CYBRN4CR
02/14/10 08:01 PM
71.236.221.45
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These next series of threads examine some of my redesigned 3050 Clan mechs, and their potential utility among the Clans.
This thread examines my redesigned Stone Rhino.
Stats are shown in MegaMek condensed style to reduce clutter.
Code:
Stone Rhino Custom 100 tons Clan TW
Movement: 3/5/3 Engine: 300 XL Heat Sinks: 13 [26]
Internal: 152 (Endo Steel) Armor: 307/307 HD: 3 9 CT: 31 50 ( 12) RT: 21 34 ( 8) LT: 21 34 ( 8) RA: 17 34 LA: 17 34 RL: 21 42 LL: 21 42
Gauss Rifle [LA] 1 Heat Gauss Rifle [RA] 1 Heat Gauss Rifle [LT] 1 Heat ER Medium Laser [LT] 5 Heat ER Medium Laser [LT] 5 Heat ER Medium Laser [RT] 5 Heat ER Medium Laser [RT] 5 Heat
Gauss Ammo (24) [LA] Gauss Ammo (24) [RA] Gauss Ammo (24) [RT]
A-Pod [LL] A-Pod [RL] ECM Suite [HD]
BV: 3,558 Cost: 24,012,000 Cbills
Yes, Karagin. This one's for you, with love.
For this design, I kept to the original look and feel of the mech by removing the pulse lasers and giving it a third gauss rifle, with plenty of ammo to keep each going strong. To do this, I converted the engine to an XL version, and added Endo Steel to the chassis. To protect the design even more, I added an ECM suite to guard against enemy electronics, and A-Pods to guard against infantry attacks. Finally, to round out the design, I gave it four ER medium lasers with enough heatsinks to give it no heat issues.
A solid rear-echelon Clan mech.
Edited by CYBRN4CR (02/15/10 03:04 AM)
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Karagin
02/15/10 03:23 AM
80.149.45.102
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Again too much ammo, which could have gone to other things, and again you are trying to turn the Clan mech into an IS mech...
So here is my take, which I gave you the run down on earlier.
Code:
BattleMech Technical Readout
Type/Model: Bonecrusher Tech: Clan / 3132 Config: Biped BattleMech Rules: Level 2, Standard design
Mass: 100 tons Chassis: Endo Steel Power Plant: 300 XL Fusion Walking Speed: 32.4 km/h Maximum Speed: 54.0 km/h Jump Jets: None Jump Capacity: 0 meters Armor Type: Standard Armament: 4 Gauss Rifles 2 ER Medium Lasers 1 ER PPC Manufacturer: (Unknown) Location: (Unknown) Communications System: (Unknown) Targeting & Tracking System: (Unknown)
-------------------------------------------------------- Type/Model: Bonecrusher Mass: 100 tons
Equipment: Crits Mass Int. Struct.: 152 pts Endo Steel 7 5.00 (Endo Steel Loc: 1 HD, 1 LA, 1 RA, 1 LT, 1 RT, 1 LL, 1 RL) Engine: 300 XL Fusion 10 9.50 Walking MP: 3 Running MP: 5 Jumping MP: 0 Heat Sinks: 12 Double [24] 0 2.00 Gyro: 4 3.00 Cockpit, Life Supt., Sensors: 5 3.00 Actuators: L: Sh+UA R: Sh+UA 12 .00 Armor Factor: 280 pts Standard 0 17.50
Internal Armor Structure Value Head: 3 9 Center Torso: 31 43 Center Torso (Rear): 14 L/R Side Torso: 21 28/28 L/R Side Torso (Rear): 10/10 L/R Arm: 17 31/31 L/R Leg: 21 38/38
Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Crits Mass -------------------------------------------------------- 1 Gauss Rifle RA 1 32 10 16.00 (Ammo Locations: 1 LA, 1 RA, 1 LT, 1 RT) 1 Gauss Rifle LA 1 6 12.00 1 Gauss Rifle RT 1 6 12.00 1 ER Medium Laser RT 5 1 1.00 1 Gauss Rifle LT 1 6 12.00 1 ER Medium Laser LT 5 1 1.00 1 ER PPC CT 15 2 6.00 -------------------------------------------------------- TOTALS: 29 70 100.00 Crits & Tons Left: 8 .00
Calculated Factors: Total Cost: 23,974,000 C-Bills Battle Value 2: 3,273 (old BV = 2,790) Cost per BV2: 7,324.78 Weapon Value: 5,532 / 5,532 (Ratio = 1.69 / 1.69) Damage Factors: SRDmg = 66; MRDmg = 51; LRDmg = 33 BattleForce2: MP: 3, Armor/Structure: 7/6 Damage PB/M/L: 7/7/5, Overheat: 1 Class: MA; Point Value: 33
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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CYBRN4CR
02/15/10 04:03 AM
71.236.221.45
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Ooo. Another challenger appears!
