Requiem
08/20/19 07:18 AM
1.158.134.157
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First …. The Fortress
Throughout the hundreds of years each Great House have existed the borders between them have for the most part remained constant for a reasonable amount of time.
During this period of time I would like to ask why each great house did not establish a large fortification upon each of these border worlds – from which their military could ride forth against an invader or retreat to in the event of overwhelming force is arrayed against then. This would then provide the defenders with a defensible position whilst they await the arrival of reinforcements?
Thus if the fortress becomes common should there be a dedicated engineering battalions within each of the Great Houses Military whose only purpose is for the establishment / repair of the chain of fortresses that have been established over time along their respective border to ensure the safety of their realm and upon both sides of the border? (and upon important worlds that have been constantly raided over the years)
Over time each House could have also established their own idea as to what a fortress would look represent … something similar to a Fortress Brian or a complete deviation from this?
Second …. The BattleMech production facility
Why would a House Lord allow their military production facilities (be it BattleMech, Aerospace Fighter, or Vehicle) to remain upon worlds that could be acquired by their enemy – that is unless they are built into a mountain as is the Steiner facility of Hesperus II.
Why would they not transport them over time (during the age of the original Star League for example) into the interior of their realm – thus keeping them safe for their future military industrial complex. They then just need to maintain a mine and a metal foundry upon their former unsafe worlds, and then have the metal transported to their new world as required.
They could have even produced new production lines - thus increasing the production numbers and the maintenance of their existing production lines.
And if their old world is acquired by the enemy they have not lost the production facility they have only lost the mine and the metal foundry - and they could easily source their raw materials from another world thus the supply of raw materials is not interrupted and the production of their military equipment is also not interrupted by the loss of the world.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
08/20/19 09:19 AM
72.176.171.47
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Simple the story called for things to happen, just like we had a group go from nothing to major power in less then 10 years and they explained that away with money from HPG messages and stealing production from the FWL.
Trying to fully make sense of the illogical things that the writers and such have come up with over the years in Battletech, you will soon find that even they have forgotten really why they did thing. To which you will see that they have borrowed from the Soap Opera logic, that you can do anything and repeat doing it as long as the characters seem to be the believable point.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
08/20/19 03:10 PM
174.70.184.145
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Quote:
During this period of time I would like to ask why each great house did not establish a large fortification upon each of these border worlds – from which their military could ride forth against an invader or retreat to in the event of overwhelming force is arrayed against then. This would then provide the defenders with a defensible position whilst they await the arrival of reinforcements?
Every border world? The Capellans alone have >50 border worlds systems.
Are you fortifying the worlds only, or the jump points too?
If you don't fortify the jump points, you basically have a bunch of space islands. It's not necessary to engage the planets if they don't need to, the warships can just jump deeper into your systems while ignoring your border planet's fixed defenses. Optionally, the attacker could just smash the defenses too, since they spent their military resources on mobile Warships, Dropships, and Battlemechs and will undoubtedly have a bigger fleet that's far better able to concentrate their forces against the guys who decided to build a Maginot Line in Space.
There's so many worlds to defend, even just considering the border, that defensive reinforcements only really make sense for absolutely crucial and valuable worlds, like the House Capitals or Terra.
Quote:
Why would a House Lord allow their military production facilities (be it BattleMech, Aerospace Fighter, or Vehicle) to remain upon worlds that could be acquired by their enemy – that is unless they are built into a mountain as is the Steiner facility of Hesperus II.
That sounds a lot easier than it actually is. Both moving an entire production facility off-world (requiring jumpships and Dropships which may be very limited) or re-locating on the same world but underground are bound to be very expensive, time-consuming endeavors, during the transition you'd lose out on a ton of industrial capacity.
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Requiem
08/20/19 05:17 PM
1.158.134.157
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QUOTE: Every border world? The Capellans alone have >50 border worlds systems.
Maybe not every border world, I would assume those worlds each House would consider of importance at the minimum, and only very minimally along any of the periphery borders.
QUOTE: Are you fortifying the worlds only, or the jump points too?
Important worlds usually have recharge stations – Drop ship with a dedicated aerospace fighter protection detail (on rotation) is a consideration.
Or/- could an extension to the recharge station be built and attached so that it contains an aerospace unit (the size of which is as per the importance of the world below) and all ancillary support requirements?
