BattleTechWiki talk:Project Planets

• Archive1

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I found two more planets for you guys: Siroc and Gwithian. --Neufeld 12:30, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Also: St. Jean --Neufeld 12:36, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Hi Guys, how's the renovation coming along? I have sad news, Bad_Syntax stopped working on CBT_Cartographer because he got pissed off at the CBT forum mods. I've decided to continue part of his work (identifying the systems, their coordinates and which faction owns them at a given era) Do you guys think you'd be able to use that data? The coordinates are not canon, and my initial study showed that there are some coordinates that are rather off, (such as Far Reach in RWR) so I hope you guys don't use them yet.

As for the number of systems, based on Oystein's maps from various publications, Syntax and I came up with 3,004 systems with established coordinates, and I'm about 90% done with the faction ownership per era (I actually have 3063 100% complete, with 3067 a close second at 99.93%)

I could use some help with checking the coordinates against the published maps (by comparing the image produced from his CBT_Cartographer and the map to see which systems are in the wrong place), and verification (and filling in the blanks) on the faction ownerships. Drop me a PM in the CBT forums (under "VoltAmpere") if you guys want a copy of my current database (just 1 excel sheet at about 700kB). I'm just waiting for the House Kurita Handbook to fill in the rest of the blanks, but I don't expect to get 100% on all of the eras I'm working on.

Also, I haven't really started with the maps of the founding of each house. -Volt 15:34, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

No Record

Hi Guys, question on Ownership History, does "No Record" mean we have no record IRL, or the system is either undiscovered/abandoned in-universe? -Volt 16:32, 28 February 2012 (PST)

Hy Volt, this indicates we found the planet on no canon map, i hope this helps.--Doneve 16:40, 28 February 2012 (PST)

Copy, thanks Doneve.-Volt 18:09, 28 February 2012 (PST)

Doneve has the right of it - "No record" was a compromise worked out by the team to deal with the situation of not having a planet on the map, but also not having a confirmed founding date for any colony or settlement on the planet. The statement by TPTB that the worlds which show up on maps, particularly Periphery worlds, are simply those worlds worthy of note or of significance and that many other worlds have a human population but aren't important enough to show up led to the problem of a world not appearing on a map being absence of proof, rather than proof of absence. TPTB are tricksy like that! BrokenMnemonic 23:38, 28 February 2012 (PST)

Distances between Planets

I tried to make a matrix that lined up each planet horizontally and vertically then shows the dynamic distance between the two (like the multiplication table). Suffice to say that my laptop crashed after I pasted the formula on the 9,051,072 cells... hooray for technology not evolving fast enough to be able to do what the human mind wants done...-Volt 18:12, 28 February 2012 (PST) Oh and the file shot up from 800kB to 7MB in a matrix of 96 x 3009 systems... guess that's just not practical at this time.-Volt 18:18, 28 February 2012 (PST)

With this much data, you'd probably be better off looking at some sort of customized programme designed to chew through the co-ordinates one system at a time, rather than a spreadsheet... although, you could probably get away with doing it in a spreadsheet, if you did it in stages. I think S.gage was working on producing new tables showing the nearest neighbours for planets and the distances involved, but he was working one planet at a time to keep things manageable. Trying to map 3,009 systems against each other... that's getting into DNA mapping territory ;) BrokenMnemonic 23:47, 28 February 2012 (PST)

I haven't given up :) I'm going to make a dedicated file for the relative distances, just because there isn't one available yet [yes, I got hit by the crazy bus as a kid]-Volt 00:56, 29 February 2012 (PST)

HAHA 125MB!-Volt 18:04, 5 March 2012 (PST)

OK... I'll wait until I get home before downloading that one! Given that Doneve is updating all the owner histories at the moment, I think I'll start adding the nearest neighbours tables tonight using your table of doom. BrokenMnemonic 23:36, 5 March 2012 (PST)

ETA: Sadly, I've only got Office 2003, and that has issues opening the spreadsheet. It can't handle the number of columns, and can't handle the formula in those cells it can see even after running through the MicroSoft file converter :(

