)

I have the same feeling as you, i datamined my sources when i see your talk on last day, but i found nothing at this time, i think its fanon!--Doneve (talk) 13:19, 14 April 2013 (PDT)
I notice we get more fanon these days than we used to. I wonder what's causing that?
Btw, if you find any more articles that need updating from the Age of War record sheets pack from TRO 3075, can you let me know? I've rather enjoyed adding the new variants for the spacecraft you flagged up yesterday or the day before. BrokenMnemonic (talk) 12:51, 15 April 2013 (PDT)
Which other fanon articles mean you? I added the deletion template to the Angus Mctavish article. Oh and thanks a lot for adding the missing variants from RS:3075UAoW, when i found more i talk to you. Now i work my way from the Cutting Edge RS.--Doneve (talk) 12:59, 15 April 2013 (PDT)

Adler Malthus Pic[edit]

Page 12 of The Battle for Twycross - can you upload this for me? :) ClanWolverine101 (talk) 22:31, 15 April 2013 (PDT)

Work in progress. ;).--Doneve (talk) 22:34, 15 April 2013 (PDT)


Hi Doneve, I think it would not be a good idea to add the real-world vehicles from XTRO:1945 to BTW! See detailed response on my talk page. Frabby (talk) 03:52, 18 April 2013 (PDT)

CSR Snow Raven[edit]

Hy Doneve, I just added an image for the CSR Snow Raven (based on the assumption that it's in the Snow Raven section of Field Report: Clans, and their WarShip fleet only includes the one McKenna) - but I don't recognise the artists signature. As you're the guru of images here, if you recognise which artist it is, could you possibly add his details to the file? Thanks! BrokenMnemonic (talk) 13:17, 23 April 2013 (PDT)

Hy BM, the artist is Chris Lewis, summary template is updated.--Doneve (talk) 13:31, 23 April 2013 (PDT)
Thank you, much appreciated Smiley.gif BrokenMnemonic (talk) 13:47, 23 April 2013 (PDT)

Regarding Design Quirks[edit]

Doneve - Respectfully - I don't believe its necessary for every 'Mech to have a "Quirk" section that applies to only one particular variant. Its unneeded and burdensome on the article. This is not to say the information isn't valuable - it is. But it would be much better in my opinion to list the quirks in the already-existing variant section. This is just my opinion. Thanks. ClanWolverine101 (talk) 09:45, 30 April 2013 (PDT)

Operation BULLDOG losses[edit]

Hy Doneve,
I'm trying to work out which WarShips were lost during Operation Bulldog, particularly the Draconis Combine WarShips, and I'm not having much luck with the sourcebooks. The closest I've found is in the closing section of The Dragon Roars, where it's stated that two Kyushu, one Kirishima and one Tatsumaki were destroyed; Sarna has details recorded against some ships, but no references, so I can't check them. Are you aware of anything that lists the names of the ships that were destroyed? BrokenMnemonic (talk) 05:03, 8 May 2013 (PDT)

I look what i can do and talk then to you.--Doneve (talk) 16:51, 23 May 2013 (PDT)

XTRO: Succession Wars Vol 1[edit]

Good evening Doneve.

I was uploading some pictures to the site and noticed that most of the designs from the abovementioned XTRO are missing from it. I have the pictures, but I wanted to ask if it was allowed for me to post them as the entries for said mechs are already on the site and thought that it may have something to do with legal stuff behind it. When I asked, I was redirected to you as the man who knows the best when it comes to the pictures.

So here I am asking if there's anything wrong with me adding images to the mechs from the XTRO: SW and linking them to the appropriate 'mech pages.

Thank you for your time and answer in advance. Adridos (talk) 12:53, 9 May 2013 (PDT)

Hy Adridos, sorry for the late response. Feel free to uploade missing images, when i see some problems i talk to you.--Doneve (talk) 08:07, 28 May 2013 (PDT)


Hey - We miss you! Hope all is well! ClanWolverine101 (talk) 23:35, 21 May 2013 (PDT)

I was also wondering that. Let us know you're OK! --Rebs (talk) 00:36, 22 May 2013 (PDT)
Hi guys, all is well, the holidays are over :(.--Doneve (talk) 04:13, 22 May 2013 (PDT)


Which forum do you talking about...? Neuling (talk) 09:06, 22 May 2013 (PDT)

It's aris!--Doneve (talk) 09:08, 22 May 2013 (PDT)
I have respond to your message at the forum.Neuling (talk) 09:11, 22 May 2013 (PDT)

Melissa Steiner 02.jpg updated with color version of sketch[edit]

Melissa Steiner 02.jpg updated with color version of sketch, colored by myself. Hope I did everything correct... It's up and working... Any clue who the artist of the sketch is, or where the file originates?? Beautiful picture btw, had to do a coloring of it... hope you don't mind, and if i did anything wrong please let me know... I am new here... hope to hear from ya!


Hello Doneve,

I get notice that the material source is back online and ready for use. I hope you can fill the holes in your collection and continue your work for sarna with it. By the way I started to categorieze the pictures and oriente me after the field manuals if you had any thougts about it let me know and we can find a shared solution togehter. I have a question about maps. I'm working on a part time project to bring the available maps to sarna with a few modification like colors or the change of the border beteween two time frames. I will not overwrite your work or that of brokenmemonic. I'm only asking to find a way which is accepted by all sides.

With best regards Neuling (talk) 14:39, 26 May 2013 (PDT)

Hy Neuling, my feeling is we not need categories to pictures, only the work of the artist became a link in the category, but i think about this and let you know how we work this way. I appreciate new maps, can you uploade a example then i can look and give you a statement.--Doneve (talk) 17:38, 27 May 2013 (PDT)


Doneve - Can you upload the graphic for Wolf's Dragoons Beta Regiment for me? Thanks. ClanWolverine101 (talk) 12:33, 1 June 2013 (PDT)

Uploaded.--Doneve (talk) 12:59, 1 June 2013 (PDT)
Thanks! By the way - did you get my Aries message? ClanWolverine101 (talk) 23:21, 2 June 2013 (PDT)
Yep, and responded.--Doneve (talk) 07:39, 3 June 2013 (PDT)

Deletion reasons[edit]

Doneve why have you delete my both notes above the fire control at the year pages. I think it was not necessary to do that. Look at page 293 and 217. There you can read that are both technolgies development for support vehicles and indotruced by the Terran Hegonomy. Neuling (talk) 12:00, 2 June 2013 (PDT)