QUOTE: warships can just jump deeper into your systems while ignoring your border planet's fixed defenses.
True, though depending on the era / importance of the world you could have an satellite station(s) with either naval weapons and or aerospace fighters again. They could also have movable mines that are very hard to detect where the fleet, whilst attempting to smash though, gets hammered. Though I will say this is a very remote possibility given the range of naval ordinance.
Also given some of the eras warships do not exist – at best merchantmen with naval weapons attached or even not at all?
At the minimum an early warning could be sent to the ground forces as to an incoming invading force.
QUOTE: defensive reinforcements only really make sense for absolutely crucial and valuable worlds, like the House Capitals or Terra
Also regional Capital worlds …..
Postulation – if you are able to hold out for one–two– or even three months, could each House have one / two / three ready reaction force Units deployed upon each border at any one time that are held as a strategic reserve unit and can be moved anywhere at any time with very short notice.
Thus posing a problem for the opposition as they do not know where they are at any given time.
Thus baring a major invasion of many worlds simultaneously the regional commander has not only the necessary forces to support all the other garrisons as required he/she also has the flexibility necessary to hold the border against limited invasions and raiding units.
QUOTE: That sounds a lot easier than it actually is. Both moving an entire production facility off-world (requiring jump ships and Drop ships which may be very limited) or re-locating on the same world but underground are bound to be very expensive, time-consuming endeavors, during the transition you'd lose out on a ton of industrial capacity.
I agree with this sentiment – however what is the alternative, leaving it on a world that could be taken by the enemy? No in my opinion even if it is off line for a year (or more) that time spent transporting it to another (safer) world is better than losing it to the enemy for who knows how many years (or permanently) until you are able to retake it back.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
08/20/19 05:50 PM
1.158.134.157
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Fortresses –
Considering the time line from the original Star League to even 3025 it could be argued that every world along the border has a fortress of one description or another – it is just some are of an older design (due to their strategic importance) and others may be newer (and smaller) due to their reduced importance status.
Also – originally these fortresses were able to survive a nuclear attack, First Succession War, thus those built during the original Star League era or before should also be considered impressive – upon very important worlds and regional capital worlds and the capital world at a minimum.
Or by 3025 the original fortress is now in complete ruin and has been replaced by a newer fortress.
Thus a new terrain map could be considered for you game – the fortress ruin map – with partial walls small forests growing in the middle – tunnels could still exist that start at one point on the map and end out at another and could also contain water - thus you have to wade through underwater to get to the other side.
It would also be a great place for a trap – the defender could have used the abandoned site as a training ground and as such they know all the hidden traps and tunnels and can pop up anywhere at any time.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Cray
08/20/19 08:14 PM
97.101.136.19
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Quote:
Why would they not transport them over time (during the age of the original Star League for example) into the interior of their realm
Specific to the Star League example, that is exactly the era when the Houses were most likely to disperse their industries. They were safe, their borders were stable, they had the entire Age of War to show that borders didn't change much, and it had been centuries since any really destructive war had ravaged industrial bases - maybe the Second Soviet Civil War, if not WW2. (Obviously, the travails of the Periphery during the Reunification War don't count. They were barbarians.)
During the Star League, the Houses would've been making choices based on economic, political, and diplomatic expediency. If a new BattleMech design got votes in Parliament by opening a component factory on Planet BFE, then the House would probably have happily put the component factory on the far end of its borders. If the House could get XL engines cheaply from the Hegemony and its subsidized factories rather than dropping a trillion house bills on developing XL technology itself, then we know it did - the Hegemony loved to concentrate the military industry in its borders.
The First and Second Succession Wars weren't necessarily the time to realize that moving factories would be wise, either, because of two reasons:
1. Many vital factories (military and civilian) were in the ex-Hegemony, and they were getting nuked by 5 different armies. It's a bit late to try to relocate radioactive craters.
2. The Houses were conducting deep raids on each others' key systems no matter how far they were from the border. Look at the FWL's Karachi (ATOW Companion) - deep on the Periphery edge of the FWL, and the Lyrans still raided and nuked its industrial centers. A single, concentrated factory was a nuke magnet until 2860 regardless of its location.
By the Third Succession War, it'd be viable to move factories since deep raids and nukes were out. But in the Third Succession War the Houses were locked in the lostech death spiral. They weren't going to touch or disrupt a working factory because they might not figure out how to getting working again on another planet.
