Karagin
10/01/02 02:39 PM
63.173.170.108
|
The Judson EW Corvette was a black-ops project that NAIS was working on prior to the Clan invasion. The designers and technicans felt they could re-creat the old SLDF BUG-EYE survalliance ship on to a bigger ship and thus it could do more be cost effective. Dr. Banzai was sold on the idea and he in turn convince Prince Davion to give the okay for them to begin.
After many years of trials and failures they finially came up with set up that allowed them to use the smallest warship class and still meet the over all project guidlines. Thus was born the Judson Electronic Warfare Class Corvette.
code:
AeroTech 2 Vessel Technical Readout
VALIDATED
Class/Model/Name: Judson EW Class Corvette
Tech: Inner Sphere / 3067
Vessel Type: WarShip
Rules: [b] Level 2, Standard design[/b]
Rules Set: [b]AeroTech2[/b]
Mass: 100,000 tons
K-F Drive System: (Unknown)
Power Plant: Standard
Safe Thrust: 4
Maximum Thrust: 6
Armor Type: Lamellor Ferro-carbide
Armament:
24 Guardian ECM
24 PPC
8 NL35
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Class/Model/Name: Judson EW Class Corvette
Mass: 100,000 tons
Equipment: Mass
Power Plant, Drive & Control: 24,000.00
Thrust: Safe Thrust: 4
Maximum Thrust: 6
Kearny-Fuchida Hyperdrive: Compact (Integrity = 4) 45,250.00
Jump Sail: No Sail (Fusion-Charged K-F) .00
Structural Integrity: 150 15,000.00
Total Heat Sinks: 334 Double 70.00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 5,100.00
Bridge, Controls, Radar, Computer & Attitude Thrusters: 250.00
Fire Control Computers: .00
Food & Water: (377 days supply) 402.00
Hyperpulse Generator: 50.00
Armor Type: Lamellor Ferro-carbide (510 total armor pts) 300.00
Capital Scale Armor Pts
Location: L / R
Fore: 93
Fore-Left/Right: 85/85
Aft-Left/Right: 85/85
Aft: 77
Cargo:
Bay 1: Fighters (6) with 2 doors 900.00
Bay 2: Cargo (1) 1,607.00
Crew and Passengers:
20 Officers (16 minimum) 200.00
65 Crew (45 minimum) 455.00
16 Gunners (16 minimum) 112.00
100 Marines 500.00
12 Bay Personnel .00
Weapons and Equipment Loc SRV MRV LRV ERV Heat Mass
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3 Guardian ECM Nose -- -- -- -- 0 4.50
3 PPC Nose 3(30) 3(30) -- -- 30 21.00
1 NL35 Nose 4 4 4 -- 52 700.00
3 Guardian ECM FL/R -- -- -- -- 0 9.00
3 PPC FL/R 3(30) 3(30) -- -- 60 42.00
1 NL35 FL/R 4 4 4 -- 104 1,400.00
3 Guardian ECM L/RBS -- -- -- -- 0 9.00
3 PPC L/RBS 3(30) 3(30) -- -- 60 42.00
1 NL35 L/RBS 4 4 4 -- 104 1,400.00
3 Guardian ECM AL/R -- -- -- -- 0 9.00
3 PPC AL/R 3(30) 3(30) -- -- 60 42.00
1 NL35 AL/R 4 4 4 -- 104 1,400.00
3 Guardian ECM Aft -- -- -- -- 0 4.50
3 PPC Aft 3(30) 3(30) -- -- 30 21.00
1 NL35 Aft 4 4 4 -- 52 700.00
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: Heat: 656 100,000.00
Tons Left: .00
Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 3,537,994,000 C-Bills
Battle Value: 27,699
Cost per BV: 127,730.03
Weapon Value: 22,199 (Ratio = .80)
Damage Factors: SRV = 477; MRV = 430; LRV = 202; ERV = 78
Maintenance: Maintenance Point Value (MPV) = 268,725
(121,466 Structure, 135,175 Life Support, 12,084 Weapons)
Support Points (SP) = 122,328 (46% of MPV)
BattleForce2: Not applicable
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Bob_Richter
10/01/02 03:00 PM
4.35.174.250
|
I had no idea HMA could build illegal designs until you posted this.
You do know that Guardian ECMs not only:
1) Have no effect in AT2
but
2) Cannot be mounted on ships in AT2
Right?