Neuling! Please read this Policy:Year Pages, we don't need red links in year pages, every entry must have one link to an article there support the link, i don't want to interrupt your work, but i follow the policy.--Doneve (talk) 12:07, 2 June 2013 (PDT)
Accepted Neuling (talk) 12:47, 2 June 2013 (PDT)


Doneve, can we modify the infobox for technologies that we include the dates for prototype and research/development. Furthermore many prototypes have special modifications in contrast to the common machines which are mass produced later. What do you think about it? Neuling (talk) 12:47, 2 June 2013 (PDT)

Sorry, but please talk to Mbear our infobox expert about this, i think he can help you.--Doneve (talk) 12:53, 2 June 2013 (PDT)

Black Knight Headsup[edit]

New Technical Readout: 3145 Federated Suns just been released. A new version of the Black Knight is among those FedSun units. It appears to be MW4 version of the Black Knight. I've listed as future link to article for it as Black Knight (Dark Age) since its complete redesign without the "II" next to its name. -- Wrangler (talk) 20:13, 3 June 2013 (PDT)

Need more pics[edit]

Doneve - Wolf's Dragoons Sourcebook, page 59. Can you upload these for me? Thanks! ClanWolverine101 (talk) 15:37, 5 June 2013 (PDT)

Okidoki, work in progress.--Doneve (talk) 15:48, 5 June 2013 (PDT)


Doneve, I was wondering how you get the images out of the sourcebook or if you get them from somewhere else. I tried a couple different options and was unable to get a good look of the images. Mainly curious. DerangedShadow (talk) 19:47, 5 June 2013 (PDT)

Morning DerangedShadow!
This is very easy at first i use the programm Irfan View, make a screen shot of the image from the source, when some text ect. are in the image i use paint net and clean the text out, i hope that helps.--Doneve (talk) 19:56, 5 June 2013 (PDT)

TRO: 3145 Mercenaries[edit]

Question: Since the TRO 3145 is going be a printed product, can the Mortorium really be lifted for the PDF Suppliment?? -- Wrangler (talk) 17:02, 10 June 2013 (PDT)

Hy Wrangler, this is a good question, i don't understand the CGL politic in some cases, ok we have the published TRO: 3145 Mercs as example, etc., i know not all faction TROs where published at this time, but the published pdf's match the moratorium. But the other question is why seperate CGL the TRO's in faction TRO's, i have a felling TRO: 3145 match all factions units, this confuse me a little bit, oh and the faction TROs are only published as pdf and not as prints.--Doneve (talk) 18:05, 10 June 2013 (PDT)
Yes (the moratorium can be lifted). Each product released by CGL is considered a standalone product. When they print the TRO 3145 we'll treat that as a separate product, because it is.--Mbear(talk) 03:31, 11 June 2013 (PDT)
This is no different from how we treated the XTROs and TRO:Prototypes products.--Mbear(talk) 06:16, 11 June 2013 (PDT)

Ulead response[edit]

Hello Doneve, take a look here:

with best regards Neuling (talk) 08:19, 13 June 2013 (PDT)

Great, thanks.--Doneve (talk) 08:20, 13 June 2013 (PDT)

Your opinion, please[edit]

Hello Doneve, as one of the founding members of the planetary project group, please take a lool at my test page User:Neuling/map-test. I uploaded several maps from the Capellan Confederation during the variant eras. The remaining (red links) will be upload tomorrow. I found a good way to colorize the maps and show the territorial gains/loses of each factions. I hope that my work is good enougth for the high standards of Neuling (talk) 13:54, 14 June 2013 (PDT)

Hy, great work, i love your maps, can you add all to BattleTechWiki:Project Planets/Planet Overhaul/Faction Map Gallery from your user:test page, i appricate this, and i think BM love it to.--Doneve (talk) 16:02, 14 June 2013 (PDT)
I have done it again. More maps on my test site. I hope my efforts were successful. Neuling (talk) 11:01, 15 June 2013 (PDT)
What do you think.I will not replace your work, because my goal is to complete our shared worked. You can take the links from my wite and put it on th right places when you think. With best regards Neuling (talk) 14:49, 15 June 2013 (PDT)
Strange no reponse sofare...Neuling (talk) 15:56, 15 June 2013 (PDT)
Sorry but i hustle with SLDF minor characters, great map work, i move your maps to the overhaul maps gallery in the next days.--Doneve (talk) 16:07, 15 June 2013 (PDT)

RWRS Stefan Amaris (Individual Ship)[edit]

Hi Doneve, i saw you added a redirect for RWRS Stefan Amaris. Why did you connected individual ship name to main article of the Class? I thought those links were reserve for individual ships. Only thing i'm aware of is there wasn't much on the RWRS Stefan Amaris itself, I didn't get chance to scan see if its mentioned anywhere. -- Wrangler (talk) 18:49, 16 June 2013 (PDT)

At first, you added the Rim Worlds Republic as manufacturer, then you add it to named vessels section, but why, the Stefan Amaris has his own article you have created and don't need a named vessel entry, the other's are ok. I talk to BrokenMnemonic our creator of some individual ship pages, i don't want to interupt your work.--Doneve (talk) 19:12, 16 June 2013 (PDT)
Hi Doneve. It is little confusing but i'm not great in explaining things so i'll try to explain as best as i can. There is now technically 3 individual things named Stefan Amaris. The Battleship Class (what i wrote), President Stefan Amaris, and RWRS Stefan Amaris (individual WarShip). The fluff says, there is actually ship named Stefan Amaris, thus why i added future link to when you guys write up a individual article on the RWRS Stefan Amaris. I would need read entire book again see if RWRS Stefan Amaris did anything or even mentioned aside from Class's fluff. -- Wrangler (talk) 20:14, 16 June 2013 (PDT)
If I may, most ship classes have their "first" vessel put in service. i.e. the first "Texas" battlecruiser was likely called the "Texas". Just saying. ClanWolverine101 (talk) 21:54, 16 June 2013 (PDT)


Hey Doneve, I see that we both added the image for the Vali at practically the same time. Would you be able to delete my image then, that way we can eliminate the unneeded image to free up space on the wiki site. Thanks DerangedShadow (talk) 20:02, 20 June 2013 (PDT)