Would it be possible to upload a version that has just the values in it (not the formulae) broken down into something like one letter of the alphabet per worksheet for the columns? BrokenMnemonic 11:34, 6 March 2012 (PST)

Hi BM, sure, gimme a couple min to convert and upload it.-Volt 15:14, 6 March 2012 (PST)

Sorry to cut in, guys, but BM: look for and download the opensource OpenOffice.org suite. It stays updated with MS file types and, of course, it's free. I only use MS Office at work now.--Revanche ^{(talk|contribs)} 16:28, 6 March 2012 (PST)

Well, for those who have not yet installed OpenOffice, I'm currently uploading the xls 97-2003 compatible version as requested. The file is 150MB so it will take a bit of time to upload. I'll post the link once it's up.-Volt 17:20, 6 March 2012 (PST)

XLS 97-2003 compatible-Volt 19:31, 6 March 2012 (PST)

Thank you I'm using a version of OpenOffice on my netbook at home, but not on my home desktop. My desktop is getting a little cranky with age, and as it's got all of my video editing software on it I try not to upset it too much, just in case! BrokenMnemonic 23:32, 6 March 2012 (PST)

I've been sitting on a lot of inter-system distances, and I am not certain if those I have generated are correct (I was apparently using old numbers...?). Does this file correct these displacements?--S.gage 21:09, 7 March 2012 (PST)

Um, this file may be a bit large for my 3-year old laptop...--S.gage 21:17, 7 March 2012 (PST)

OK, I got this to open, but before I go nuts putting in distances, I want to make certain, how were the initial locations of each of the systems generated. If we start putting these into the articles, are we going to need to re-enter these in the future?--S.gage 21:26, 7 March 2012 (PST)

Volt's best placed to answer this, but my understanding is that some of the source maps used turned out to have an inaccurate axis because of the way the images are stretched to make them fit onto pages. So, Volt's recalculated the co-ordinates using those maps where the axes are consistent, and it's those adjusted co-ordinates that are in the document. So, that's what Doneve and I are using for the nearest neighbour distances. The co-ordinates for the existing planets will probably need adjusting slightly in a lot of cases, but that's a job being put off until Handbook: House Kurita appears and gives us the remaining missing maps from the Handbook series. BrokenMnemonic 01:19, 8 March 2012 (PST)

Well, anyway this spreadsheet was generated, I simply cannot manipulate it - I started trying to sort, realized the .xlsx was too large, then gradually tried copying smaller and smaller portions of the parent doc to do any work. Finally, I tried to copy a single column, waited for 1 hour to allow for processing time, and still found my computer's Excel had frozen. My computer is just too slow--S.gage 08:09, 8 March 2012 (PST)

Hi Gage, I think Doneve actually called that piece of work the "Doom sheet". I made a more user-friendly file, it's larger at 150MB, but I chopped up the workbook into several sheets by letter and made the coordinates 3-decimal fixed values instead of formulas based on the extrapolated+consolidated coordinates.

To answer your question, BM got the gist of it. Bad_Syntax's original work was based off of the 3075 map, which Oystein said had probable scaling issues when the layout artists fit the map on the sourcebook pages, he mentioned further that it was possible that most other maps could have that issue as well. So, to minimize the potential for error I decided to use a base that was not from a sourcebook [ie independent work, as Oystein suggested] so I used the 3130 map from his website. I followed Syntax's methodology to the letter and even used his source file as reference for generating my master file so the only discrepancy between our coordinates should by due to scaling differences and the odd typo [so far we've only found one].

For the deep periphery, HL, NC, JarnFolk & Clan systems, I had no choice but to use sourcebook info [3067 deep periphery map from War of Reaving] because no other info was available at the time. I have a master file that records raw coordinates [not converted to LY] that will dynamically rescale and offset the [so far] 3,009 systems to Terra-origin reference If/When new information becomes available on the distances, scales or even coordinates.