Guardian ECMs are wildly inappropriate to what you're trying to do anyway.
Just give up on that idea, and let's come up with some good L3 ideas for ECM, okay?
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
|
Karagin
10/01/02 04:31 PM
63.173.170.157
|
Thank you for your comment, frankly I find them to be pointless...my advice to you is wait for the Errata for AT2 that is due out from the changes made when HMAero was tested.
Like Confighters can now mount engery weapons contartry to what AT2 claims as well as other changes. So to answer your point less claims NO the ship IS NOT ILLEGAL.
So please do not add any further comments to my posting since I do not wish to waste time reading them and they will go unread.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
masdog5
10/01/02 04:42 PM
205.213.145.130
|
Instead of having tonnes of ECM packages, your ship should focus a little more on what its name says it does. Electronic warfare isnt just jamming hundreds of ECM packages into a ship, its also locating. identifying, and destroying enemy emissions sources.
Using some of the current 'Wild Weasel' weapons as an example, you should design and equipt a variant of one of the large anti-ship missiles to seek and destroy sensor emmissions. Ships in combat cant risk turning their sensors off, so blinding them would give a side an extreme tactical advantage.
Instead of using so many ecm suites, create a modified AT/2 version of the Capellan Stealth Armor.
Developing or modifying a fighter to take on the wild weasel role might give this ship a good compliment.
|
Karagin
10/01/02 04:48 PM
63.173.170.157
|
That could be a possible upgrade to this one...I am trying to keep it at level 2 for now...level 3 and higher aka Level 4/Home rules is another matter.
I have enough cargo space I could mount added on systems do some of what you suggested as Mis. Equipment and such. And a Wild Weasle like fighter is a good idea...say one that has ECM, Beagle, TAG and Narc Pods, I would think would be the best way to go.
Do you have any ideas for the outfitting of the fighter?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
masdog5
10/01/02 05:00 PM
205.213.145.130
|
Active Probe and TC would be a good way to start with the new fighter, and possibly ECMor some sort of stealth system. In order to make it mission specific, though, you might need to add some L4 modifications.
You would need to put some sort of guided munitions, perhaps ArrowIV and Tag, a new LRM version that tracks radar/comm/C3 emmissions, a few lasers, and some prohectile weapon for hitting hardened targets(AC 10?).
Personally, I would put this on an assualt fighter chassis (80 - 100 tonnes if htere is no such class) and pack on enough armor because its mission profile makes it one of the first fighters into a hostile zone.
Beyond that, there isnt much I can think of.
|
Karagin
10/01/02 05:47 PM
63.173.170.37
|
Something along the lines you mentioned could be done...I will play around with some ideas and toss in yours and see what I come up with for the fighter...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Bob_Richter
10/02/02 03:49 AM
4.35.174.250
|
>>>my advice to you is wait for the Errata for AT2 that is due out from the changes made when HMAero was tested.
<<<
That would be MY advice to YOU as well.
As of NOW, this ship is ILLEGAL.
(Chances are it will always be, too.)
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
|
Karagin
10/02/02 04:13 AM
63.173.170.15
|
The ship is not illegal.
If you want to say it is, then that is up to you...I stand by the program and I know for a fact that Rick put everything that was in the AT2 book and then some into the program and made SURE HE RAN IT ALL PAST CHRIS AND RANDAL. So until Randal says other wise it is you Bob who are wrong.
So please don't bother replying.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Rick Raisley
10/02/02 09:58 PM
66.20.155.58
|
"I had no idea HMA could build illegal designs until you posted this."
I think sometimes there's a fine line between illegal and not usable. I try to be sure that HMAero designs legal vessels according to AT2 and BS rules. As to ECM equipment, yes, it's my understanding that ECM cannot be used (read operated effectively) on anything other than fighters. But I left them in as equipment that can be selected on larger craft as well. Yes, IMHO, they don't have any rules-based use on large craft. But it makes more sense to me to make them available, for those whose house rules allow them, rather than to force users to make custom weapons to include them in their house rules. Just my opinion.
I personally think the designer bears some responsibility in making legal, and usable, designs. Especially with HMAero I found that there are so many gray areas in the rules, and so much interest in designing spacecraft outside the box, that I allowed a bit more latitude than usual. I hope that is taken as flexibility in the program, rather than illegality.
|
Bob_Richter
10/02/02 10:42 PM
4.35.174.250
|
...when you are right and I am wrong. 