Ugh, i see this i talk to an admin to delete the double image.--Doneve (talk) 20:05, 20 June 2013 (PDT)

sarna page size[edit]

Hy Mbear, did Nic any changes on the sarna page size. I have the feeling the size or font size is changed.--Doneve (talk) 09:36, 25 June 2013 (PDT)

It looks like he may have adjusted the width of the pages.--Mbear(talk) 10:05, 25 June 2013 (PDT)
I have the same thing. I kinda like it... ClanWolverine101 (talk) 23:52, 28 June 2013 (PDT)

Apocryphal content, part 2[edit]

Doneve, could you drop by Template talk:ApocryphalContent please? I've made a couple templates and I'd like your feedback. Thanks!--Mbear(talk) 07:24, 28 June 2013 (PDT)


Doneve - Sent you a message on Aries. Thanks. ClanWolverine101 (talk) 23:54, 28 June 2013 (PDT)

Responded.--Doneve (talk) 02:09, 29 June 2013 (PDT)

Another Pic[edit]

Wolf's Dragoons Sourcebook - page 18 - the one with the Warhammer. Can you upload this for me? Thanks! ClanWolverine101 (talk) 23:48, 10 July 2013 (PDT)

I have at this time my copy not to hand, i can uploade the pic. later.--Doneve (talk) 09:29, 11 July 2013 (PDT)
Don't worry, I got it. Thanks! ClanWolverine101 (talk) 19:44, 11 July 2013 (PDT)
Okidoky.--Doneve (talk) 19:59, 11 July 2013 (PDT)

amazon image[edit]

It looks like you had an extra bit of code in there that threw things off. By removing the file: and 191px from the line, I got it to work.--Mbear(talk) 11:27, 23 July 2013 (PDT)

Thanks.--Doneve (talk) 11:39, 23 July 2013 (PDT)

For Your Review - Beta Regiment[edit]

Beta Regiment (Wolf's Dragoons) has been posted. Thanks. ClanWolverine101 (talk) 00:05, 25 July 2013 (PDT)

Hatamoto-Chi update[edit]


Do you have an image for the Hatamotos from Technical Readout: 3145 Draconis Combine? I updated the Hatamoto-Chi page and the gallery needs an update. Thanks!--Mbear(talk) 06:20, 25 July 2013 (PDT)

Done.--Doneve (talk) 07:23, 25 July 2013 (PDT)


Hello DOneve, sorry for the delay. I will create the maps next week and will also incoporate the border changes between the different eras. Can you tell me what is needed with year and faction. That makes it alot easier for me to do it.

with best regards Neuling (talk) 09:42, 28 July 2013 (PDT)

I uploaded today the main part of the maps for 3081. Can you tell me if the quality is good enougth and what factions are missing because at the moment its late. More maps are uploaded soon. Neuling (talk) 13:49, 30 July 2013 (PDT)
It looks good for me, great work.--17:55, 11 August 2013 (PDT)

Operation Bulldog[edit]

Hey, I added Op:Bd info on Irece, also, I talked about the overhaul on my talk page; what do you think? -BobTheZombie (talk) 22:38, 7 August 2013 (PDT)

Respondet.--Doneve (talk) 22:47, 7 August 2013 (PDT)

General Motors[edit]

Hy Doneve, I picked up a few update needed tags yesterday, one of which was for General Motors and another for Federated Industries. I've added in the production details for the Hollander III and PAB-28 Sniper Suit respectively, but I'm not very comfortable editing the component production details. I've given it a shot, but can I ask you to take a look and see if I've got it right? BrokenMnemonic (talk) 03:14, 13 August 2013 (PDT)

Hy BM, it looks good, i see no problems. At this time i remove the massive double links (not needed) on various pages.--Doneve (talk) 06:38, 13 August 2013 (PDT)

Maps Project[edit]

Hello Doneve, I started my map project as promised and you can take the files to the corresponding places if needed. In the near future I can upload more maps in that quality. I will complete the maps for the entire Inner Sphere before I start with the topic/faction specific content. I would be nice to get a short review of my work. With best regards Neuling (talk) 07:46, 15 August 2013 (PDT)

Thanks a lot Smiley.gif.--Doneve (talk) 10:20, 15 August 2013 (PDT)

MUL Links[edit]

Hy Doneve,

As a Sarna tech guru, any idea what's going on with the MUL link in the Centurion (OmniMech) article? I copied the code from the Sunder article, and I have no idea why it's not working. BrokenMnemonic (talk) 12:44, 16 August 2013 (PDT)

Hy BM, you forgot a second row, the year reference= in this row you add the MUL link , take a look on the Alfar page as example, but i can't found a year in the MUL list, but i think this help you.--Doneve (talk) 12:52, 16 August 2013 (PDT)

Production Year Links[edit]

Hi Doneve. I realize i'm semi-retired as editor here. However, I like say something. Having question marks in place of a production year looks..bad. Your temporary production year list is good. I've been using "32nd Century" or "31st Century" as placeholder for when a particular unit lacks a year of production. Least it gives the reader a idea when this thing came into existence. Having master list of Mechs/tanks/etc per century is going be rather...spammy with listings. -- Wrangler (talk) 13:04, 18 August 2013 (PDT)

Hi Wrangler, i see no problems to use ?? in the production the availible data come in the new published CGL sources, and i think there is no doubt about this.--Doneve (talk) 13:47, 18 August 2013 (PDT)
You could also use Unknown instead of ??. Just a thought, not an instruction.--Mbear(talk) 05:49, 21 August 2013 (PDT)

Vehicles Timetable and Aerospace Fighter Timetable[edit]

Hy Mbear, i have a question to you! Have you any experience in semantic wiki codeing. I want to create a Vehicles Timetable and Aerospace Fighter Timetable with the same layout and functions like the BattleMech Timetable, thanks.--Doneve (talk) 09:50, 20 August 2013 (PDT)

Doneve, I don't have any experience with the semantic wiki stuff. It's on my "someday" list, but I just haven't found the time. If I remember correctly, Seth was the driving force behind the semantic wiki extension. You may have better luck speaking to him. If that doesn't work, you could try the Semantic MediaWiki User Manual--Mbear(talk) 05:47, 21 August 2013 (PDT)
I just reviewed the Combat Vehicle Timetable page. Looking good!--Mbear(talk) 10:41, 21 August 2013 (PDT)
Thanks for your review.--Doneve (talk) 10:53, 21 August 2013 (PDT)