I'll get back to you on this one. This looks like a good match.
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Karagin
02/15/10 04:05 AM
80.149.45.102
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Why worry about it...you have the ammo to last for years, I have enough for 16 turns the average most BT games last.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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CYBRN4CR
02/15/10 04:21 AM
71.236.221.45
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Simple. I want to end this debate with a Trial of Grievance. And only one of us is going to be proven right. It could be you or me. But it ends here.
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Karagin
02/15/10 04:46 AM
80.149.45.102
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There is no debate, you build power gamer mechs that means you want to use the loop holes and other such flaws of the game to win. The rest of us don't make mechs that like that.
Your whole unit is setup to be that way, you have elite pilots running around in mechs they would never realisticly see or use because they would never reach that high in the food chain of any unit, and when we have pointed out these things you don't seem to be happy about it.
I also suggested that you share your views of mechs and unit building on the other sites, that way you can get a broader view point on the matter, places beyond the CBT site which is rampant with munchkins and other power gamers, but I have not seen you post else where, why is this?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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CYBRN4CR
02/15/10 05:33 AM
71.236.221.45
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Time and effort posting, mainly. Hey, I'll get there eventually. But, right now, I have my hands full with everything else going on.
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Zandel_Corrin
02/15/10 06:14 AM
203.208.78.129
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I only count 8 shots each for your karagin... unless i missed something.... I'd hate to face than in a trial tho... 8 rounds = 600 potential damage at long range... OUCH!
Vs 360 from that stone rhino BTW
even with 50% accuracy that = one dead stone rhino (or crippled) and an only half dead bone crusher (few to no armour breaches)...
even with no ammo left i know what i'd rather ride... and if you drop the ER Meds for ammo then that = 12 rounds...
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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Karagin
02/15/10 06:17 AM
80.149.45.102
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Right on target, each Gauss in my design as only 8 shots, thus after eight rounds of firing it is out of ammo. That is if I got the chance to fire non stop for eight rounds.
I like the medium for back up to the ER PPC.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Zandel_Corrin
02/15/10 06:22 AM
203.208.78.129
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true your not likely (that is if your opponent is any good) to get 8 straight rounds of clear fire to and from your target... the jump ability of the rhino *could* come in handy but at such slow speeds i doubt that.
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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CYBRN4CR
02/15/10 09:58 PM
71.236.221.45
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Well, after waiting a turn to let my heatsinks cool me off, what you said made me think, once again.
Taking a look at the numbers, I realized some things:
Rhino: 15 dam/wep * 3 wep * 24 rounds = 1080 damage at extreme range for 24 rounds (360 for 8 rounds)
Crusher: 15 dam/wep * 5 wep * 8 rounds + 15 dam/wep * 1 wep * 16 rounds = 600 + 240 damage = 840 damage at extreme range for 24 rounds with the ability to fire for longer with the ERPPC.
This is not counting the extra medium laser damages.
Now if we take Zandel's suggestion for the Crusher:
15 dam/wep * 5 wep * 12 rounds + 15 dam/wep * 1 wep * 12 rounds = 900 + 180 damage = 1080 damage at extreme range for 24 rounds with the ability to fire for longer with just the ERPPC.
