Venom
06/22/06 10:57 PM
63.241.182.3
|
Level 1
Tonnage: 100
Movement:
Walk: 2
Run: 3
Jump: -
Armor: Standard
Armament:
4 PPC
4 Medium Laser
Communications: Garret T19-G
Targeting and Tracking: Wasat Aggressor Type 5
In use by:Wolf's Dragoons
Equipment
Component Tons
Internal Structure Standard 10
Engine 200 8.5
Heat Sinks 42 32
Gyro 2
Cockpit 3
Armor Factor 200 12.5
Armor
Section I.S. Armor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 31 25
Center Torso (R) 10
R/L Torso 21 21
R/L Torso (R) 9
R/L Arm 17 24
R/L Leg 21 24
Weapons & Equipment
Section Loc. Crit. Tons
PPC RA 7 12
PPC LA 7 12
PPC RT 7 12
PPC LT 7 12
Medium Laser RA 1 1
Medium Laser LA 1 1
2 Medium Laser CT 2 2
Just one of my favorite upgrades that I do. Increases range, greater survivability(no ammo explosions), no reliability on supply lines,plus it can fire its PPCs and run(you have to run to get anywhere). To me it just kind of made sense that a merc command would want to rely less on amma due to cost and its explosive nature. Pretty much all my level one 'mechs replace their AC/10s with PPCS, this is just taking it to a sick extreme. 
|
Karagin
06/23/06 12:08 AM
24.243.176.24
|
Okay so you can alpha strike...where is the fun in this? Where is the challenge or learning ability?
This is a munchkin mech, I am sorry to say. One more at home in the computer MW games then the BT board games.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Venom
06/23/06 12:39 AM
63.241.182.3
|
Munchkin? You have got to be kidding right? This is not a 4xGauss+TC combo with max armor. It is not a super fast 20 ton med laser boat. It is an upgrade of a design. It improves in some ways, but not others. But it is not the have-all end-all of 'Mechs. A munch has few, if any disadvantages. This thing has plenty.
To start with, it has the armor of a medium 'mech. It is slower than molasses in July. That is just the things they have in common.
Now the upgrade gains an advantage of 3 in range. It also gains a minimum range of 3 on its main weapons. That sounds like it is pretty balanced.
This design actualy runs hotter than the origional, which could fire the ACs, a medium laser and either move or fire a second laser and maintain a reading of zero heat. Mine can mearly fire its primary weapons and move to maintain zero heat.Another balance against the origional design.
The challenge, just as with the origional is heat management and armor management. The learning is how can I best use my limited mobility to get where I want to go and stay alive doing it. It also trains pilots in fire support where the main job is to provide long-distance fire while not geting hurt. It actualy pairs well with a Banshee or Charger that can speed to the front, and tie units up there with physical attacks, giving the Annihilator some stand-off room to work. So, I guess it also teaches teamwork.
It is very at home on the board game, but especial in a merc unit that cannot afford ammo, or in situations where ammo can become scarce.
Munch? Hardly.
Edited by Venom (06/23/06 01:31 AM)
|
Cray
06/23/06 10:23 AM
147.160.136.10
|
Quote:
Okay so you can alpha strike...where is the fun in this? Where is the challenge or learning ability?
Wow, harsh.
I'd design mechs for their roles rather than to stick to out-of-character concerns like munchkinism (unless all else is equal). An upgrade to the ammo-dependent Annihilator is, IMO, a worthy goal for any unit. This version would make a nice pal for canon alpha strikers like the Awesome.
And since this machine is L1, the fact that Venom made a quad-PPC alpha striker isn't munchkinism, it's a respectable achievement. It takes some doing with L1 tech and an existing platform to get 4 PPCs on a unit, and actually be able to use them.
Now, if this was a DHS Clan mech with quad pulse large lasers and a targeting computer, I'd call it munchkin and boring. But it's not. This is, IMO, a nice old school piece of work.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
Karagin
06/23/06 10:28 AM
24.243.176.24
|
Old school = heat issues. This has everything going for it. No ammo, near max armor, and range. All that it is missing is Natasha piloting it...it's munchy.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Karagin
06/23/06 10:30 AM
24.243.176.24
|
You can fire all four PPCs without any heat build up, you ave the range of those weapons to keep doing this and you have the armor to stick around...yes it's munchy when compared to the canon mechs and most home made 3025 tech mechs.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Venom
06/23/06 07:16 PM
63.241.182.3
|
"Old school = heat issues"
Not buying it. Take a look at its contemporaries. Like the Atlas. Max heat close in, front arc totals 19, if you run. It has 20 hs. The only way to over heat it is if you are foolish enough to launch the LRM-20 inside minimum range. Check out the Banshee. 2 more h.s. than it needs. Charger, well taht realy does not count. Victor, max heat 18, h.s. 15. The Marauder II can fire its mains and walk and still read zero. This 'mech has more heat issues than before. Does that make it MORE old school? No, try again.
"No ammo, near max armor, and range."