Comm Systems[edit]

Hy Doneve, Quick question for you - where a comm system or targeting system includes an item of equipment, do they count as one entry, or two? For example, is the Master's Voice Cel-Alpha with C3i Computer either "Master's Voice Cel-Alpha with C3i Computer" or is it "Master's Voice Cel-Alpha" with "C3i Computer"? There are quite a few systems that include active probes or ECM systems, which are sometimes named uniquely (Apple Churchill Guardian ECM Suite, for example) and which would seem worth listing seperately, but I'm not sure which is the preferred standard. BrokenMnemonic (talk) 13:16, 21 August 2013 (PDT)

Hy, take a look on Spector page and klick the comsys link how i use this, and i think we follow this way, but this is my own opinion, do you want to seperate the entry?--Doneve (talk) 13:25, 21 August 2013 (PDT)
I think we should really do it the other way - at first, my thinking was the same as yours, but then I started going through TRO:3075 and found cases of there being the same comms system, only some had Guardian ECM Suites included and some didn't. That makes me think that we should seperate out ECM systems and active probes, as I think they're an upgrade rather than an integral part of the comm system, and I think it makes it easier to track the Comm systems because there'll be slightly less of them. Does that sound reasonable? (Btw - in the Spector info box, you left the "e" off the end of "Suite" Wink.gif) BrokenMnemonic (talk) 00:21, 22 August 2013 (PDT)

Line Developer[edit]

Did you see that Herb Beas has stepped down? The news on the BTech page doesn't even say if he's still working with CGL or not. BrokenMnemonic (talk) 10:52, 26 August 2013 (PDT)

Yep Herb stepped down, iam very interested who becomes the new CGL line developer.--Doneve (talk) 11:00, 26 August 2013 (PDT)
The timing, right after GenCon, makes me wonder if he's been planning on stepping down for a while. I wonder if it'll be one of the existing assistant line developers? Aren't Ben Rome, Øystein and Welshman all assistant line developers atm? BrokenMnemonic (talk) 12:15, 26 August 2013 (PDT)
Yeah the time of his step down is very strange, but we dont know what is going on in the background of CGL.--Doneve (talk) 12:38, 26 August 2013 (PDT)
I sent Herb a note on Facebook. He only stepped down as BT line developer. He's still an employee of CGL.--Mbear(talk) 04:29, 24 October 2013 (PDT)

Components Articles[edit]

Hy Doneve,
I think you deserve a big award for all your work on the components stuff, particularly after trying to contribute a bit myself. I can't give out big awards though, so instead I'd like to give you this award for your work on the Communications System article:
Substantial Addition Award, 2nd ribbon
BrokenMnemonic (talk) 14:24, 27 August 2013 (PDT)

Thanks dude, i appriciate this, but its a lot to do, i dig out the comsys talk page, when you look on it you become some headache.--Doneve (talk) 14:27, 27 August 2013 (PDT)

Hope Get Better[edit]

Hi Doneve, sorry hear your in the hospital fighting the cancer again. Hope you get better and get out soon! -- Wrangler (talk) 18:11, 27 August 2013 (PDT)

Thanks for the kind words, you know live is busy and so on, but i have good chances to fight back, and i and my family are optimists, no doubt that i leave sarna in next time.--Doneve (talk) 18:17, 27 August 2013 (PDT)
Hey Doneve, really sorry to hear you're having cancer problems. I sent you an email earlier with some information that might help. Hope you get healed soon and the cancer goes away permanently!--Raven 2C (talk) 18:26, 27 August 2013 (PDT)
Hy Raven, iam not sadly, i fight since 2008 to it, he comes he goes, my psyche is on top, but the body makes at this time a little bit problems, but will be good in next time.--Doneve (talk) 18:38, 27 August 2013 (PDT)
Doneve - Terrible news. Stay strong, and please get better soon. ClanWolverine101 (talk) 21:37, 27 August 2013 (PDT)
If anyone can beat this, it's you. I hope that you have a swift recovery surrounded by attractive nurses and good food! BrokenMnemonic (talk) 02:04, 28 August 2013 (PDT)
My thoughts are with you as you participate in a Trial of Annihilation against this. I'm sure you'll win.--Mbear(talk) 03:35, 28 August 2013 (PDT)
I'm praying for you and hope only the very best. Stay safe, comrade. -BobTheZombie (talk) 04:48, 28 August 2013 (PDT)

BattleMech Earliest Intro in Prod. Year Table[edit]

Hi there! There are a good amount of mechs with production dates earlier than those in their infoboxes. An example would be the Annihilator with its ANH-1X being earlier than the -2A. Are there ways to add to the production year table a section of earliest introduction dates? I was thinking of something like [[Earliest Introduction::Year]] on such articles. I'm not sure if this is the right method, as there may be some other easier way (probably there is). Thanks in advance--Raven 2C (talk) 19:22, 29 August 2013 (PDT)

Yep you can add the semantic property to the mech page, take a looke on the BattleMech Timetable description how you can do this, i talked with Seth in the past how we can integrade all variants in the timetable, but it dont works as we know, we must create a page of any variant page add the property and this is to much. We have a major 'mech page with the variants section and this works not really with the semantic wiki, but i hope we fix this in next time, oh and go to search bar, and take a review of our talk, if you have outstanding questions, i bring you to the right pages.--Doneve (talk)
It is ok if I experiment a bit with some pages, then? Particularly with the Timetable and a test page.--Raven 2C (talk) 19:55, 29 August 2013 (PDT)
Okidoky, when you got a test page, please give me a talk, ugg the nurse stayed by me, grmml, the next funny toxication is on stard, dont understand me false but i love ironic and so on, oh and thanks for your mail, i respont it later.--Doneve (talk) 20:45, 29 August 2013 (PDT)
I can do this on the sandbox page? Or is it not meant for this?--Raven 2C (talk) 19:19, 30 August 2013 (PDT)
For this is the sandbox, to testing out some things, be bold.--Doneve (talk) 19:38, 30 August 2013 (PDT)
Ok, so now the Sandbox page has a table of Earliest Intro Year. I suppose now all 'Mechs might need to be updated to show which variant is the original, and which is the one with the Production Year tag. Maybe this is all inefficient (a part of me is telling me it might be)? Thanks in advance--11:42, 31 August 2013 (PDT)

Removed last comment[edit]

Morning, Doneve: I don't think there is a problem with the year reference statement. I think (but am waiting for Wrangler to confirm) he was just confused as what was needed there. I think he thought it needed the year stated again, not realizing it needed a reference/citation.