I've asked Oystein if it were possible for him to give me a working scale, distances, or coordinates for 5 systems but of course I knew that was not going to happen and he politely indirectly refused. So until then, I really hope these numbers are acceptable. I have yet to compare the maps generated by this list to the official maps but I'm hoping they're at least within 0.5LY accurate.-Volt 03:04, 9 March 2012 (PST)

2765 data

Hi guys, I know this is going to be a major headache, but can you hold off from updating the distances on the systems that are NOT found in the 2596 and 3040 map but are present in the 2765 map? I will be migrating to the 2765 coordinates on these systems to get a more consistent scaling. Also, head's up, I inadvertently forgot to add Dalmantia to the 3009 systems. I remember Bad_Syntax recording it in his version 0 list before but we've since stricken it out because we couldn't find it. Turns out it was visible in the 2822 and 2864 HB:HD maps beside Oshika [DC]. I'll add the coordinates and the distance in the next update once I've completed incorporating the 2765 map. Potential "new" systems will make a mess of the Nearby Systems list I think.-Volt 21:45, 9 March 2012 (PST)

Ok i stop to revamp the nearby systems, how long you need to update the spreadsheet?--Doneve 06:32, 10 March 2012 (PST)

I will probably need a week to complete the transfer of my source [raw] coordinates from the handbooks to the 2765 map, as well as catalog the new systems. I will upload the new coordinates and distances list once I'm done.-Volt 13:55, 10 March 2012 (PST)

DC 2765:

19 new systems, 2 of which were already visible in the previous handbook maps but I was not able to incorporate. 18 systems that might change coordinates as I will transfer the raw data from the handbooks to the 2765 two-page map: Celebes, Grootfontein, New Sumatra, Okaya, Miyazaki, Tangerz, Hildaman, Elix, Nai-Stohl, Périgueux, Oldsmith, Wittington, Westfield, Goldlure, Tovetin, Belacruz, Dunklewälderdunklerflüssenschattenwelt and Christiania-Volt 18:07, 11 March 2012 (PDT)

CC 2765:

4 new systems, 144 existing systems might change coordinates, and 3 systems' names changed sometime between 2768 to 2822.-Volt 04:40, 11 March 2012 (PDT)

TH 2765:

No change-Volt 05:06, 11 March 2012 (PDT)

LC 2765:

40 systems might have changes in coordinates, no new systems-Volt 19:00, 13 March 2012 (PDT)

FS 2765:

82 systems might have changes in coordinates, 25 new systems [or probably renames, I'll need to check after I'm done with LC & FWL]-Volt 02:14, 12 March 2012 (PDT)

FWL 2765:

57 systems might have changes in coordinates, no new systems-Volt 05:25, 13 March 2012 (PDT)

Periphery & Independents:

Cooperland coordinates might change. 2 new independent systems. Rezak's Hole erroneously appears on the map-Volt 06:33, 11 March 2012 (PDT)

MOC, 16 systems might have changes in coordinates, no new systems.-Volt 17:29, 11 March 2012 (PDT)

OA, 100 systems might have changes in coordinates, no new systems.-Volt 18:17, 11 March 2012 (PDT)

TC, 32 systems might have changes in coordinates, no new systems.-Volt 18:41, 11 March 2012 (PDT)

RWR, 108 systems might have changes in coordinates, no new systems, although we see the debut of Waypoint and Otisberg. This is the earliest record these two are visible, the next time we see these will be in the 3040 map.-Volt 21:29, 11 March 2012 (PDT)

I made a big bad error with the Periphery and Chainelane Isles systems. I had the wrong offset on the 3085 map so those systems would have new coordinates in the next release.

Hmm, when the 16 systems change the coordinates to the existing, we become new cooardinates to nearby systems and that change some value on the spreadsheed, but i think we use the newest cannon map, and work from this, and leave notes on the planet articles, but this give me some headache.--Doneve 17:24, 10 March 2012 (PST)

Well, I'm not done with Capellan Confederaiton yet but I already have 127 systems that MIGHT change coordinates, which is why I asked to hold off on doing the nearby systems because at this time I don't know if the changes will be significant. I guess this will put my integration formulas to the test to see just how accurate they will be.-Volt 03:50, 11 March 2012 (PDT)

