Requiem
05/28/21 06:10 PM
1.158.223.134
|
Comprehension, Psy-ops and the Intelligence division would be working on the Clans issue from day 1.
Results from the use of said information could come at anytime once a weak link has been identifies and exploited.
Timeline is at the discretion of each individual game master.
Dependent upon many factors…..
Quote:
You need local support, which the clans got.
Depends upon the cultural dynamics of the world in question as well as how the clans proceed to govern said world!
As stated previously they may get Quizlings – and yet at the same time they will also get the resistance.
A point that was completely lost on the Initial Invasion as well as all future invasions ….
And as stated if they do not get any Quizlings their ability to govern drops to nil and we enter guerrilla warfare with high powered sniper riles and IEDs etc – something the Clans WERE NEVER TRAINED FOR!
Also, their Base Security is a joke if all they have is a trinary to a world – they do not have enough people to enable any decent security requirements – not unless you want to run the entire base personnel into the ground!
Point is no clan can effectively Govern the multitude of planets required to reach Terra given their initial TO&Es.
Quote:
Missing the point that the clan leaders can and did use their positions to refuse certain pilots from being promoted?
Missing the point … said people issued a challenge got their leaders into a circle of equals – killed them and by intimidation alone took their place!
Building a rank system on who can kill whom only effectively creates a system whereby the most violent, ruthless and vicious come to the for …. Great way for creating an effective military!
The entire system is geared not to reward the most intelligent …. It is geared to reward the best killers! And that is all that was ever obtained.
Face facts the Clans are a bad joke – they are in no way a modern military fighting force – they are something from a bygone age that should have remained there …. They are the complete opposite of what they originated from and should have been killed off ….
As for all of them had to good with tactics – seen the difference between and officer graduating and something like Rommel …. This is the difference that should have been shown in the initial invasion considering the amount of people who were alive – as well as given the level of complexity of war both sides are used to – the clans use a bidding system as well as prearranged arena for fighting in – it is a clinical sterile version of war it is in no way the real thing! – the IS use the entire planet and every trick in the book and then some new ones – they only thing going for the Clans was advanced tech remove that and the IS would play Kick the can with them – in all reality TPTM nerfed any true response from the IS and all we got was extremely bad writing where all you can do is groan at how bad it is! (again in my opinion!!!!!)
All I can say is that I am so happy when I Nerf the Clans from the game and write my own plot.
Quote:
Underhanded Tactics
Again go back and read about LeMay and how the Japanese viewed him – then read about the medal he received from the USA – all he said was it great to be on the winning side otherwise he would have been brought up on War Crimes.
What the Clans believe is underhanded is normal SOP War – yes to every dirty underhanded and vial tactic imaginable to win. When used correctly would have destroyed the Clans as they are in no way prepared for a war to which the IS considers normal.
Quote:
Dragoons
Question
Wining the deep periphery where were the Logistical depos, the Dropship / Jumpship / Warship repair facilities, manufacturing facilities for their entire Military Industrial Complex, hospitals, advanced traing facilities for Sibkos (replacement personnel in a timely manner) – Reserve forces – as well as the massive number civilians required.
Point is having everything 6 months away and then shipping it in is the most ludicrous thing any military could undertake when considering an invasion of this magnitude.
Also when was the last report received from the Dragoons – so how outdated was the information they were using?
Sorry but again yes they completely and utterly nerfed the entire idea of creating forward bases that were required to be used as logistics nodes when prosecuting an invasion.
Again go back are review Overlord and Neptune – have a real good look at the complexity as well as the amount of resources required …..
The Clan invasion is a joke by comparison! (again my opinion)
As for holding off the Clans – how many opportunities were written into the story and were nerfed to allow the clans to remain within the IS? The entire invasion story is incredibly badly written!
Tanya the evil manga does a far better job of explain war than these books provided.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
05/28/21 07:28 PM
45.51.181.83
|
The clans were never trained for fighting against snipers and such, yet they produced the Dragoons to use the same tactics in the IS. A major contradiction, as the Dark Caste would well use some of those tactics as well. So this conclusion of not being trained for it is inaccurate. It was not a main tactic they used. Also rethink what head hunting is. The use of mechs does not change the idea of snipers.
