Requiem
04/08/18 08:33 PM
58.175.193.140
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Consider Winston Churchill’s order regarding the S.O.E. …. “and now set Europe ablaze”.
This is exactly how the secondary war between the Inner Sphere and Clans would evolve, in the event a stand up battle is impractical … convert to insurgent tactics, that being sabotage, assassination, kidnapping, etc. but on a grander scale …
(Primary war, being the war on the front and the Tertiary being the war within the periphery).
However before we consider this you must first consider the resource book Sourcebook: 20 year Update (#1639) in which detailed each House’s 'Mech Strength as at 3050 – (A vast difference from all other resource books concerning the Clan invasion – I must therefore surmise the reduced Inner Sphere strength was done on purpose to allow the Clans the ability to occupy a vast Inner Sphere area for game purposes)
The twenty year update, however, indicated the following ‘Mech Regiments for each house…
Federated Commonwealth 268 Regiments , 1 Battalion
The Former Capellan Confederation 26 Regiments
Draconis Combine 99 Regiments
Free Rasalhague Republic 16 Regiments, 2 Battalions
Free Worlds League 66 Regiments, 2 Battalions
Duchy of Andurien 6 Regiments
Magistracy of Canopus 12 Regiments, 1 Battalion
Total D of A / M of C 18 Regiments, 1 Battalion
Taurian 14 Regiments
Alliance 3 Regiments
Other Periphery 10 Regiments
Comstar 50 + Regiments
The Clans however consisted of:-
Clan Wolf – 807 Battlemechs; 1610 elementals; 582 fighters; 2 warships; 82 jumpships; 242 dropships
Jade Falcon – 972 Battlemechs; 2235 elementals; 584 fighters; 20 warships; 12 jumpships; 140 dropships
Ghost Bears 12 Clusters (60 Trinaries) 2 Warships; 27 Jumpships
Smoke Jaguars 8 Clusters (40 Trinaries) 4 Warships; 38 Jumpships
Steel Vipers 7 Clusters (35 Trinaries) 1 Warship; 13 Jumpships
Nova Cats 9 Clusters (45 Trinaries) 14 Warships; 23 Jumpships
Prior to their invasion the clans should have remembered that of Napoleon – and his invasion of Russia – Long supply chains can lead to extreme problems on the front lines and especially when cut – thus to rectify these Clan’s would have established within the deep periphery, prior to their invasion of the Inner Sphere bases were established which are used as either ….
• A supply depo;
• Training facility for new warrior candidates (replacement personnel); and/or
• Each Clan may have established a manufacturing centre – for – ammunition; weapon systems; spare parts; battlemechs; elemental suits; and aerospace fighters (?) Though ammunition and essential spare parts seems the most likely.
(Garrisoned by only enough to stop a trial of possession by another Clan)
Clan Invasion
Assume the war proceeds as per normal for the First Wave …
Free Rasalhague Republic
Due to the size of their military the FRR would have to request military assistance from either/both the FC and DC to bolster their forces and provide a united front against the invaders (also to stop them gaining access to the rear of FC / DC operational zone via the FRR).
Guerrilla / Irregular warfare by IS Forces – by the Second Wave both the Federated Commonwealth and the Draconis Combine would realize that regular combat is ineffectual (at this stage) ….. an immediate order to transfer to irregular tactics would be issued together with a requirement for information on the following topic points:-
1. Transportation – the size of each Clan’s Fleet and their composition;
2. Size / Composition of each Clan’s forces – battle tactics – weapon composition / range / damage / heat / armour – survivability in battle etc.;
3. Supplies – transportation routes – food supplies – maintenance equipment, ‘Mechs, fighters, elementals, and their respective replacement pilots – where are they held within the periphery (on what world(s)) – ships / supply dates et al;
4. How are the people (civilians) / POWs being treated (unknown due to Comstar’s blackout);
5. Note:- By this stage each Federated Commonwealth World and RCTs forces would have access to Hanse Davion HPG Fax Machine. To operate in the event of another ComStar Interdiction (again). Thus the supply of information has been slowed but not stopped.
Thus the Federated Commonwealth, Free Rasalhague Republic and the Draconis Combine will send in to the new Clan Occupation Zone reconnaissance teams – small mercenary / house units – (approx. one to one company) – experts in guerrilla / irregular warfare – DEST / Rabid Fox (MIIO) / Loki units (intelligence et al) + commando units (assassination – insurgency)
Mercenary Contracts would also be available / thus the clans would now have to enact counter insurgency operations – however, the clans have no experience with this type of warfare (look closely at how they fight) and given the limited number of elementals per base, and the number you could have effective / operational at any one time would also limit their bases security. Thus the effectiveness of IS Forces would come down to their ability to effectively down an elemental and penetrate any technological security measures.
Their objectives are three fold – 1. Intelligence gathering – size / structure / location of each Clan’s garrison – communication methods – supply issues; ….. 2. Social – clan / indigenous population relations – Comstar HPG Stations and communication with the outside – individuals (either soldiers / technicians) who could be turned and become a spy for the IS; …. 3. Target of opportunity – if we can ‘acquire’ clan tech / liberate POW Camps / return safely …. Authorised to do so.
(Nt: again each unit’s DEST / Rabid Fox (MIIO) / Loki Unit will have a “Davion” HPG Fax Machine to send and receive transmissions – to bypass Comstar’s Interdiction/interference)
At the end of each sojourn a Dest / Rabid Fox (MIIO) / Loki agent remains on planet to coordinate partisan activities – plus to supply these partisans with advanced weaponry i.e. long range rifles / explosives – knowledge - to work as an effective cell during the invasion.
Knowledge Gleamed -
• Rough idea at to Fleet Size for each Clan – including the numbers of Warships / Jumpships;
• How each clan ensures civil compliance / Base security;
• Comstar’s “administration” of each planet (acting as a “Vichie” WWII government);
• Terrorist activities on each world – ability to make contact if possible;
• Interrelations between can / indigenous population – Warden Clans (find a situation similar to that of “Vietnam”) and Crusader Clans (find a situation like ‘Nazi – France / Russia’);
• What happened to our captured forces;
• Size / composition / Location of Garrison Forces and use of Comstar HPG Facilities to communicate between clans;
• Resupply dropships – size – food supplies – date arrived;
• Target of Opportunity – in the event the entire garrison’s warriors can be neutralised “outside the cockpit” / Leaving a minimum amount of Elementals / Mechs to deal with using our forces to do so – attack – capture all remaining technicians and ‘Mechs / Fighters / Elemental Armour + dropship and all computer / hard copy information et al.;
• Those captured – talked to and convert using bondsman etc. - clan rules to change side – if not …
• (Nt: my forces liberated a POW Camp and was able to find many Periphery Pirates – including Susie “one-Eye” Morgraine-Ryan at this stage / Remember WWII SAS raids upon airfields by using very fast jeeps / explosives – target engines etc. – in /out)
Once returned to Federated-Commonwealth / Draconis Combine Space:-
Debrief – new missions behind the Clan Occupation Zone are refined and enacted;
Command circuit erected from forward reconnaissance base to capital planet – Tharkad / Luthien – all information gleamed to be analysed.
At this point Price Hanse Davion decides to use a ‘backroom channel’ to provide the Draconis Combine with his intelligence regarding ComStar / and asks how the two sides can work together to defeat the Clans (Share intelligence regarding each Clan) – and to come to a consensus regarding ComStar's Vichie activity.
Development of new IS weapon systems would also be initiated, including.
• Anti-elemental infantry weapon (together with armour piercing / explosive armour piercing rounds/ depleted uranium (cook the suit)) – that would have a maximum range of say 600 to 900m;
• Infantry weapons – gas grenades that can be used to incapacitate even an elemental for a short time (outside their armour);
• Arrow IV / Air burst bombs for aerospace fighters – Chafe rounds – that are used to disrupt clan scanner arrays; and
• Bomber aerospace fighters – fitted with space arrow IV – three times the range with twice the explosive potential (ammo two per ton).
(Bombers to be utilized further down – they should be first used within a deep periphery space force hunting for Clan basses – To deny them access to their supplies and to rearm IS forces with Clan tech).
Therefore consider the following for integration into your game…
• With the aid of former Periphery Pirate Houses - multiple reconnaissance raids into the periphery – finding the locations of supply bases – Cutting off supply (weapons and personnel) routes would commence under the command of Morgan Hasek-Davion – Second in Command Susie “one-Eye” Morgraine-Ryan;
• Secondary effect – all captured clan material is sent to the front to re-arm existing elite house units with clan technology (level the playing field) – though some are sent to engineering plants – reverse engineer / improve upon existing Inner sphere weapon systems – if production facilities found – dismantle and send back to IS (gives you an understanding of reverse engineering clan tech;
• Scale up “spy / terrorist” activity within the Clan Occupation Zone (Clans would be hard pressed to stop this – as they do not have a military security force to protect their bases (long range assassinations) and their limited number of elementals would also be ineffective as a security screen;
• Propaganda – undermine “True Born” – free-births are to be de-programed – show them the joy of being a citizen of the inner sphere (repressed culture Vs. open culture again);
• Reinforce our main units with advanced technology – salvaged clan weapons – introduction of IS omni mechs / fighters – ani-elemental (infantry weapon) gauss sniper rifle (the ability to kill an elemental at long range);
• Look at using new strategies to win – use the location of the battle to minimise their strengths to win – use the location of the battle to minimise their strengths and maximise ours – no fixed C in C (must be mobile).
• Ie. IS overall strategy – how their forces can take away their garrison worlds by destroying their supply channels (jumpships) – only Nova Cat and jade Falcon have a sizeable navy;
• IS begins / continues with warship / pocket-warship production – armed with thermonuclear devices and large number of fighters – in both the Federated Commonwealth and the Draconis Combine;
• New armies are established – 1. Navy – Periphery war (destruction/capture of all supplies) 2. Terrorist activities upon Clan garrison worlds and 3. Anti-expansion of Clan space (regular forces) and 4 Psi-ops – how to bring the clans “trueborn” Vs. “freeborn” to a hostile state and “deprogramming “freeborn” to Inner Sphere Citizens ;
• The introduction of a new intelligence unit – aim – to find the Clans Home worlds.
Resumption of War (November 3051):-
• If Wolf’s Dragoons give up the timeframe or returning to clan space – elect a new ilkhan return to the IS (just over 1 year) – Would Steiner / Davion / Kurita resume the war before their leadership cast return?
• Would IS forces be able to quarantine (for a time at least) the returning clan forces from the IS?
• Also use partisans – Dest / MIIO / Loki plus commando teams to strike on multiple worlds at a predetermined date to kill any remaining command structure prior to a mass IS invasion.
• IS forces decide to not let the Clans dictate the time table.
• IS move more of their elite units from the Davion / Kurita border to the Clan border – have them train by using them as “OPFor” for more experienced units fighting the Clans – understand their tactics / weapons etc.
• Strategy retake those worlds in the periphery deny access to their resupply worlds or have they or are they in the process of moving them into / onto an inner sphere world thus making it a ‘target’.
• Note:- at this stage Hanse Davion / Steiner has additional forces to move around (former Capellan Confederation units).
• Also House Kurita has the most Clan Mechs / Salvage from the destruction of the Jaguars (?).
