Cheapbuzz
04/27/02 09:50 PM
131.36.116.42
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Sounds good to me.
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NathanKell
04/28/02 12:25 AM
24.44.238.62
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In terms of AC measurements we just had a truly *gigantic* thread on them in the General Discussions board. Quick answer? Whatever you like (since the AC's rating is based on total damage, not shell size).
The A-10's cannon is a multi-(twelve?) barreled 30mm cannon, and has no real equivalent since we don't really know how much firepower 1 (BT) point of damage really means. However it's likely not that big--ISTR that the Scorpion light tank in TRO 3026 had fluffwise a "25mm Gatling cannon" as its machinegun.
Since BT doesn't really model large seeking missiles (except the Arrow IV, but even that's only laser-guided, not Fire-and-Forget) there's no real equivalent to the AGM-65.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Cray
04/28/02 08:25 AM
12.91.126.72
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You have the size ranges down approximately. The AC/20 ranges from 120 to 203mm; I've seen 150, 185, and 203mm AC/20s. I've seen 25mm UAC/2s.
I tend to think of the MGs as being larger caliber, at least 12.7mm, to have some anti-armor utility.
The A-10s weapon might be an AC/2 or 5.
The Maverick would be best approximated as a Thunderbolt missile.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Moloch
04/28/02 05:36 PM
67.224.53.35
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The next question is, whats the size of Gauss rifles in mm? Alot of the BT books will describe it "as a melon (or grape fruit) shaped, slighly oblongated** round and weighing 125 kg
that travels at 2.2 times (I think) the speed of sound."
**bore is rifled to proved greater accuracy and stability in flight
Popular Bumper Stickers
“Keep honking: I’m re-loading”
“If you don’t mind, please eject now: that Mech is a **** to salvage"
“I ran out of room to stencil all the Mechs I’ve killed, so now I just go by regiment’s wiped out.”
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NathanKell
04/28/02 09:43 PM
24.44.238.62
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Well, I certainly agree the Mechbuster's close in concept...but, since the only thing we have to go on is that 1: BT is in the far future, with advanced technology (though not *too* advanced) and 2: that there's evidence that a weapon that does 2 damage is a 25mm gatling cannon, then I think it's safe to say that the A-10's GAU-12 (IIRC it's 12, 30 is the caliber in mm) is certainly no *more* than a UAC-2. Probably a lot less since it uses 20th-century chemistry.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Acolyte
04/29/02 09:13 AM
142.179.27.248
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It relies on the inertia of the round. The weight has everything to do with the damage done. The mm crossection would be important for RL penetration, but in BT's magic armor makes that point moot. 
Light a fire for a man, and you keep him warm for one night,
Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Acolyte
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Cray
04/29/02 10:32 AM
204.245.128.3
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No. Size, shape, mass, and muzzle velocity are important to any non-explosive projectile, not just velocity.
Further, gauss rifles don't fire particularly fast projectiles, so it's hard to imagine them "relying on the speed of the bullet." It's all in that incredible 125kg mass. The gauss rifle spits semi-modern cannon balls.
As for diameter, well...
Figuring nickel-iron alloy (bleh) with a density of 8g/cc (8kg/L), the 125kg gauss rifle projectile will be 15.625 liters i.e. 15,625 cubic centimeters.
Using the "melon" description from BT fluff and starting with a spherical approximation (because I know the volume equation of spheres, but not ellipsoids), a solid, spherical gauss rifle slug of 125kg and 8g/cc density will have a radius of 15.5 centimeters.
The muzzle diameter would then be 31cm, or 310mm.
The slug is almost certainly narrower than that to fit the "melon" description, so 31cm is an upper bound. I doubt it will be less than half that, though, unless it was an extremely elongated "melon" shape.
So, the bounds for a gauss rifle projectile's diameter are 155 to 310mm.
It would be considerably more intelligent to make the projectile out of a much denser material (tungsten glass or uranium) and form it into a high velocity long rod penetrator 15-20x as long as it is wide, but "nickel iron melon" seems to be the projectile FASA fluff describes.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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novakitty
04/29/02 11:40 AM
192.195.234.26
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Why would an arrow (for lack of a more perfect shape description) be the optimal weapon against an armored target?
It would pierce the armor, but cause very little damage unless it passes right through a critical component.
On that note: Gauss arrow: same size, range, and other properties of a standard Gauss rifle except damage is 1.
Special properties: damage of 1 is to each and every location in its path, this is disrupted by Blazer armor which diverts the path of the arrow when it detonates from the first contact with the Blazer armored target.
Above average chance of critical hits. (not sure what that should be)
meow
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Cray
04/29/02 12:26 PM
204.245.128.3
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>It would pierce the armor, but cause very little damage unless it passes right through a critical component.
An arrow is not a good analogy. It only shares a shape with a modern KE penetrator. It lacks a critical similarity: speed.
By the time a high velocity penetrator gets through armor, it's traveling with a cloud of shrapnel, molten and vaporized armor, and its own scattering fragments. The damage track is not a simple, narrow hole through the target, like an arrow makes.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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NathanKell
04/29/02 12:53 PM
24.44.238.62
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In other words--pinprick in front, crater in back.
Although you do have problems with "overpenetration"--especially for soft targets--the fact that you'll pretty much only use KPs on hard targets (and thus they create their own shrapnel) minimizes the problems.
Plus, it's good to have a general idea of the energy applied--and KE is based on the *square* of the velocity...
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Acolyte
04/29/02 01:02 PM
142.179.27.248
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Interesting point, here. We have the speed of the Guass Rifle (2.2 mach, IIRC) from fluff, and it's weight. This could finally give the armor a real value! 