Today is not such a day.
Randall already HAS said otherwise.
From the "Ask the Precentor Martial" forum on CBT:
(This can be found on page 37 of the PDF archive.)
"Q: I have been informed that certain types of equipment may not be installed on ASFs (C3,
ECM, and Active Probes, for starters). Is this actually the case?
A: Yes that is the case. As for errata, they still mount it."
There it is in black and white, Karagin. What more do you want?
C3, ECM, and Active Probes MAY NOT be installed on Fighters (or, one presumes, other AT2 designs.) The fighter designs in the back of AT2 are not only illegal, but BLATANTLY illegal.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
|
Bob_Richter
10/02/02 10:44 PM
4.35.174.250
|
>>>I personally think the designer bears some responsibility in making legal, and usable, designs.<<<
I agree. Unfortunately, the case here is that a person is taking HMAero's assertion that the design is VALIDATED as proof that it is a valid and legal level 2 AT2 design (which it is not.)
Perhaps you should move that gear to level 3?
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
|
Rick Raisley
10/02/02 10:49 PM
66.20.155.58
|
"Perhaps you should move that gear to level 3?"
Not a bad idea. Level 2 on Fighters and small craft, Level 3 on DropShips and larger.
|
Nightward
10/08/02 06:04 PM
132.234.251.211
|
Imagine...
"Target locked. Commencing...uh...where did she go?"
"Arg! I have no idea! The kilometer-long ship is using an ECM suite! Damn, we'll never find them now!"
Hmmm. I think not. Whilst EW would definately have a place in space warfare, I doubt that any systems currently available would have much of an impact on space combat. Anybody using ECM simply sets themselves up; as soon as the ECM bubble goes up, you can lock onto it. Then you use light or IR scopes to obtain a sight lock on it. Sure, your fire may not be as accurate, but hey. Alternatively (given the sudden preponderance of Nukes in BT) you could strap nuke heads onto your Capital Missiles with a program that tells them to head for the larges source of ECM in the area. Blammo.
I think that every vessel in BattleTech right now already has a sophisticated ECM/ECCM/ECCCM ad nauseum system on board (consider the Sensor and Targeting equipment masses). The Screen Launchers add to this role. Given the vastness of space and the power of the weapons systems, though, these systems probably have very little impact on warfare.
Further, when you consider the size of WarShips (usually upwards of 500 metres, not to mention the Jump Sail)- and whilst I realise that in space such a measurement is negligable- it's pretty hard to hide from sensor arrays. Perhaps if they were behind a planetoid or similar, or hiding near the sun where you get intense EM anyway- is would be pretty easy to spot them.
Another point is the fact that WarShips are already so damn expensive. Adding such systems to the vessel- or, Lord help us, doing what masdog5 suggested and adding Stealth Armour to the vessel- would cost an incredible amount of money and resources- possibly enough that building a McKenna would be cheaper. As nice as an EW vessel would be, I'd probably go the McKenna.
As my closing argument, I'll point out a rule in the BMR: a vehicle may mount only one Active Probe or ECM suite. The Judson carries 24. Uhhh...my maths is not so good, but I think 24 is a lot more than 1
That all being said, I find the idea of EW in space to be an intruiging one. I argue aghainst the application of it you have made purely because I don't consider it to be likely or logical...but hey, we're playing a game set 1,065 years in the future that features giant robotic combat vehicles as the weapon of choice
So although the idea is interesting, I think it needs some work. Possibly adding a % mass to the targeting and sensor suites to improve their performance and lower their emmissions, making it harder to detect enemy scans or locks. Or creating a missile-delivered ECM system similar to ECM iNARC pods- a missile that comes in and deploys magnetic mines that attach to outer hulls and create a powerful jamming field...in this fashion, techs would have to go starside, in combat no less, to fix the problem. Damn. I think I've just hit on a workable idea
Or modified Reagan networks consisting of small sattelite-ish sensor modules strung through space set to detect incoming WaShips (but such a system probably already exists). As a final idea, what about something similar to the Whiskers they used on board the SeaQuest DSV? Hmmm. As I go on, the ideas become less likely, so I'd better stop now
Finally, about the design itself: it should probably be "Princess Davion" now that Yvonne's in charge, and also why does it use Standard PPCs? I know the FC has a pile of them left over from upgrading their combat forces, so it keeps the cost down a little, but with the amount of Double Heat Sinks on board, you could just as well have gone ER models. Finally, and I have to ask, why the Marines? If the vessel is (as it seems) designed for a stand-off EW/C3 role, it stands little chance of being boarded or launching a boarding action against anyone else. I too have the habit of adding Marines to every vessel I create (including the Clan ones) but on this ship, where weight and space are a a premium, perhaps you should ditch them in favour of larger fuel reserves or a Screen Launcher. I also note that it lacks Lithium-Fusin batteries, which, given its design purpose, I would think would be a must. Finally, I note it is equipped with a HPG. Uhhh...I doubt that Com Star would hand over such a system to the FC, or let plans for one be taken. I really think tht should go.