• Begin deep periphery reconnaissance? (Mercenary strike forces – Vengeance Class / Pocket Warships (uses of atomic mines at Jump points? Nt: FC zone Commanded by Morgan Hasek-Davion his second Susie “one-eye” Morgraine-Ryan )
• Change in IS Tactics – Use aerospace fighters against Clan Jumpships (specifically their engines) – why – all Clans have small number of commercial jumpships – disable these and they will be unable to re-commence their invasion on a large scale – plus their ability to perform maintenance is also restricted to mobile docks (a tactic that could slow down or even halt the Clan advance for a time – however this would also mean IS Jumpships would also become military targets)
Operation Containment:-
Six months into the Clan operation Shutdown both the Federated Commonwealth and the Draconis Combine launch the first wave to retake periphery border worlds – cutting off these Clans within the IS from the Supply routes.
Problem remains the number of warships of both the Nova Cat and Jade Falcon.
This is to coincide with partisan bombings / assassinations / infantry commando assaults upon lone “trinary” and below garrisons on all worlds within the occupation zone.
Targeting Clan transport jump-ships (i.e. disable their engines or capture intact).
The speed of the assaults surprises even the clans, finding themselves besieged by the local population, most clans attack, however the population is prepared (especially within Kurita Space) – detonating buildings to create kill boxes – luring elementals into buildings only to find them a trap – their arrogance / superiority proving their own downfall.
Upon the Bloodnamed return to the Inner Sphere the clans find a vastly different situation – Inner sphere units using either more advanced / clan weapons on a mass scale – the majority of all their overall merchant fleets have been either captured or destroyed – their only viable asses the Clan’s Naval Warships (though they are under constant threat of nuclear attack).
Though their forces are now besieged, and elemental forces have been reduced due to the introduction of commando troops, explosives, assassination, poisoning food / water –and whole worlds citizens are rebelling completely when the clans attempted to force their culture upon them in an attempt to destroy their very identity / religion and way of life.
They are also informed many “true-born” were seduced by the freedoms of an inner sphere life and have thus defected, individually or in groups on many worlds. Note Clan Merchant Caste would also smuggle illegal goods back to Clan Space (This could also have a detrimental effect upon the Clan population long term) as the Clan’s Merchant Caste have established trading with IS traders for certain “hard to find” goods.
ComStar have cut their access to communication via their HPG sites and had aided the Federated Commonwealth / Draconis Combine on the field of battle.
Worse yet the Deep periphery worlds of Cambridge and TJ239H2 have fallen to Federated Commonwealth Forces, Inner Sphere forces have also gained the knowledge of a complete map of the deep periphery and are acting accordingly.
Psi-ops and the Clans:-
With the capture of the Orbital Cargo Transfer Facility (at TJ239H2) – this provided a cross section of the Clan’s society.
Psi-ops teams began to question / deprogram them from a closed society to an open society – attempting to work out what works best.
Their aim – questioning the nature of the stratification of society being against the Star League Values Kurensky was attempting to protect during the Amaris Coup …. And ….. how would this affect their repressed culture ….
(Hidden aim – to start a civil war within Clan Space – Free-birth Vs. True Born)
Technical Clan – Bondsmen and Asylum Seekers:-
Many ex clan technicians (asylum seekers from the clans) are transferred to research and development teams to “assist” with the production of new more advanced weapon systems for ‘Mechs, Inner Sphere Elementals and aerospace fighters etc.
Other Factors affecting the Clan’s Resumption of War:-
Clan Smoke jaguar return to the Inner Sphere with their remaining forces?
Introduction of both Clan Nova Cat and Diamond Shark to the War, in an attempt to re-open their supply lines to their besieged units.
With the increased number of regimental combat teams on each targeted planet, their increased level of technology and the long supply chains are taking their toll on the forward momentum of the Clans Advance – necessitating more and more energy based weapon systems over those weapons that require consumables.
Even holding a planet is becoming even harder for the Clans as they do not have any experience with policing a population (threats and executions do not work) - ensuring civil compliance is reducing – and garrison security with only ‘Mechs and elementals are not suitable to ensure their bases overall security - increasing number of IS commando raids upon their bases is becoming more problematic.
Hence, has the Clans returned with vast numbers of armed security personnel / infantry units to protect their bases? (very un-clan like however this may be their only option). – only other option is to vastly increase the number of elementals as a security force?
Do their new security personnel have the capability of anti-insurgent warfare? (as time goes on they will have to get better at this or suffer repeated setbacks) or do they have the technology to stop insurgency upon their bases?
All Clans forward Momentum has slowed to a crawl – Clans begin to experience reversals as worlds are re-conquered by the inner sphere forces both at their front and in their rear as garrison units become increasingly under attack by IS forces.
Between 3052:-
Resumption of war zones ….
• Along the clan front (front line forces);
• Within the periphery (raids upon existing Clan supply bases and fleets attempting to reach the Inner Sphere) (Swashbuckling and Piracy)
• Within the clan occupation zone (IS insurgent force Vs. Clan Anti-insurgent force)
May 21st: Operation Revival:-
The Clan Invasion, officially halted with ComStar's victory on "Tamar". The truce between ComStar and the Clans stipulates that no Clan may advance beyond the "Tamar Line" for the next 15 years.
Nt: At this stage all Successor States must create the most advance weapons they can and in high numbers to defeat the Clans superior Range / Damage / Armor.
Wedding to unite the IS (?):-
June 3052 – Katherine Steiner Davion (age:20yrs) was wed to Michael Marik (age: 19 yrs) on Terra. The leaders of the various Inner Sphere, now gathered together, begins talks to accomplish peacefully what they had failed to achieve during centuries of war – The rebirth of the Star League. There they agreed on a single purpose – to end the Clan threat once and for all.
OR?
A marriage of Victor Steiner-Davion and Omika Kurita ? – the political ramifications of this would be vast not only with the Black Dragon Society but also with the Sandovals. (Very unlikely that Theodore would even contemplate this at this stage)
OR?
How can the Free Wolds League be brought into the Clan War / be the arms merchants to the Inner Sphere for the duration of the Clan War? Money – or is there something else?
The Commencement of the Re-birth of the Star League:-
Following the wedding (?) all sides commence discussions regarding the re-establishment of the Star League -
Arc-Royal defence cordon:-
By August 3052 – The Kell Hounds establish the Arc-Royal defence cordon with the approval of Archon Melissa Steiner, an anti-clan defensive zone centred on Arc-Royal.
The ‘New’ Red Corsairs:-
August 3052 – Additional ‘pirate’ forces are transferred to the periphery (with pocket warship dropships / mine layer dropships / Vengeance Class Dropships). Their aim is to restrict any additional personnel and material entering into the Inner sphere. Thus they increase the number of raids within the deep periphery clan space.
Rearmament of Inner Sphere Forces commences:-
The Clan occupation zone is being set ablaze with infiltration units:-
Clan Forces execute raids upon IS Worlds:-
My Time line included some of the following that may be of interest:-
3053
February – Word of Blake formally succeeds from Comstar and is given the world of Gibson in the Free worlds League.
June 19th: Corinne Marik is assassinated by a Gibson Radical re the introduction of the Word of Blake to their world (in reality an assassin hired by Katherine Steiner-Davion-Marik).
Michael Marik (Katherine’s husband) now becomes the new Captain General.
August: Isis Marik moves to < > (The Capital of the Federated Commonwealth) to be with Katherine Steiner-Davion.
December 15: Clan Wolf declares the Trial of Refusal to Clan Jade Falcon, thus starting the Refusal War … Natasha Kerenski dies in combat … The Creation of the Wolves in Exile … Death of both Clan Jade Falcon Khans Vandervahn Chistu and Elias Crichell after Vlad Ward challenges them in Trials for their respective actions … Vlad Ward recreates Clan Wolf from Clan Jade Wolf and is elected Khan of Clan Wolf … Marthe Pryde is elected Khan of Clan Jade Falcon …. Vlad Ward is elected Khan of Clan Wolf.
OR/-
At this stage The Arc Royal Defense Cordon could unleash a massive attack (say 50/75 RCTs minimum) within the Clan Occupation Zone – if timed correctly this attack could re-capture may worlds and significantly weaken the single clan Jade Wolf or the two separate ones
AT THE SAME TIME/-
As the Refusal War Wages within the inner Sphere Morgan Hasek-Davion Emerges from his secret Deep Periphery Base within the Chainelane Isles – from there he not only captures the second station at TJ239H2 he goes on to capture Cambridge, Wark, Wolf 82 and Trinity.
Whilst at the same time the Draconis Combine launch an attack from the Comstar facility TF4 and rout the forces, and capture, Bazaar, Gwithian and Nouveaux Paris.
Those Clan Forces within the Inner Sphere find themselves cut off from the Clan Home Worlds. (OR/- only limited numbers get through the blockade into the Inner Sphere).
3054
February 28th: Word of Blake begins assault on Terra (manual opening of all ‘Mech Bays – Computer lockdown (?) – there must be a manual override). However, by the end of May the Word of Blake forces are repulsed by a relief force from the Federated Commonwealth’s New Capital Planet.
March 15th-May 10th: Invasion of Coventry by Clan Jade Falcon.
June 5th: Victor Steiner-Davion arrives on Coventry with a multinational task force. Shortly thereafter, Clan Jade Falcon return to their Occupation Zone.
November 14th: Precentor Martial Anastasius Focht presents location of the Clan home-worlds.
3055
Early January - March 30th: The Star League is resurrected.
May 13th: Operation Bird Dog starts against the Inner Sphere Clans (all of them). (Over 100 FC Regiments; 70 DC Regiments; 40 CS Regiments; 9 FRR Regiments; 20 FWL Regiments and 5 DofA/MofC Regiments + multiple mercenary units)
(Think Clan Invasion – however in reverse and at the same time mass uprisings by partisan units hinder all Clan’s initial responses – including assassinations – acts of sabotage etc.)
May 20th:
The resurrected Star League launches Task Force Serpent – including Northwind Highlanders etc.
Clan Nova Cat and Ghost Bear moves most (all they are able to) of their assets to the Inner Sphere.
August 13th: Clan Nova Cat and Ghost Bear defects to the Star League which leads to their abjurement. Clan Nova Cat to the Draconis Combine and Ghost Bear to the Free Rasalhague Republic.
3056
November: The final IS Clan forces have been repulsed and their original borders have been returned
Price Victor Steiner Davion follows Task Force Serpent
March 2nd: Inner Sphere forces conquer Eden and Huntress.
April 9th: Conquest of Eden ends.
(NT: all infrastructure and computer cores etc. re all clan technology (plus key individuals) are returned to the Inner Sphere to create parity between Inner Sphere technology and that of Clan Technology within the next 20-30 years - If you believe they just destroyed their ability to create war and left ....... - I cannot rationalize this - the army has a duty to protect the IS and this can only be done with advanced Clan technology returning to the IS at this stage).
Clan Jade Falcon and Smoke Jaguars are Annihilated (remember they have both received a beating within the IS and their forces are limited upon their home worlds).
April 23th: Great Refusal fought on Strana Mechty.
The Great Refusal ends in victory for the Inner Sphere, ending the Clan Invasion.
(Nt: at this stage Loki / MIIO / Dest psi-ops agents are released secretly into Clan society – once all Inner Sphere forces leave clan space they begin to distribute Commanding General Aleksandr Kerensky Documents / interviews etc + information regarding different political systems etc – The result of this will result in the Wars of Reaving – Civil War – Free Births Vs True Born as to how the political government should be run – i.e. a move away from a Dictatorship by the Military to either Communist or Democratic system with the military serving the people not the other way around)
3057 (onwards)
March 15th: Star League forces under the command of Victor Ian Steiner-Davion return from Clan space.