Without factoring in backup weapons and other components, on a purely empty and flat terrain, the Crusher can deal more damage upfront, possibly taking out anywhere from at worst a mech and a half of equal tonnage to at best 40 mechs with all headshots, before the gausses run out. Then after that it's all up to luck with the ERPPC.
Mine spreads the damage out over time. After 24 rounds, while it could still be a part of the battle, that is not its optimal scenario. After 24 rounds it would start heading back to base, or mopping up what's left.
Now certainly the Crusher would "crush" my Rhino faster, and can be in the battle longer, but at that point which design keeps to the personality of the original? Mine keeps the 3 big guns on a big mech with jump jets theme, while the Crusher truly is a power player's mech.
I stand by my convictions. With ammo and with this design. This proved it.
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Zandel_Corrin
02/15/10 10:45 PM
123.2.140.247
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The BIG diff here is that YOUR design is an Inner Sphere sort of design while Karagins is a Clan design... the clans do not care for 'moping up' and the like... there trials are FAST and deadly so upfront damage is more important than battlefield longevity... at least it was till they had to deal with the inner sphere.
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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Karagin
02/16/10 12:03 AM
80.149.45.102
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You are right the mech is a power mech, it was built to do what it's name says. Your having tons of extra doesn't prove anything and again using a computer game to fight out the battle doesn't prove squat. As we have been trying to get you to understand, you need to play in a game versus a real human, on a board with all that goes with it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/16/10 12:03 AM
80.149.45.102
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Thank you for point out the Tech difference and for again explaining to him how the Clans work.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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CYBRN4CR
02/16/10 01:45 AM
71.236.221.45
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*sigh* ALRIGHT. I modified the design. It's got 16 shots of ammo per gauss rifle, and two extra ER Med Lasers. Is is it better now?
Code:
Stone Rhino Custom 2 100 tons Clan TW
Movement: 3/5/3 Engine: 300 XL Heat Sinks: 15 [30]
Internal: 152 (Endo Steel) Armor: 307/307 HD: 3 9 CT: 31 50 ( 12) RT: 21 34 ( 8) LT: 21 34 ( 8) RA: 17 34 LA: 17 34 RL: 21 42 LL: 21 42
Gauss Rifle [LA] 1 Heat Gauss Rifle [RA] 1 Heat Gauss Rifle [LT] 1 Heat ER Medium Laser [LT] 5 Heat ER Medium Laser [LT] 5 Heat ER Medium Laser [LT] 5 Heat ER Medium Laser [RT] 5 Heat ER Medium Laser [RT] 5 Heat ER Medium Laser [RT] 5 Heat
Gauss Ammo (8) [LA] Gauss Ammo (8) [LA] Gauss Ammo (8) [RT] Gauss Ammo (8) [LT] Gauss Ammo (8) [RA] Gauss Ammo (8) [RA]
ECM Suite [HD]
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Karagin
02/16/10 03:25 AM
80.149.45.102
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Then your test is void, either test it as built or give up and take the hint that your mechs are not built to be used in the actual game, they work for a computer simulation and only for that.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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CYBRN4CR
02/16/10 04:24 AM
71.236.221.45
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I've already tested it without having to use MegaMek. I have Zandel to thank for that.
And yes, I will admit that my originals are meant for a computer simulation, not the actual game.
This Trial of Grievance is over, quiaff?
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Karagin
02/16/10 05:36 AM
80.149.45.102
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If you are realizing that then future posting should reflect that.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Zandel_Corrin
02/16/10 06:52 AM
203.208.78.129
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I actually have to wonder why you changed this design at all... the stock Clan Stone Rhino is quite a formidable mech.
Unless your thinking of something i'm not... got the stock specs? mind posting them?
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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CYBRN4CR
02/16/10 08:05 AM
71.236.221.45
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I mainly wanted to give it a loadout that reflects what it looks like it equips. In the stock loadout it has two gausses, one in each torso and two large pulse lasers, one on each arm, with a small pulse laser in the head.