Quote:
– thus keeping them safe for their future military industrial complex. They then just need to maintain a mine and a metal foundry upon their former unsafe worlds, and then have the metal transported to their new world as required.
As someone who works in the aerospace industry, please trust me when I say that supply chains are a wee bit more complicated than just shipping raw metals to a factory. At my factory we make very few parts from raw metal to finished component. We have to import endless amounts of specialty polymers, ceramics, optical materials, composites, and electronics from numerous suppliers around the US. We also get numerous completed components from specialty suppliers around the continent who have skills, capabilities, and tools that my facility lacks.
The good news is, that means my factory is not super-critical. If a WarShip passes overhead and bombards it into rubble, then it'll only take a year or two to put the dispersed supply chain back together.
(The problem in the Third Succession War was that WarShips had bombarded not just the 'Mech factories but also their suppliers, which is why - for example - fusion engines were so rare in the early 31st Century. Karachi, which I mentioned before, actually perked up pretty well after getting nuked. The problem was for many other planets in the FWL: Karachi's nuclear craters were the sites of former vital water filtration, fusion engine, and terraforming equipment factories. The Lyrans had been waging economic warfare at chasing down all the vital suppliers.)
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
08/21/19 12:56 AM
66.74.60.165
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Are you fortifying the worlds only, or the jump points too?
You want to try to fortify millions of square kilometers at each point, and that still won't stop an invasion. How much money to you have? I mean given a few hundred worlds on the border, and the enemy is more likely to strike at second line worlds to start you out, this idea is a bit pointless.
Plus a single huge fortress on a world is a very big target for shots from space. Without capital weapons, you are forced into high altitude carpet bombing, as well as just sending down what ever space junk you can find. Plus keeping you pinned to that base, means they get to do what they want with the rest of the world.
At the minimum an early warning could be sent to the ground forces as to an incoming invading force.
They do. Which is why stations are boarded as fast and quietly as they can. Keep them from sending word there is an attack force in the system. I want to say the novel Double Blind had them do this very thing.
Postulation – if you are able to hold out for one–two– or even three months, could each House have one / two / three ready reaction force Units deployed upon each border at any one time that are held as a strategic reserve unit and can be moved anywhere at any time with very short notice
They could. If the attackers don't raid other worlds, locking up forces there. Galtor campaign actually does that one.
Also. Do you understand what a deep raid is? The enemy jumps deep into your territory with the express idea to destroy as many of your war factories as they can. Even civilian ones get hit, as they can be converted over.
Did you even read the history of the succession wars?
Border facilities went up in nuclear blasts and massed warships with support. Losing the factories that could build them is one of the issues of not rebuild. And the statement of moving your factories... well how to you rebuild if you don't have the industrial base needed?
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ghostrider
08/21/19 01:14 AM
66.74.60.165
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Why would they not transport them over time (during the age of the original Star League)
So you do not want factories closer to help your border troops, as sending supplies along a route, possible the same length as the clans used would be the next step to this.
This is counter to building factories closer to the enemy.
It is interesting just how many factories that supply military builders with parts are not even close to the same place.
China is still producing a lot of parts that go into other nations military, even if it isn't in their big bad weapons. Simple things like components of radios, or even stupid things like Binoculars. Transistors and other electronic parts are another thing that people don't really know about. And it gets worse as the companies making the items cheap out for a better pay off.
It might be a good example to ask a simple question. If you own a dvd player, does that mean you could build one yourself? Even if you have all the parts?
And the enemy knows you are sending those people that do, to fix what they broke, and hit again as the repairmen are there. Simply destroy their ship and then wait for the next batch. rinse and repeat. That is how a lot of the tech was 'lost'. Most people can not read a blueprint or schematic and build the simple dvd player. And when all those that can teach you are dead, it is even more difficult to do anything.
And again. That is IF you have the parts.
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Requiem
08/21/19 06:17 AM
1.158.134.157
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Cray, thank you for an interesting read, however may I suggest there could have been a gap in time to allow for these military Industrial complexes to be moved from their current locations to somewhere within the internal reaches of their House.
May I suggest (In an Alt Universe could it be considered probable that … for example …. ) the period from when Amaris gained power to that of the start of the First Succession War as that period of time.