In his absence he discovers that both his mother, Melissa Arthur Steiner-Davion and Michael Marik have been assassinated – his, pregnant, sister Katherine Steiner-Davion-Marik as Regent Captain General of the Free Worlds League for her infant daughter Elizabeth Steiner Davion Marik is at war with her sister Yvonne Steiner-Davion Regent of the Federated Commonwealth for the throne of the Federated Commonwealth.
Even with the re-appearance of Victor the War continues on. Victor is forced to stand down as Yvonne becomes the ruler of the Federated Commonwealth. Or/- Does Victor step in and take back control of the FC (?)
Victor begins his investigations into the death of his mother Melissa and his brother in law Michael – he will over time come to the conclusion that his sister Katherine had them assassinated for her to become the defacto 1st Star Lord.
November 1st: Second Whitting Conference is held on Tharkad. Theodore Kurita is elected First Lord of the Star League after Victor becomes ComStar's Precentor Martial.
Katherine aligns herself with the Word of Blake. Civil War Continues between FC and FWL. (over time this will stop)
During this time Sun-Su Liao attempts to re-establish the Capellan Confederation on Sian – his cousin Kai Allard Liao kills him and destroys the mercenary unit Warrior House Liao.
Assume that over 10 to 20 years IS technology has been brought up to the same level of technology as that of the clans.
Assume, long term, that Katherine becomes the Leader for the World of Blake – jihad continues as per books?.
War continues between Clan Home Worlds and the IS Star League Forces (Commanded by Victor) – Border Wars between IS Forces – Disputes between Clans
? If Katherine’s assassins are successful in killing Yvonne – Victor re-emerges to become the FC Leader and the civil war starts up again
? Does Victor Marry Isis- prior to Yvonnes death – as he now has a claim to the FWL throne – does he end this once and for all and he absorbs them into the FC. (one step closer to the Star League)
? Does katherine’s use of assassins become common knowledge – FWL dissolves into multiple duchies all autonomous from one another as a result – hence multiple wars.
His (Victor’s) child marries the DC scion – they rule as the new “Camerons” of the Star League.
Then, Give it a couple of generations – to 3150 approx. – War again IS Star League – Deep Periphery – Naval / Aerospace / Mech etc – vs. the new Clans (post reeving) – as they have come full circle again to be-come the ilClan) (some people never learn).
This could be interesting – Deep periphery wars on multiple worlds between IS and Clan space – Large warship Fleet wars – battles for planets that are required for logistical – strategic reasons – Mech Battles – Elemental Units .
NT:- the HPG Blackout (in the future) would be completely ineffective within both FC and DC space as both realms, all their planets and their front line RCTs, would have a HPG Fax Machines. How modern the machine is would depend upon the strategic value of the planet / military unit (Nt: These units are not affected by the virus). Also Clan variant of these machines? – has this technology been integrated into the IS machines?
Would the Capellan Confederation be reborn from St Ives? – during the FC / FWL war or would it be finally be absorbed into either the FC or the FWL.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
04/08/18 08:35 PM
58.175.193.140
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Requiem
Adelaide, Australia
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
04/10/18 12:21 AM
58.175.193.140
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Consider the periphery supply bases
Think of the logistics that went into the D-Day landings – the Clans could not carry around all their own supplies and send requests back to Clan space for supplies (taking 6+ months to arrive) there had to forward supply bases within the periphery.
And think of the old axiom of war “make your enemy weaker by making yourself stronger” (ie. take their supplies / deny them their replacement personnel – use these to increase the fighting effectiveness of all IS forces).
Also consider when you are out there in space you are now part of a new wolf pack (WWII submarines) – who find the Clan convoy – use their Hanse Davion HPG Fax Machine - call up other elements – and attack (refer WWII convoys between America and England)
Whilst certain convoy routes would become known to IS Forces, as you know where the Clans Jumpships will pop out, you could also place mines there either to restrict their movements (where to jump next / inability to jump at all) or as a surprise attack before the main attack begins.
Then after the attack – take over the ship / crew / supplies / Dropships et al and plunder away.
Also if you are part of the Clan's how could you strike back at these treacherous IS Pirates of the Black Void?
(are you able to find Morgan Hasek-Davion's Tortuga Base of operations? )
This element was never applied within the original books and I believe it should have been - so have fun adding this to your game night.
Requiem, Adelaide Australia.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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csadn
04/10/18 01:15 AM
50.53.22.4
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Well, you *have* managed to nail down why the game began circling the drain with the Clan Invasion: It is so poorly thought-out and written, even a four-year-old knows it's a load of rubbish. The only reason it exists is: FASA realized it had written itself into a corner with 4SW -- it was "FedCom Uber Alles", which hacked off everyone who didn't play as Davion or Steiner (and the less said about the accusations of "racism", the better).
Really, FASA would have been better off combining the Clan Invasion with what eventually became the Jihad: Realizing the FedCom is a threat to its power, Waterly's ComStar turns loose the Com Guards on the FedCom, with support from DC, FWL, and CC; Waterly uses her "allies" as bullet-absorbers; then when they are sufficiently weakened (in her eyes), she backstabs them as well. For obvious reasons, FedCom and the other powers won't ally against ComStar; but all of the IS powers end up fighting, and eventually defeating, ComStar. Then follows the inevitable grabbing of power and plunder by the Houses -- and with no ComStar to moderate them....
CF
Oregon: The "Outworlds Alliance" of the United States of America
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Requiem
04/30/18 08:01 PM
58.175.193.140
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Please now go to Alt. History: The Fist Clan Invasion 3050 to 3053 - a chronological timetable of the first war - that I have now expanded as a preview to a second campaign.
Please also let me know your thoughts regarding these posts.
Requiem
Adelaide, Australia
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
06/10/18 09:20 PM
58.175.193.140
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Clan Forces are still an enemy force so ….
why, following the end of Operation Bulldog and Operation Serpent was there no thought to establishing a SLDF navy within the periphery as a forward patrol force and as an early warning detection force established against any second clan wave?
The writers should have finished off the Clan arc of the story as it stands now …. It is very disappointing …
The Clan War – could anyone written anything more Ludacris?
Reducing all the IS forces so they could not retaliate as they should have – put them back to their original sizes … would be a good first step …
Stand up fight did not work – so go straight to insurgent fighting …
FS / RR / DC form a united front against their mutual enemy
Reestablishment of the Star League (etc.)
The use of insurgent commandos to invade and assassinate Clan personnel on newly clan held worlds;
Make sure there are hidden forces and traps on all worlds within the clans advance corridor …
creation of an anti-elemental sniper rifle / armour penetrating rounds
IS Forces begin a program of engineering their own Omni Mechs / Omni fighters / elementals
Following Turtle Bay – DC use Kamikaze with nukes on all Clan Warships
IS begin retrofitting dropships into PT Vessels – Nuclear Ordnance / Mines and anti-warship missiles
Soon Thereafter FC starts using Nukes on also against clan warships – together with a new tactic – all IS aerospace fighters are to target Clan Jump-ship’s engines and sails to make them non-operational (slow their progress into the IS)
IS begin to manufacture small warships to complement their PT Dropship Vessels
Clans forward momentum is slowly contained
Personnel which have been either captured and/or deserters from the Clans together with their technology begin to be integrated into the IS forces
Establishment of IS Psi-ops teams to break Clan “true born” from their artificially created masters begins.
Establishment of IS Navy – they begin to invade the Periphery and deep periphery – stop all supply runs to Clan Forces / Capture all Clan supply and personnel and return to the IS with these forces / find their communication relay to Clan Space and cut it.
without communication to to Clan Space they are now effectively on their own – re-supplies / ammo / personnel begin to dwindle to alarming levels - Over time and many battles the remaining first Clan Invasion force becomes contained within the deep periphery
Operation Serpent is dispatched to attack the clan home world’s Capitol – SM
The final Stand of the IS Clans due to operation Bulldog
IS Forces begin to scour all Periphery and deep periphery worlds for hidden Clan bases
Operation Serpent reaches Clan Space and invades SM and other worlds – their objective – cause as much damage as possible – obtain as much technology as possible – factories data cores etc and return this to the IS with this booty!
Unexpectedly Operation Serpent fleet is aided by the Clan’s Dark Caste (their aims is to free all the people from their Eugenic Overlords and return the Clans to their SLDF Origin)
Due to Overwhelming force Operation Serpent and the Dark Caste retreat to their hidden bases …
As this was going on a second IS Invasion fleet is being assembled
A single/ small contingent of Operation Serpent Jumpship(s) is/are dispatched to warn the IS together with a coppy of all the Clans scientific / technical /medical etc knowledge on data cores.
A new front line is established within many uninhabited systems as both sides attempt to penetrate the others defensive line (Nt. IS forces now contain the WOB Jihad forces to deal with the clans)
Operation Serpent / Clan Dark Caste begin raids within the Clan space – freeing civilians gaining more troops – the resistance begins to expand
We now have two major war zones within deep space – within multiple systems each attempting to destroy the other thus either gaining access to the IS or to Clan Space.
Operation Serpent / Clan Dark decide to attack the Clan force in the rear (those attacking the IS) whilst simultaneously the IS forces attack – result Clan forces neutralised (about this time the IS is now at the same technologically level as that of the Clans)
The now combined IS / Operation Serpent / Clan Dark Caste force return to clan space and begin a war of liberating Clan space from their Eugenic Overlords.
After many years of war they succeed – Eugenics becomes outlawed etc
The new Clans returns to their SLDF roots an join with there is compatriots as members of the new SLDF
Whilst this was occurring in deep / clan space what was happening in the IS?
Members Of the new Star League included – FC – DC – FWL – RR - Andurien / Canopus Alliance – Comstar – SIC (Nt. CC were destroyed during the 3039 War)
Star Lord position is mainly ceremonial – SLDF cannot be utilized within the IS (unless against an external threat) – The 4 year position of First Lord of the Star League (goes through an order 1stDC, 2nd FC 3rd FWL 4th RR 5th DofA / MC 6th SIC 7th Comstar 8th any new member etc) – hence no voting required everyone has their position and gets a turn at it;
Political Intrigue to be included in the overall story?
- Whilst Victor is away Katherine takes over the FC – declaring herself as First Princess
- Sun-Tzu attempts a coup within SIC – stopped by his sister Kalie
- Sun-Tzu attempts to resurrect the CC – ultimately hunted down and killed before he is able to succeed
- Omika Kurita escapes the DC (pursued by the Black Dragon Society) and goes to be with Victor on the Front Lines when it becomes known she is pregnant with Victor’s child.
- War between DC and Victors forces over Omika and their child?
- Border raids still occur
- DofA and MC are involved in a war with TC
- New States are established within the Deep Periphery along the road to the Clan Home Worlds – Sponsored by DC, FC, FWL etc (Nt: these FC worlds are controlled by Victor not Kathrine!)
- Other issues?
- Katherine attempts to gain the title First Lord in perpetuity? When it comes back for the FC turn for the second time?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/10/18 10:59 PM
66.74.61.223
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First. The teachings of the clans was such that there was no need in their minds that the IS would offer more resistance to their trained military then the civilians on the home world would. The concept of long battles needed massive supplies was not done in a couple hundred years. Part of the problem with the Trials of possession and such.
The Trial of Refusal shown the clans did have supply depots through the route and kept if from all the others as well.
