Requiem
06/14/18 09:52 PM
58.175.193.140
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I originally had this in my Alt History / Thoughts on the Clan Invasion in the general section but I thought I could also post it here for an expert opinion ...
When talking ship killers for the IS we know the following … to kill a warship requires the use of capital missiles … yes
…. And we also know that the anti-ship capital scale weapon systems can only fit on a Dropship sized Platform or pocket warship ie. the Barracuda Missile
Baracuda - Damage 2 Capital 20 Standard – Mass 100 tons – Range S 1-20 M 21-30 L 31-40 E 41-50
…. We also know that Samarkand, Tharkad, Commonweath, Essex Class Warships were all armed with nuclear-tipped anti-ship missiles.
The Alamo for example is a 5 Kiloton nuclear missile which can be carried by aerospace fighters and used in space or in an atmosphere to attack air and ground targets
A fifty ton aerospace fighter can carry 1 and a one hundred ton aerospace fighter can carry 2
Is there is a serious need for an aerospace fighter capable Capital Missile …. That is also not nuclear tipped
How about this then …. (Not the FC arrow IV capital missile or the Blakists Parana etc.)
A new Parana anti-ship capital missile – each missile weighs ? tons and may only be mounted on an aerospace unit; each missile takes up 5 bomb slots. They may be used only Space maps and cannot cross the Atmospheric/Space divide. This Parana Missile may be fired only at Dropships, Jumpships and Warships.
Paranah – Damage 1 Capital 5 Standard – Mass ? tons – Range S 1-5 M 6-10 L 11-15 E 16-20
This then rebalances the fighters with that of a Warship somewhat
I guess what I was looking for is WWII pacific - fighters bussing the ships scenario ....
Your thoughts? Reduce the Range? Damage? Mass ?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Retry
06/15/18 01:47 PM
174.70.184.145
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100 tons on the Barracuda is for the launcher. The missile itself weighs 30 tons.
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ghostrider
06/15/18 02:47 PM
66.74.61.223
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So you can probably fire it like a missile from the b1/b2 bay.
On a fighter it would be on the outside of the ship, so that argument would be mute.
I would suggest a dedicated ship for firing the missiles, as the targeting and tracking might be the issue for allowing this with normal fighters. We know the writers would suggest you couldn't do this.
On a bomber, I would suggest ams in the front, and single laser in the rear. It has one job. Get the load to the target. Engaging others is not something you would want.
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ghostrider
06/15/18 02:54 PM
66.74.61.223
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I thought I posted this thought already, but can't find it.
Can you make a version of the missiles that have a shorter range?
Much like the lrm/mrm/srm set up. More payload for a shorter range.
Or lighten it up some, as it does not need as much fuel.
I would think alot of the launchers are that heavy because they need to withstand the exhaust of the missiles as well as maybe a catapult to help get it out of the tube. And being warship, they doubled or triple what it should be at.
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Cray
06/15/18 09:15 PM
67.8.230.40
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There are a number of new hard point-mounted heavy missiles in Tactical Operations that might fit the role you're after. Most notable is the "anti-ship missile" (p. 358) which does 30 standard points/3 capital points of damage on a hit (like a White Shark), gets a critical hit roll like a Barracuda missile, and uses 6 bomb slots.
The related Anti-ship electronic warfare missile (also 6 bomb slots) causes a ship to have a +4 to-hit from the hit location it strikes.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
06/15/18 09:31 PM
72.176.187.91
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So are these HAWK style or ASBM with some fire and forget?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
06/16/18 05:03 AM
58.175.193.140
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As per the Sarna.net Wiki entitled Anti-Ship Missile, “The Anti-Ship Missile (AS) was an Arrow IV variant developed by the Federated Suns. Development of this missile began in 3069”.
As I have previously stated when the Clans invaded there were a number of new weapons they were utilizing that required an immediate IS response to neutralize them … ie.
The Elemental – Solution a high powered sniper’s rifle with armour piercing rounds – Thus, putting them down at a long distance and inflicting heavy damage to the operator
Engineers could have produced a working variant of this within one / two years of the invasions start.
The other problem however is the Warship – this requires a Capital Anti-Ship Missile – The Baracudda came out in 3051 – however this must be placed on a dropship (Big target and easy for a warship to kill)
Any normal military would recognize this problem and search for a solution that could be implemented ASAP.
1st Bomb the ship – however the rules for this make it quite difficult – how about strapping LRM engines onto the bombs then add a claymore type plate to ensure all of the explosive goes into the warship as a way of dealing with them, though as a prototype idea this would have many drawbacks – thus the need for a dedicated anti-ship missile early in the clan invasion.
So how can a Regimental Aerospace Combat Team (120-180 fighters) deal with a Warship?
Think about the Battle of Britain when Air Vice-Marshal Trafford Leigh-Mallory and Acting Squadron Leader Douglas Bader proposed the tactic of the Big Wing also known as a Balbo –
So if there are RCTs why cant there also e RACTs that could be established as an alternative means of defence / attack.