I do want him to confirm my assumption, so to keep the discussion as clear as possible, I'm deleting your comment. I do believe I'm on the same 'wavelength' as BrokenMnemonic and yourself; we just need to make sure we understand what Wrangler's issue is...maybe we've solved it.--Revanche (talk|contribs) 03:37, 5 September 2013 (PDT)

Manufacturing Company Pages[edit]

Hy Doneve, I hope you're feeling robust and pampered?
I've been thinking about the Manufacturing Pages policy that we've discussed over on my talk page (people talked semantic wiki stuff, which I don't know much about, so I've been watching and paying attention and not saying much) but I had a thought. Would it be of use to you to have an infobox for manufacturers, in the same way we have them for planets and other articles? It needn't be something huge, but if a lot of companies have similar basic details, it might be useful to have one. I was just thinking about it as I worked on the Oni article - maybe something with fields like:

Manufacturer Logo/Ensign/Symbol
Manufacturer Name
Previous Company Names (if applicable)
Company founding date
Company dissolution date (if applicable)
Interstellar (multi-national) corporation: Yes/No
Primary manufacturing sites/planets
Primary products (BattleMechs, Battle Armor, Combat Vehicles, AeroSpace Fighters, etc)

What do you think? Useful, or just a logistics burden? BrokenMnemonic (talk) 13:08, 9 September 2013 (PDT)

Hy BM, all in this way is ok! I have some sleep problems!! Ok to the next, a infobox is a great idea, but i disagree in three points, the Company dissolution date, some sites where shut down and opened after short time, this can we add in fluff, Primary manufacturing sites/planets and Primary products (BattleMechs, Battle Armor, Combat Vehicles, AeroSpace Fighters we have the tables, but this is my opinion, but iam in work to bring the tables and components to work with semantic, it needs a little bit time but iam on a good way and i appriciate to have a infobox on the manuf. pages. This was the first what i feel about the infox, what do you mean? Oh and a example page was very cool then we can see what works good and not so good.--Doneve (talk) 13:47, 9 September 2013 (PDT)
Hy Doneve,
I've put together a prototype infobox and tried adding it to two manufacturers that seemed to be at different ends of the manufacturer spectrum - Luthien Armor Works and Ishikawajima-Harima Battle Armor Industries. What do you think? Is it useful and informative, or is it a waste of effort? BrokenMnemonic (talk) 06:07, 10 September 2013 (PDT)
Respondet on your talk page.--Doneve (talk) 08:03, 10 September 2013 (PDT)

BobTheZombie and Year pages[edit]

Hey, Doneve, sorry to hear about your latest health challenge. I'll keep you in my thoughts this week; let me know when you're improved, please.
As for BobTheZombie adding those blanks to the Year pages, that may have been my fault: yesterday I was reviewing that policy and wanted to check out the template by adding it to an empty Year page. He may have seen me do that and was trying to be helpful by seeking out similar redlink Year pages. I'm sure he was just being helpful. Nonetheless, at the rate the three of us are working on those pages, redlink Years should be dwindling in numbers quickly.--Revanche (talk|contribs) 13:00, 22 September 2013 (PDT)

Clan Burrock Insignia image deletion[edit]

Morning, Doneve. Why do you think File:Clan Burrock Insignia.png should be deleted? It appears to be in use and while it is not fully sourced and is in black & white, it appears to be the only image currently used for the Clans article.--Revanche (talk|contribs) 07:55, 28 September 2013 (PDT)

The reason is because it is a duplicate created by me; I did so because the old version (a .gif) wouldn't show up on the Clan page, whilst mine did. The same goes for the File:Clan Snow Raven Insignia.png. Doneve said he'd tell Nic about it, but I haven't heard back yet. -BobTheZombie (talk) 09:26, 28 September 2013 (PDT)
Roger. Moving the deletion tag until this is resolved.--Revanche (talk|contribs) 11:02, 28 September 2013 (PDT)

correct rules code[edit]

Thanks for the easier code link, I was using the code from a template I found for another unit. Dark Jaguar (talk) 12:59, 11 October 2013 (PDT)

Smoke Jaguar Clusters[edit]

Hi Doneve, I see your catching my typos thanks Smiley.gif I would be interested in your feedback on what I had added so far - Dark Jaguar (talk) 11:51, 13 October 2013 (PDT)

At first, you do a great job to add some missing military command articles, special (Clan Smoke Jaguar) we had a lack of this thanks. As second you have a good formating on your articles, keep up the good work there is a lot to do Wink.gif.--Doneve (talk) 12:26, 13 October 2013 (PDT)
Thanks its nice to known I'm on the right track Smiley.gif - Dark Jaguar (talk) 12:42, 13 October 2013 (PDT)


I have watch the Recent Changes page tick over and am in awe at the shear volume of your minor edits!!! I think you truly deserve to be nominated for another award Casual Edit Award, 5th ribbon - Dark Jaguar (talk) 13:11, 14 October 2013 (PDT)

Thanks dude.--Doneve (talk) 13:14, 14 October 2013 (PDT)
Not a problem, I can't believe you don't already have ten of them! Smiley.gif - Dark Jaguar (talk) 13:23, 14 October 2013 (PDT)


"Bad, Doneve...on your face...25 push-ups!"--Revanche (talk|contribs) 13:48, 14 October 2013 (PDT)
With the push-ups its a little bit difficult, i stay in hospital.--Doneve (talk) 13:53, 14 October 2013 (PDT)
Well, then, no spanking any nurses, then yet.--Revanche (talk|contribs) 13:59, 14 October 2013 (PDT)
Hey, no impeding his recovery - you could've added a "yet" to that order Wink.gif BrokenMnemonic (talk) 14:06, 14 October 2013 (PDT)
Done. --Revanche (talk|contribs) 16:51, 14 October 2013 (PDT)
But pinching their backsides is OK. ;)--Mbear(talk) 10:11, 15 October 2013 (PDT)

Vulture Mk III[edit]