The IS was never one entity, so saying they could shift forces around to deal with the clans during the time frame they had very little clue on they were more then a good raid, with units found in an advanced depot is a bit off. As well as the training center for new warriors? I would suggest rereading how the clans trained their people. This suggests the entire history of the game isn't as understood as it needs to be. The clans make their warriors thru sibcos, not let people sign up and learn. Only those genetically better become warriors. This thinking is why they even fought for the right to invade. Unless the history of this is changed, there is no way, other then isorla or bondsmen, are you going to replace your losses in the IS. And even then, the bondsmen have to prove they are capable of it.
Sending in small teams would have done more to enrage the clans into more acts like Turtle Bay. It was extreme, but the clans would brutalize the populace of any commando style strikes against them. It is the brainwashing of their ways that would make this acceptable to them. Like it or not, that is a fact in the history of the clans. The need for replacement parts is the same thing. Though they were learning as they hit the stronger forces in the IS.
Command circuit. The quickest way to get the clans to your capital, by boarding the jumpships going there with elementals, then loading up with dropships. I like that one.
Depleted uranium is supposed to be the main shots for acs as well as any sort of armor piercing shots. To my knowledge, most military units would be using this to begin with.
Again, the fact the IS isn't one big happy family seems to be missing. The pirates were generally happy the IS was getting pounded by the clans. It was their dream to do it, but since they couldn't, the clans were the next best thing.
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ghostrider
06/10/18 11:20 PM
66.74.61.223
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The lack of jumpships and warships would prevent the IS from searching the Periphery and deep periphery for supply dumps. And remember. The clans removed jump information of ships traveling to and from the home worlds in order for those ships to get the next portion of the jump circuit. And that didn't stop the clans from having warships around some of the more exposed bases. Jump ship destruction was not part of the clans, though waste was. Boarding them so the IS would not have them was very preferable.
Doubt Susie Ryan would help the IS. Also the issue with clan tech in this time was the lack of anyone that could work on them, including maintenance. OR did they change this in the newer books?
Using nukes on the clans, yet suggesting it would never be done in another thread? Might be violating one of the rules here, so may get a ban.
Now the issues of all the new units. Where are they coming from? The warships in particular is a good question.
Using another alt history to further this one isn't good.
The Smoke Jaguars destruction was after the truce, so that is future time, not this current time.
As it was said in another thread, jumpships clear the area they are jumping into of debris such as mines, as well as trying to cover millions of square kilometers of space makes it impractical. Which is a change in the real history of the clans leaving things for any pursuers to deal with when the left. Explorer corps finds this out the hard way.
Some of the suggestions are assumed knowledge. The IS had NO way of knowing what happened to the clans. Any counter invasion may well have been set up by the clans, and they are waiting to eliminate any assets sent in to do such a thing. No intel as comstar was blocking it. And the black boxes were not already on world.
Destroying your own worlds for kill boxes? Scorched earth tactics?
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ghostrider
06/10/18 11:47 PM
66.74.61.223
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Psi-ops? Normally refers to psionic operatives. For those of us that don't know the term, would you elaborate?
The idea of a civil are in the clans from a short time frame is really showing the clan thoughts are not understood. There is no revolts in the clan worlds as the military holds the weapons and will use them to put down the dishonorable few that even try to stand up to them. This is not the IS where civil disobedience it tolerated.
The Arc Royal Cordon was made to remove a chunk of space from Katherine Steiner during the civil war era. It prevented use of the forces there as well as allowed them to stay out of the squabble for a while as they protected the LC portion from the clans.
If Victor did marry Isis, wouldn't he give the FWL access to the black boxes?
The history and the ways the entire governments of the IS and clans seems to be missing facts in this. Sending out forces in enmasse means trusting the others will not hit you, yet the entire history of the IS says it will happen. The lack of intel would make this even less likely, as you could send in your forces, only to find out the clans and their double jumping jumpships do not require much of a strong front line. Reinforcements would take care of any worlds that fell to the invasion as well as giving the clans access to rear, underdefended worlds and wide open paths to some of the more well known factories.
Number calculations is fine for some, but not for the masses that have to deal with the fall out. Alessandro Steiner ring a bell?
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wolf_lord_30
06/10/18 11:53 PM
74.214.54.153
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If you can get your hands on it, The Clans: Warriors of Kerensky has some very good information it it on how the Clans act and do what they do. These touch on several of the points you mentioned.
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Requiem
06/11/18 04:17 AM
58.175.193.140
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With no supply depots how can you wage a war when it takes half a year to get there – resupply via dropship? The amount of dropships required to undertake such a venture would have been massive and illogical – look at D Day – the planning that went into that one operation alone …… again how do you get replacement personnel, ‘mechs , ammo, spare parts etc. etc.
As for sibcos … they also allowed freeborn to be trained and undertake the trials …
This shows the writers were just writing for the sake of writing and not understanding the mechanics behind the scenes that are required to keep a military going – very poor understanding led to very poor stories that were written for an audience to accept it upon face value only … any attempt at understanding will lead you to question the stupidity of it all.
As for sending in small teams that would enrage the clans – isn’t this the point? – when you look at how they fight how they conduct themselves – they have none, none whatsoever a security force to guard their bases – the number of elementals brought with them are not enough – this is a failing that any commander would exploit – commando raids would be devastating as they have no clue whatsoever as to how to deal with it.
Yes they will have a temper tantrum and destroy cities / people like the good little Nazis they are – but the people would they not stand up and resist as all of their forbearers have done so in the past? Atrocities require atrocities as a response for this is the language that they can only understand - for if you go down this path then expect it in return – thus should not have the clan war been more like that of the Jihad war?
As for my anti-elemental rifle … all throughout history someone builds a better sword to that of a better shield then a sword destroys that shield then another and another … humanity is littered with one weapon system overcoming another to even the playing field … so therefore it is not a stretch of the imagination the IS would look to find a weapon that could kill an elemental at distance – as up close this becomes too difficult – hence the answer a sniper rifle that can penetrate their amour and kill them dead with one shot … not putting this in again shows the writers inability to understand military doctrine and thinking ….
Yes the IS is not one big happy family …. However history is littered with enemies coming together to destroy a common threat … and in this case the treat is the clans … they can and they would put aside their common hate to destroy the Clans. This would be achieved in reforming the Star League and the SLDF.
No the lack of Jump-ships would not preclude a search into the periphery – there are no records whatsoever as to the size of any IS navy except when Warships are being produced – so there is no evidence to say they couldn’t do it
First start with refurbished dropships that are turned into spy craft (large electronic surveillance to detect any clan base within system) then for armament a defence against warships – hence nukes.
Then you give them an attack force (to kill any security force) and then add a transport force to take any salvage back to the IS – all you need is about 10-20 teams of these small raider forces each from the FC and the DC – so be real they can do this not a problem! They would also have ex-pirates who would jump at the change to get out a pirate the clans ... either as refugees from the clan invasion or a prisoners (convicts) ....
As for Susie Ryan, her home, her family, everything she has ever worked for is gone and by the clans … when given the chance of possessing a 'letter of mark' and that of the chance for payback ….. she would take it in a heartbeat as she lives for vengeance it is the air she breaths.
Where is written that , “jumpships clear the area they are jumping into of debris such as mines?” – book and page no please? ….
The Black boxes would have been with every FC unit and on every FC world by 3050 – the only-thing stopping it would have been cost – as there is no way Hanse would leave the FC vulnerable to another Comstar interdiction (another hole in the original writings)
Psi-Ops – When using Psychology to destabilize an enemy militarily mentally – for me it was devising a way to start a civil war between those of eugenics and free born … rigid cast system .. no family … no freedom …. Those who hate their life because I was not born in an iron container … and born as a warrior … so how do you deprogram a clan person and get them actively hating their overlord? This is the task I gave them and yes you can bet they came up with a way to destabilize the clan’s society and with enough heat an pressure you will get a civil war.
Errrr. …. Totalitarian state …. they hold all the weapons hence all the civilians will not rise up ….. sorry but no …. Basic human nature here, there have always, no matter which society or in which time you point out, there have always been those that go against the norm and the rules …. Can anyone believe that an entire society has been so completely brainwashed into thinking that this is the best that it will ever be so I may as well just go along with it …. For if I don’t they will do this and that to me …. Really? … really? …. The desire for freedom is in us all it cannot be extinguished …. There would be a resistance to clan rule and that of being born through eugenics gives them the right to rule and tell us free born what to do! No, I cannot believe that and will not … the human spirit to dictate our own fate is stronger than that …. Thus the only question that can be asked is how many and how well organized would they be? For me the resistance is strong and is well armed just waiting for the chance to strike back … if others want to think of them as loners walking around just sulking … that is their choice.
As for a totalitarian reshine … my bet is when a population who venerates the kerenskie’s near to godhood is told the truth .. some may say no this is all lies, but others will question and others will recognise it for the truth … for once the seed of doubt is planted … more converts to the resistance. And once the warriors start purges (for this is all the know what to do) … there will be little left to do but to fight back ….. or to die as lambs to the slaughter.
Victor / Isis marriage – at that time neither of them were a head of any state so how could they give anything to the other’s state?
So, how does the process of concentrated weakness come into it? You have an offensive and defensive team and you attack what you can and defend what you can … it is just a matter of material available to achieve the goal.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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wolf_lord_30
06/11/18 08:06 AM
74.214.54.153
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Quote:
With no supply depots how can you wage a war when it takes half a year to get there – resupply via dropship? The amount of dropships required to undertake such a venture would have been massive and illogical – look at D Day – the planning that went into that one operation alone …… again how do you get replacement personnel, ‘mechs , ammo, spare parts etc. etc.
As for sibcos … they also allowed freeborn to be trained and undertake the trials …
This shows the writers were just writing for the sake of writing and not understanding the mechanics behind the scenes that are required to keep a military going – very poor understanding led to very poor stories that were written for an audience to accept it upon face value only … any attempt at understanding will lead you to question the stupidity of it all.
As for sending in small teams that would enrage the clans – isn’t this the point? – when you look at how they fight how they conduct themselves – they have none, none whatsoever a security force to guard their bases – the number of elementals brought with them are not enough – this is a failing that any commander would exploit – commando raids would be devastating as they have no clue whatsoever as to how to deal with it.
Yes they will have a temper tantrum and destroy cities / people like the good little Nazis they are – but the people would they not stand up and resist as all of their forbearers have done so in the past? Atrocities require atrocities as a response for this is the language that they can only understand - for if you go down this path then expect it in return – thus should not have the clan war been more like that of the Jihad war?
The invasion was thought to be over so quick, some of the Clans, like Smoke Jaguar did not believe they needed fresh supply lines. Wolf was more successful due in part to establishing a supply line to bring up fresh equipment. Also, the ones with better relationships with the merchant and scientist castes had an easier time with getting supplies and equipment. This again, hurt Smoke Jaguar especially.
Sibkos were harsh training environments and usually even worse for freeborns. They took the ones with natural abilities and honed them into deadly warriors. About only 4 or 5 out of a whole company of sibling would make it to their trial. It was less for freeborns, for the most part, especially depending on the Clan. And most of them would be assigned to garrison duty and second line mechs. The thing about the Clans, is they had really small numbers in terms of warriors. .01% is the warrior caste. But with their sibkos, they always had a new generation training, so it would not take years upon years to rebuild. The quality of mechwarriors was much more important than the quantity.
Clans have security forces. They are just not comprised of front line warriors or equipment. But even second line mechs are more than a match for most Inner Sphere pilots. The Smoke Jaguars had a hard time with insurrectionists. They bombarded a whole world once, even their own Khan and Jade Falcons condemned this act. It also contributed to their subsequent ouster of the Inner Sphere. Jade Falcons were forced to bring in Steel Viper and give them worlds in order to keep some of the planets they conquered secure and firmly in clan grasp. Nova Cats did the same with the Jaguars. Jade Falcon may have been harsh, but they were fair to their lower castes, and in the Inner Sphere, as long as they weren't challenged, they allowed day to day life to continue. In many places, citizens of a world could hardly tell that the ruling class had changed hands.