All of the above was IMO. Hopefully, I haven't been too heavy-handed, and I apologise in advance if I have. Have a think about my ideas, and let me know how you get on.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
|
Karagin
10/10/02 09:06 PM
63.173.170.1
|
The idea is not to make the whole ship vanish...more of something that interfears with fire control or the capital missiles guidance systems. Or maybe effect the Artimes IVs on figthers when they get close to the ship, cause Streaks to not fire or cause them to lose the Streak lock, etc...things like that.
I don't see cloacking systems or such as anything for BT...contrary to those who have argued other wise, the idea here is come up with a ship that adds flavor to the space battle and causes each side to think about what the ships does and figure out how to defeat it.
As for the BMR rule, I don't think that effect AT2, but I could be wrong...As for no ECM...well I think the lack of it or better yet the lack of rules that actually make it worth while in the game is a telling lack of the knowledge of the writters and such of the game. There are enough books and papers on what ECM does and how it works for them or anyone to read and then come up with simple yet very easy to use rules and such as to what ECM does and doesn't do in BT and AT2. But the idea of ignoring it or forgetting about it leds us to the same thing that comes up with some of the other rules, folks add in what they think it should be and then share it and those who want it or like the idea comment and those who don't do the same.
The game is a military sci-fi game, there would be ECM on ALL of the units in an enviorment like BT battlefield has. Both ground based units and aerospace units...so the warships should have ECM.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
masdog5
10/12/02 02:28 PM
205.213.145.116
|
'But the idea of ignoring it or forgetting about it leds us to the same thing that comes up with some of the other rules, folks add in what they think it should be and then share it and those who want it or like the idea comment and those who don't do the same.'
Perhaps it was left out for one small reason...for most of Battletech's history, warships, ecm, and lots of other Lvl. 2 technologies were a dream or myth. Because htey were all incorporated so quickly into the BT universe, of course things are going to get overlooked, but give them enough time and rules will be created for every conceivable circumstance.
Lack of rules for something doesnt mean lack of knowledge by the writers and game designers. It is a possibility that they arent all seeing like you and didnt think of hte combination or a way thye could make it work without effecting game balance.
Until then, either create your own house rules...or play by the created rules.
|
Nightward
10/15/02 05:29 PM
132.234.251.211
|
"The idea is not to make the whole ship vanish...more of something that interfears with fire control or the capital missiles guidance systems. Or maybe effect the Artimes IVs on figthers when they get close to the ship, cause Streaks to not fire or cause them to lose the Streak lock, etc...things like that."
Yeah, I know. I was exaggerating for humour...it appears nnot to have worked, though.
The other thing too, looking back, is that a Guardian ECM Suite has an effective radius of about 200 metres. That's *MIGHTY* close in space terms, so the odds of your ECM actually doing anything to the enemy systems is pretty low. Of course, you'd still get the benefit of defeating Artemis systems and NARC beacons, which are pretty common on AeroSpace Fighters- far more common than on 'Mechs.
"As for the BMR rule, I don't think that effect AT2, but I could be wrong...As for no ECM...well I think the lack of it or better yet the lack of rules that actually make it worth while in the game is a telling lack of the knowledge of the writters and such of the game. There are enough books and papers on what ECM does and how it works for them or anyone to read and then come up with simple yet very easy to use rules and such as to what ECM does and doesn't do in BT and AT2. But the idea of ignoring it or forgetting about it leds us to the same thing that comes up with some of the other rules, folks add in what they think it should be and then share it and those who want it or like the idea comment and those who don't do the same."
True. And I agree that it would be nice to see some sort of ECM effect in ship-to-ship warfare. However, the thing is that EW in space would not work like EW on the ground, which is the example you seem to be using. Considering the size of the vessels involved, you might have to add 10 or so ECM suites to provide an ECM bubble that surrounds the ship. However, 15 tons is a minimal amount in WarShip terms. And even then, the bubble would only extend about 200 metres around the ship.