Hi Doneve, becareful when you start listing components for the Vulture Mk III and other Clan 'Mechs. Vulture Mk III is using components that share the same name as Inner Sphere parts, but their clearly Clan tech. So they should be treated as variant of the the component. Example Vlar 300 XL used in the Vulture Mk III is made with Clan tech, but there Atlas that uses the same engine but its Inner Sphere version (Vulture's engine is lighter etc.) -- Wrangler (talk) 18:32, 15 October 2013 (PDT)

Ok, thanks for the info i correct this in the next.--Doneve (talk) 18:35, 15 October 2013 (PDT)
Hey, as update. Clan Wolf vehicles and 'Mechs appear to have Inner Sphere manufactures. This means Clan version of components with same names as Inner Sphere tech ones. Looks like its going get tricky. -- Wrangler (talk) 19:52, 19 October 2013 (PDT)
I think we can handle this, i leave a note to the components.--Doneve (talk) 19:58, 19 October 2013 (PDT)


Hi, surely your change to TF 4 no longer make it compliant with phase 1 project planets? - Dark Jaguar (talk) 14:43, 22 October 2013 (PDT)

Ähm why, whe have the system history and owner history header, i removed only the TOC tag, the ---- and the double system history tag, i think this works.--Doneve (talk) 14:54, 22 October 2013 (PDT)
The TOC tag is part of the format and is still on planets at the phase 4 stage. Plus the ---- is part of the phase 1 format which says all previous information to be left on the page under it BattleTechWiki:Project Planets/Planet Overhaul. That is right isn't it? - Dark Jaguar (talk) 14:59, 22 October 2013 (PDT)
I must talk with Revanche our project leader, but we need not more the TOC, since Nic changed the code, and phase 4 is far at the moment from us, some thinks has changed since Revanche had a wiki break, some details must became a revamp on the BattleTechWiki:Project Planets/Planet Overhaul page, i talk to you when we have figured out some thinks, hope this help at the moment.--Doneve (talk) 15:08, 22 October 2013 (PDT)
That's cool Smiley.gif I'll just update planet data for now and continue with phase 1 when you clarify. - Dark Jaguar (talk) 15:14, 22 October 2013 (PDT)
Yeah be bold Wink.gif.--Doneve (talk) 15:18, 22 October 2013 (PDT)

Wow. Just, Wow.[edit]


I've been reviewing the recent changes logs and noticed that you've basically reformatted all the variant sections on 'Mechs, AeroFighters, etc. with little or no help. I also saw that you added Update Needed to the battle armor and vehicles of RS3145NTNU. With that in mind, please add this to your awards board: Substantial Addition Award, 3rd ribbon.--Mbear(talk) 04:28, 24 October 2013 (PDT)

Thanks.--Doneve (talk) 08:57, 24 October 2013 (PDT)

Why remove Overlord A3 from Earthworks?[edit]

Why did you remove it? A pocket warship is different from a dropship, IMO. Not every dropship manufacturer makes the pocket warship variant. I feel it should be left there. Aldous (talk) 18:32, 26 October 2013 (PDT)

I double checked the reference, the ref. note was wrong and so i removed your edit, i cant found any info in TRO:Prototypes of the Overlord A3 you added.--Doneve (talk) 18:45, 26 October 2013 (PDT)
Its in the fluff for the Vengeance. Aldous (talk) 19:10, 26 October 2013 (PDT)
Okay i checked this, and correct this.--Doneve (talk) 19:11, 26 October 2013 (PDT)

Clan unit name issue[edit]

Good day sir, I noticed that some of the Clan unit articles are named strangely, e.g., 18th Assault (Clan Coyote); in this case, the logical name for it would be "18th Assault Cluster (Clan Coyote)". Do you think that should it be changed, or is there a reason for the current naming? -BobTheZombie (talk) 17:13, 30 October 2013 (PDT)

Hy Bob, i think about of the name changes in the past, there is no reason, we can change it, when i look in Field Manual: Warden Clans, FM:CRC etc. there named ex. 18th Assault Cluster, the most articles are created in the past and the the contributors most of them dont write anymore on sarna, also be bold, if you want i help you a little bit by the changes.--Doneve (talk) 17:29, 30 October 2013 (PDT)
I might as well change it, after all, it wouldn't be hard to change back if it was right in the first place. Thanks for the input! -BobTheZombie (talk) 17:44, 30 October 2013 (PDT)
Now that I look at it, ALL Clan unit names are like that, so perhaps they did have a reason. I dunno. I'll revert my recent edits and leave it on the back burner until it's further discussed. -BobTheZombie (talk) 17:53, 30 October 2013 (PDT)
Ok, but the canon sources stated the most with the Cluster name! And i follow canon.--Doneve (talk) 17:57, 30 October 2013 (PDT)
I will probably just do it later; I have newer projects that I've strayed from, and need to finish those before getting too many things started. -BobTheZombie (talk) 18:01, 30 October 2013 (PDT)
This is a Project Military Commands guideline. Adding "Cluster" is redundant, much like adding "Regiment" or "RCT". --Scaletail (talk) 19:00, 30 October 2013 (PDT)
Ok, thanks for the info.--Doneve (talk) 19:01, 30 October 2013 (PDT)
Thank you for clarifying, Scaletail. -BobTheZombie (talk) 20:11, 30 October 2013 (PDT)

Updated CSS for Combat Vehicles (and other sections)[edit]


I'm assuming you want a border line to appear under the heading text, rather than adjusting the font size. (That's what I saw on Scaletail's talk page.) That's an easy request.

Go to My Preferences and select Appearance. You should see your selected CSS file there. Click the Edit CSS link. A new page opens up. Click Edit like you do any other wiki page.