The Clans did not like to waste valuable materials and resources. Yes, they could raze whole cities and planets, but that was not the intent of the invasion. The purpose was to claim what they believed was rightfully theirs, and many, especially among the civilian castes believed that the Inner Sphere was an Eden compared to their homeworlds. Enraging Clans could result in massive destruction, but often times it just meant no mercy was given when they'd find the culprits of their hatred. Honor rules would be suspended to deal with the dezgra. Destroying whole cities to get at something was not an ordinary way of the warriors. Even if mad. Insurgents would annoy them and commando raids to. But they could be stopped. The Ghost Bears eventually stopped the guerilla warfare that the FRR was doing. It was frustrating to them that the enemy would not engage in a true fight, but they dealt with it. So no, commando raids would not be unstoppable and the Clans did have resources and the ability to deal with it, as well as garrisons.
Comparing the Clans to Nazis is way off base. They were nothing like them. And each clan ruled themselves differently than the next. So some, like the Jaguars, were harsh in their dealings with the lower castes. This cost them existing as a Clan too. Others, like Wolf, Coyote and Diamond Shark, allowed a lot of freedom between merchants and scientists to give their clan an edge. Ghost Bear was more open to the idea of family and sticking together. They were very fair in dealings with their caste system. Warriors were always at the top but in a Warrior society, of course they were. That doesn't mean that the other castes didnt have any sort of say in anything. If they were treated too harshly or ignored or executed, they would go along with what they had to, but deal in a Clan black market, or go to the dark caste, or even in some circumstances, be rescued by a Clan that saw what was going on and fight a trial for them. A happy caste that was treated fairly was more productive and helped the Clan out overall.
The Clans were molded after various ancient societies, like the Mongol horde, the 19th Century Chinese government, and others. This was done to break down the lines of nationality. Once the Clans had settled, before they were the Clans, problems started up again. Factions were drawn up based on societal and nationalistic lines. The whole concept the Clans was to do away with that, so the people would be loyal to their Clan, their Khan and the ilKhan.
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ghostrider
06/11/18 01:18 PM
66.74.61.223
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Another point to this is once they had so many issues with the IS performing the dezgra feats, they would open up the entire clans to invade the IS. Not the original 4, then add in the other 2. But the Steel Vipers came in to the Falcons area, not the ghost bears. The Falcons chased them out after a while, and fought several trials of possession for worlds to avoid the Vipers getting them.
The way clans treated the population of the worlds they took, seemed to mirror the Warden/Crusader thinking. I would also think the Dragoons reports tempered some of those very thoughts.
Now it is correct that there has not been a printed number of jumpships in the IS. Yet to even move troops around, it was always suggested there were not enough to do so properly and still keep commerce running right. The FS was destroying their economy in the 4th war to destroy the CC. So with all this, it is possible, though highly unlikely, they might have a few to spare.
Comstar did search for things, and even when they finally turned against the clans, did not have this information.
The concentrated weakness came in when you suggested the IS send everything to the clan borders. The leaders were not all knowing of what they faced. Again. Knowledge of the player verses in game intel comes into play.
And with this, the lack of knowing the clans did have forward depots seems to be missing. They had them. They were not adequate to the task at hand.
The idea of what the populations would do seems a bit biased with supporting things that only works with the alt timelines.
The basis for what they would or wouldn't do is based on the past. Human nature being what it is, someone in a hostile area that is known to kill dissidents, would not be out protesting things. They may stick their necks out in covert strikes, but otherwise would keep to themselves. Best way to keep alive and family safe.
As for the clearing of jump ship targets. Cray had posted about that a while back. As BMR, the original Aerotech, and jumpships and drops ships are the basic limit to my space information, I am relying on that to be truthful.
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wolf_lord_30
06/11/18 01:38 PM
74.214.54.153
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I meant that the Vipers were in Jade Falcon territory. Thanks for pointing that out. I also forgot about Diamond Shark being thrown into the mix as well.
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ghostrider
06/11/18 02:07 PM
66.74.61.223
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Space mines placed too close to a planetary body risk being pulled in by gravitational effects, while those located inside the K-F field generated by incoming JumpShips are automatically destroyed before they have the chance to inflict damage.
Tactical Operations, p. 366, "Space Mines (Space)"
I want to say this is what he was referring to.
It would make sense that destroying things and not removing the debris that would materialize in the ship would be in order, though this counters the whole issue of Kerensky leaving crap in the jump points behind them to discourage pursuit or even following the SLDF at a later time, as Comstar was doing.
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Requiem
06/11/18 06:37 PM
58.175.193.140
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Mines – again with a literal definition thinking of a WWII ship contact mine? …. Where there is an engineer there is a way forward – so if the mine is within the K-K Field generated by an incoming Jumpship they are automatically destroyed before they have the chance to inflict damage - OK.
But if they are not within the K-F Filed and are resistant to the stress-wave a Jump causes in the surrounding space (what approx 27Km only?) and it can act like the old Space mines ie. they can detect a ship and move under their own power and may also include stealth amour making it almost impossible to detect after a jump – but that does not really matter considering the range they have to kill a ship and their crew.
Have a read of the webpage entitled Atomic Weapons – re: atomic weapons in space and the following web page
https://worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/...rder-to-survive
“A one megaton Enhanced-Radiation warhead (AKA "neutron bomb") will deliver a threshold fatal neutron dose to an unshielded human at 300 km”
“The survivability range of nuclear bombs scales (roughly) linearly with bomb yield and as the inverse square of distance between bomb and victim. Meaning a 1 mton bomb would be borderline survivable at a range of ~900 km due to X-ray flux”
Keep reading re NASA's report on Nuclear Weapon Effects in Space.
So how far does a K-F Field expand to? So all I need to be is within say 100miles depending upon the warhead and yield and adios muchacho.
So mines ARE viable weapons in space a K-F filed does not expand out that far but a nuke (depending upon its warhead) even with a warship with heavy shielding will be able to it kill when within their range at a max of approx. 100miles (again depending upon type and yield)!
But if you say their shielding will stop the Neutrino / X-ray Flux, thus you need to be within the main blast to takeout a ship – OK then let us consider using a 50mt Tsar or even the 100mt warhead. These would be able to kill the skip with a blast radius starting at 30Km and going outwards from there – so still mines are a viable weapon against warships you just need them to get within range (that of 30Km / 40Km approx.) and then explode at this range, beyond that of a K-F Filed entry field or their entry shock wave, for a nuke to be very lethal to a warship.
Your thoughts?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
06/11/18 07:22 PM
58.175.193.140
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Supplies –
Quote: “Smoke Jaguar did not believe they needed fresh supply lines”
The Smoke Jaguars entered the IS with 8 Clusters (40 Trinaries) 4 Warships; 38 Jumpships
38 Jumpships only!
How many tons of food / ammunition / spare parts etc would you need to store in their holds to conduct the invasion?
Remember you need food/water for a minimum of 6-7 months for everyone to start off with – all crew, ‘Mech pilots, elementals, technicians, medical etc (then they would need to re-supply food from IS stores for everyone?)
After that you can deduct this amount and how much space would be left for ammunition et al.?
Not very much at all would be very accurate figure, if there are no immediate re-supply – then you are expected to conduct military action on what 100 plus worlds to reach terra – still no re-supply because it will be over sooooo quickly?
Plus we don’t expect any real casualties during the invasion – so we don’t need any replacement pilots etc.
What were they expecting as their force depletion rate calculation would be – near nil? Get real …
So what do we learn from this – The Smoke Jaguars ….
Didn’t need food for six months to get to the IS as all the space was need for ammo spare parts etc.
Had enough ammo to fight on 100 worlds plus to get to the IS world of Terra 1st
Didn’t need replacement personnel as no one would die in combat because the IS were so backwards etc.
So once they got here – how long before they needed a resupply ammo ? – how long before they experienced massive pilot shortage because they were assassinated / poisoned / captured / killed in combat
How long before the IS began to targeted their jumpships making them inoperable – do they even have space parts for a Jumpship engine?
Be real this is ridiculous …. The amount of supplies required to keep an army in the filed on food alone would be a very high tonnage amount then when you factor in ammunition spare parts space mechs etc they do not have the space without a re-supply mission
And with a supply fleet the IS has a chance to capture / destroy this? Thus depleting their ability to continue to fight …
Also how often will you need this fleet to come to the IS (remember it takes 6 mnths plus just to get to the IS) – thus realistically every two months every clan would need a resupply fleet sent just to keep them in the field with everything they need – if you consider this a good way to conduct an invasion can I laugh now?
No realistically, they needed forward resupply depots within the periphery – these should have been raided by IS forces during the war – again we have writers writing a story that is expected to be accepted on face value ….. re-write please because this does not make any sense whatsoever!!!!!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
06/11/18 07:38 PM
58.175.193.140
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The Clan’s
Member of a totalitarian government……..yes
Advocates territorial expansion ………….yes
Anti-IS (type of people)...…………………yes
Engages in Eugenics (race) – supremacy …yes
Has been involved in mass purges of civilians ……yes
Sometimes Offensive. a person who is fanatically dedicated to or seeks to regulate a specified activity, practice, etc. ……yes
Remind you of anyone? (have a look at the definition?) …. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck … the in all probability it is a duck!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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wolf_lord_30
06/11/18 11:06 PM
74.214.54.153
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Quote:
Supplies –
Quote: “Smoke Jaguar did not believe they needed fresh supply lines”
The Smoke Jaguars entered the IS with 8 Clusters (40 Trinaries) 4 Warships; 38 Jumpships
38 Jumpships only!
How many tons of food / ammunition / spare parts etc would you need to store in their holds to conduct the invasion?
Remember you need food/water for a minimum of 6-7 months for everyone to start off with – all crew, ‘Mech pilots, elementals, technicians, medical etc (then they would need to re-supply food from IS stores for everyone?)
After that you can deduct this amount and how much space would be left for ammunition et al.?
Not very much at all would be very accurate figure, if there are no immediate re-supply – then you are expected to conduct military action on what 100 plus worlds to reach terra – still no re-supply because it will be over sooooo quickly?
Plus we don’t expect any real casualties during the invasion – so we don’t need any replacement pilots etc.
What were they expecting as their force depletion rate calculation would be – near nil? Get real …
So what do we learn from this – The Smoke Jaguars ….
Didn’t need food for six months to get to the IS as all the space was need for ammo spare parts etc.
Had enough ammo to fight on 100 worlds plus to get to the IS world of Terra 1st
Didn’t need replacement personnel as no one would die in combat because the IS were so backwards etc.
So once they got here – how long before they needed a resupply ammo ? – how long before they experienced massive pilot shortage because they were assassinated / poisoned / captured / killed in combat
How long before the IS began to targeted their jumpships making them inoperable – do they even have space parts for a Jumpship engine?
Be real this is ridiculous …. The amount of supplies required to keep an army in the filed on food alone would be a very high tonnage amount then when you factor in ammunition spare parts space mechs etc they do not have the space without a re-supply mission
And with a supply fleet the IS has a chance to capture / destroy this? Thus depleting their ability to continue to fight …
Also how often will you need this fleet to come to the IS (remember it takes 6 mnths plus just to get to the IS) – thus realistically every two months every clan would need a resupply fleet sent just to keep them in the field with everything they need – if you consider this a good way to conduct an invasion can I laugh now?
