Karagin
06/22/02 08:34 PM
63.173.170.107
|
Would some one explain this: Devlin Stone created The Republic as an egalitarian society ?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
novakitty
06/22/02 11:03 PM
209.242.100.230
|
Definition for egalitarian provided by The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Other important copyright information
ADJECTIVE
Affirming, promoting, or characterized by belief in equal political, economic, social, and civil rights for all people.
ETYMOLOGY
From French égalitaire, from égalité, equality, from Latin aequalitas, from aequalis, equal. See EQUAL.
OTHER FORMS
e·gal''i·tar'i·an - NOUN
e·gal''i·tar'i·an·ism - NOUN
meow
|
Karagin
06/23/02 12:32 AM
63.173.170.100
|
 Now why does that sound a lot like the Galatic Repbulic from Star Wars... 
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Grizzly
06/23/02 04:13 PM
12.108.119.227
|
Because a republic is a government with a senate that the people rule by representation. AKA ancient Rome prior to Ceasar or the Galactic Republic from Star Wars or even our fine democratic republic.
"I am but mad north-northwest, when the wind is southerly I know a hawk from a handsaw" Hamlet
|
Karagin
06/23/02 04:21 PM
63.173.170.110
|
"Galactic Republic from Star Wars "
That is the part that will end up getting them into trouble...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
novakitty
06/23/02 05:44 PM
209.242.100.230
|
It probably will not. "Empire" was used by a great deal more places than just Star Wars, and none of them were sued.
Fortunately, not everything can be the basis of a lawsuit.
meow
|
Nightward
06/23/02 06:14 PM
211.26.1.120
|
"AKA ancient Rome prior to Ceasar"
What? Have you studied Roman history? Only the richest and most powerful familes were represented in the Senate, although several people- most notably the Gracchus Brothers tried to change that and make things fairer. There is a ifference between intent and action.
"our fine democratic republic"
Ah, yes, the one in which you current President was elected by a panel of judges instead of the people. Of course...
As I said before, there is a difference between intent and action. The ancient Athenians have come closer than anyone else in history to running a true democratic nation, but that system is what led to their downfall at the hands of the Spartans, Persians, and pretty bloody well anyone else who wanted to take out Athens...
No system is perfect, but if people were happy to hand over their 'Mechs, this one must have very nearly been so. Lord knows I'd never sign over my Akuma unless I knew for certain that I'd never need to ilot it again...
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
|
Karagin
06/23/02 06:50 PM
63.173.170.87
|
This is Lucas who we are talking about, remember he went after ABC and their Battlestar Galaticia show do to thing he saw as similar to his movie...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
NathanKell
06/23/02 07:57 PM
24.44.238.62
|
Probably as egalitarian as the one Alexander Hamilton wanted, really.
Hmm...only nobles as senators, only nobles as governors..."selects the exarch from among their own ranks..."
Reminds me of the thread on CBT: What if Devlin Stone is...Devlin Stone? (i.e. we-don't-need-no-stinkin'-nobles)
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
NathanKell
06/23/02 08:21 PM
24.44.238.62
|
I'm still trying to pick between President-Select and President* myself. Or perhaps pResident...
Gotta love drug tests for public housing... 
{Oops! Is my bias showing? Tucks bias back in.}
Anyway, I'd actually say that this RotS is rather similar to the Roman Republic...both about equally as representative...
And I always did have a soft spot for the brothers Gracchi...especially the younger (Hmm...Caius Sempronius? The elder was Tiberius, that I remember). Set things up for Marius and Sulla, though.
But to characterize Athens as a democratic nation rather ignores the what, 4/5ths or so of the population who weren't citizens...and the 1/5 or more who were slaves. Nothing compared to Sparta, of course, but significant nonetheless. And I would certainly not claim that it was their form of government which led to their downfall, nor that it was unique. There were, IIRC, a great number of more or less democratic city-states in Classic Greece, only that Athens was the most famous (or, by the time of Pericles and his successors, infamous...). Those city-states were a spread over a spectrum of citizenship tests, true, from the most restrictive (i.e. only 50 or so "citizens"  ) to Athens's pretty much least restrictive Athenian-on-both-sides test.
While it is certainly true that democracy and demagogues worked hand in hand to precipitate the massacres that were so key to losing Athens the Peloponnesian War, I doubt that a (smaller number) archy, in conjunction with the sort of mob that was almost guaranteed to exist in any but the most oppressive *cough*Sparta*cough* states, would have been any less bloody.
