His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/19/09 07:33 PM
67.180.139.229
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Quote:
It is mean, but it has a lot going against it.
1. Highly expensive
2. Easy to destroy
3. Component armor is wasted on such a crit-heavy machine
Also, where are the ML's placed?
1) OH YES!!!
2) Not any more that any other mech of the 75 ton weight class.
3) The component armor is around the pilot. "As long as there is life there is hope."
The LLs are in the arms and the MLs are in the L/R torsos, five each. That leaves the arms free for punching.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Kovax
01/20/09 10:40 AM
75.146.193.46
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Arguments 1 and 2 boil down to the same problem: XL engine. The reduced survivability and increased cost of a heavy 'Mech with XL makes it unattractive in my eyes. In exchange for the staggering tripling or quadrupling of the total price tag, the speed and firepower increases which the lighter engine allows make the 'Mech about 1.5X as powerful. For the rare "Elite" pilot who can use that advantage to turn the tide of a larger battle, it may be worth it. For the "Regular" 'Mech jock, that's a monumental waste of funds.
I'll gladly take 3 non-XL heavies against it any day of the week, for a lot less money, and even give you a 1 step better Mechwarrior to pilot the thing. With three locations to take engine hits, expect a short fight.
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Zandel_Corrin
01/20/09 05:54 PM
123.2.140.247
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too true.... especially with those oh so lovely LBX AC's you'd be using.....
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/20/09 05:55 PM
67.180.139.229
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Even the Clans don't expect a trashborn to win with 3 to 1 odds.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Zandel_Corrin
01/21/09 05:56 PM
123.2.140.247
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WRONG!
The clans LIVE for 3 to 1 odds..... ever seen a REAL clan trial of refusal?
3 warriors vs 9 or was it 12.... i think 12.... the three were basically two cause one wanted to die with honor and so took a nova with GR.... they won.
Read the Jade Pheonix trilogy then come back to me and say they don't like tough odds.....
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/21/09 06:31 PM
67.180.139.229
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Oh they love it tough but wining is more important. They don't like losers, so if they make it to tough and fail no one is going to care what odds where all that is going to be said is that they failed.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Flameblade
05/25/09 01:05 PM
98.67.160.86
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1st I love LB-X autocannons. The dual ammo layout is very cool if you are playing against combined arms. Slugs to punch through Mech armor, Scatter shot for vehicles and infantry.
2nd AC20 vs Med lasers. I am not citing a preference, but against a 75tonner a Ultra 20 (assuming a double hit) has a 10 in 36 chance of hitting the side torso and COMPLETELY destoying the location. Ending the fight in one shot. It also has a 6 in 36 chance of hitting the center torso and then its time to roll for crits. So basically a 16 in 36 chance of delivering a very crippling shot to the opposing 75 tonner. If you have some missles for secondarys then you have good chance of criting out the opposing mech. Of course with 10 mediums you have a pretty good chance of getting double 1's and the freebie critical.
Note: I do not know the armor layout of the opposing mech. It is possible to survive the side torso hit by limiting the amount of armor in the rear. Which has its own disadvantages.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
05/25/09 03:03 PM
24.5.141.133
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You like the damage of one heavy slug of a shot gun. Where I like the increased chance of hitting with pellets of bird shot.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Cray
05/25/09 06:38 PM
97.97.245.130
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Quote:
2nd AC20 vs Med lasers. I am not citing a preference, but against a 75tonner a Ultra 20 (assuming a double hit) has a 10 in 36 chance of hitting the side torso and COMPLETELY destoying the location. Ending the fight in one shot. It also has a 6 in 36 chance of hitting the center torso and then its time to roll for crits. So basically a 16 in 36 chance of delivering a very crippling shot to the opposing 75 tonner. If you have some missles for secondarys then you have good chance of criting out the opposing mech. Of course with 10 mediums you have a pretty good chance of getting double 1's and the freebie critical.
Flameblade, note the UAC rules on page 133 of the BattleTech Master Rules, Revised, or pages 114-116 of Total Warfare. Basically, UACs require you to:
1) Roll to see if you hit with 1 or 2 shots using the "2" column on the cluster/missile hits table. That's a 58.33% chance of hitting with 1 shot.
2) Roll separately to see where each shot lands on the target. The chance of hitting a specific side torso (on the frontal arc) twice is thus 5/36 x 5/36 = 0.01929. Since you could hit either torso, I suppose you could double that to 0.03858, or 3.858%.