No realistically, they needed forward resupply depots within the periphery – these should have been raided by IS forces during the war – again we have writers writing a story that is expected to be accepted on face value ….. re-write please because this does not make any sense whatsoever!!!!!
First of all, you do realize that the invasion was planned in waves, right? So stop with the thinking that the Clans were going to go all the way to Terra without resupplying. Secondly, The Jaguars set themselves up to fail. That is what I was getting at. They did not plan ahead. But, it is stated that the Clans did make Periphery worlds as staging posts, meaning they would have had some surplus, a base of operations and more of a strategy. What, with the Clans rolling all opposition, makes you believe that the Inner Sphere could mount a successful attack on Clan bases? Deep raids like that just don't happen much, if memory serves, and are not that successful. A deep raid against the Clans and their superior aerospace force and warships would not end well.
Also, the Clans were moving fast. They didn't need whole clusters to take over a world. All they needed was a trinary or two for a lot of worlds. They bid down their forces for the most honor, but this would preserve a large part of their fighting force.
Lastly, you really need to try to take a step back from all of this and complaining about the authors messing up. It is a sci fi game. Sometimes, realism gets suspended so a story can move forward. Authors might not think of everything. They might not want to go over the tedium of what it really takes to do a massive invasion. They probably figured all of those jumpships and dropships and warships would have enough storage space for food and equipment.
And to address your last post about the Clans. It doesn't seem like you've really done much research on them. The Clans: Warriors of Kerensky, The Invading Clans, FM: Wardens, FM: Crusaders, Wars of Reaving, Jade Falcon and Wolf sourcebooks, Operation Klondike, The Golden Century. Lots of books just dedicated to the Clans. They are good reads and have lots of good information. From what I have read on your posts, you have read only a little bit on the Clans, and then based your opinions on that. Maybe you should try to do that before you condemn them for being so horrible.
Sometimes, some of the information isn't always clear and it muddies the water. Individualism versus Clan identity. Honor of the duel versus large scale engagements. It's a pull of what the Clan stands for going against their human nature. You seem to forget, they are still human. They have foreign ideals and odd ways of looking at things, but they are still very human. The Wolves and Ghost Bears and Star Adders are a lot different than Smoke Jaguars and Jade Falcons and Ice Hellions. Trying to lump them all together to prove a point, trying to compare them to Nazis is more than misplaced. I'm not even the biggest fan of the Clans, but they fascinate me with their alien ways. And the fact I cannot play them very good. I am an aggressive player and the Clans rushing into medium to short range against a numerically superior foe, is not great, especially when I try to abide by one target per 'mech and no physical attacks, no getting behind them. And your points could be applied to almost any Inner Sphere house.
Also, the Clans didn't hate the Inner Sphere. Some thought they were protecting them from themselves, others were jealous of their worlds, believing they had better lives than they did. Some of them chose to believe they were weak and unfit to rule. Or cowards. Not quite the same as hating them or trying to eradicate them. Again, they were based on the 13th century Mongols, Shogunate Japan, and 20th Century China (not 18th like I misspoke before) which provided the model for Clan society as a whole. And those cultures had brutality, just like any other culture. They dealt with how to handle uprisings, family structure, fostering children as your own, keeping power to only a select few, military might, and so on.
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ghostrider
06/11/18 11:57 PM
66.74.61.223
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Not sure how the game deals with nukes in space outside of the jump ships envelope. It is possible to radiate the entire area into killing all that enter. That makes it useless to all sides. And using nukes contradicts your statement of the CC not using them to defend themselves in another thread.
As the only 38 jumpships is assuming a few things. I would think Monoliths packed with Behemoths or Mammoths would be fine, especially if they form a command chain to and from the home worlds. And from the sounds of it, it did seem like they had specific routes done by the ships, not a continuous one way then the other. Figure 2 weeks without lithium batteries for a round trip. Load/unload during recharge. And as stated, the Jaguars were not the brightest with foresight into the invasion.
Now how much of those food supplies and such were they expecting to liberate while in the innersphere?
The type of warships would determine the military side of what they bring. The cargo on the warships could well have had the spares they thought were needed for their trial of possessions they thought would be the norm. So it was a hole the writers had to avoid the IS from being destroyed that much quicker. Stupid? Yes. Purposeful? Seems that way.
As for numbers, most forget the clan cluster is about 45 mechs. Not the 108 for the IS. So the amount of supplies for the troops is lessened with the smaller units. The number of elementals if much smaller then a company of normal troopers I want to say 75 for a trinary, but probably off.
Lump sum of all clanners being anti IS was completely wrong. The wardens were not so.
There is one thing that I will differ and point out about the clans and how they were supposed to fight. Long range, using superior skills was the key. Medium range? Only if you didn't have weapons for longer range. Only the grand melee was opt to have physical combat as a norm. Or fights that got out of hand. And most fights in a battle were one on one. So that stopped alot of the cheap shots.
One last thing for now. Why are you suggesting the Jaguars were going to take 100+ worlds themselves? There were four clans in the initial invasion. With their thoughts of the IS, they could very well do double jumps and still have plenty of forces to take terra. It was battling other clans that they thought was going to bleed them dry of units. Not the IS.
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wolf_lord_30
06/12/18 12:26 AM
74.214.54.153
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Quote:
There is one thing that I will differ and point out about the clans and how they were supposed to fight. Long range, using superior skills was the key. Medium range? Only if you didn't have weapons for longer range. Only the grand melee was opt to have physical combat as a norm. Or fights that got out of hand. And most fights in a battle were one on one. So that stopped alot of the cheap shots.
I was describing how I play Clans a little too aggresively. I know they have a range advantage, but I like to close in. I don't like backpeddling or dancing around in circles, or even not moving, staying at long range while my opponent struggles to move into range. I like going toe to toe. And that is a very bad idea when they outnumber you three to one. And I really miss physical combat. I try to play them like I think they would actually fight, and I find it difficult to a lot of times.
Unfortunately, the one on one fight as all clans abiding by is kind of a misconception. Some uphold it very strictly, like the Jade Falcons. A large battle will break down to individual duels. But... and this is where I start to get confused, it is mentioned how sometimes another Clan will fight with zellbrigen a lot more loosely. They mention flanking maneuvers and other such stuff and not giving up the advantage of numbers. Things that wouldn't happen if it was just dueling. And then it flops around saying how sometimes a commander will fight the champion of the other side as a way for glory, honor and a quick win. It is frowned upon when lost and sometimes even when won, but then again, how smart it was. Oh, but if this commander was shot and killed then all bets were off and they fought ferociously, tearing apart their foes. There are several instances like this. And it does get a little confusing. I will freely admit that.
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ghostrider
06/12/18 01:49 AM
66.74.61.223
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The one on one does allow flanking maneuvers, as once the enemy is freed up, you just fire on them. So it isn't as honorable as they want it to sound. And using a Dire Wolf to take out a Firemoth isn't what I would consider honorable. Yeah hitting it is the issue.
Also, it isn't always done with single combat. Just preferred.
But I got back on as more thoughts came up on this thread. First off, the I think the CC is more of the horrible hate mongers of the universe then even the worse crusaders were. Or so the novels seem to hint at. It all seems to depict the CC as those in power do what ever they want to those out of power.
Now about the clans and their populace. The problem with trying propaganda with them is 250+ years of military teachings with NO alternative narrative available. There were NO such thing as a free society for them to be envious of. Only other clans. So thinking a revolt would be easy to accomplish misses this completely. Nothing in their lives except the dark caste, would be available to show freedom in any form. Other then picking in the limited choices you have given to you.
I think you might take offense in this, but the context of the 38 jumpships made me think it was suggested those were scouts carrying Clan Leopards. I don't know why.
And this also doesn't seem to think the Diamond Sharks did not have ships ready to sell supplies to the others, even though they were not part of the invasion until later.
It was said the exodus traveled for a year before finding the home worlds, yet the did alot of scouting of systems while doing so. It was probably asked before, but I will ask again. Was that a full year straight out as fast as you can jump? Or is the clan worlds closer as they zig zagged while traveling?
This would affect the time it takes to get there and back.
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wolf_lord_30
06/12/18 02:15 AM
74.214.54.153
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I have my book right here so I can answer the travel question for you at least.
February 3049 advance clan units depart for IS
August 3049 First contact between advance Clan units and Periphery forces.
I think that it is easy to get hung up on the word free. It is true that most people couldn't choose what they did, but that didn't mean quality of life was bad. Certain Clans treated the lower castes better than others. Some were allowed more freedoms, more autonomy, even differing levels of education (I want to say. Don't quote me on the last one). And they were given work credits to eliminate the need for money, and thus further keeping the castes dependent on the Clan, but again, this doesn't mean that they didn't have a good way of life. It was just looked down on because of being a militaristic society. The better the laborer caste and technician caste were treated, the more output and higher morale and less stalling they would give the warriors. Merchants worked and traded better with other Clans if they were treated fairly. If not, they wouldn't acquire materials necessary for the warriors and then trials had to be fought if the warriors really needed whatever it was.
So yeah, while they weren't free, and that was the only way of life they knew, it was still a symbiotic relationship between the different castes. Even the dark caste had their place. A place for misfits to go to, for malcontents, for those who failed and couldn't integrate into a lower caste. And it provided training for the warriors to go pirate hunting if they ever got too unruly.
I don't know if I agree with the CC being the worst one. They did pull some pretty crazy stunts, but I do remember that the DC suppressed their population a lot, and murdered mercenary families.
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Requiem
06/12/18 07:23 AM
58.175.193.140
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First you do realize the entire writing of the Invasion is complete BS? Read the invasion book – is the same battle over and over there if no flexibility no change in tactics whatsoever …. (only in rare occasions did it change) ….. as a leader / tactician if you do the same thing over and over expecting a change in the results and not getting a change in results, what can think of them … possibly a WW1 General?
My point is the writing is completely and utterly wrong, why is that what is written is considered absolute and factual? … can anyone explain this?
As for saying it is difficult to mount a periphery campaign – then how did the North-wind Highlanders do it and how did the Kell Hounds do it – Phelan getting captured ring a bell or two?
This is my point …. If it can be done by mercenaries then it can be done by the main armies and thus should have been written in … as an army they should have raided the enemy for advanced weapons systems within the periphery and the deep periphery. Not including this is so wrong on so many levels ….. go-on explain why they couldn’t do it?
Clans have superior aerospace – have a look again
Clan Wolf –582 fighters; Jade Falcon –584 fighters
FS RCT fields a full Regimental Wing – 60 Fighters each / Regiment + in addition to that there are also Naval wings of fighters – (Pg. 23 Field Manual Federated Suns).
How easy would it be to pull 6 Regimental wings together and put them in advance of the Clan assault where they are attacking what 4-5 worlds each wave on average? Therefore they are down to what 100 fighters each – they may be good but with 5 to one odds they are not that good – also if you send half against the fighters while the other half attack their Jump-ships? What if we had the DC doing this with Kamikaze and small nukes? How long will the clans survive then? – let me guess, the books never wrote that so it could never happen ……
As for the warships …. Again … nuke them! … as stated in previous writings they are too dangerous thus we must invade the DC and not the CC ….. if they are that dangerous why not just remove them from the board?
As for moving fast … again this is why the IS would use any means possible to slow their assault … thus attacking their transport (Jump-ships) would not be out of the norm …. Slow them down … prepare forces in their advance …. Attack their rear ….insert commandos kill squads …. Attack their supply lines … show me general who would not do this – they would soon be on charges of dereliction of duty / cowardice in the face of the enemy - put them against the wall!