I would say those within the Hegemony would not be able to move as Amaris’ forces would ensure this was quite impossible.
However from the day they were liberated by Kerensky to that of the Fist Succession War this could be considered to be a debateable issue.
As you would assume most CEO’s are reasonably intelligent – or they could have intelligent people advising them – it would be quite realistic to assume that when the Amaris / Kerensky conflict has ended no matter who comes out on top on the balance of probability you could assume that one of the House Lords would have a go for the crown – and when this occurs all must go for the crown - thus an Inner Sphere Wide War is a real possibility.
Also given that weapons of mass destruction have been used during this conflict the probability that they will also be used in the future to determine the issue of succession is a real possibility.
That said would not this lead to a lobby group being sent to their House Lord to request assistance by the allocation of technical or Jump Ship support to financial support (a tax break for example) to allow for certain industries whose job is to bring together all these logistical channels to complete a finished product – also could not some of these logistics channels also be moved at this same time to protect important manufacturing businesses?
They could then be placed under the protection of the Navy until it has been determined their security has been secured.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/21/19 12:17 PM
66.74.60.165
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I would say those within the Hegemony would not be able to move as Amaris’ forces would ensure this was quite impossible.
Are you suggesting the house move Hegemony factories? At this point in time, it would be war. The houses didn't own any of those worlds or factories until after the League fell. Granted it was less then 5 years, but it still wasn't theirs.
May I suggest (In an Alt Universe
You can suggest alternatives all you want. But this is the start of saying canon is wrong and illogical, then start in on the alt being the only way it can be. Presentation, like said before is the key. No my alt is the only way it can be crap.
In the alt, my universe did this as a mean to make this more logical, is more like a comparison. My alt is correct because canon is wrong is pushing the rip on canon with an alt.
It is very reasonable that those living in say the Draconis March, would not want their factories they own, to be moved anywhere else. Especially commercial ones that would become military in the future. Even mech factories would be basically stealing and forcing those working there out of business, possibly destroying not only the planets economy, but a few worlds around it that support that factory. Even the CC and DC would not risk so much of that.
This may well create another issue of having the locals fighting the government. And those two are more like tolatarian governments.
And now a kicker.
Why would the owners want to leave their world? The military has forces stationed there, and I don't want to leave my powerbase or have my power usurped by having it moved elsewhere.
Also given that weapons of mass destruction have been used during this conflict the probability that they will also be used in the future to determine the issue of succession is a real possibility.
Ares conventions were thought to be in effect. They were wrong. But again. This is the future looking back. Not 'living' in that moment. It is very logical they thought nukes would not be used. Even orbital bombardments were banned before the League fell. Well inside the IS.
One last point for this post.
Wouldn't the factory owners believe their military could hold off an attacker? Otherwise, you should just evacuate the entire border worlds of all except military. And in the FS case, having them all on New Avalon would have been far worse. The DC almost took it from the FS.
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ghostrider
08/22/19 08:29 PM
66.74.60.165
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If you want history, like is always present in the threads... Lets review Australia during WWII.
I seriously doubt they moved all the industries they had to the south part of the continent to avoid the Japanese from taking them if they invaded that country.
But the question I got is why not?
Better yet, why not move them all to Brazil or Peru, where the Japanese was not a problem.
And that was during war. Not before, where it would follow the idea of this thread, as you might get hit by China, India, Myamar, or some other country there. And should all the factories in South Korea be moved as far from the northern border as possible?
Trying to come back with Germany building factories close to the middle is a different story. There wasn't any taking of factories in WWII as much as just reducing them to rubble.
Speaking of which, most of the Russian factories that fell were pretty much toast.
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Requiem
08/23/19 02:00 AM
1.158.134.157
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With the war between Amaris and Kerensky intensifying and the sense of an impending disaster should have completed many organisations to move as far as possible form what would become known as battlefields in the First Succession War–the assumption should be that the ability and the will to transport industries to a more secure location was there.
Then if you factor in the idea of hidden worlds doctrine – one could have rightly assumed that just prior to the First Succession War the Successesion House Lords of each Great House should have transported their more valuable facilities into hiding. Thus even with deep strikes their facilities would remain relatively safe.
Thus the only way this can be considered is through an At. Universe.