Leaders can and did refuse to deal with challenges against them, as well as naming champions to fight for them. Simply put, the clans had politics and used them just as the IS did. They did NOT rely on them to keep them out of trouble. And no matter what, just because you challenge someone, doesn't mean it will end in a fight. Also, you can challenge someone and they could decide to fight un-augmented, which means no equipment. Or in an environment that you have never dealt with. It also does not mean the leader isn't the best fighter in the unit either. Another way to remove renegades is send them on a suicide mission. Underbid a fight, and let the person die, or be refused of Isorla. That shames the pilot to the point that most will shun him, IF the leaders allow them to be a warrior again. If not a warrior, then you do NOT get to challenge anything. Politics really bite.
Still not getting the fact that if you don't pass certain skills in training, you do NOT become a warrior. Doesn't matter if you are the most brilliant tactician every seen, if you don't become a warrior, you don't even get a footnote in clan history. There are goals you MUST hit in order to continue on. It is that simple. That is not saying every clan warrior is the absolute best tactician, but they do have to pass their marks.
The clans were building the depots as they proceeded to the IS. But they had the materials already sitting around to do so. Even with the clans, I seriously doubt they could build a new station in 3 months, without having it all ready to go. And again, each clan had their own routes, so even more unlikely to build them without having the parts ready.
The hatred towards the clans has blinded you to the fact that the short comings you say are clan only, were in the game long before the clans were introduced. The idea that a planet went over to a conquering entity when the capital fell is a bit laughable. But the game seemed to be based on that fact. Since the 3rd war of surrendering instead of suicidal resistance was used, this is the norm.
Using underhanded tactics was some what, how the IS held the clans back, but the clans did overcome most of it. The fact that the clans were brutal to the populace, removed the concept of using a lot of those tactics. The idea of come back another day and retake what is lost, was the idea for the IS. The issue was the IS did not have another day to do so for the most part.
|
Requiem
05/29/21 06:54 AM
1.158.223.134
|
Please do provide where it was written that the Home World Clans were trained in anti-sniper activity.
Quote:
Leaders can and did refuse to deal with challenges …
And when rumours emerge that the leader is afraid …..
They view themselves as genetically superior to everyone … if that if brought into question they will have no choice but fight, that is unless they can put up with all the gossip ….. accusations of being a coward, failing their Clan, being of inferior stock ….
And how many died un-augmented …. even Rose was able to do this in the hold of his dropship ….
As for Khans killing off political rivals is just par of the course within the age of politics ….
Still not getting it the IS has courses whereby the best and brightest minds can still make the grade within HQ, without being a Mechwarrior, thus the IS has a competitive advantage over the Clans with regards to recruitment ….
Quote:
The clans were building the depos as they proceeded to the IS
A day late and a dollar short …. As they proceeded
This is a massive invasion and as such requires a MASSIVE logistical and technical support apparatus – this should have been started years in advance of the main invasion in order to achieve the logistical standards required for the invasion.
In all reality 20 years would be my starting date given that it takes 6 months just to get back to the Clan Home worlds …. The massive number of military and civilian industrial complexes in order to create such a chain of logistical worlds would have required a massive amount or manpower.
Quote:
since the 3rd war of surrendering …
Problem is both sides knew what to expect when captured by one house or the other – The clans are an unknown – who has some very stupid ideas when in comes to the family unit as well as class status and the rights of people within that class ….
Their way of life is completely unacceptable to that of the IS …. This alone would result in a never ending war.
Quote:
… but the Clans did overcome it
Only with the assistance of the TPTB … in all reality, over time, the wars on most planets would have devolved into years, something the clans have never had to fight in the past and would have resulted into a meat grinder …. And yet what we were given is a joke of an invasion ….
The clans are in now way designed as an invasion force that is capable of sustaining a protracted war!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
05/29/21 07:06 PM
45.51.181.83
|
Learn about the clans before posting, please. The Dragoons had anti sniper infantry as well as commandos and other dishonorable units when they got to the IS. Are you suggesting that the freeborns were picked for those skills. I want to say one of the posts that this was discussed you suggesting the Scorpions trained them. So the great comprehensive reader can't figure this out?
If someone suggests the leader was a coward, more then a few of their supporters would counter this. But the only time an accusation would stick is if they said it directly to the person they were calling a coward in front of a crowd. With clan indoctrination, this is pretty well silenced when the CO says be quiet. Rumors are looked down on, as it makes the complainer look like a whiny little sibko trainee.
Again. Learn how the clans act and think. They didn't plan to invade every world in the IS. They planned for a quick strike to Terra and thought the IS would fold, once the clans held it. The leaders basically ignored the Dragons, then their own operatives they sent, that the IS wasn't some drunken unskilled barbarians ruining paradise.
I believe someone suggested they were preparing for the invasion back before the Dragoon solution was agreed upon.
Try expanding your concepts a little. The hatred between some of the states were so bad, that newly conquered worlds would be purged of those the winners thought would be trouble, or moved to worlds where their own people would remove the threat. The DC and CC were two of the major ones to do this, but even the FS/FC did this as well.
As for those taken by the clans, they thought their houses would liberate them shortly, so instead of suffering, they went along with it.
The clans would not waste time and materials trying to train those that could not learn to do their jobs. Failure rate for the IS sibkos would have been high, and the children returned to their parents rather quickly.
Again. Learn the actual invasion plans. They were NOT expecting a protracted war. They ended up with it. This is not saying TPTB didn't screw up with this. The fact they continued and made it worse is the bad thing.
As for Rose and others, the story tellers couldn't kill the hero, so they had to make some bs way to clan commander in one on one. And the writers are well known for ignoring the games actualy rules to come up with something entertaining. A mech going a forward flip and not landing, but gliding over a crowd is but one of those.
Come to think of it, anti sniper training should be standard, just like calling in artillery(idf) would be.
The one falcon commander had ordered his pilots to eject when he had to recertify. Vlad called him out on it.
Clan Wolf also provided special training for the fledgling unit to mask their origins. This training was backed up by Star League records and holographic video provided by advisers from Clan Goliath Scorpion, who would also send their elite Heartvenom Cluster for purposes of instructing through mock-battles against the Wolf warriors.[5]
Edited by ghostrider (05/29/21 07:09 PM)
|
Requiem
05/30/21 07:59 AM
1.158.223.134
|
Quote:
Learn about the Clans before posting, please
Since when can anyone compare the Wolfs to the Clans?
Really? Even though they are supposed to originate from the same historical background – can anyone really call them the same?
Case in point their commando team et al – where has any other clan utilized a similar force anywhere within the invasion? …. ie. only toads …… nothing ever representing the commandoes ever appear – even within PGCs.
So again – the Dragoons may have Commandoes et al – but the Clans have absolutely none!
Quote:
… more than a few of his supporters would counter this
POLITICS …. And more of the other warriors supporters would intensify their attack …. As an example that which is occurring currently!
Quote:
They didn’t plan to invade every world in the IS
First – did they believe that once they wone Terra every House would just capitulate just because …? Can I laugh now? What are they children in their views?
Second – Mathematics does not lie – given the numbers suppled for each Clan’s TO&E for the invasion once they hit the ¾ mark (or there about) given the number of worlds within each corridor they have captured they WILL run out of forces for the front line due the requirements of garrisoning each of these worlds …. This is even despite the use of PGCs – if you actually read each Clans Touman you will find that they actually do not have a large number of PGCs - so unless the TPTB massively rewrite everything the invasion just does not work! They do not have a military force sizeable enough to complete the invasion – The only way this can be done is via a Trial of absorption and whomever looses also looses their entire invasion corridor (returning it to the IS) and then continuing on with the invasion!
However problem is they would both obliterate each other than capitulate – however as seen in the Falcons Vs Wolves TPTB cheated – did not allow the IS attack the weakened Clans and even allowed then to return home – and take forces from other Clans and return thus providing them with a new 100% fighting force – despite the fact that the home Clans or even the other IS Clans should have initiated a Trial of absorption upon the remnants of both the Falcons and the Wolves – which again is the most un-Clan like thing to do and is cheating! (again in my opinion).
Quote:
Purges
Really …
Quote:
so instead of suffering they went along with it
How did that work out for every invading force entering every county ….. sooner or later home may partisans are there? How many fight for how many centuries in an effort to gain self determination?
How long did the FRR fight for their independence against the DC – and now we are supposed to believe they stop this and jus roll over for the Clans? Time to get real ….
Quote:
and the children returned to their parents rather quickly
Sorry this is not SOP for the Clans at home … so why would they do this whist abroad ?
Quote:
They were not expected a protracted war
Then their logistics from day one should have been incredibly iffy – thus their ability to conduct a long term war is non existent – thus why don’t we ever see this in the invasion? TPTB completely ruined the storey with how badly written it became.
Quote:
And the writers are well known for ignoring the games actualy rules to come up with something entertaining.
And by taking this view we ended up with a story that has no believability ……
As for the First Cateran Cluster – this training was in 3001 – and they remained on the Home Worlds … so nil to do with the actual invasion 3050.
Sorry but this is the problem the Cannon Clans are in no way what they should have been given their origins gone very wrong (in my opinion) …. The flow of history is completely disjointed it parts - makes little sense in major points throughout history – and many of the key people once you conduct serious research into them are full of inconsistencies or have facts that make absolutely no sense whatsoever and just make you wand to laugh at the complete absurdity due the facts given …
This is the point – the Clan invasion has way too many problems! (again in my opinion!)
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
05/30/21 11:47 AM
45.51.181.83
|
What do the Watch personnel train in then? Infiltration, security systems, and quick kill would be but three things. I would suspect they are trained in other things, but use them so rarely, they are not printed. There have been noted of clan units making bombs out of normal materials. Elementals can use their anti personnel equipment to snipe enemies. Part of head hunting for them. So there is no real special skills that aren't known to the clans for a sniper.
When the clans invaded, they had a stricter policy of 'honor'. Now that the IS ways have infiltrated the clans, they are changing just as you wanted to. They see that you don't have to follow the clan customs, so have become much like the IS. Politics of using position to cover your weakness in the skills that were once admired in the clans has become more and more common. Might as well compare humanity to the cave man and say today represents what we were.
What do you think the clans would do if the Grand Council was beaten? Do you think all the clans would see this as their defeat and except it? As most clanners would not believe the IS would fight on after their leaders surrendered, they were shown how wrong that thought process was. But again. Once the leader surrendered, there was rarely any fighting that went beyond that moment. Those that did were dezgra and exterminated by both sides.
Lack of understanding the clans shows again. The clans were brainwashed into believing the IS was a bunch of weak cowards that were just partying in the blessed SL worlds. No real backbone or skills. They ignored the dragoons reports for the most part. To do otherwise would have caused the Crusaders to look foolish and stupid, which would have destroyed their power base. It would also sky rocket the Wardens position as most would have deemed it stupid to try the invasion.
So what was the policy of the clans in failed freeborns that flunked out of testing? Trueborns had no real family that they knew of, so couldn't really go anywhere, but learned to live outside of the 'elite' living of warriors.
The statement: They were not expected a protracted war
Your answer: Then their logistics from day one should have been incredibly iffy
Most of the invading clans did have iffy logistics. They figured like 15 good battles and it would be over. Munitions could be taken from the enemy with only repair items and replacements needing to be from the home worlds.
Looks like expectations of what the clans could produce in a short time was horrible in your opinion, as it seems you think they can not make 100s of times more items then they did before the invasion. I will let this slide, as I have no seen any print on just how much, or how little the clans can actually make in a given time span. Still, your response is the very thing you are complaining about. Not sure if you even see that.
The flow of history is completely disjointed it parts
This is the ENTIRE story of the IS, not just the clans. The novel writers don't stick with the rules. That is a fact. But those that are supposed to be writing the history of the universe are a problem. They were supposed to be writing the history, not an entertainment story, having to keep it interesting. The fluff and the fact that it seems most of the advances and rule changes aren't adhered to in updates and such.
Believable? Most sci fi stories have flaws that make them unbelievable. Gundam Wing being one of them. Super machines that can destroy fleets that were not used consistently by those defending their worlds? Having weapons that other units don't have? Robotech having the ability to take a shattered world and train enough pilots to create the REX and RDF with the numbers they got as well as having most of the planet in ruins during the Invid saga?
The clan invasion has issues. But as said before, the whole history has issues.
The DC should have never made it to a main house due to the numbers of troops. The CC would have fallen apart before the 3rd war due to the Liao's hording the money and keep the citizens as poor and under the thumb as they can. The FWL should have splintered under their own rules long before. The LC would have had so much infighting as the rich fought more battles with the rich for control of the state, with Skye going independent. The FS would have never formed as the march lords would not have given up their power, and without the strong CC and DC, never would have had to do so. The SL probably would have never formed, as the TH would have been able to expand outwards, without having to deal with the great houses. The periphery would not have formed the large organizations due to the lack of need as the great houses would not have come about.
|
Karagin
05/30/21 03:14 PM
70.118.172.64
|
ghostrider wrote:
Quote:
. The leaders basically ignored the Dragons, then their own operatives they sent, that the IS wasn't some drunken unskilled barbarians ruining paradise.
I believe someone suggested they were preparing for the invasion back before the Dragoon solution was agreed upon.
It's not that they ignored it, they didn't believe the reports, not at first, and recall the Wolf Clan Khan Ward (Jermone I believe) ORDERED the Dragoons to obey no recall but one that came from him only.
The Dragoons reports didn't paint a picture of the Inner Sphere as a major threat until their last supply run and that's when they got new orders. Prep the Inner Sphere for war with the Clans.
So yes the Clans had plans in place to invade the Inner Sphere, which is made VERY clear in all their literature from day one.
Quote:
Clan Wolf also provided special training for the fledgling unit to mask their origins. This training was backed up by Star League records and holographic video provided by advisers from Clan Goliath Scorpion, who would also send their elite Heartvenom Cluster for purposes of instructing through mock-battles against the Wolf warriors.[5]
This was added later on but still gives more to WHY the Dragoons were always looking for SLDF bases, depots, etc...as well as how they knew where certain things were like Outreach, etc...
Again, this is getting to be a repeat of all the other conversations, one person feels their version of the game is better and that's all they push regardless of what we point out.
The Clans didn't have long-term plans beyond, grab Terra and sort it out later, and that seems to be the current plan as well with Alric and the ilClan outcome.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
ghostrider
05/30/21 06:04 PM
45.51.181.83
|
The question of why Alric even exists comes up. Even for the wolves, mixing DNA of IS leaders would have been something the Trueborns would not have really allowed to prosper and eventually lead the entire wolves.
Given what went on during the era that Vlad rescued Katherine from her prison, it is unlikely the wolves would have even let that combination go.
The statement from the wiki about the special training was meant to show the clans did in fact know about warfare that did not conform to their honor codes.
The fact that a lot of things were put in afterwards, is part of the reason things are a bit wonky.
But the basics of the game still make it decent fun to play, so the game still lives.
And again. The players do not really alter the canon storyline, so most can basically ignore it.
|
Karagin
05/30/21 06:33 PM
70.118.172.64
|
Quote:
The question of why Alric even exists comes up. Even for the wolves, mixing DNA of IS leaders would have been something the Trueborns would not have really allowed to prosper and eventually lead the entire wolves.
Given what went on during the era that Vlad rescued Katherine from her prison, it is unlikely the wolves would have even let that combination go.
Just another reason the whole shoehorned Jihad/Dark Age stuff should never have happen IMVHO.
Quote:
The statement from the wiki about the special training was meant to show the clans did in fact know about warfare that did not conform to their honor codes.
The fact that a lot of things were put in afterwards, is part of the reason things are a bit wonky.
But the basics of the game still make it decent fun to play, so the game still lives.
And again. The players do not really alter the canon storyline, so most can basically ignore it.
They knew of other ways, they just tried to avoid them, since to the Clans that way of war was wasteful and not worthy of a true warrior. If anyone is claiming other wise then they have NOT READ any of the sourcebooks and spend too much time relying on the wiki here for their info, they need to read the sourcebooks, so much more is in those that don't make it to the wiki. I say that because the Wiki can't even keep maps up to date after changes in who the cool kids are as far as the TPTB go... Yes, I said that and I stand by it.
The basic game works, no rules exist saying a player has to follow canon, and another issue too many has when they confuse WH40K with Battletech. Anyone who claims you have to play the way the story is written out has either not been playing very long or is very confused as to what game system they are playing.
I know plenty of folks who won't play Clan tech. They will use the IS mechs with the SLDF Tech and things like that, but NO Clan tech or units. Which is cool, it works for them and it's fun to play at times. Just as it is to play nothing but Clan vs Clan.
I don't follow the canon timeline, infact I find it full of issue and all start more or less with Jiahd. I know some like that setting, I don't. Doesn't mean I am wrong, and thus I can play any era I want, or just have random fights between lances or more or less of mechs ,etc...