QUOTE: “Lastly, you really need to try to take a step back from all of this and complaining about the authors messing up. It is a sci fi game. Sometimes, realism gets suspended so a story can move forward”.
Again …. Defender of the Status Quo … all the best writers spend vast amount of time getting it right …. Pulp writers (Hacks) … should be shown the error of their ways … how do you expect them to get better as writers? Again this is stating we all should just go along with whatever is written no matter what … sorry but I can let it go when such a huge hole is created by poor writing and being lax on due diligence / fact checking. Isn’t this why I created this discussion – why the writing was so bad and perhaps what should happened?
My lack of research on the Clans? I can say the same, how’s the research going on “Ducks”? – First look at The psychological paper, book and film entitled ‘The Wave’. Then look at a couple dozen of the Nat. Geo Docos on all their areas. Then read a couple of the Books of the subject – once finished – Have a real good look at Smoke Jaguars first – I still find a “duck” (Turtle Bay and the death of the old man there? – Russia WWII?) – if they are not “a duck” then what would you describe them as? Fascist … yes? But then which one? What about the Sibkos (H. Youth) – Eugenics (Arianism) – Totalitarian Government and How they treat their lower castes? (you work for the state and do what we tell you to do) – the three levels – the leader the military and the state nothing else matters? Etc etc. there are too many similarities not to call them “Ducks” …. And then what about all the other Clans … are they just different shades of “Ducks”? as for being human – “ducks” were also human and look at what they did …. No Clan Wolverine were the only ones to see the truth and the only ones with the balls to act …
QUOTE: they were based on the 13th century Mongols, Shogunate Japan, and 20th Century China ….
Sorry No, Mongols – freedom of religion, nomadic etc? Shoganate (which period – edo?) where are the arts, literature, philosophy? 20th Cent China (early, Mid or late 20th Cent?) – how can you pick and choose from these and say you have a harmonious culture it is like adding oil to water …. How can anyone say the Clans are multicultural in origin?
QUOTE: And using nukes contradicts your statement of the CC not using them to defend themselves in another thread.
OK … the CC can use them! However we are talking about two distinct periods of time with two radically different people / cultures / values – so my question still remains would they (CC)? And what would be the ramifications down through the ages from one generation to the next if the CC did use them? (my view – your view the two will never agree on this…. Yes)
Supply runs … two weeks …. Really?
So what about the time it took the IS Clan Spy to get home to the clan worlds then return to the IS and give them the road (map) to the Pentagon Worlds? …. Thus the invasion of Huntress was achievable…….that took a little bit longer than two weeks didn’t it?
QUOTE: “Lump sum of all clanners being anti IS was completely wrong. The wardens were not so”.
Then can I ask why even the wardens had re-education camps? (Battletech Comic) they loved the IS so much they invaded the IS and caused death and destruction on what level? …. Let me guess they had honour and bid forces away to minimise damage … again this is BS writing…. Sorry can’t agree, then what happened next when worlds were given over to their new overlords who had no experience at running worlds …. Plague on one world by not faming the medicine required to stave of the plague comes to mind …. How about the others? Again in reality you would be looking at WWII – Russia / France / China on these worlds post invasion ….. anything else is just poor writing.
QUOTE: “Now about the clans and their populace. The problem with trying propaganda with them is 250+ years of military teachings with NO alternative narrative available. There were NO such thing as a free society for them to be envious of. Only other clans. So thinking a revolt would be easy to accomplish misses this completely. Nothing in their lives except the dark caste, would be available to show freedom in any form. Other then picking in the limited choices you have given to you”.
So this is factual? …. My Degrees that included psychology courses and international business courses would say otherwise when looking at a society as a whole …. When has there ever been a society who has been so completely indoctrinated? …. As for a revolt - as slaves there will come a time to revolt …. I am Spartacus! (The Dark Cast could be way bigger than anyone ever thought and on worlds hidden to all Clan forces? Who is to say this is wrong? …. Let me guess I believe the book and the book says this … and the book is never wrong!)
Though I did not say it would be easy to accomplish … what I did say that with the help of Operation Serpent the dissidents decided to attack…. As to the scale of this attack, this would be up to the writer of the story to work out would it not? …. So how interesting do you want it to get would be a better question (the Rebels in SW as a template / Exo Squad as a template / other template forces?) to ask?
Again I can only say the current writing is sub. Par. … there was no fact checking in spots… the story was ludicrous as it did not take into account variables that should have been included…. No, It would be better for all to just start a rewrite … I know no one will agree with me now … but this in my opinion and I am sticking to it as I believe the fans would appreciate a good re-write once it was in their hands …. And they began to read it …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/12/18 10:48 AM
66.74.61.223
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Lets see. Why do you change how you fight if it is working so well to something that might not win you battles? It does lead to the one trick pony, but when the enemy can't do much against it, then it is the standard routine.
And when you do it with about half of the enemies forces, well, that makes it even more impressive. Especially the win column.
Factual? It is a sci fi game. Facts are not a strong point. As much as suggested, the writers win in any argument against them, as they are making money. I hate the lack of continuity in more then a few things, as well as some of the bs that was thrown in to see what would stick and make even more money.
Saying they are wrong, then insisting another version is the only correct one isn't going to change this.
Might need to reread the thread a bit better. SCOUTING the periphery for bases is difficult. Launching attacks on a KNOWN base is much different. And as suggested before. Finding a warship patrolling the area is why it is dangerous to being with, but even more so, trying to find a couple of worlds among hundreds of worlds, isn't easy. The IS is supposed to lack jumpships, so wasting the few you have looking for bases is not something that will happen. Elementals can take your jumpship with relative ease. And with that, the IS does NOT have HPGs on their ships. Forget the black box. You do need training and skills to use it. Also range is another factor with them.
As am army, the IS was protecting it's lands from an enemy that was less numeric, but far superior to the average joe in the armed forces. And add in their tech superiority, that had far less people doing research then possibly even the CC, says the concept there is out the window. Granted the lack of highly destructive wars helped there.
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ghostrider
06/12/18 11:03 AM
66.74.61.223
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Point in order for the math. Having hundreds of fighters means strategic superiority, but how many of those were facing the clans at one time?
How many of them were so far behind in tech, they died before firing a shot. Tactical superiority allows the clans to destroy what they face, and that isn't including the warships used to destroy any fighter carriers they might have with them. The clan dropships are superior for the most part, though the stupidity of not having weapons in one of the firing arcs on the overlord c was bad.
Again, the lack of understanding, you can not move units on a whim. Just because you are being invaded, does not mean the rest of the IS is going to let you deplete your forces with them and not take advantage. The CC and FWL wanted the FC to bleed. They would eventually spread the enemy out enough for their forces to hit. Yeah, this is the alt were the CC dies. So the FWL would definitely sit back and let the FC and even DC bleed dry. Makes it easier for them to dictate terms with being the new first lord. Oh wait. That would mean Marik didn't give up that idea for himself. As it was said. The clans did not have the forces to deal with hundreds of worlds. Soon they would be too spread out.
Still missing the idea of having all the information at hand, making choices and saying they were wrong when you have all the facts now, not then.
The demand to use nukes means you are looking to start a war that will destroy the entire FC, as the clans will retaliate, and you WILL HAVE to nuke your own worlds as they will bombard them all from orbit. The clans have the option to come in at almost anywhere in the IS. They chose the FRR area following their footsteps back. And using nuke on the clans will start a chain reaction as those in the IS view some leaders worse then the clans. So your 1st war fears will arise. Saying it wouldn't means no comprehension of the human psyche. There are those that would view any house leader using them has lost their minds, and set one off to remove that threat.
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wolf_lord_30
06/12/18 11:14 AM
74.214.54.153
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Quote:
First you do realize the entire writing of the Invasion is complete BS? Read the invasion book – is the same battle over and over there if no flexibility no change in tactics whatsoever …. (only in rare occasions did it change) ….. as a leader / tactician if you do the same thing over and over expecting a change in the results and not getting a change in results, what can think of them … possibly a WW1 General?
My point is the writing is completely and utterly wrong, why is that what is written is considered absolute and factual? … can anyone explain this?
It happened quickly, and it wasn't the same tactics over and over. The IS learned to rely on ambushes and falsifying information by October. The Clans ran through them in the beginning, there was no time for changing tactics as fast as you would like them to.
One more thing to consider is that the Clans did not hit until the March of 3050. After Leo Showers was killed in October, they didn't come back until October of 3051. By then, the IS had their meetings, set aside a lot of differences and learned how to fight better from Wolf's Dragoons. By May of 3052, it is over. This is a very fast campaign that is over. So I don't see where you are complaining about any sort of timeline issue. The IS were able to mount a successful defense and stall the Clan invaders within 2 years, and they had a year of peace in between the invasion.
In summary, they were hit hard and fast, lost a lot of worlds. Struck a blow. Had a year to prepare. Stopped the invasion.
Yes, it is written by the creators, therefore it is canon. It is what keeps everyone on the same page. If you don't like it, implement house rules or different paths of history in your own group.
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As for saying it is difficult to mount a periphery campaign – then how did the North-wind Highlanders do it and how did the Kell Hounds do it – Phelan getting captured ring a bell or two?
Phelan was hunting pirates and was captured by Wolf while doing so at the very beginning of the invasion. As far as merc units performing suicide runs, they can get paid to do that. A house couldn't afford to just throw away troops.
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This is my point …. If it can be done by mercenaries then it can be done by the main armies and thus should have been written in … as an army they should have raided the enemy for advanced weapons systems within the periphery and the deep periphery. Not including this is so wrong on so many levels ….. go-on explain why they couldn’t do it?
They couldn't raid them. They were on the defensive for the 3050 waves. You can't just say, oh, we keep losing battle after battle. Let's not shore up our defenses and go on the offensive against an enemy we haven't been able to beat.
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Clans have superior aerospace – have a look again
Clan Wolf –582 fighters; Jade Falcon –584 fighters
FS RCT fields a full Regimental Wing – 60 Fighters each / Regiment + in addition to that there are also Naval wings of fighters – (Pg. 23 Field Manual Federated Suns).
How easy would it be to pull 6 Regimental wings together and put them in advance of the Clan assault where they are attacking what 4-5 worlds each wave on average? Therefore they are down to what 100 fighters each – they may be good but with 5 to one odds they are not that good – also if you send half against the fighters while the other half attack their Jump-ships? What if we had the DC doing this with Kamikaze and small nukes? How long will the clans survive then? – let me guess, the books never wrote that so it could never happen ……
Pulling units and massing them together takes time. It's not like the Inner Sphere had any time to prepare for the invasion. It was thrown on them. So putting together a massive aerospace fleet and using it to attack en mass wouldn't be able to happen within a couple of months. The Lyrans were not the best fighters or generals, their union with the Federated Suns was still fairly new. The Draconis Combine was not working with anyone in the initial phase. Rasalhague was overrun. There wasn't time or cooperation for the first assault on the Inner Sphere.
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As for moving fast … again this is why the IS would use any means possible to slow their assault … thus attacking their transport (Jump-ships) would not be out of the norm …. Slow them down … prepare forces in their advance …. Attack their rear ….insert commandos kill squads …. Attack their supply lines … show me general who would not do this – they would soon be on charges of dereliction of duty / cowardice in the face of the enemy - put them against the wall!