Here is the link: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Stone_Rhino
Since those arms and the torso mounted gun look like gauss rifles, I exchanged the two pulses for a third gauss rifle. Also keeping to my conversion pattern, I gave it an XL engine (which some variants DO mount) which gave me extra tonnage to give the third gauss its ammo, more armor, an ECM suite, and a nice barrage of ER mediums.
Here is the stock Rhino, in my usual format.
Code:
Stone Rhino SERO 100 tons Clan TW
Movement: 3/5/3 Engine: 300 Heat Sinks: 10 [20]
Internal: 152 Armor: 288/307 HD: 3 9 CT: 31 46 ( 15) RT: 21 27 ( 14) LT: 21 27 ( 14) RA: 17 32 LA: 17 32 RL: 21 36 LL: 21 36
Large Pulse Laser [LA] 10 Heat Large Pulse Laser [RA] 10 Heat Gauss Rifle [LT] 1 Heat Gauss Rifle [RT] 1 Heat Small Pulse Laser [HD] 2 Heat
Gauss Ammo (8) [LT] Gauss Ammo (8) [LT] Gauss Ammo (8) [RT] Gauss Ammo (8) [RT]
BV: 3,001 Cost: 10,512,000 Cbills
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Karagin
02/16/10 08:18 AM
80.149.45.102
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Okay is it is using Endo or Ferro?
This does reflect the pictures some what.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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CYBRN4CR
02/16/10 08:22 AM
71.236.221.45
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The stock uses neither Endo or Ferro. I gave it Endo in mine.
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Karagin
02/16/10 09:08 AM
80.149.45.102
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You may want to include that extra bit of useful info in the stats you post, it helps.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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CYBRN4CR
02/16/10 09:18 AM
71.236.221.45
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Well if you want THAT, then I have to go to TDB format, which really gets wigged out when I paste it.
But here it is. It doesn't have the fluff as apparently that's how it came, but that's why I posted the wiki link.
Code:
SERO Stone Rhino
Chassis: Unknown Power Plant: Unknown 300 Cruising Speed: 32.25 Maximum Speed: 53.75 Jump Jets: Unknown Jump Capacity: 90 meters Armor: Unknown with CASE Armament: 2 Large Pulse Lasers 1 Small Pulse Laser 2 Gauss Rifles Manufacturer: Unknown Primary Factory: Unknown Communications System: Unknown Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown
SERO Stone Rhino
Technology Base: - Clan - Level 2 Equipment Mass Internal Structure: 10 Engine: 300 19 Walking MP: 3 Running MP: 5 Jumping MP: 3 Heat Sinks: 10(20) - Double 0 Gyro: 3 Cockpit: 3 Armor Factor: 288 18
Internal Armor Structure Value Head 3 9 Center Torso 31 46 Center Torso(rear) 15 R/L Torso 21 27 R/L Torso(rear) 14 R/L Arm 17 32 R/L Leg 21 36
Weapons and Ammo Location Critical Tonnage Large Pulse Laser LA 2 6 Gauss Rifle LT 6 12 Gauss Rifle Ammo LT 2 2 Jump Jet LL 1 2 Jump Jet RL 1 2 Gauss Rifle RT 6 12 Gauss Rifle Ammo RT 2 2 Large Pulse Laser RA 2 6 Jump Jet CT 1 2 Small Pulse Laser H 1 1
Unless you were referring to the fact that I missed mentioning that I needed Endo to fit in the rest of the components in the post earlier, yes I did miss that. That was an error of mine, but it is mentioned in the original stats I posted of my design that it had Endo.
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Karagin
02/16/10 09:25 AM
80.149.45.102
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May I suggest you get a copy of Heavy Metal Pro, it is the official Designer Program for Battletech as is current up to the last rule book.
www.heavymetalpro.com
It is worth getting and if you haven't noticed The Drawing Board is flawed in how it does the armor weights and thus most folks do not use it any more.