Personally, the way I would set about obtaining an ECM effect is to alter the ship's KF drive a bit. It already kicks out interference when active; with a little research and imagination, you could work out how to alter the power flow or drive structure so as to provide an ECM effect in addition to Jump capability. The altered "ECM Core" runs through the ship, so it would spread its effect evenly. Alternatively, you could mount ECM packs through the superstructure and armour of the vessel. Sensors would similarly be added through the vessel. But as I said, scale is the difference. For a system to be effective in space, it would have to be very large, and, as a result, very heavy. That's why I suggested the EW gear being made as a factor of the vessel's sensor suites; since sensors arew already based on vessel size, it reflects the need for larger vessels to have larger EW systems to provide an effect.
"The game is a military sci-fi game, there would be ECM on ALL of the units in an enviorment like BT battlefield has. Both ground based units and aerospace units...so the warships should have ECM. "
Yes. But as I said before, I think that all vessels do have such equipment; it is merely a question of how effective they are.
Anyway, my suggestion for AT2 ECM rules are as follows:
ECM Suites weigh X% of the vessel's Sensor mass. (I don't play AT much, so I don't know how much would be fair.) The ECM system projects a bubble around the vessel that renders enemy NARC, iNARC, Artemis IV, and Active Probes inoperative. The ECM bubble also disrupts enemy Teleoperated Missiles; add +1 to hit.
Active Probe: Again weighs X%. The Active Probe used by WarShips allows for better targeting data for Teleoperated missiles: subtract 1 from the to-hit number. The probe also allows for easier docking of AeroSpace Fighters and DropShips; subtract 1 from all difficulty rolls. The Active Probe forces all units within the area of effect (I was thinking maybe 20 Hexes?) to show the vessel's controller the record sheets of any unit operating in the radius at the controlling player's whim. Vessels protected by ECM suites have the choice of not showing the sheets, or producing a false sheet (ie, they could give the enemy player a sheet for the Sparrow Hawk instead of the Kirghiz that is really there). However, the stronger sensor outputs makes it easier for enemy teleoperated Missiles to lock on; subtract 1 from their To-Hit difficulties.
Or something like that, anyway. What do you think?
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
|
Karagin
10/15/02 05:47 PM
68.21.149.16
|
I like your ideas and they have merit. They don't seem unbalanced.
The weight I would think would have to either follow given sizes of the capital weapons as you suggested a % based setup.
Range could be handled like it for the weapons Short, Medium, Long, Extreme and Point Defense. That way they stay true to the given levels and thus don't end up being something that is abused since they can for the most part counter each other.
As for my examples...there are several books on aircraft ECM units that could be useds as model for space mounted units. Or naval ship versions could be used as a model.
Your ideas are what I was looking for and seem to have balance that would give both advantages and disadvantages so they end up balanced.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Nightward
10/15/02 06:08 PM
132.234.251.211
|
Yeah. I figured that given the nature of their use, such systems yould have to differ from their BT rules. The other thing I was thinking was that perhaps vessels with ECM cannot make use of Teleoperated Missiles or Artemis technology. What do you reckon?
I like the range idea. Make the modifiers become available at certain distances...
I think we might be on to something here. Maybe we can put something together an claim the glory if FanPro want to add EW to AT3 
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
|
Karagin
10/15/02 06:47 PM
68.21.149.16
|
I agree, we are on to something...Ships with ECM not being able to use the ArtIV and Tele missiles seems like another good balancing point to me.
Right has the mods come into play the chances to hit change or something like that...say at medium range you get a +2 added to the hit roll but a long range it's only a +1. Or something like that...with the highest number being at short range or closer still and the range of point defense.
That would work well for ship to ship. Now for ship to fighter, we may have to really come up with some that doesn't mean the end of fighters in the game. 
I like the last idea a lot... 
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Karagin
10/22/05 01:58 PM
24.243.178.223
|
Round two for this one.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
|
|
Extra information
|
0 registered and 57 anonymous users are browsing this forum.
Moderator: Nic Jansma, Cray, Frabby, BobTheZombie
Print Topic
|
Forum Permissions
You cannot start new topics
You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled
UBBCode is enabled
|
Topic views: 10461
|
|
|
|
|
|
|