Not possible. The way and where from the Clans were pushing in on the IS, it's not like they could just go behind them and do all that. Remember, the IS planets were falling left and right. You can't attack supply lines and worry about commando attacks when you're too busy trying to bring up units on other fronts in the IS to the Clan front. Travel was not instantaneous in Battletech
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Again …. Defender of the Status Quo … all the best writers spend vast amount of time getting it right …. Pulp writers (Hacks) … should be shown the error of their ways … how do you expect them to get better as writers? Again this is stating we all should just go along with whatever is written no matter what … sorry but I can let it go when such a huge hole is created by poor writing and being lax on due diligence / fact checking. Isn’t this why I created this discussion – why the writing was so bad and perhaps what should happened?
That's your opinion, and the problem is, you like to shout down everyone who disagress with you. The writing was not that bad and what should have happened did happen. I like how it was done well enough, and I'm tired of you complaining about it and getting on people for defending it. Is it perfect? No, of course not. But it works for what it needed to do. It set the stage for more players, for a united Inner Sphere, for a different narrative than just one House fighting with another.
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My lack of research on the Clans? I can say the same, how’s the research going on “Ducks”? – First look at The psychological paper, book and film entitled ‘The Wave’. Then look at a couple dozen of the Nat. Geo Docos on all their areas. Then read a couple of the Books of the subject – once finished – Have a real good look at Smoke Jaguars first – I still find a “duck” (Turtle Bay and the death of the old man there? – Russia WWII?) – if they are not “a duck” then what would you describe them as? Fascist … yes? But then which one? What about the Sibkos (H. Youth) – Eugenics (Arianism) – Totalitarian Government and How they treat their lower castes? (you work for the state and do what we tell you to do) – the three levels – the leader the military and the state nothing else matters? Etc etc. there are too many similarities not to call them “Ducks” …. And then what about all the other Clans … are they just different shades of “Ducks”? as for being human – “ducks” were also human and look at what they did …. No Clan Wolverine were the only ones to see the truth and the only ones with the balls to act …
QUOTE: they were based on the 13th century Mongols, Shogunate Japan, and 20th Century China ….
Sorry No, Mongols – freedom of religion, nomadic etc? Shoganate (which period – edo?) where are the arts, literature, philosophy? 20th Cent China (early, Mid or late 20th Cent?) – how can you pick and choose from these and say you have a harmonious culture it is like adding oil to water …. How can anyone say the Clans are multicultural in origin?
You still haven't researched them. Their eugenics program was nothing like the Aryans. They were producing the best bloodlines of warriors. It wasn't based on race or ethnicity. It was based on prowess and merit. Caste systems are nothing new to the world, and like I said, different Clans treated their castes differently. Turtle Bay was a massacre, yes, but even Leo Showers was appalled by it. The Jade Falcons couldn't even believe that the Jaguars did that. If you want to talk about massacres, look at the Draconis Combine and Eridani Light Horse. You can't use one example and say that all Clans followed that path and call them all Nazis, or fascists, or whatever other term you feel like.
Read up on the Clans. Nicholas Kerensky did away with family units to instill a sense of unity within the Clans. He based his new model society on all of those things. Mongols for their aggressiveness and terminology, Shogunate Japan for the warrior spirit, 20th Century China, probably something to do with suppressing rebellion and the sibkos (fostering children). These were exiled SLDF. They were multicultural. Not only that, but he created their society to fit what he needed, and he based that upon some of the Asian cultures.
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“Lump sum of all clanners being anti IS was completely wrong. The wardens were not so”.
Then can I ask why even the wardens had re-education camps? (Battletech Comic) they loved the IS so much they invaded the IS and caused death and destruction on what level? …. Let me guess they had honour and bid forces away to minimise damage … again this is BS writing…. Sorry can’t agree, then what happened next when worlds were given over to their new overlords who had no experience at running worlds …. Plague on one world by not faming the medicine required to stave of the plague comes to mind …. How about the others? Again in reality you would be looking at WWII – Russia / France / China on these worlds post invasion ….. anything else is just poor writing.
Comics, I don't think those are canon. Inner Sphere caused massive damage to themselves, that the Clans did too is not much of an argument. The Clans tried to bid away and fight away from major centers of population. That isn't BS writing. That is how they were. The Clans knew how to run worlds. Also, a lot of governments were kept in position and power as long as they recognized that their Clan was in charge. This led to less turbulence. The Jaguars and Falcons didn't follow this as much, and had a harder time with their populations, which is why they had to have the reserve Clans show up.
The plague on the world that you are referring to took out the Clansmen there It was genetically engineered to go after only those from a certain bloodname. It also took place on the homeworlds and was very dangerous. I wish I could just remember where I read that.
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QUOTE: “Now about the clans and their populace. The problem with trying propaganda with them is 250+ years of military teachings with NO alternative narrative available. There were NO such thing as a free society for them to be envious of. Only other clans. So thinking a revolt would be easy to accomplish misses this completely. Nothing in their lives except the dark caste, would be available to show freedom in any form. Other then picking in the limited choices you have given to you”.
So this is factual? …. My Degrees that included psychology courses and international business courses would say otherwise when looking at a society as a whole …. When has there ever been a society who has been so completely indoctrinated? …. As for a revolt - as slaves there will come a time to revolt …. I am Spartacus! (The Dark Cast could be way bigger than anyone ever thought and on worlds hidden to all Clan forces? Who is to say this is wrong? …. Let me guess I believe the book and the book says this … and the book is never wrong!)
Though I did not say it would be easy to accomplish … what I did say that with the help of Operation Serpent the dissidents decided to attack…. As to the scale of this attack, this would be up to the writer of the story to work out would it not? …. So how interesting do you want it to get would be a better question (the Rebels in SW as a template / Exo Squad as a template / other template forces?) to ask?
Again, you are getting hung up on the word free. Free doesn't mean without hardships. The caste system didn't mean they weren't treated well (in certain Clans). The Jaguars treated their lower castes terrible. It cost them a lot. Wolf and Diamond Shark allowed their merchants a lot of leeway. It helped them. Coyote believed in their scientists. Star Adder had some semblance of respect even for the laborers. They knew without everyone, the warriors would be nothing. Also, a revolt would do the lower castes no good. They had no access to mechs. They had other ways to get back at the ruling classes. Jaguar executed a lot of their trouble makers. They never recovered economically. And if lower castes were treated poorly, they would welcome another Clan's attempt to bid on and liberate them in trials and give their new rulers better effort than their previous ones. Caste doesn't equal slave, although it is easy to view it like that. Everyone had their place and they knew it. Even in "free" countries, people tend to do what they are born into. Farmers beget more farmers, cops or military. White collar fosters white collar.
There was no reason for most within the caste system to try to revolt. They had hard work and a decent enough life to go with it. But the castes within the Crusader faction were usually treated a little more harshly and believed in the warrior's cause to go to the IS because they believed that all the IS worlds were an Eden and it would make their lives a little easier with more comfort.
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Again I can only say the current writing is sub. Par. … there was no fact checking in spots… the story was ludicrous as it did not take into account variables that should have been included…. No, It would be better for all to just start a rewrite … I know no one will agree with me now … but this in my opinion and I am sticking to it as I believe the fans would appreciate a good re-write once it was in their hands …. And they began to read it …..
No, a rewrite is bad. There is too much source material out there. By doing that, you alienate everyone who has ever played it, especially in the early years. Also, losing all those novels because you want a few things changed just won't sit well with everyone. What you are saying, is that all the novels, all the work these people put into it, just isn't good enough for you anymore and you want to throw that away to build something that is similar but is more suited to your particular beliefs and opinions. You would make 30 some years of Battletech useless and unreadable because of this. That doesn't sit well with me.
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ghostrider
06/12/18 11:18 AM
66.74.61.223
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Wow. So the clans used a warship once to bomb a population in revolt. The DC has done far worse in it's time. Maybe the 1st succession war might be good reading. Cities died quickly under the firestorms that raged with nuclear attacks. Kenteres is a good example of that. Even the FC used nukes. And by suggesting they use them again means you put them in an even worse situation. The claim the clans are immoral, as it appears, yet you are suggesting using nukes to be rid of them, yet do not understand what that brings.
Supply runs two weeks? Really. Read what is typed, not what is thought to be there. Each leg of the trip could have a jumpship jump one direction, pick up a load, and then jump the other direction, and repeat this action every 2 weeks with a normal recharge. Part of a command circuit.
Reeducation camps. Was that clan or comstar? Last I knew of Comstar was running them. And for some of us, they are called jails. For those using the tactics of assassinations against the clanners, that is a logical course for an invader to do. It isn't like the IS didn't do that to each other, it was just not printed.
Do you really think the clans did not have the abilities to deal with problems on worlds? Their own worlds had issues and they had to deal with them. It isn't like a teen just out of training was sent or dealing with issues. The trial of position skewers that some, I will admit that. But being higher then a star captain out of the sibco did not happen. It meant violating the code of the trial, unless you can get another ego maniac to agree to it. Aidan Pride showed what happens when you do so. Phelan and Natasha was another example the other way.
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ghostrider
06/12/18 11:30 AM
66.74.61.223
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When has there been a nation so taught like the clans, even existed? Even a thousand miles, you still had other nations in the area to show you what freedom is. Not light years with no contact. The entire clan beginning was military forces leaving with their families and such. And by the end of the civil war in the clans in the beginning, people accepted it, as they were tired of the wars that kept happening.
And for revolts, you have to have a chance to live afterwards. Do you think, giving the idea the clans were pure dictators, the populace would be able to escape? Something is missing here. The dark caste was the only option, and even that was not an option. Where would they go? The other clans would not allow such things to happen, as it would give rise to the others to think it was tolerated.
With no where to go, and the fact the populace was not slaves, as suggested, why is a revolt even considered? More then a few of those 'slaves' support the way things are done. It keeps them safe, and allows them to do things that would not be possible under other conditions. They may not have the freedom to tell their leaders to go to hell, but they had alot more then more then a few nations do today.
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ghostrider
06/12/18 11:49 AM
66.74.61.223
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The caste system is alive and well in the world today. Alot of people can not even begin to get out of their rut as the rich and powerful are looking to make economic slaves out of most.
Factory workers in one area are likely to bear children that will be factory workers. Farmers and such are the same thing.
You want a hard life, a few in the IS would be happy to provide that. Even in the FC, there were leaders that thought their power gave them the right. The clans put people to work in areas they seem best to be in. A weak person can not be a firefighter. Just not possible, though we lessen the tests to allow it today. Someone that can't even turn on a computer is not meant to program or even fix them. So in that aspect, they were kept to what they could do. Not strive to be something else.
As for the plague reference, the only one I kind of know of was on a FRR world. A flu struck every year in one area, and the clanners got it when attacking. The FRR used that to help remove those clanners for a while.
A suggestion, would be look at this from a point of view not locked into the single view that seems to be here. The clans were not a bunch of thug bandits ruling over those under them like a pack of animals. In some ways, they were better then the IS at keeping their people happy. Medical proceedures being one of them, though some were lolthed to use them on meer civilians.
I forget you got here after we had a discussion about restarting the game. The writing is bad in some things, but others, well mechanics have issues as well. The idea of actually fixing issues with the rules was brought up, and as much as I hate to admit it, the game would not survive a restart like Dungeons and Dragons has done.
Continuity issues has been in almost any sci fi out there. And the issues with the great tech the enemy has falters, once the 'good guys' get it.
Game balance is used to prevent some things from being fixed. So the basics of the game has issues, what do you think is going to happen with some writing about their favorite units and not really understanding some of the concepts. This may upset those, but when you do things in the novels, you can't in the game, there are issues.
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