And when did the Persians take out Athens? Take, yes; take out, no. Other than Sparta only Phillip of Macedon, like Epaminondas before him (though that latter didn't take Athens, just free it...), succeeded, but by adopting the pike and lighter armor (and thus greater numbers and mobility) necessary to defeat a Classical phalanx.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Karagin
06/23/02 08:37 PM
63.173.170.96
|
News Flash...
Terran Hegemony:
McKenna delcares new government...Nobles picked from comman folk...
End News Flash...
Seen this before...is it me or is MWDA become a repeat of something we have seen before  ?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
NathanKell
06/23/02 10:27 PM
24.44.238.62
|
Since when were the nobles in the RotS picked by the common folk? They're the same nobles as before the RotS, they're just Senators or Lord Governors now instead of / in addition to just Barons, Dukes, etc.
And ISTR that the Peer List was based on choices by (Michael?) Cameron, for individual achievement.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Karagin
06/23/02 11:46 PM
63.173.170.205
|
I don't think I said picked by the common folks, but came from the common folk.
But your point is correct nothing as far as who was a noble changed, so much for this perfect government.
The Peers List is as you say...the point being though is we have heard this before, the whole better government and all that this RotS is a new name for the the Star League IMHO.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
novakitty
06/24/02 12:03 AM
209.242.100.230
|
Given the size that must be considered by such a government, and the relatively slow speed of travel and communications, a representative level is needed. Whether the representatives have any real say in what happens is the only matter to decide. The assumption that the best representatives are the same nobles who had been fighting each other their entire lives is a bit flawed.
In a scenario where there could be real-time communication between the furthest points of the nation, other government styles could be attempted. Lacking that, each world (or region, or whatever is the size of one represented area) speaks to the representative and, optimally, the representative does what is in the best interest of his/her representees.
meow
|
Nightward
06/24/02 12:16 AM
202.138.19.70
|
I will gant you the Helots of Athens, but aside from that the process was good. I especially liked the way Athenians selected their 'Ministers"- they chucked everyone's name in a hat and drew one out. "Hey, Bob. It's your turn to run the Ministry of Finance this year."
in truth, democracy- like commuism- can only work if no-one is selfish. Unless it is a commune of Buddhist Monks somewhere up in the Himalayas, it will never really work.
Your knowledge of Roman and Greek history is impressive. We, who are about to loose the argument, salute you 
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
|
Karagin
06/24/02 12:20 AM
63.173.170.205
|
Did you miss the part about the better commo that comes very close to being similar to the Star Wars Holonet setup?
And given that HPGs can transmitter real time info I doubt very much if commo is that lacking...given that Stone would have an in with those running the system.
Regional Governers having full control, wow does that not sound like Tarkin's line from Star Wars, is NOTHING new in the game. Look at all the Princes in the Fed-Suns or the Warlords in the Combine.
The point being is WK is telling us all of this is NEW and DIFFERENT and it's not. Same old system new name.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
novakitty
06/24/02 12:31 AM
209.242.100.230
|
Yes I did miss the parts about the technology upgrades. I was relying on the 60 light year maximum range and burst data transfer of the Star League.
On an unrelated note: What do you suggest as the optimal government?
meow
|
NathanKell
06/24/02 12:43 AM
24.44.238.62
|
LOL, right you are. I did indeed misread your post.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Karagin
06/24/02 02:57 AM
63.173.170.202
|
In reply to:
On an unrelated note: What do you suggest as the optimal government?
That one is a really tough...I favor a strong central government and also one that is not going to let public opinion run it either. And I have a ton of other ideas as well.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Greyslayer
06/24/02 10:22 AM
137.172.211.9
|
There is no 'best government' from what I can see. The larger the governement though the greater the level of corruption (and thus the less efficient the system becomes as per civilization 2), also the older the system the more corruption manages to get into it (such as archiac laws being used by lawyers to get their rich clients off)....
I would probably say in that respect that a continually totally 'rewritten' constitution (I would say every 10 years or so) would be the best bet. either that or the totalitarian AI with hardcoded laws .
Greyslayer
|
NathanKell
06/24/02 10:28 PM
24.44.238.62
|
{ponders}
Hmmm....
{Points thumb down}
{Nightward is escorted from the Arena, alive. This time.}
Well, it's only fitting we discuss Classical history on a Classic BT board...
And, of course, the great thing about history is that, by and large, you *can't* win or lose arguments, just...differ in opinion. 
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |