Design Software falling by the road ?

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Rotwang
12/30/14 05:36 AM
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HMP hasn't been updated since there was a Holy Roman Emperor, SSW had a minor bug fix in September, but little else, MML seems to give odd results and Remlab is still in the early stages.

Most of the older software is either hopelessly outdated or refuses to work on newer machines.

Battletech is getting to be extremely complex with Colossal mechs and the new LAM rules, and it's getting harder to make all the small details work. Making a mech by hand/spreadsheet is becoming a major chore because there is always a detail that's hard to figure out correctly.

But at the moment the software is not following ...
Karagin
12/30/14 01:05 PM
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Rick is still working on HMP, granted it is out of date but you can get the new weapons into the program with an update found on the HMP page.

As for the other programs, they are not user friendly and are not even official, and given that these are side projects for the folks making them, well I am not expecting them to be fully devoted to things.

With the changes to the game and the new rules and the loss of the simple yet challenging rule set of the game, we are seeing a turn to a clone of Warhammer 40K as far rules go if nothing else.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
TigerShark
01/04/15 01:48 AM
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I've yet to see any proof Rick is working on HMP. He openly admitted he's stopped working on it, in fact. That and it doesn't take 8 years to write a program. lol

Rick: "But yeah, it's been a long time, and I've not said much here, mostly, to be honest, because I'm embarrassed that it's taken so long. And, to be honest, THERE HAVE NOT BEEN ANY REAL UPDATES RECENTLY. I still intend to complete the program, but real world concerns have trumped my programming time and inclination. I won't insult you, or myself, by giving an estimated completion date; I just don't know."

So I know there are fans of his work who are pushing for support, but it's lip service at this point. Nothing is getting done and nothing WILL be done, most likely. The excuses about 'updates' are rubbish. Programs have patches. You know... the same ones he's been making for the previous version? lol If it was complete, he'd publish it and offer patches when rules or BV errata occur.

He admitted earlier that he bit off more than he could chew. Chose a concept which was time consuming and just lost interest. So that's fair. People don't always finish projects. But after 8 years, turning the thing over to another developer should be in order.


Hmm. And the other programs aren't "user-friendly?" Could you explain..? What are you haven't trouble figuring out? I and every MegaMek user have been running MegaMekLab and Solaris Skunkwerks for years. Seems to work fine for making MTF files and printing record sheets for table top.
Karagin
01/04/15 11:23 PM
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Yes I can explain, SSW has a clunky interface that does not work well, it is not simple to install and over all isn't set up to be simple to use.

I am glad you can speak for every one else who uses MegaMek and SSW, I doubt very much that your statement is actual fact, but that is your opinion, my opinion is compared to programs like Mechworks or HMP they are not user friendly and are hard to install and use in manner that is enjoyable and simple.

HMP is still usable, and as I point out, there are updates that include the new weapons for use with in the program, I guess you missed that part there TigerShark, in fact Rick made a point of put it on the forums and the main page. You can also talk to Merdon Pryde he has the files as well to share on his site.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
TigerShark
01/05/15 10:03 PM
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SSW = download a ZIP file. Unzip the file. Double click on the java file and open. lol Yes. SUPER difficult to install. Haha. Something tells me you've never even used it. I always get a good laugh out of these posts.
TigerShark
01/05/15 10:07 PM
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And again, I don't care about updates to an out-dated program. You can update Windows 3.x if you want to; doesn't mean it's still competitive. If he can update THAT program, he could have updated HMP 6. I think it's more that you don't bother to step out of your box and try anything else. Judging from your inability to unzip a file, I can see why.

And yes, I can speak for them. Since HMP is almost beyond being supported by the current versions and SSW / MMLab are the only other two programs people use. If there are more, none of the groups I've come into contact with seem to apply them to their games. And if you have any knowledge otherwise, do tell.
Karagin
01/05/15 10:56 PM
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You can not speak for them, but it's your opinion based on your group and in my area and others I know I find more still use HMP with the updates and find it far easier to use.

Something tells me that you will continue to bash Rich since he has not dropped everything and worked solely on HMP6 and something tells me also that you are not going to see or even listen to the fact that the program is far from dead.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
TigerShark
01/06/15 01:07 AM
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As usual, you're basing your findings on a voice in your head. Care to ask Rick himself what he has completed on the program? He doesn't seem to answer messages on his own board and has stated, openly, that he stopped working on it. But that must have been a fake Rick.
TigerShark
01/06/15 01:08 AM
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Also, you've stated that you don't use MegaMek before, when I asked you for a game. So what exactly would you know about it? Go to MegaMek's boards "megamek.info/forums" and ask them if anyone still uses HMP for MegaMek gaming.
ghostrider
01/06/15 12:20 PM
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I thought megamek could run a game.
If this is true, then it would have to use it's own mech lab program.
I don't think it would use information from another lab program.
But this is an assumption since I haven't used it, but most programs, of this sort, seem to use only the program IT is with.
Now this is based off things like modifying a mech in mechwarrior 2 game does not seem to transfer to mechwarrior 3. You physically have to remake it.

And the idea about user friendly problem here is definition. Using and installing it are different monsters alot of people don't take into account when claiming one is user friendly or not.
TigerShark
01/06/15 04:54 PM
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@ Ghostrider, Solaris Skunkwerks has the ability to output MTF files. (Those are used for Mechs). Its vee program can output BLK files, but they're incomplete. You still need to hand-edit them. Not too difficult if you can open an "equipment.txt" file and type in some tags.

MMLab is "hooked" into MegaMek, so it pulls an equipment list directly from the equipment.txt file. It's more 'user-friendly' for the express application of putting out files for use in MegaMek.
Karagin
01/06/15 10:42 PM
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Fair Point ghostrider.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Akalabeth
02/04/15 02:25 AM
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SSW's interface is great in my opinion, but the java-based program can be difficult to install if only because it is not a traditional .exe program.

I've yet to be able to get SAW to work.

HMP is largely abandon-ware. The author doesn't seem interested in doing anything more than updates to the program. Given the prevalence of free alternatives I wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't motivated to work more on it.


Edited by Akalabeth (02/04/15 02:27 AM)
TigerShark
07/01/15 10:29 PM
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Quote:
Karagin writes:

You can not speak for them, but it's your opinion based on your group and in my area and others I know I find more still use HMP with the updates and find it far easier to use.

Something tells me that you will continue to bash Rich since he has not dropped everything and worked solely on HMP6 and something tells me also that you are not going to see or even listen to the fact that the program is far from dead.



Well, it's been 6 months. Any updates from Rick? Dying to know..!
Niall
08/24/15 01:26 AM
213.233.137.200

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Time for Rick to pass on the baton to somebody who cares. Haven't heard of anyone using HMP in years - it's pretty much abandonware at this stage. It's mental that he is still charging money for this outdated program.

All the Megamek campaign server players have used Solaris Skunk Werks for years at this stage - easy to install, use and keeps up with the rules. It is a far superior product to one one that is nearly nine years out of date and fails to incorporate whole areas of the new rules.
Karagin
08/24/15 09:09 AM
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HMP is not abandonware, in fact many still do use it and with folks adding in the new weapons it has lot of use still.

Megamek IS NOT BATTLETECH, it is a third party item, same with SSW. So until CGL cancels Rick's license HMP is still the official Design software.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
TigerShark
08/27/15 04:27 AM
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MegaMek has the exactly same rules coded as they exist in the books. It's a bit like saying, "playing chess online isn't chess."

Yes, it is unfortunately the official design software. Holding onto the license at this point is feeling more like a grudge than anything else. Or at least it's how I'm interpreting the comments on the forum. Like "it was difficult for me to get this, and I'm not giving it up cheaply." That's pretty much where we're at.


Edited by TigerShark (08/27/15 04:39 AM)
happyguy49
08/27/15 05:07 AM
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Slight tangent hijack.. is there a design software that can do Tripods (including sub-100 ton tripods), Colossal mechs, superheavy tanks? SSW has tripod option, but it doesn't appear to be implemented correctly (clicking "Tripod" doesn't increase internal structure weight, for instance.)
Retry
08/27/15 07:15 PM
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The most recent Megameklab software does Tripods of all weight classes, IS Colossal mechs, and superheavy tanks.
Bad_Syntax
09/22/15 12:07 AM
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I hate to revive an old thread, but I'm going to do it anyway....

I announced a couple weeks ago I was going to write a windows app to design everything. I already had a website that validated everything and made record sheets for most stuff, but this will be a complete rewrite in .NET 4.5 so it'll run on windows 7/10/mac parallels/etc.

I've been posting weekly updates on my blog (link below) as well as *almost* daily updates on my facebook group (links a couple of posts down on that same blog).

I've gotten very little interest though, but I don't have a lot of following and the official battletech forum moderators have a personal vendetta against me so it isn't like I'll be able to get the word out much.

However, I am doing it, will finish it, and am far far closer than anybody else in the world I know of. I'm inputting IOBeta stuff this week (coding was the first week), but will make quick progress right after when I jump back into the code.

Anyway, there are some folks that are working on this. Personally I want to be able to make things like mobile structures, buildings, support vehicles, and infantry platoons (made one of these before) which nobody seems to like as much.
Nic JansmaAdministrator
10/07/15 11:21 PM
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Great seeing you make progress Bad_Syntax. Here's the link for all those interested: http://btengineer.blogspot.com/
-- NicJ
TigerShark
01/06/16 03:19 PM
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Well, it's 2016. Guessing no HeavyMetalPro updates? lol
Poxinabox
01/17/16 11:07 PM
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As my battletech group is becoming more engrossed in the game, an updated easy-to-use software package would be awesome. So far we're using SSW and SAW, which have been SUPER easy for first-time users (considered by us all to be user-friendly, and no issues 'installing').

However as we get deeper into it (and having a full-blown campaign that may even lead to use of the RPG system), we find we're in need of a designer that will let us make Aerospace fighters and Super Heavy 'mechs. Any design program that will accommodate those while being up-to-date on rules will have my support (vocal and financial), and that of my group.

HMP, unfortunately, does not currently fall under the up-to-date aspect and so my group isn't willing to support it. So far we've done a pen-and-paper Superheavy and just used a few stock Aerospace record sheets, but those won't hold us long.

Is there anything currently that can do proper record sheets that goes beyond SSW such as Aerospace especially, but also maybe Superheavies and possibly LAMs in the future? Or is that still in limbo/unknown?
Karagin
01/18/16 11:12 AM
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HMP offers the ability to include the new weapons, WHICH if folks would go to the main page and read has been done by others and so you can build mechs using the newer stuff.

Folks have used the custom weapons editor to include the new weapons and some of the other items to use. Granted it could be better, but it shows that if you actually play around with the program you can get it to do what you need.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Retry
01/18/16 12:52 PM
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...You didn't answer his question at all.

Unfortunately I don't know any program that allows you to design legal superheavies, LAMs, or Aerospace *and* create proper record sheets for them. I know one or two that does one or the other, but none that does both for all of them.

I know REMLAB can do Aerospace designs and record sheets, but it's a bit buggy and rather ancient. Might make a decent interim measure.

MegaMekLab can make all of them, but I don't think it has a function to print record sheets.
Poxinabox
01/18/16 10:54 PM
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Thank you for the insight, Karagin, but unfortunately that wasn't what I was looking for. SSW does what I need for Battlemechs through-and-through, including all the weapons I know of in the books I own. Adding these weapons myself into a program that is, simply put, out-of-date is not in my interest with such a complete alternative.

Retry, thank you very much for the suggestion. MegaMekLab can indeed do all including Aerospace, which was my biggest concern; I did have an odd issue printing in that it wouldn't print until I restarted the program, but after retrying just once I have my Aero record sheets - and they are every bit as canonical-looking as those from SSW! Minus the fluff image... for some reason that isn't working. No big deal.

MML will definitely tide my group over until something more complete comes up. We only have the two Superheavies, after all, and the interest in LAMs hasn't quite yet reached 'I wanna buy this!' status yet.

Thanks again for the replies, guys!
Karagin
01/19/16 06:49 AM
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You don't have to add in any thing, it has already been done by others, as I said the link is on the Main HMPro page for the weapons and such. And seeing how SSW IS NOT an official BT product, well, I will leave that part for you decide what you are supporting.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Poxinabox
01/19/16 12:28 PM
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I'm supporting that which is most useful and easy to use, especially since a couple of my groupmates are first-timers.

I understand that, from this series of posts alone, you're a staunch supporter of Heavy Metal Pro (which isn't just fine, it's great). However, as I understand it, HMP is sorely outdated with no updates coming in sight (hence the point of the OP). Heavy Metal Aero is listed on the site to have been updated last in September of 2008. I don't pay for old and outdated programs if someone is putting out new, updated, and possibly better programs somewhere else.

SSW may not be the official BT product, but it's been so simply and easy to use that within a month of downloading it (for free), two friends decided it was the game for them and bought TW and TacOps at the local hobby store, which IS official, and they may not have done so if it hadn't been for the ease of access in figuring out their own custom designs. Further, I find it odd you'd take the stance that HMP ought to be sought out (even excluding the lack of updates) over third-party software because it's official, then go on to say it is made usable by third parties. One way or another, this official product is inferior to my needs.

Until HMP is:
- up to date on its own as a complete purchasable package
- is as easy to use as, say, SSW or MML
- contains all or at least most of the types of armoured units (Mech, Vehicle, LAM, Aero, Superheavy, Tripod, Proto) that my group has expressed interest in playing

then I'm afraid the OP is entirely correct that the official design software has gone by the wayside, and new(ish) players like myself and my friends need to seek out something else, such as SSW/MML and as we progress into greater details possibly BTengineer as put forth by Bad_Sytnax.
Karagin
01/19/16 02:04 PM
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HMP is far easier to use and better supported then SSW.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Poxinabox
01/19/16 02:07 PM
206.116.4.63

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I'll have to take your word for it, but I find it difficult to imagine anything easier than literally just opening the program, clicking a couple times, and printing a sheet. And that still doesn't take into account the other things I mentioned in my previous post.
TigerShark
01/19/16 06:58 PM
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MegaMekLab really has the most "up-to-date" equipment, though it can be a bit buggy and may not supply the record sheets you need. Problem is that some unit types aren't supported. But, on the plus side, what IS supported can usually be exported to MegaMek.

Sounds like your campaign is table top though, am I right?
Poxinabox
01/19/16 08:22 PM
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It is, yes. It's been a great way to get us all hanging out for a day, painting minis, making terrain, and having a great time with a great game. I think if we were to go with Megamek we'd lose some of what we're liking about it.

Now that I've got MML to play with in addition to SSW, I think that'll do us for a good long while. Some of my players are completely new to tabletop wargaming, never mind just Battletech, so these programs help a lot. I'd still be interested to see how this kind of software keeps up in the near future.
TigerShark
01/19/16 08:40 PM
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Same here. It's rough trying to keep around good, Java-savvy developers. We should be thankful for the guys we have.
Karagin
01/19/16 09:10 PM
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Pretty much that is what you do with HMP, but if you like SSW, hey great, I will stay with HMP series.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
ghostrider
01/19/16 09:17 PM
98.150.102.177

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Wow.
I remember the time that using a piece of paper, a pencil and a calculator was the way to figure out how to make a new unit.
Oh wait. That is still how I do it.

Using what works doing what you want is always something people want. If HMP was up to date, I would say support that as they have done the legal things to be the official program, but having it work with the newer things may really cause those to stop using it or even thinking about it.
If you can get them to do an update, I would be more supportive, but if it doesn't do what you need it to now, I don't see to many options like sticking with it.

Still have to get out the books and do this the old fashioned way. Now was that rounding up for the engine weight or truncate to the nearest whole number...
Poxinabox
01/19/16 11:00 PM
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Pen, paper & calculator is how I had to come up with the Superheavy we have marauding around. While I find it fun, I do like the swiftness and accuracy of the programs and I'd rather get my new players invested in the gameplay before requiring them to dive into the gritty stuff with a calculator. Heck, more than half of us don't even use dice anymore, we use the BT Dice Roller app. :P How lazy is that?

I'm very thankful for the work that's been put into SSW, especially as a "side project." That's some wonderful dedication. I've no doubt a lot of work also went into HMP and MML; my original point was that I would support a product that is everything I need, including being up-to-date. It isn't like choosing a team or anything, and I apologize if I somehow made it sound that way, Karagin. No sleight was meant against your chosen program.
ghostrider
01/20/16 01:51 PM
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I agree. It is sooo much easier and quicker to just put in a few numbers, or even better, just push a symbol into place and let a program deal with alot of it.

Now not using dice? That is part of the fun of the game. Well except when you roll the dice into the figures or anything on the board and knock it over.

If you haven't seen yet, a few people, like myself, prefer to keep it as close to canon as possible. I don't mind home games using house rules. Some solve issues or let you do something that is kind of a grey area. We get a little vocal when people suggest getting away from that while posting things, as most of them don't tell you it is outside the canon rules.
Nothing horribly bad, but it does make anyone not knowing suspect to thinking that is in the rules.

Supporting a program that has obtained the official ok to be the official software is part of why Karagin is pushing HMP. I agree with them on it, but as I said. If the program isn't up to date, and doesn't do what it needs to, then using what does seems best. I don't think any of them charges for the use of it, so I will assume all of it is side projects and can understand why it is not a big deal to get them updated. Not liking the idea, but understand it.
TigerShark
01/20/16 02:13 PM
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SSW and MML filled a void left by Rick. If he'd have gotten around to HMP 6, pretty sure SSW wouldn't need to exist.

And I don't play tabletop any longer. Can't find a group within 30 miles. I'd have to drive into Los Angeles, and I can't even begin to tell you what a nightmare that is on a weekend. And that's the same for a lot of people, especially those in rural areas. So having an up-to-date program which can be exported into MegaMek is crucial.

Games on MW servers are down, but pick-up games haven't changed a stitch. So we're seeing anywhere from 200 - 300 games/week in campaign servers and probably that many in pick-up games, privately. We definitely need a functional design program.

I get that HMP can be modified with custom weapons, custom equipment, etc. for a record sheet. But...

(a) How often am I going to use custom units at my table?
(b) I already have sheets for common units.
(c) I can pencil/paper/photocopy any units from new TROs on a blank form.
TigerShark
12/13/16 02:08 PM
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Annual 'bump' ;-)
happyguy49
12/14/16 02:06 AM
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Yes :/ oh well. Perhaps the new game will cause a resurgence in interest in classic BT, then someone might update an existing program or create a new one. One can hope.
ghostrider
12/14/16 01:03 PM
66.74.61.223

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I believe they are making these programs and not charging for them. So it tends to fall to the back burner in life.
Not suggesting you tell them to charge for them, as I am a cheap skate. Kind of forced, but still wouldn't buy them if I had the money.

Honestly, it doesn't have to be classic BT. Making one for the current era would have the stuff for the old style. Granted, they may not have them made up in different eras, but that would mean a little work on our part.
(what? I can't just point and click to make this? That's garbage)
Rotwang
03/07/17 07:10 PM
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One thing is that all the current tech options tend to make the programming an increasingly tough job and what may start as a labour of love can turn into a nightmare if you want every option done right.
TigerShark
03/13/17 01:43 PM
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MMLab seems to be able to handle that just fine.
TigerShark
04/12/17 08:24 PM
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FYI - You won't find any sub-forum about HeavyMetalPro 6.0 on their forums anymore.
Bad_Syntax
07/09/17 01:43 PM
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While the design portion of the code is pretty difficult, when written correctly it is just a database with a bunch of mandatory inclusions and exclusions on equipment. Some stuff like MG Arrays and Jump packs can get pretty complex, but doable.

The #1 issue with design software is the lack of support on the side of CGL. Peter Smith contacted me in 2010 about writing some design software. We went back and forth a few times, but when I submitted my request for required errata it simply died.

While humans can look at something and just assume a rule and be correct and fine, computers have no such ability. Computers have to have everything defined and hard, not loose and soft. I had literally hundreds of questions on equipment specifications, inconsistencies, missing data, and so forth that needed to be answered to write the software.

Anyway, now you are stuck with MMLab, which lets you make mechs/tanks (but without ALL the options) and I think battle armor.

I was working on something that let you make everything in universe. That included mobile structures, bases, planets, buildings, aerospace/advanced aerospace, support vehicles, etc.

But I, like apparently a lot of the community, had just gotten away from battletech more and more lately, just like many of us an tabletop games in general. Just too easy to play a PC game, or throw together a quick game of Zombicide or some other kickstarter. While I'd love to play again, just not sure its worth the time commitment anymore.

That being said, I do still have all my code, a decent chunk of some design software written, and my database with equipment and ~7000 units in it. If somebody was serious and had the ability to write something hit me up and I can probably help out.
TigerShark
07/14/17 07:52 PM
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That's probably the core of the problem, right there. Nobody figures it's worth the time, as games are increasingly difficult to find, as are the products. It appears to be a dead game to outside observers and casual players. Only the die hards care enough to keep it bobbing face-down in the water. (Much different than simply "afloat").
Wrangler
07/16/17 09:27 PM
24.34.162.106

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Megalab is only know currently updated program i know of. There was couple random programs mentioned on bg.battletech forums.
When it hits the fan, make sure your locked, loaded, and ready to go!
Daedster
07/16/17 09:46 PM
108.75.106.135

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From what I can see CGL is the big problem here. I was in the HMPro6 test group and it was pretty much close to redy to go when CGL became unresponsive to questions. It felt like an "office politics" issue. Oh well.
Wrangler
07/16/17 10:14 PM
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Wow. When was that?
When it hits the fan, make sure your locked, loaded, and ready to go!
TigerShark
07/16/17 11:49 PM
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What "questions?" Rick has stated quite often that he stopped working on it because the errata was coming too often. He also claimed he had to "start from scratch" at certain points.
TigerShark
01/19/18 01:11 AM
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This thread was started in 2014. It's now 2018. 4 years, no HMP 6. Convinced yet? ;-)
Wrangler
01/22/18 08:04 AM
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MegaLab is coming along. So i'm not worried about it. I lost faith in Rick years ago. If he was serious, didn't think he could do it himself. He should have brought in someone else to help straighten the thing up.
When it hits the fan, make sure your locked, loaded, and ready to go!
BootDisk
03/05/18 04:47 PM
71.14.85.117

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I've been toying around with making 'Mech construction using common spreadsheet software. I've got one working pretty well using rules from the Clan Invasion Era.

Most things are set in stone, and you can't mess them up:

You select if you are making a Clan or Inner Sphere 'Mech. I even have a setting for using the original 1/4 ton "fractional accounting" or the later version that rounds 'Mech hardware to half-tons.

You set your listed tonnage.

You decide whether or not you are using endo steel or ferro-fibrous.

'Mech tonnage decides the exact internal structure points for each section, and each section having a maximum armor factor of twice its structure points.

A simple function multiplies 'Mech tonnage by the desired walking speed, and it references a table to tell you which engine you have, and how much it weighs. Same for the Gyro.

Running Speed is a function of walking speed; Jump Capacity is simply counting the Jump Jets.

You put something in there to prevent "mixed tech", like heat sinks of different types. It also automatically makes Double Heat sinks take up 3 crits on an IS 'Mech or just 2 on a Clan 'Mech.

The weights for everything have really simple formulas associated with them. Before you start adding weapons, you see how much tonnage you have left. With each weapon or heat sink or jump jet you add, you see your remaining tonnage going down. When you have used up your tonnage and allocated mandatory equipment (endo steel,ferro-fibrous, and heat sinks that didn't fit in the engine), you press print and you have a record sheet. And, you can save your favorite designs and select them from a list.

The major problem I'm finding with a construction software project is that people want it to be IMPOSSIBLE to make a mistake using the program. If you make a program that is less than perfect, people are going to try and field flawed 'Mechs because "the program let me do it". I played A LOT of MechWarrior 2, and I spent A LOT of time designing custom 'Mechs in the lab. It was a pretty fair system, and I fielded anything the lab would let me. But for table top? If we could just promise to let people look at our designs and double check that they are fair before we play, we could have great software RIGHT NOW, and anyone can make their own design software that is easily updateable.
Retry
03/06/18 12:38 AM
64.189.130.11

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Quote:
I've been toying around with making 'Mech construction using common spreadsheet software. I've got one working pretty well using rules from the Clan Invasion Era.

Most things are set in stone, and you can't mess them up:

You select if you are making a Clan or Inner Sphere 'Mech. I even have a setting for using the original 1/4 ton "fractional accounting" or the later version that rounds 'Mech hardware to half-tons.

You set your listed tonnage.

You decide whether or not you are using endo steel or ferro-fibrous.

'Mech tonnage decides the exact internal structure points for each section, and each section having a maximum armor factor of twice its structure points.

A simple function multiplies 'Mech tonnage by the desired walking speed, and it references a table to tell you which engine you have, and how much it weighs. Same for the Gyro.

Running Speed is a function of walking speed; Jump Capacity is simply counting the Jump Jets.

You put something in there to prevent "mixed tech", like heat sinks of different types. It also automatically makes Double Heat sinks take up 3 crits on an IS 'Mech or just 2 on a Clan 'Mech.

The weights for everything have really simple formulas associated with them. Before you start adding weapons, you see how much tonnage you have left. With each weapon or heat sink or jump jet you add, you see your remaining tonnage going down. When you have used up your tonnage and allocated mandatory equipment (endo steel,ferro-fibrous, and heat sinks that didn't fit in the engine), you press print and you have a record sheet. And, you can save your favorite designs and select them from a list.

The major problem I'm finding with a construction software project is that people want it to be IMPOSSIBLE to make a mistake using the program. If you make a program that is less than perfect, people are going to try and field flawed 'Mechs because "the program let me do it". I played A LOT of MechWarrior 2, and I spent A LOT of time designing custom 'Mechs in the lab. It was a pretty fair system, and I fielded anything the lab would let me. But for table top? If we could just promise to let people look at our designs and double check that they are fair before we play, we could have great software RIGHT NOW, and anyone can make their own design software that is easily updateable.



Sounds perfectly functional for simple stuff, but why reinvent the wheel? Several design programs exist that possess more equipment options from the rulebooks and aren't as clunky to wield as a spreadsheet.

MegaMekLab comes to mind. The latest development release currently has the infrastructure for Dropship, Small Craft, Aerospace Fighter, ConvFighter, Biped & Quad & Tripod & Superheavy Battlemechs, Bimodal & Standard LAMs, Wheeled & Tracked Quadvees, Battle Armor, Infantry, Combat Vehicles, and a lot of L4 experimental tech. Also has a printing function that I've never used, which'd be vital for tabletop. It's a bit buggy but the Validation system integrated into both Megamek and Megameklab catches illegal designs and in the case of MM won't let you actually field them unless you specifically and intentionally enable an option to let you do so.

Since minimizing bugs seems to be your most important parameter I'd have to recommend the Stable release instead of the Developmental release. Has a lot less of the exotic stuff (Quadmechs,Dropships, conventional infantry features, etc.) but as a whole is less buggy.
BootDisk
03/12/18 04:09 PM
71.14.85.117

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I took a look at MekLab. I was using it for about 20 minutes with no problems when I hit some bugs. I use it a lot now, but more of a "double check" than "I trust it".

The reason I think we should re-invent the wheel is that we can make something that will always work and will always be update-able. We could add features as fast as we think of them, rather than waiting for years with our noses pressed up against the glass, saying, "I wish someone would fix that thing..."
csadn
03/15/18 10:59 PM
50.53.22.4

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If I knew anything about programming, I'd be doing something with Heavy Metal Pro....
CF

Oregon: The "Outworlds Alliance" of the United States of America
AmaroqStarwind
03/27/18 09:08 PM
174.235.19.144

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I've used SSW before, and it has some problems here and there.

Like, say you mess up when designing an OmniMech? You can't change any aspect of the main chassis without literally scrapping the whole thing, including any alternate configurations.

Also, the Design Quirks tab just vanishes completely when you start the app in Widescreen mode.

MegaMek has some problems too, like mixing in non-canon equipment with the canon stuff (such as Gauss Autocannons and Gauss AMS), and giving some canon items the wrong names (like labeling Improved Heavy Gauss Rifle as Railgun). It also only has you install a single Artemis module, regardless of how many missile launchers you have, or if they're different types.

What I really hope to have one day is a free tool sort of like Solaris or MegaMek, but officiaI, that way it would be more up to date and a lot less likely to get something wrong.

Since MechCommander 2 is open source, meanwhile, maybe somebody could restructure as well that to use actual BattleTech construction rules.
Discord: Amaroq the Kitsune#1092
Telegram: @Lycanphoenix
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TigerShark
03/28/18 12:41 PM
12.130.166.32

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(1) You can't edit a base chassis because it's never supposed to be edited. That's why it's an OmniMech. The configurations are the only parts of an Omni you change.

(2) There is no "Design Quirks" tab in Solaris Skunkwerks.

(3) MegaMek isn't a design program. I have no idea what you're talking about.

(4) MegaMek (the game engine) does include non-canon equipment and sorts it by equipment type. It's labeled as "Unofficial". You can choose, when selecting units, to filter out any tech level. i.e.: if you want to see only Introductory units, you highlight Introductory. If you want TW and Introductory, you highlight both. It's not mandatory that you include Unofficial units in your selection.
Retry
03/28/18 07:24 PM
64.189.130.11

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The IHGR and "Railgun" are two separate weapons, the first is in MML as an IS experimental weapon, the 2nd as an unofficial weapon that came from somewhere, maybe a magazine. It's not "mislabeled" as the Railgun is basically a non-canon weapon that's slightly better than the IHGR in many ways, and it requires one to intentionally select the tech level as "unofficial" for it to even show up. Similarly, non-canon weapons don't show up unless one specifically selects for it, so complaints about mixing canon and non-canon have to be chalked up to user error.
Karagin
03/29/18 10:51 AM
72.176.187.91

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Non-Canon weapons should not be shown in a canon list unless something is check off to show them, and legit programs will either put an * next to them or tell you at the top of the stats that said mech is using custom or non-canon weapons or equipment.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Retry
03/29/18 11:01 AM
64.189.130.11

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Quote:
Non-Canon weapons should not be shown in a canon list unless something is check off to show them



And that's how it works in MML.
Karagin
03/30/18 01:12 AM
72.176.187.91

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And yet again we see more mistake from that then do from oh say Heavy Metal.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
TigerShark
03/30/18 01:47 PM
12.130.166.32

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Quote:
Non-Canon weapons should not be shown in a canon list unless something is check off to show them, and legit programs will either put an * next to them or tell you at the top of the stats that said mech is using custom or non-canon weapons or equipment.


Considering you've not used MegaMekLab, I'm not sure why you keep talking about it. You're spreading disinformation. When told of the facts, you just reassert a previous statement. Why?

Open the program and use it. THEN come back and comment.
Daryldiaz
04/23/18 06:40 AM
107.175.13.218

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HMP is far easier to use and better supported then SSW.
AmaroqStarwind
04/25/18 05:01 PM
99.203.27.180

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I am trying to learn Python currently, so I might make an engine tonnage/rating calculator for different types of units and engines. Maybe it could eventually result in some lightweight design software for different platforms.

By the way, could somebody help me draw an interpolation/extrapolation curve for Fusion Engine weights? I'm having a lot of trouble nailing it down by hand, and Wolfram doesn't give me much flexibility with plotting curves.
Discord: Amaroq the Kitsune#1092
Telegram: @Lycanphoenix
MechEngine (Alpha) -- On Hiatus

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Edited by AmaroqStarwind (04/25/18 11:19 PM)
AmaroqStarwind
04/27/18 07:17 PM
99.203.155.29

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Well, I can see why there isn't a lot of BattleTech design software available. Learning to program is a very frustrating experience, especially when different editors seem to interpret the same instructions very differently.
Discord: Amaroq the Kitsune#1092
Telegram: @Lycanphoenix
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ghostrider
04/28/18 02:29 PM
66.74.61.223

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And to think. You are learning in an era of the graphic interface.
Back in the 80's the commands for one program did not even work with other programs for the same system, much less on a different system.
Had a bit of basic, back on the commadore64/appleII. Just to get the directory, used 2 different methods. Load "$" then list for commadore, while the apple was catelog. Then things went even more wrong from there.

But it seems there is more problems with the rules for the game causing almost as many issues. With windows, atleast you don't have to type out what file to move to what directory. ANY misspelling or improper punctuation meant it failed. Sometimes by putting it in a place you have no clue on.

And programing isn't that easy, especially if the person teaching you isn't proficient with it.
And debugging it. Oh lord, that was such a pain before the programs came out to help with that.
But then this was during the none plug and play era, where each card changed in a system had to have the bios and programs redone to use them. Monitor, printer, scanner and can't remember the last thing all wanting irq 3, and there was no such thing as time sharing with it. Grrr.
AmaroqStarwind
04/28/18 05:02 PM
13.84.155.127

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Well, I'm starting a thread for my Engine Calculator pretty soon. Be on the lookout.