The moratorium on Historical: Liberation of Terra means that we can't create entries for planets that have only ever been shown on the 2765 map, but if there are any that were visible on other maps and which I just didn't notice when I was doing my various updates, let me know and I'll create new entries for them. I noticed one straight away - Dunklewälderdunklerflüssenschattenwelt/Bob, which is on the Outworlds Alliance 2750 map in Handbook: Major Periphery States and which I simply missed previously. BrokenMnemonic 01:10, 14 March 2012 (PDT)

There are now exactly 3060 systems [Star Systems, Clusters. Nebulae are not included] depicted in maps from Oystein from 2722 to 3130. Of the 3060, 49 are unique to H:LoTv1. At this time Sarna has 3014 Planets, I'll make a comparison and reconcile the two lists then get back to you.-Volt 19:24, 14 March 2012 (PDT)

Finished transferring the coordinates on systems found on the left half of the 2-page 2765 map, and it looks like for 98-99% of those systems, the values are identical rounding off to one decimal place. The remaining 1-2% are 0.1LY off. I'll try to finish the right half tonight and upload the updated systems file with the new systems included and post a link in the BattleTech forums.-Volt 21:54, 14 March 2012 (PDT)

done!-Volt 03:20, 18 March 2012 (PDT)

Great thanks .--Doneve 05:23, 18 March 2012 (PDT)

You're welcome! Oh and for your benefit, I added a column on the spreadsheet that automatically says which are within 2 Jumps of a certain system. If for example you want to see what systems are within two Jumps of A Place based on the 1 Jump = 29.35467LY = 9parsec data then just select "A Place" in cell E2 then use the filter on column F or E. Column E shows the distance while F shows the number of jumps. I don't think I'd be able to release a full distance matrix soon because of work, so I hope the file will be able to keep you busy. My previous matrix had a formula error so the distances computed were actually farther than actual (ie, you will have to redo the ones you've already finished here on BTW) sorry about that. If you need a smaller file that doesn't show faction ownership, I uploaded one named coordinates + distance.xlsx that Rev requested.-Volt 19:05, 18 March 2012 (PDT)

Thanks for the sheet, but i wait with fix the coordinates and distances when you uploaded the Planet Distance Spreadsheet (how long need you to do this), it's easier for me to fix all in one and not at first the coordinates and then as second the distances.--Doneve 07:40, 19 March 2012 (PDT)

Hy again i stard to fix the [A] section of the coordinates, and the distances so good i can, when you have uploaded your new distance spreadsheet i correct the minor errors on the distance section, but when i wait this become a never ending story.--Doneve 10:14, 19 March 2012 (PDT)

Hi Doneve. Yeah you can resume your excellent work, I just remembered though, I'd like to remind you not to add the 49 "new" systems found in H:LoTv1 yet because of the Moratorium. Basically if it's not on Sarna yet, and not in the list I typed below then most probably it's a new system.-Volt 19:29, 20 March 2012 (PDT)

Systems list

I've compared the Sarna's Planets (sic) list with the one Bad_Syntax and I made and here are the results:

Not in my list:

Cermak (Apocryphal, no coordinates)

Tibolt (Apocryphal, no coordinates)

Champollion (no coordinates)

Farhome (no coordinates)

Kaetetôã (no coordinates)

Mesozoa (no coordinates)

Roxborough (no coordinates)

Siroc (no coordinates)

Thomas (no coordinates)

Not in Sarna:

Chaine Cluster (7) (CI, FR:3085 map) [moratorium: May 21st, 2012]

Christiania (DC, HB:HS 2822 map)

Colleen (Clan, WoR 3067 map)

Daol (CC, HB:MPS 2750 TC map)

Dunklewälderdunklerflüssenschattenwelt (aka Bob, DC, HB:MPS 2750 OA map)

EC821-387D (Independent, H:OK, 2821 map)

Elix (DC, HB:HS 2822 & 2864 map)

Fasa_(system) (Independent, H:OK, 2821 map)

Haublan (CI, FR:3085 map) [moratorium: May 21st, 2012]

Idrmach (CI, FR:3085 map) [moratorium: May 21st, 2012]