Rather than using Mechs to raid an ammo dump - Jump in at a pirate point - slip like a knife into the atmosphere then at altitude (above Anti Aerospace gun fire) open your bomb bay doors - let loose your gravity bombs - BOOOMB! -- close bomb bay doors - engage secondary internal fuel tanks - return to space and your Jumpship - then go home? This would make more sense than sending in the ground sloggers to do this type of job ....
ie. There needs to be a Black Widow (Bomber) aerospace fighter and a Dive bomber Light aerospace fighter bomber variant for small Targets - Command Vehicles? - where altitude will determine Short - Extreme difficulty ...
I will now get off the soap box ..... some one else needs the wood ....
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
06/18/18 04:02 AM
58.175.193.140
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I find this very interesting that the Sarna.net wiki includes the following two pages ...
First, Essay: SLDF Naval Doctrine
Nuke Proofing SLDF Style
The ships of the SLDF are often maligned as the worst ships ever made, their primary advantage being size. This may be so. I certainly think their roles were never thought out. Having said that an analysis of these ships design and possible use in a nuclear environment offer some disturbing insights which may cause us to rethink their use and utility.
Environment
Let’s start with a basic understanding of nuclear naval combat. Space borne nukes can be delivered in three ways.
Carried in a ship
Anti Ship Alamo via aerospace fighter
Anti Ship Santa Anna via capital missile
Second, Anti-Ship Missile
The Anti-Ship Missile (AS) was an Arrow IV variant developed by the Federated Suns. Development of this missile began in 3069, spurred on by the Blakist blockade of New Avalon, with limited production started in 3071. Though based on the Arrow system, the ASM incorporates Tandem-Charge Warhead technology and is fitted with powerful booster engines to give it greater velocity. Armor penetration is achieved as much through kinetic energy as the dual warhead, and while devastating against large vessels the increased speeds and limited guidance system means the weapon has a harder time hitting fast, agile targets.
Game Rules
ASM Missiles weighs 2 tons and may only be mounted on aerospace units; each missile takes up 6 bomb slots. They may be only be fired at Altitude Level 3 or higher on the Low Altitude map, as well as the Space map. The weapon suffers to-hit modifiers when fired at aerospace targets less than 500 tons or ground targets 100 tons or less.
So what are the Capital Missiles between that of the SLDF and 3069 – or must we consider these to be a further example of lost technology that not even ComStar retained?
What about the use of Capital Missiles upon Dropships?
Were Capital Missiles included on the Helm memory Core?
So game designers where are my missiles at 3025 and 3050? 3025 – Anti-Dropship; 3050- now Anti-Warship
Why, if we did have the Alamo missile even at 3025, why was there not a conventional warhead initially used as an anti-dropship then with the appearance of the Clans an anti-warship?
Also where are my aerospace bombers - that can launch mass capital missiles against drop-ships / warships?
Can anyone please explain for I am at a loss?
Was it just not included in the initial release – however overtime we look back and say ooops – could we not just add them back now, please? especially in the early days / years of the Clan Invasion - or are we to assume that yes we did have Alamo missiles yet we did not use them ...... this to me defies all naval ... and common sense ... they are the most dangerous threat ... we are in war and loosing and yet we will do nothing to protect ourselves as the repercussions are too great to consider ...... explain?
Show me any military that when they find themselves with a gun against their head will not resort to the old quote "needs must as the devil drives" ...... that of the Alamo
Or do we just consider this to be another missing plot hole form the initial writing as to the Clan Invasion ... thus another reason as to why there needs to be a second writing .... to make the story accurate ....
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/18/18 12:09 PM
66.74.61.223
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From alot of what I have seen, alot of the newer tech seems to be an oops.
They throw in things after the fact, but as much as I hate to admit it, in the earlier days, they didn't expect it to take off like it did. Also think the lawsuit probably took their attention as well.
When I first got city tech, I thought those units were supposed to be new ones. Not existing ones they added in. Nothing said about them in the first.
The helm core had the three standard capital ship missiles in it, otherwise all of the IS would not have them, and to the same specs.
Where are your aero bombers?
How about were are the drones that can carry and fire these missiles, being built just for that purpose, avoiding the large amount of bomb slots?
Oh wait. They were used by WOB do defend earth from invasion, then built in other systems. They didn't have the numbers like the rest of the IS, so they had to come up with something to prevent a fast loss for them. But that is more in the future.
One way I can see them get around it is, the missiles were built in a base that was destroyed, and no one was able to crack the computer still left. That would allow them to say it was found after the invasion.
Other then that, it is added in after the fact, or forgotten for the time.
I do question the 2 ton missile harming warships. 20 tons is a little better.
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Requiem
06/18/18 07:02 PM
58.175.193.140
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So we should just consider it a plot-hole and oops ..... great .......
How many then believe that the Anti-Ship Missile should be just re-written to that as the same time (approx.) frame as the Arrow IV for Mechs? and then just go from there ....
This to me makes total sense ....
They can keep their 'supposed history' but for my game play / clan invasion onwards it is ... game on, suckers!
Regimental Aerospace Combat Teams (Big wings) with Anti-Ship Missles Vs. Clan Warships right form the start of the Invasion ...
Then post Turtle Bay the Kurita Response could be a RACT of their own with their own Anti Warship Missiles (Non Nuke) ... Vs. Smoke Jags Warship that perpetrated the crime ...
Smoke Jags & Nova Cats above Lutherin - mass aerospace duel before it even gets to the planet ......
Hahahahahahahahah (evil laugh / chuckle)
who is up for this change then?
I'm in .......
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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