Paste in the following CSS code:

#bodyContent h2 {text-decoration:none;} /*turns off existing underline */
/*There's a SPAN tag inside the H2. This is what we add our border to.*/
#bodyContent h2
border-bottom:1px solid black; /* You can specify color by name or hexadecimal value. Any CSS reference will have this information. I'm using black. */
display:block; /*forces the span to take up the entire area, which makes border stretch across screen*/

That should give you what you're looking for.--Mbear(talk) 03:56, 31 October 2013 (PDT)

Thanks a lot Mbear, it works.--Doneve (talk) 09:24, 31 October 2013 (PDT)
Doneve, do you think that you could revert those vehicle pages' layouts back that you changed from (back to ==)? -BobTheZombie (talk) 18:50, 4 November 2013 (PST)
Yep, i do this, i maked the changes before i had the CSS code from Mbear.--Doneve (talk) 18:52, 4 November 2013 (PST)
Thanks. -BobTheZombie (talk) 19:03, 4 November 2013 (PST)
May I help with changing them back? -BobTheZombie (talk) 16:08, 7 November 2013 (PST)


Hello, I was wondering if you'd help me fix the table on the Operation Guerrero Unit Deployment Tables page; I want the planets' names centered, but can't figure it out. -BobTheZombie (talk) 13:06, 2 November 2013 (PDT)

Hm, the best way is you talk to Mbear our coding expert, but i look what i can do.--Doneve (talk) 13:12, 2 November 2013 (PDT)

Removed FM:3145 from Minor News page[edit]


Just FYI: I removed your post about editors being able to use FM:3145 as a source, since they can't. Granted the PDF is two months old, but the hardcopy hasn't been released yet. This means we can't actually use FM3145 yet, no matter how much we want to. *EXPLETIVE DELETED* (I really want to update a bunch of articles.)--Mbear(talk) 11:57, 11 November 2013 (PST)

The Moratorium date was correct for the PDF but not the hardcopy. So it's been changed too.--Mbear(talk) 11:58, 11 November 2013 (PST)
Nixon, is that you? Hahaha! Cheesy.gif -BobTheZombie (talk) 14:50, 11 November 2013 (PST)
Hahaha, yes i think he is still alive Cheesy.gif.--Doneve (talk) 16:13, 11 November 2013 (PST)
This waiting for the FM is almost as annoying as the delay on FM3085. *grumble mutter grumble mutter*--Mbear(talk) 05:10, 12 November 2013 (PST)
Hey, good news. CGL released a street date for FM: 3145. They say it'll be out on December 18th. So we can start using the FM after February 18, 2014. And I've updated the product page to show that.--Mbear(talk) 08:16, 25 November 2013 (PST)

(Old) Jade Falcon references query[edit]

I've been scanning some of the 3050s details about Jade Falcon officers and actions, and I'm wondering about two things in particular: the Falcon Guard officers who got killed at Twycross (thanks, Kai Allard-Liao), and the Falcons' second attack on Camelot Command, as per Merc. Handbook 3055. Are they obsolete topics that no-one wants to see, or could I go and write them up? Nuclear-Fridge (talk) 05:56, 13 November 2013 (PST)

1st Tikonov Guards[edit]

I was using the 2nd Tikonov Guards as a TEMPLATE so I wouldn't have to type so damn much. Now I have to start over. Aldous (talk) 06:08, 13 November 2013 (PST)

Fair enough Aldous. May I suggest using the {{Underconstruction}} template next time to avoid such a misunderstanding.
I'll revert the article so you can continue where you left off. Turns out I cannot undo or revert edits once another user has made subsequent edits. Not with my phone's limited interface anyways. Frabby (talk) 08:58, 13 November 2013 (PST)
Hey, Aldous, you can always go through the History tab at the top and copy that over, so your work isn't gone, just moved. -BobTheZombie (talk) 11:49, 13 November 2013 (PST)

Tikonov Guards[edit]

Doneve, I just saw the 4th Tikonov Guards page you put up, with facts from FM:3145...which is still under moratorium.

I've commented out the content until FM3145 isn't under moratorium anymore. If you see others using FM3145 as a source, please let them know they need to stop. Thanks!--Mbear(talk) 10:24, 13 November 2013 (PST)

Ok, i do this with the other pages i created what you do with the 4th page, iam also annoyed to wait of the FM:3145 hardcopy.--Doneve (talk) 10:27, 13 November 2013 (PST)

Military rank italics[edit]

May I ask why you converting military ranks to italics? That's not in the style guide. --Scaletail (talk) 17:15, 18 November 2013 (PST)

Of course rules can be changed. That said, I don't think we should be using italics on military ranks. It might look good but it is not correct grammar. I might be in the minority in this opinion, though. If you feel strongly, bring it up on the Manual of Style discussion page. --Scaletail (talk) 19:55, 18 November 2013 (PST)
Respons on your talk page.--Doneve (talk) 19:56, 18 November 2013 (PST)
Thanks! --Scaletail (talk) 20:01, 18 November 2013 (PST)

Maps and military organization[edit]

Hello Doneve, it is some time that I participate active at sarna, but that will change soon. I will use a spell checker to improve my writing skills over the time. My question is, can you put the maps on the corresponding sites. My goal is to upload maps for all available eras and factions (when possible). The maps will be colorize and include the border changes. Another idea was to show the different military districts and deployment. For example Draconis Combine => Dieron District => Kessel Prefecture => 3025 (only unit names and deployment). I can provide maps with only the outline or with planets. That depends on the decision of the moderators.

With best regards Neuling (talk) 15:32, 29 November 2013 (PST)

Hy, great idea, can you uploade a sample map, and yes i help you.--Doneve (talk) 16:30, 29 November 2013 (PST)
I will show you some examples at my user page later.Neuling (talk) 08:49, 1 December 2013 (PST)

structure of military units article[edit]

I think the structure of many miliary units sites aren't good organized. For example, the pages for the clan toumans. It would be better when we can split the page into smaller section for the different eras (3050/3052/). Former units is an issue to the page in my view. The larger formations changed over the time. Large brigades like the Donegal Guards are smaller in 3085 in contrast to 3025 or earlier. It's only a thought. Perhaps we can start a discussion about the topic. Neuling (talk) 08:49, 1 December 2013 (PST)

Yes, I've also noticed that problem Neuling; perhaps you could repost this thought in a high traffic place or on more user talk pages to get the ball rolling. -BobTheZombie (talk) 14:32, 4 December 2013 (PST)

War of 3039[edit]

Hy Doneve,
I think I may have been a dolt. I'm looking at the table on page 141 on H:Wo3039, and I just realised that the far right hand column is the location of the units in 3040, when the war was over and they'd moved back home or to their new postings. That means I could be making entries for 3038 and 3040. It also means that if units didn't actively take part, at least according to the table (12th Star Guards, Wylie's Coyotes, New Hessen Armoured Scouts, etc, I could actually be listing it as one entry, 3038-3040.
why didn't I notice that before I'd done half a pageful? Sad.gif BrokenMnemonic (talk) 04:33, 4 December 2013 (PST)

Ugh i see it, but now iam by the Draconis Combine units and want to finish my 3038 work.--Doneve (talk) 08:46, 4 December 2013 (PST)

Opinion sought[edit]