Near max armor for what weight class? The 60-ton Dragon has the same amount of armor.
"it's munchy."
If that is true, the rest of the 'mechs that I listed are the munch masters of the universe.
|
Cray
06/23/06 08:38 PM
70.118.43.50
|
Quote:
Old school = heat issues.
Not all of them. This mech is just a 4/3 scale-up of the Awesome...but with less armor than an 80-ton L1 mech.
And it ain't munchy until it's L2. No L1 mech is going to be munchy in my book.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
Karagin
06/24/06 02:26 AM
24.243.176.24
|
Okay guys you win, if you like mechs that have nothing going against them then use them.
I will stick with the flawed mechs that have chacater and depth.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Venom
06/24/06 03:28 PM
63.241.182.3
|
"yes it's munchy when compared to the canon mechs "
Again, how? The origional could fire its main weapons with no heat build up. It had good range for a Lvl 1. Neither has the armor to stick around. I have beaten the thing(piloted by a friend) with a bone-stock Jenner. I moved as fast as I could, he got a +4 in addition to a +2 for his move. He moved as fast as he could and I got a +1 and a +2 for my move.
|
Cray
06/24/06 11:22 PM
68.204.247.59
|
Quote:
if you like mechs that have nothing going against them then use them.
It's a bizarre set of standards that considers a 2/3 mech with 12.5 tons of armor and 4 PPCs to have nothing going against it. Personally, I'd call it "bullet magnet" and/or "target practice."
Quote:
I will stick with the flawed mechs that have chacater and depth.
Well, there are mechwarriors who would go into battle in imperfect mechs for good roleplaying reasons. In 3025, mechs were old and any mech was better than none. Some mechwarriors like light mechs and don't want the burden of a sluggish assault mech. Some mechwarriors get a mech assigned to them and can't dispute the matter.
But when you start picking bad mechs for out-of-character reasons like "they have character and depth" to the extent that you ignore in-character decision making processes (like, "I don't want my mech crippled by heat build up in battle again,") then you're drifting into bad roleplaying habits, like metagaming.
I mean, really, would you give want your unit to be covered by a weapon with "depth and character" like the Chauchat?
Plus, you know that hard-wired flaws in a vehicle (like inadequate heat dissipation) or player characters (merits/flaws) are just crutches to good roleplaying, right? They're a nice aid to get you started, but singling out 'mechs and/or characters that are imperfect due to stats is only a start.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (06/25/06 12:41 AM)
|
Karagin
06/25/06 02:00 AM
24.243.176.24
|
The original had ammo weapons, it also wasn't going to be used in the sense that it could wade in and slugged it out forever hence the need to keep some distance and use it to batter an enemy.
The range isn't the over all factor here, it's the fact that with NOTHING to penalize it for having weapons that do the same the damage as the AC10s but without the ammo you change the scope and useage of the mech, thus what was a challenge to use correctly now becomes something that any "power" gamer can use to win no matter what since they don't have to worry about running out of ammo and no heat is built up so they can stand on a hill or move around and pound away. Sorry Cray but it's munchy in my opinion.
You may like this variant, but I don't.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Karagin
06/25/06 02:02 AM
24.243.176.24
|
Maybe they are, but yours' falls into that same catogory also. Level 1 mechs have short comings, be it ammo dependance weapons where engery ones would be better, just what you did with your variant here, or not enough heat sinks or too slow etc...all forcing you the player to learn tactics and teamwork to survive.
Munchy mechs take the teamwork and tactics out and turn the game into a paper version of the computer BT games.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Venom
06/25/06 02:54 AM
63.241.182.3
|
Quote:
Munchy mechs take the teamwork and tactics out and turn the game into a paper version of the computer BT games.
I have already explained the tactics and teamwork. Without lance mates, this thing gets eaten for dinner by fast smart pilots. This is further compounded by the PPCs minimum range. Get insde there and you have up to a +3 to hit. That is pretty significant. That answers your complaint that giving it PPCs over ACs gives it no disadvantages. The thing is so slow that often times, even if it wins initiative, it can not capitalize on that. Yes the PPCs let it blast away all day, but the lack of armr limits its effectiveness and battlefeild lifespan.
Answer me this:How is 12.5 tons of armor NOT a disadvantage? How is 2/3/0 movement NOT a disadvantage? How is a minimum range of 3 NOT a disadvantage?
|
Karagin
06/25/06 03:02 AM
24.243.176.24
|
Slow or not, the power gamer will put an elite pilot in this thing and the fast mover isn't going to be doing much of anything when it's movement bonuses are eaten by the bonuses of the elite pilot...seen that happen way to often in mechs similar to the one you have made here.
12.5 tons of armor isn't a disadvantage give then you can do 40 points of damage max to any and all targets and average 30 points a turn until a target get's into the minimum but then agian how often is a mech going to get with in or under three hexes of this machine and be able to do much about it after taking 20 points plus of damage each turn prior to that?