Update: Submitted my latest version in the Designs subforum. Give it a look.
Discord: Amaroq the Kitsune#1092
Telegram: @Lycanphoenix
MechEngine (Alpha) -- On Hiatus

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Edited by AmaroqStarwind (04/28/18 07:44 PM)
AmaroqStarwind
04/30/18 07:20 PM
108.255.82.176

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Is nobody interested?
Discord: Amaroq the Kitsune#1092
Telegram: @Lycanphoenix
MechEngine (Alpha) -- On Hiatus

The Scientist Caste has determined that time travel is dishonorable.
Retry
04/30/18 08:19 PM
64.189.130.11

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Well, all it currently does is Battlemech engines, and that engine rating calculation consists of Tonnage*Walking MP. Not the most rigorous calculation.

It's a neat way to learn how to program stuff but as an actual tool there's no demand for it when things like MML and SSW can do the same things on a wider scale already, in addition to featuring the entire unit design thing.
AmaroqStarwind
04/30/18 09:53 PM
174.235.30.252

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I plan to make it a lot more feature complete in the future, and I also plan to make it cross platform. It's also open source, both so that features can be added more easily and so that bugs can be more quickly identified and corrected (it is my first program after all).

The latest version fixed the rounding errors, and introduced a definition to prevent oddball tonnages and engine ratings (not multiples of 5), but I did not actually implement that definition in the program because I don't think it is fair to treat 8-ton mechs as 10-ton mechs for the purposes of engine weight (not to mention that the rule for that was introduced in an April Fool's book, and would conflict with ProtoMechs)
Discord: Amaroq the Kitsune#1092
Telegram: @Lycanphoenix
MechEngine (Alpha) -- On Hiatus

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Edited by AmaroqStarwind (04/30/18 09:53 PM)
AmaroqStarwind
05/10/18 11:38 PM
108.255.82.176

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I've made quite a lot of progress on my engine calculator. Check it out!
http://www.sarna.net/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/183811/Main/183557/#Post183811
Discord: Amaroq the Kitsune#1092
Telegram: @Lycanphoenix
MechEngine (Alpha) -- On Hiatus

The Scientist Caste has determined that time travel is dishonorable.
TigerShark
10/17/18 06:08 PM
12.130.166.32

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No HMP6? ;-)

BTW How'd your mech design program go?
ATN082268
07/09/19 11:28 AM
174.253.5.242

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Quote:
No HMP6? ;-)



I was thinking the same thing
TigerShark
08/16/19 07:22 PM
12.130.166.32

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Well, this thread was started 5 years ago. So I'm guessing "never" can be confirmed. ;-)
TigerShark
08/27/20 03:02 PM
172.58.31.69

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Year 6. Poof!
Wrangler
08/27/20 06:20 PM
24.34.162.106

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Well at least Solar Skunk Works was resurrected again. I wish they go beyond just mech stuff. We need everything.

MegaMek Lab is good and going on great. it still has some ways to go.
When it hits the fan, make sure your locked, loaded, and ready to go!
TigerShark
08/28/20 01:30 PM
104.49.175.97

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It (MML) does have a long way to go. But at least it's 100% current with its data. SSW is still a fine program for older designs and does have a Vehicle program. But, unfortunately, those ancillary programs won't make record sheets.
Karagin
08/29/20 01:10 PM
70.118.172.64

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I have no issues with HMP and what can't be added in can be done by hand. Now what we all could do is figure out how to get Rick back on it, or convince CGL to get a new official program going.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
TigerShark
09/24/20 12:33 PM
104.49.175.97

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It's not about "convincing." Rick acquired the licensing and it was an unfortunate mistake for the owners at the time. (FASA, I think) It looked promising, but there's no way they could've known it would be abandoned. The only way to move forward is another "official" design program. And I'm not sure they'll go that way ever again.


Edited by TigerShark (09/24/20 12:37 PM)
ATN082268
09/24/20 08:17 PM
72.243.210.91

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Quote:
It's not about "convincing." Rick acquired the licensing and it was an unfortunate mistake for the owners at the time. (FASA, I think) It looked promising, but there's no way they could've known it would be abandoned. The only way to move forward is another "official" design program. And I'm not sure they'll go that way ever again.



While it depends on how a contract is written, there must be some stuff in there like performance clauses, dates to be renewed, etc.
Notsonoble
09/25/20 12:42 AM
47.218.57.196

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It'd be nice to know if Rick's license had a term on it, or if it's indefinite.

Also, wasn't it actually from MSStudios since they had the software/computer game part of the IP at the time?
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