Combined, the chance of both UAC/20 shots hitting the same side torso of a 75-ton 'Mech is (Assuming you hit with the weapon at all): 0.4167 x 0.03858 = 0.016075. It's 1.6075%, not 10 in 36.
When you factor in the chance of hitting with a UAC/20 to begin with (relatively low, given its low range and thus high range to-hit modifiers against typical targets), it's a one-in-a-blue-moon incident that you'll smash the side torso a big 'Mech in one turn with a UAC/20.
Medium lasers, on the other hand, give more opportunities to hit and deliver SOME damage.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
05/25/09 07:58 PM
24.5.141.133
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Quote:
You like the damage of one heavy slug of a shot gun. Where I like the increased chance of hitting with pellets of bird shot.
Someone *boyfriend* complained that when I respond to message boards that I am not being nice. So, I am trying to be nicer, when he is paying attention . I like times like right now that he is not looking over my shoulder to making sure that I am being nice.
The UAC20 bites! Its heavy, wastes ammo, and is only good to scare light mech pilots. My 10 MLs would wipe the battle field with your UAC20 armed mech! If you want something that is worth anything go with a GR at least you have some decent range. Something that is a piece of junk is the clan Hunchback IIC. Talk about a joke! If you are given one to pilot you might as well use the ammo to dig your own grave.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Flameblade
05/26/09 03:04 PM
64.47.95.206
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Quote:
Quote:
You like the damage of one heavy slug of a shot gun. Where I like the increased chance of hitting with pellets of bird shot.
Someone *boyfriend* complained that when I respond to message boards that I am not being nice. So, I am trying to be nicer, when he is paying attention . I like times like right now that he is not looking over my shoulder to making sure that I am being nice.
The UAC20 bites! Its heavy, wastes ammo, and is only good to scare light mech pilots. My 10 MLs would wipe the battle field with your UAC20 armed mech! If you want something that is worth anything go with a GR at least you have some decent range. Something that is a piece of junk is the clan Hunchback IIC. Talk about a joke! If you are given one to pilot you might as well use the ammo to dig your own grave.
Placing a L3 custom mech against a inferior designed canon mech is hardly a fair fight. Even the fluff on the IIC says its a last ditch mech. Hardly befitting a true clan warrior. Without max tech in front of me (I am at work) I was wondering if Laser Reflective armor was available in L3 to the clans. A UAC20 with 4 tons of ammo 55tonner with a movement profile of 6/9/6 (masc12) and 2 ERML would easliy do what it is supposed to do: Get behind and open the soft spot in the rear with a giant can opener. I could probably place the dreaded targeting computer onto it with some of the L3 weight reduction items and just plough through a side torso.
Even without going in the back door. Going full frontal would be a challange for you. With hexes 10-12 out of your range and still in AC range you would be forced to try and close. Or be forces to plink away with 4 pts of ERLL damage (This is half with Laser reflective armor). With hex 8-7 being med to the AC and still long for ML's you would have to play the range game very carefully. The clan 55tonner has the superior movement esp with MASC engaged would mean that I would fight at a range beneficial to me. Since clan pilots are superior to IS pilots i would be able to deliver solid hits.
Finally just because a UAC can fire on double tap dosnt mean you have too. With 20 shots anything over 8's would only squeeze off one round and add in both ERML.
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Cray
05/26/09 04:06 PM
147.160.136.10
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Quote:
Quote:
The UAC20 bites! Its heavy, wastes ammo, and is only good to scare light mech pilots. My 10 MLs would wipe the battle field with your UAC20 armed mech! If you want something that is worth anything go with a GR at least you have some decent range. Something that is a piece of junk is the clan Hunchback IIC. Talk about a joke! If you are given one to pilot you might as well use the ammo to dig your own grave.
Placing a L3 custom mech against a inferior designed canon mech is hardly a fair fight. Even the fluff on the IIC says its a last ditch mech. Hardly befitting a true clan warrior. Without max tech in front of me (I am at work) I was wondering if Laser Reflective armor was available in L3 to the clans. A UAC20 with 4 tons of ammo 55tonner with a movement profile of 6/9/6 (masc12) and 2 ERML would easliy do what it is supposed to do: Get behind and open the soft spot in the rear with a giant can opener. I could probably place the dreaded targeting computer onto it with some of the L3 weight reduction items and just plough through a side torso.