And yes posting all of the stats for the mechs, as I said before, helps out, because we can see that it has Ferro or Endo or if an hand actuator is missing as well as cost and total critical slots used etc...all of which is important.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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CYBRN4CR
02/16/10 09:33 AM
71.236.221.45
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The fact you say it's current up to the last rule book intrigues me. Does it have pretty much everything in Tac Ops? I assume so, as that is what you are saying.
If so, then I might consider the investment. I've had to correct many a mech with FF armor because it was one point too heavy for the chassis once imported to MegaMek. Plus, it doesn't have all the extra stuff in Tac Ops.
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Karagin
02/16/10 09:42 AM
80.149.45.102
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You can get all of the new weapons, it allows you input anything weapon wise into the program, the full blown update is coming, Rick is working on it and soon it should be out.
It is current up to Total War. It has ALL of the stuff from Tactical Handbook, The Handbooks, MaxTech, Unbound and other sourcebooks. So everything you mentioned is there, plus folks have entered in the weapons as they have come out in the other books, go to site, join the boards and as for the file and folks will help you out.
It is less then cost of a DVD and offers far more enjoyment and you get a bonus, all your mechs can work in Mega Mek, one of the neat features, or so I have been told.
No kidding, did I mention that The Drawing Board had a flaw in regards to how it did armor weights? Yes I think I did mention that. Heavy Metal has a support team, in fact it has a lot of support, seriously you need to get it. You have seen how I post the stats, that is normal and official stats and thus all the info about the mech is there.
Really invest in all of the programs, wait for the update to HMPRO6 and then you will have everything you need and be caught up on everything, PLUS a bonus, you might get to know some folks who can meet in or around your area and would welcome a new player into their group, thus allowing you to learn more about the board game and make new friends, which is the best thing about this game.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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CYBRN4CR
02/16/10 09:47 AM
71.236.221.45
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Sounds good to me, Karagin.
What's the ETA so far on HMPRO6?
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Prince_of_Darkness
02/16/10 10:53 AM
205.202.120.216
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Quote:
The fact you say it's current up to the last rule book intrigues me. Does it have pretty much everything in Tac Ops? I assume so, as that is what you are saying.
If so, then I might consider the investment. I've had to correct many a mech with FF armor because it was one point too heavy for the chassis once imported to MegaMek. Plus, it doesn't have all the extra stuff in Tac Ops.
HMP is outdated; Rick has been saying that HMP 6 will come out ever since Techmanual, and so far we have not seen a single screenshot OR piece of evidence of it's existence. In fact, Rick commented several times that the plasma weapons have forced him to build HMP from scratch, and that was back in 2007 (!).
Rick only has one "real" forum, which are the HMP forums. There, you will HAVE to post every design in HMP; posting it up in any other designer (SSW, for instance) will get you banned. None of the members there code for HMP, and the forum is relatively dead with only a few posts a day.
Meanwhile, SSW has over three forums, all of which are extremely active- Solaris 7 and the actual Classic Battletech website, mainly. The designer, Justin Bengston, has several people from both websites helping him code and troubleshoot, and most issues with new releases are fixed within a few days- the last bug (present in SSW 6.4.1) took just a few days to fix (resulting in the present version, 6.4.2) and clearly shows the progress of the team. You can find the entire thread over on the Solaris7.com forums; it's stickied at the top with over 30 pages where you can see it's genesis. HMP has had that armor bug for years, and Rick hasn't done anything about it.
Even CBT and the designs the moderators make are using SSW. Since it's cheap, can do all the abilities of HMP (and more!) and is so much more up-to-date, it is the most logical choice.
EDIT:
And no, HMP does not have all the stuff from TacOps. The best it's got are some of the guns with mocked-up BV and stats.
Edited by Prince_of_Darkness (02/16/10 10:54 AM)
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Karagin
02/16/10 11:30 AM
80.149.45.102
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Rick last said soon, he is working on it, and we should see it pretty soon. Meanwhile as I said you can get the weapons files and most of the other extras are already there in the program.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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