Hello, Doneve. Can you pop over to here? I'm trying get official opinion of this. Thanks -- Wrangler (talk) 19:43, 5 December 2013 (PST)


Hello. You told ArcRoyalRavager that FM:3145 "expired" on Febuary, 3014. That hasn't happened yet so why use "expired"? Can we use the book or not?--Aldous (talk) 14:12, 9 December 2013 (PST)

Take a look her [1], there is listed the hardcopy came out on December 18 3013, as this statement we can use the source after 2 months of the publication.--Doneve (talk) 14:19, 9 December 2013 (PST)
Ähm, Aldous respectfully i added the correct date, you need new glasses ;).--Doneve (talk) 19:41, 11 December 2013 (PST)
I think Aldous may be confused by the word "expired"? Expired is past tense, which suggests that the moratorium has ended. I read what you'd typed as "expires", and it wasn't until now I realised that you'd written "expired" - finger trouble maybe, as s and d are next to eac other on the keyboard? BrokenMnemonic (talk) 00:57, 12 December 2013 (PST)

Awards Time[edit]

Hy Doneve,
I realised that I haven't given you an award in ages, despite the fact that you're continuing to power away with the edits here - not to mention working from your sickbed, even when surrounded by pretty nurses. So, I want to give you this award: Casual Edit Award, 6th ribbon If I read the links correctly, you're the first person to reach the 6th ribbon for this award Smiley.gif BrokenMnemonic (talk) 00:07, 18 December 2013 (PST)

Hi dude, thanks a lot, suck i must stay another two weeks at home, then i can go back to work, its ironical but i want to work and see my friends on work.--Doneve (talk) 00:19, 18 December 2013 (PST)
A fresh start for the New Year, then Smiley.gif Did we just finish the combat vehicles changes? BrokenMnemonic (talk) 13:12, 20 December 2013 (PST)
Fine, another question what we do with the WarShips?--Doneve (talk) 13:27, 20 December 2013 (PST)
That's a tricky one, because WarShips and DropShips don't really have any equipment that can be mounted in them other than the L-F Battery in WarShips. And all the clans one have that hull sealant gimmick, but other than that... BrokenMnemonic (talk) 13:57, 20 December 2013 (PST)

3061 Entry[edit]

Hello. Where did you find the St. Ives War entries? Its all wrong. --Aldous (talk) 10:26, 21 December 2013 (PST)

The work you have done on the page is great, it look good to me, only the last Periphery Forces sent under Trinity Alliance (CCAF Allied) Table must become a cleanup, but i know your work is not done.--Doneve (talk) 10:44, 21 December 2013 (PST)
What novel/books detail the events of the 2nd Star League Conference? Also, I was referring to the year 3061 entry you made.--Aldous (talk) 19:40, 21 December 2013 (PST)
You found some info in The Killing Fields and Threads of Ambition and Shattered Sphere, i hope this help you, oh as second i dont make any entry on the page i add also link brackets on the tabels, look in to the page history.--Doneve (talk) 19:50, 21 December 2013 (PST)

Capellan Civil War[edit]

The article is not finished. The citations will be added AFTER this is done. Kindly remove the tag as I don't want anyone else editing until it is complete.--Aldous (talk) 22:18, 23 December 2013 (PST)

If you don't want anyone editing the article until you're done you need to add the {{inuse}} template to it to show that it's under construction. You're the only editor I'm aware of currently doing a multiple-day edit to the same post without adding citations as you go, so it would be a good idea to make sure you're adding that template to ongoing projects otherwise other editors are likely to start trying to add references or adding citation needed notes while you're editing.BrokenMnemonic (talk) 01:54, 24 December 2013 (PST)
More like multiple-month edit. I will leave the inuse tag in place.--Aldous (talk) 03:58, 24 December 2013 (PST)

Merry Christmas[edit]

Hy Doneve
I hope you and your family have a splendid Christmas, full of all the finest things in life - and that Santa brings you your own personal Mad Cat, to use on heretics, infidels and people who insist on talking through movies Smiley.gif I hope that you have a fun and relaxing holiday. BrokenMnemonic (talk) 23:34, 24 December 2013 (PST)

Thanks BM, grml i dont got to have a Mad Cat, but my daughter build a Lego 'Mech for me, incredible it was a Wasp, when i found time today ore in next days i sent you a picture to your email.--Doneve (talk) 23:42, 24 December 2013 (PST)
That Wasp sounds great! I didn't get any BattleTech stuff myself, but I got a nice stack of books to read through and expansions to three of my favourite boardgames. It was actually nice hanging out with family today - although I've read two of my new books already Wink.gif BrokenMnemonic (talk) 16:07, 25 December 2013 (PST)
What are the other two board games you favor?--Doneve (talk) 16:11, 25 December 2013 (PST)
Merry Christmas!!! ClanWolverine101 (talk) 16:39, 25 December 2013 (PST)
I got the Daybreak expansion for Battlestar Galactica, the Extreme Danger expansion for Flash Point: Fire Rescue, and the Crossroads expansion for Kingdom Builder - the latter imported from Germany for half the price it is here Smiley.gif BrokenMnemonic (talk) 13:47, 26 December 2013 (PST)

Black May[edit]

Hello. I am starting the Black May entry for my Capellan Civil War article and I noticed that the Black May article here is pretty good. How much can I lift from this? Can I copy it wholesale?--Aldous (talk) 03:20, 25 December 2013 (PST)

It's a judgement call - for something like events, like the Reunification War or Black May incidents, it's often better to use the {{Main|Black May}} to link back to the main article, because then if we get more information on the Black May attacks in future products, updating the Black May article by default updates everything that's linking to it, rather than having to copy the extra detail into a host of other articles. BrokenMnemonic (talk) 16:03, 25 December 2013 (PST)


Hello Doneve, I was in the middle of revamping the Ares when you did your change. I was lucky i didn't loose the update in the process. I missed the picture which was imported to the article from the TRO. -- Wrangler (talk) 15:11, 25 December 2013 (PST)

Sorry for the edit conflict, iam in work with the manufacturing center page.--Doneve (talk) 15:14, 25 December 2013 (PST)
Its okay. This isn't first time this happened. Were on alot, conflicts will accure. I should had underconstruction template. Old habits are hard to break when you edit on a circus high-wire. Have good Christmas. -- Wrangler (talk) 15:39, 25 December 2013 (PST)