Alright, folks, enough with the thread drift into "my custom is kewler than yours." The topic is the LBX autocannon, not UACs vs MLs vs L3 custom 'Mechs. Don't make me lock the thread.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Flameblade
05/26/09 08:18 PM
98.67.160.86
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Apologies all around.
back to the LB's
Another major differnece between the LB series and other weapons is BV. The LB-10X as a BV of 148. ERLarge Laser: 249. Lg Pulse: 265 UAC10: 211. All essentially deal 10 points of damage at a max range of about 20 hexes(give or take). The before mentioned ERPPC is in at a whopping 412. The BV diffence is important especially when placed on fast mechs whose speed multiplier will compound this difference. The clan Grendel is a good example: Prime sports an ER Large Laser and its BV clocks in at 2096. Whereas C carries the LB-10X and weighs in at a mere 1422 BV. D config graces us with the ERPPC its BV is 1963. Prime vs C especially telling. Of course there are other weapons gracing the other configs and each has its advantage, this is merely a illustration. It was the 1st omni I stumbled upon that had a LB-10X and another 10 point damage weapon in an alternate config.
The low BV of the LB-10X compared to other weapons does hint at it being inferior.
The numbers come from a mech generator I use and may be wrong.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
05/27/09 01:24 PM
24.5.141.133
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LB 10-X AC
Tons 11
heat 2
Damage 10 (Use 10 missile chart)
Range
Min 0
Short 6
Med 12
Long 18
C-Bill 400,000
CV 123
Ammo 10
--------------------------
LRM 10
Tons 5
Heat 4
Damage 10 (Use 10 missile chart)
Range
Min 6
Short 7
Med 14
Long 21
C-Bill 100,000
CV 58
Ammo 12
Granted that the LRM has double the heat and has a min range of 6. But other than that the LRM is better than the LB 10-X AC
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Flameblade
05/27/09 07:57 PM
98.67.103.39
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Note: LB-10X only uses LRM-10 table only if it uses scattershot. In which case it provides -1 to hit mechs and -3 to hit airborne targets (like VTOLS), which the LRM does not. For slugs 10 points to a single location which the LRM cannot do with standard to hit numbers.
AND the LRM is vulnerable to things like AMS.
Plus double heat. Plus min of 6.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
05/27/09 08:35 PM
24.5.141.133
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True.
But with that weight savings I could add a PPC. Granted that would not give the bonus to hit and if there are other high heat generating weapons it will only make things worse. There are always trade offs
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
|
Flameblade
05/27/09 10:06 PM
98.67.103.39
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Obsolutely. The LRM does have the advantage of being much lighter than LB-10X. So ton for ton PPC+LRM though has x7 the heat. More so if ERPPC is added. the LB also is using more crits until HS are factored in. The PPC+LRM combo is much better for smaller mechs as they provide better damage throughput with less crits.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
05/27/09 10:50 PM
24.5.141.133
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It all depends what the mech is carrying other than the LBX or LRM+PPC.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
|
Zandel_Corrin
05/27/09 11:17 PM
123.2.140.247
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Too true... the same with every weap (ML and UAC included), it's the whole package that makes the difference...
ALso depends on the speed / armour / intended purpose of the mech as to what weaps are best.
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
05/28/09 09:13 AM
24.5.141.133
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Comparing the LBX or LRM+PPC to the ML or UAC, that was asked to be dropped from this thread and was moved, is comparing apples to oranges. You can't compare the merits of a long range weapon to a short range weapon.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
|
Zandel_Corrin
05/28/09 07:56 PM
123.2.140.247
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Who was comparing them?
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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KitK
06/19/09 02:31 PM
198.169.16.239
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I never thought Dire Wolf Prime was a very well designed mech. I always thought it generated too much and didn't take full use of the available trinkets and gadgets. . . I was wrong. I hadn't actually played against one! I started dueling against it megamek and discovered what a monster it is (and that's with the AI controlling it). I think one reason for the Dire Wolf Prime's success is the number of times it can hit you in a round rather than how hard its weapons hit. With that thought it mind, would LBX5s in the place of the UAC5s increase or decrease the mech's utility and firepower? Has anyone tried it?
KK
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Prince_of_Darkness
06/20/09 01:28 PM
71.38.74.162
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I would probably decrease the total firepower, but increase it's ability to chew up critical slots- if you pack only cluster munitions, that is.
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