Light a fire for a man, and you keep him warm for one night,
Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Acolyte
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NathanKell
04/29/02 01:48 PM
24.44.238.62
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Then we have the damage a mech takes from falling.
Then we have the length of a turn in space, and the GR's range in space, giving us a minimum speed for the same damage in space
Then we have the damage a 50-ton missile does in space, and a minimum figure for it's KE based on turn length and range.
And none of them match! 
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Bob_Richter
04/29/02 06:42 PM
134.121.157.14
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http://rt000pui.eresmas.net/Battletech/Jump-point.html
Look in the Halstead Station Library under the technology section.
There's some interesting data to ponder.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
04/29/02 06:45 PM
134.121.157.14
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GAU-8/A
I'd say it probably qualifies as a "Heavy Machine Gun" of sorts.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
04/29/02 06:48 PM
134.121.157.14
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The A-10's primary weapon is the seven-barreled GAU-8/A Gatling Cannon.
It would really come across as a kind of long-range high-damage machine gun.
An AC/20 is FOURTEEN TONS. The Avenger is somewhat smaller.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Diablo
04/29/02 06:48 PM
209.239.13.202
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AC' and MG's have no definite size. the poin value is based on damage. an AC/20 could be a 9mm gun but as long as it spits out enough shells to do 20 damage, it's OK. now a 9mm is a bit extreme. but you get the picture. also your MG measurments are off. why would they use a 7mm gun on 'mechs?
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Bob_Richter
04/29/02 06:57 PM
134.121.157.14
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>>>
It would be considerably more intelligent to make the projectile out of a much denser material
(tungsten glass or uranium) and form it into a high velocity long rod penetrator 15-20x as long as it is
wide, but "nickel iron melon" seems to be the projectile FASA fluff describes.<<<
Nonferrous and nonconductive metals are less efficient when used in a magnetic accelerator, aren't they?
Tungsten glass and uranium are not known for either property.
Forming weapons into penetrators doesn't seem like a great idea, either, considering BT armor is basically immune to penetration, and that is clearly not what BT's Gauss Rifles seek to achieve.
There are probably more aerodynamically stable shapes than "melon" tho...:)
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
04/29/02 06:58 PM
134.121.157.14
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Nothing to do with inertia. Everything to do with energy.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Acolyte
04/29/02 07:25 PM
142.179.27.248
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Inertia is energy.
Light a fire for a man, and you keep him warm for one night,
Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Acolyte
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Bob_Richter
04/29/02 07:32 PM
134.121.157.14
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Inertia is the tendency for an object to resist changes in its motion.
If I apply a force to an object, that force is divided by its inertia (mass), to give it an acceleration.
An object in motion has momentum (mass * velocity) and kinetic energy (mass * velocity * velocity)
Energy is what actually causes damage.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Acolyte
04/29/02 08:38 PM
142.179.27.248
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Right. It resists being stopped by the armor.
Light a fire for a man, and you keep him warm for one night,
Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Acolyte
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NathanKell
04/29/02 10:00 PM
24.44.238.62
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heck, isn't the A-10 somewhat smaller? 
And yeah, it's the -8, you're right. Thanks for the memory jog
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Bob_Richter
04/29/02 11:33 PM
134.121.247.162
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No, it doesn't. Nothing can, and that's not at all what's important by any means.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Acolyte
04/30/02 12:06 AM
142.179.27.248
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So, the speed and the mass of the object is not at all important?
Light a fire for a man, and you keep him warm for one night,
Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Acolyte
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Cray
04/30/02 07:29 AM
204.245.128.3
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>Nonferrous and nonconductive metals are less efficient when used in a magnetic accelerator, aren't they?
Tungsten glass and uranium are not known for either property.
Use conductive sabots. Sabots help fit a fin-stabilized projectile in the barrel anyway, and saboted gauss rifle shells exist in RL - I think I've got a link with pictures, if you're curious.
>Forming weapons into penetrators doesn't seem like a great idea, either, considering BT armor is basically immune to penetration, and that is clearly not what BT's Gauss Rifles seek to achieve.
Penetrator-shaped projectiles are ideal for mangling mech armor - note the Mechbuster and, IIRC, the Hetzer both use that ammo type. After all, penetration is only achieved by destroying the armor under the impact point. If they fail to penetrate, then you have a great whacking load of energy dumped into the armor. You could easily blow off a decent chunk of ablative mech armor.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Nightmare
04/30/02 11:25 AM
194.251.240.107
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>>>It would be considerably more intelligent to make the projectile out of a much denser material (tungsten glass or uranium) and form it into a high velocity long rod penetrator 15-20x as long as it is wide, but "nickel iron melon" seems to be the projectile FASA fluff describes.
This is, of course, in order to keep the targetting difficult.
A ball/melon has a harder time to stay stable, so it fits
right in with the rest of the BT weapons.
Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
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NathanKell
04/30/02 08:03 PM
24.44.238.62
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And, conversely, it's harder to miss with a bigger projectile.
{not because it flies straighter, but because there's more diameter, to counteract the attacker's twitchy hand.}
Assuming it doesn't tumble, of course.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Bob_Richter
04/30/02 08:30 PM
134.121.16.64
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A sphere that tumbles still has the same cross-section.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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NathanKell
05/01/02 12:38 AM
24.44.238.62
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But, because of the tumbling, is less accurate (after it leaves the barrel) than a Long Rod.
So, assuming you could get a sphere that doesn't tumble, it would be better for a BT gunner's accuracy than a LRP.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Bob_Richter
05/01/02 01:32 AM
134.121.16.64
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LRPs tumble too.
And they're WORSE about inaccuracies due to tumbling than spheres.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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