Miyako (DC, H:RW 2596 map)

Miyazaki (DC, HB:HS 2822 & 2864 map)

Mokpo (DC, H:RW 2596 map)

Nai-Stohl (DC, HB:MPS 2750 RWR map & HB:HS 2822 map)

Pietermaritzburg (FS, HB:MPS 2750 TC map)

Quimper (FS, HB:HD 2822 & 2864 map) (2nd one, became Chirac in 3130 map)

Rondane (CI, FR:3085 map) [moratorium: May 21st, 2012]

Tovetin (DC, HB:HS 2822 & 2864 map)

Vaajakoski (DC, H:RW 2596 map) (this was actually named "Sendai" in H:RW but Oystein changed the name in the updated 2765 PDF map of H:LoTv1, that overwrites the H:RW 2596 map)

Weldry (CC, HB:MPS 2750 TC map)

Zangul (CC, HB:MPS 2750 TC map)

Need edits:

change Tanite Worlds to Tanis (Clan, WoR 3067 map)

Duplicate Entries/Typos:

Hahira and Harira, Hahira is the correct spelling (FS)

Mica_I should be Mica_II (Independent)

Jordan does not exist, it's a duplicate entry of Quiberas (OA)

There are also over 10 Duplicate entries due to name changes (such as Takata and New Start but I accidentally lost my list while typing this so I was not able to transfer them here, hope someone else can cross-reference em?

Anyway, you guys can now start turning those Reds to Blues!-Volt 21:14, 14 March 2012 (PDT)

How many of these planets existed on maps prior to the Historical: Liberation of Terra 2765 map? That particular map's under moratorium for a few months yet, but I know that I spotted Bob in a map in Handbook: Major Periphery States that I'd missed, so I can get any others like that done quickly. BrokenMnemonic 00:48, 20 March 2012 (PDT)

All the systems I typed above are shown on maps before the release of H:LoTv1. I have not posted the names of the 49 new systems on BTW due to the moratorium. However, in the previous maps, Dunklewälderdunklerflüssenschattenwelt and Vaajakoski were named differently: Bob as you surmised, and Sendai, respectively. Sendai however apparently turns out to be an erroneously named system according to Oystein's reply, which the 2765 map corrects.-Volt 06:14, 20 March 2012 (PDT)

Sounds good - I'll start working up new entries. I'm not sure if I have the current co-ordinates file at work, so I'll ask Doneve nicely to fill out the co-ordinates if I don't get to them first... You may need to point me at the relevant maps, though, as I don't recognise some of the names. BrokenMnemonic 01:01, 21 March 2012 (PDT)

I placed the maps where the systems show up. I deleted the first entry, accidentally added it to the list, as it's a new system only seen in 2765.-Volt 04:58, 21 March 2012 (PDT)

Are you sure that you can make out Nai-Stohl on the HB:MPS map on p. 25? Even with the fact that where it is lies close to the edge of the page, I'm looking between Moore and Kessel and I can't see it, even though I can see half of Alnasi, which is slightly further spinward than Nai-Stohl. BrokenMnemonic 02:10, 22 March 2012 (PDT)

Hehe, you know I actually doubted my own records when you asked me about which maps the systems appeared in prior. What apparently looks like Moore in the RWR map is actually Nai-Stohl. If you compare the location of Moore, Kessel and Nai-Stohl in HB:HS 2822 against the 2750 map of RWR you will see that Moore is further to the right, and only it's name appears on the map, but the Circle there is Nai-Stohl. I also verified against coordinates and that questionable little circle there matches the 2765 and HB:HS 2822 locations for Nai-Stohl.-Volt 02:18, 22 March 2012 (PDT)

Ouch, no wonder I didn't spot it when I was working from my paper maps originally. I'm surprised Øystein didn't tidy the map up a little to put the name on the map, given that the entire world is visible... but now it makes me wonder how many other worlds are flitting around the edges of maps like that. BrokenMnemonic 02:39, 22 March 2012 (PDT)