Sorry but you have made a munchy mech that turns the game into something that shouldn't be. I know a great place for a mech like this, Solaris 7...that's where this would be at home...
Go and look at some of the mechs and other units I have posted. They aren't built to be the best nor the worst out there, they are built to fit the game or at the very least work with what's out there. They also may give you some ideas on things and also give you an idea of where I am coming from and Cray might want to look over some of the older mechs as well...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Venom
06/25/06 03:57 AM
63.241.182.3
|
My 'mech was not built to be the best out there. Simply a better mouse trap. Would the Dragoon's want a fire support 'mech that does not rely on ammo? Of course. Would they take every advantage they can? Yes, that is the face of war. That in and of itself helps it fit into the game. Either the canon 'mechs that are more powerful with fewer disadvantages thus are "munchy" or they fit in the game, you can't have it both ways:
[Quote]Maybe they are, but yours' falls into that same catogory also.[Quote/]
[Quote]Sorry but you have made a munchy mech that turns the game into something that shouldn't be.[Quote/]
So FASA turned the game into something that it shouldn't be? So it wasn't the blatant copying of art work that caused their downfall!
A smart pilot with a fast 'mech will use terrain and cover to their advantage to get in close. It may be "munchy" but it can't hit what it can't see. Using pilots of the same level and forces on equal footing(congruent BV), turn this thing into a white elephant by itself. It realy can't survive long without its lance mates. Using an elite pilot by himself kills the BV, and thus is not a good practice.
I am always open to suggestions for improvement to any of my designs. But arbitraraly lumping it into the same catagory as the rest of the munchmechs is not constructive.
|
Karagin
06/25/06 01:18 PM
24.243.176.24
|
Then work harder to make mechs that don't come close to crossing the line into munchkin land.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
coldwave
06/27/06 02:08 AM
216.67.41.217
|
Hmmm.....To comment on this mech or not...Ah, what the heck, I'm a glutton for punishment! 
Over-all, I thought it was a pretty decent upgrade. It takes away the biggest problem with the original, AMMO, and makes it into a fairly low-heat, high-damage, long-range beast. The ability to run and fire all four PPC's without any heat build-up does bug me as munchie, but the thin armor and slow speed does balance it out a fair bit. A couple of solid hits by some LRM's or SRM's on that armor could easily punch through and start causing some criticals. Take out a few heatsinks and all of a sudden it's usability drops substantially.
I put the specs into HMP real quick and came out with a BV of 1,343. I noticed that both the hand and lower-arm actuators have to be dropped in order for everything to fit, so that further reduces its close range ability. One other item that hasn't been addressed yet is the COST! 7,724,666 C-Bills for this thing! To be honest, I'd rather take two medium mechs (A Clibanus and a Sledgehammer would do nicely) for the same price. Of course, if there were a situation where I specifically needed an assault mech, then she would do very nicely, but as far as I'm concerned, she's definitely not the end-all, be-all of all mechs.
Arguably, it'd be questionable whether or not this conversion could even take place. This is a taking a relatively low-energy, ammo based mech, and swapping out its parts for some of the highest energy burning around. After all, the original was built around four autocannons, and it's pretty hard to do such a complete and utter revamp, especially on a scale such as this. The power-couplings, electrical cabling, weapon controls, etc, in this mech are all designed for a low-power system. Even the physical structure itself was designed for autocannons so it would certainly have to be modified as well. Alas, that's for the fluff to explain (Oh yes, we always need the fluf!). I figure a few thousand extra C-Bills on-top of the price should help round-out those conversion costs and the innate difficulty of the project.
Over all, I'd say you did a great job taking a mech that I found useless 90% of the time and rebuilt into something that is FAR better. Good job.
- coldwave
|
Sith_Lord
06/28/06 12:00 AM
65.189.201.45
|
I would Drop the Med Lasers in favor for more speed
|
Cray
06/28/06 08:48 AM
147.160.136.10
|
Quote:
I would Drop the Med Lasers in favor for more speed
If you're sticking to level-1 equipment, dropping the medium lasers won't give you more speed. You'd need 10.5 more tons to get to 3/5 movement (a 300-rated engine is 19 tons).
If you're opening the floor to level-2 equipment, then you only need to drop 1 medium laser to get to 3/5 speed (a 300XL engine is 9.5 tons).
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
Venom
06/28/06 03:32 PM
63.241.182.3
|
Actualy if you went with a 300 XL you would have to drop 2 lasers because of the gyro.
|
Cray
06/28/06 05:09 PM
147.160.136.10
|
Quote:
Actualy if you went with a 300 XL you would have to drop 2 lasers because of the gyro.
Oh, duh, I knowed that, I did, I did. 
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
Karagin
07/05/06 04:33 PM
214.13.130.100
|
Crutches? Right flavor and character are crutches, so that makes nukes and uber armies all okay then...talk about crutches.
Flaws in the mechs, teach other things Cray like oh...tactics and thinking beyond walk up to the other mech and blast it to pieces. Guess those are things that don't matter if you want munchy mechs to play with.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|