As for Fortresses – all throughout human history fortresses have been established to keep the stamp ones authority over the land, whilst simultaneously forming a strategic location from which to attack and defend from.
Then over the next hundreds of years more advanced fortification should and could have been established with this in mind.
What this means for the Alternate Gamer within their Alternate Universe.
By 3025 ….
- the core idea of a massive loss of technology has occurred can be disputed as many of the core military industrial sites are now a matter of security.
- the idea that Warships can no longer be manufactured are also a matter of debate.
- the amount and access to space parts or exotic technology should be easier to gain access to and at a lower price.
- because of the introduction of mass fortresses the proliferation of RCTs throughout the Great Houses from an earlier stand-pont– including armour, artillery, VTOLs and infantry - must be considered when attempting to crack a very hard egg in their attempt to gain control of these worlds.
Just for starters ….
So if this idea appeals it could be used as a basis for your alternate universe.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/23/19 03:53 AM
66.74.60.165
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The people near the Hegemony thought that Kerensky would win the fight, and restore order.
Since he did not seize power, that is where the succession wars started.
Thus even with deep strikes their facilities would remain relatively safe.
What was that response.... Their intel department was much better, as well as better and more updated maps. This isn't centuries after Comstar 'lost' worlds. The only hidden assets would have been League material. The only 'lost' station was camelot command. And don't even say your alt has otherwise.
As for Fortresses – all throughout human history fortresses have been established to keep the stamp ones authority over the land, whilst simultaneously forming a strategic location from which to attack and defend from.
Forts are like castles. Once the canon was figured out, they became pretty obsolete.
Now. If you want to put all your industries together in one nice package, I am sure your enemy won't hesitate. to make what little remains, glow in the dark. On shot, and no more resistance to their push. And then the inevitable comes up. Why risk the troops on worthless worlds? Let's just guard the factories.
- the core idea of a massive loss of technology has occurred can be disputed as many of the core military industrial sites are now a matter of security.
- the idea that Warships can no longer be manufactured are also a matter of debate.
- the amount and access to space parts or exotic technology should be easier to gain access to and at a lower price.
- because of the introduction of mass fortresses the proliferation of RCTs throughout the Great Houses from an earlier stand-pont– including armour, artillery, VTOLs and infantry - must be considered when attempting to crack a very hard egg in their attempt to gain control of these worlds.
Warships can be built in 3025, but Comstar didn't want people asking questions.
The game was meant to be the 'dark ages' of history. Mankind is fighting back from the devastation wrought by the 'endless' wars. This isn't world of tanks, or some other game that lets you buy what ever you got the money for.
And study up on the RCT. House Davion had them, in 3025 and no one else. Most were straight one or the other with some fighter support from time to time. Others adopted the concept, as it was used very well by Davion.
Just letting your forces starve to death would give me control of the world. A fortress guards one area. Unless you send out patrols and such, you don't control the world as you think.
And again. Trying to put forth intel from the future to change it is really getting old.
As is having a canon question being a front for more canon is illogical, but my alt fixes it.
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ghostrider
08/24/19 03:02 AM
66.74.60.165
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As we are still waiting for a response, try economics and the idea of colonization with this.
The factories and such aren't normally built by the governments, but businesses, and most are taking advantage of local resources, including land cost, labor, and economic incentives to build something in the area, to stimulate growth.
Once scouted, and the big companies get ahold of that information is when and where things go. Jumpship and dropship maintenance and repair goes in the main corridor of flow, not at the back end of a rarely used run.
Defiance wasn't decided by the Lyrans, but the Star League. Once the League fell, could there even be a possibility of moving it? I doubt it.
Strip it for parts? Surely.
Looking at the proposed idea here, the Lyrans should have stripped or burned the factory to keep the other houses from getting ahold of it. Not that anyone did, but they didn't know that.
I would think they used that set of factories to keep the enemy focused on the area.
But do you think the Lestrades would have allowed the factory to be moved out of the Isle of Skye?
More likely, they would have attacked anyone trying to do so.
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Carns
09/05/19 04:52 PM
168.9.128.5
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Carns
06/25/19 08:32 AM
168.9.128.5
Because the answer to EVERY SINGLE ONE of your questions is ALWAYS the **** same.
It's a game about big, stompy robots. The fiction is altered to the point of making big stompy robot the focus of the universe, and to make the table top game fit on a tabletop.
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See response from June.
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