Yup, but I think I was able to record most of them correctly. Fair warning though, there are some systems not appearing on the edges of the page of maps but exist in the preceding and succeeding maps chronologically. I can't remember exactly which ones at this time, but I think it's related to the founding maps and some of the periphery maps. It's unfortunate that those maps can't be like the RWR map where all systems are shown in the page.-Volt 05:33, 22 March 2012 (PDT)

So, the Sendai we have here should actually be Vaajakoski, and the Sendai entry needs to be changed to reflect the real Sendai near Otho and Aix-la-Chapelle? BrokenMnemonic 02:54, 22 March 2012 (PDT)

Yup, I completely missed that error, assuming the Sendai I saw in HB:HS was the same one in H:RW. It was convenient since the two systems have not appeared on the same map until in 2765.-Volt 05:33, 22 March 2012 (PDT)

Wrong Maps on Planet pages

I stard the discussion on the Addhara planet page, and moved the conten to the project planet talk page, it's the better place.

The map on Addhara is complety wrong.--Doneve 10:26, 21 March 2012 (PDT)

I'm not surprised. This is part of the problems we realized had to be fixed if we were to display maps on planetary/system articles. Nic's utility used data from the ISCS project that was very flawed.

Maybe you'll want to open a discussion on the Planets project about removing these images altogether, instead of waiting for them to be replaced.--Revanche ^{(talk|contribs)} 08:27, 21 March 2012 (PDT)

The best way is we remove the wrong planet images, we can create a gallery and move then the image at first to the gallery. When new maps created by cannon sources, then we delete the wrong maps completly from sarna, any thoughts.--Doneve 10:26, 21 March 2012 (PDT)

Political Maps, Not Jump Maps

There was a very interesting quote from Øystein regarding the maps in the sourcebooks today over on the CGL forum:

“	Simple, the maps we show are not jump maps, they are political maps. With regards, Øystein	”
	— Renaming planets thread

I think that's the first time I've ever seen that explicitly stated, rather than simply implied. BrokenMnemonic 23:44, 25 March 2012 (PDT)

Very interesting, i think this a clear statement for Political Maps and not Jump Maps.--Doneve 01:54, 26 March 2012 (PDT)

I think you're right. It has implications for the mapping work Volt and Bad Syntax are doing, because some systems are simply going to have to be noted as being exceptions by nature of their display on political maps (I'm thinking of the Niops system here as the biggie). This backs up my belief that we should keep the owner history detail we've got, but classified as political affiliation, and that we've been using the independent world category properly. BrokenMnemonic 02:24, 26 March 2012 (PDT)

Yup, full agree.--Doneve 03:22, 26 March 2012 (PDT)

My job just got more complicated. Does this mean that we can't use the coordinate data as JUMP paths? Oh and related to the political map thing, I just realized the coordinates for the three MICA and NIOPS systems are wrong because the maps do not show their actual distances. I doubt Mica II is actually 4LY away from Mica VII, which is farther than the distance between Terra and Rigil Kentarus. Ditto for Niops systems. Do I just get the midpoint of the three systems and use that as their unified Jump distances? Now for a semi-related question. Are Silkeborg and Havdhem two planets in the same system or two systems that are <2LY apart?-Volt 16:56, 26 March 2012 (PDT)

Semantic Results Coordinates

I was thinking of other ways this addition to the site could be useful and something I thought of was to make all the coordinates listed for the planets viewable from not only one centralized page, but also available as a spreadsheet download. For those of you who are unfamiliar with Semantic Result Formats, basically it is a way to compile data from many pages into one place like a single page or a downloadable spreadsheet. For example, I made a list of the first 10 planets:

Planet Locations	X Coordinate	Y Coordinate
"Boxer" Lee
"Shades" McCabe
"Snake" Hickman
"Sunshine" Talbot
Aalzorg
Aaron Hall
Aaron Harper
Abagnar
Abasi Oteke
Abbadiyah
... further results

You can then sort this list in order of either the X or Y coordinates and add who owned it at a specified year to the table.
This same list is available for download as a spreadsheet here: CSV
If you guys have any interest in using this, let me know and I'll explain how to get it to work on the rest of the planets.--Seth 19:45, 26 March 2012 (PDT)