The game is fun, otherwise it wouldn't still be around in 2021.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Requiem
05/31/21 06:10 AM
1.158.147.1
|
The Watch - https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Watch
“ … When the Clan Invasion began …. However, centuries of ritualized warfare had caused the Clans to regard covert operations as not only dishonorable but unnecessary given their clear martial supremacy. Thus the Watch was ill-trained, underfunded, and ill-equipped, staffed largely by merchants, technicians and the proverbial "bottom of the barrel" from the warrior caste. The infiltration of opposing factions was practically non-existent, intelligence-gathering operations usually little more than eavesdropping on local newsvids prior to an attack, and even what data was gathered could not be properly analyzed given the Watch's insufficient capabilities. The resulting intelligence failures, numerous and spectacular …”
And yet given this level of ineptitude where do we ever see the effects of this occurring within the many Clan battles?
Elementals
Question – what is the maximum range of their weapon systems? Plus how any of them have shown that they are all bull on the battlefield and no stealth whatso ever …
Then compare this to the maximum range of IS infantry forces weapons and support weapons they can bring to the battlefield plus adding in sneak suit tech plus anti electronic chaff etc ….
And what you have is very-large targets for mass infantry that literally can end up being thousands to one on any battlefield ……
Quote:
What do you think the clans would do if the Grand Council was beaten?
War is as much concept as conduct ….. it depends upon how you deal with the Grand Council.
Quote:
Once the leader surrendered, there was rarely any fighting that went beyond that moment.
Sorry but this is never the case – there is always partisan fighting …. that with the arrival of new leadership rise and fall accordingly ….
Quote:
The clans were brainwashed into believing the IS was a bunch of weak cowards that were just partying in the blessed SL worlds. No real backbone or skills
How many wars have begun with such error – WW2 USA vs Japan comes to mind as an example …then there is also USA vs Vietnam …..
And yet once again I must ask where do we ever see the effects of this occurring within the many Clan battles?
Quote:
Looks like expectations of what the clans could produce in a short time was horrible in your opinion, as it seems you think they can not make 100s of times more items then they did before the invasion.
The issue is not in quantity – the issue is in regards to tyranny of distance – that pesky six months to receive any sizeable logistics
So if they planned for 15 good battles to win their overall logistics were incredibly short – thus in order to rectify this a ship (as there was no HPG communication at this stage as seen by the election of next il-khan) would have to run home – 6 months – request massive resupply fleet – in my opinion 3 months then rush back to the IS – 6 months – Thus a total of 15 months with absolutely reduced logistics during the first wars of the Invasion.
Again, do we see any logistical issues in the first few battles of the invasion brough on upon lack of supplies brought with them due to a complete and utter miscalculation as to the enemy they were to engage …. And the answer is NO!
Quote:
Believable? Most sci fi stories have flaws that make them unbelievable.
And yet Warhammer 40K, who has one of the most complicated histories is science fiction, is able to complete this with ease as they have a dedicated team in place to ensure that everything printed fits for the time and geographical in which the story relates to …and they are not beyond loosing whole areas and people … in order to ensure believability! And look at the immense size they have become.
If only!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
05/31/21 12:09 PM
45.51.181.83
|
A lot of the points you are trying to make come down to the rules being different then real life. A laser that can melt battle armor, should be able to take out a human on the horizon. Laser rifles have a decent range, yet can barely do a single point of damage to a mech, as they are the same ones Laser infantry use. Figure that one.
And the saving grace for the clans garrison issues was none other then Comstar. They took over administering the worlds, pacifying a lot of the populations. This is all in the books. Comprehend what is actually written, not what you want to see.
If not for that fact, the clans would have torched a few more worlds the Turtle Bay.
Once finding out they needed more supplies, they turned to the Sharks, which DID have things to sell. And once they realized they needed more, they could set up larger supply runs with command circuit style set up. 2 jumps, and shift the dropships to another jumpship that was already charged. One secured, they performed their two jumps making the trip that much quicker. They would also have normal one jump vessels going as well. The list of units for the invasion did not hold when the clans found out they could not continue with them in their bid. Also, the Sharks were not part of that bid, nor does it say they could not add more supply ships.
Let's see. Warhammer was built as a gaming system in what? 2000? about 20 years after BT was formed. So all that data on how to do, and not do, a gaming system. It was originally set up as a quick fight between large groups that morphed into the space game that is out today. It covers castles and knights as well as space marines. This is not saying the BT developers were good at fixing things, or even making sure what they were going to put out worked right. Mechwarrior the original RPG had a major issue with the stat numbers and skill levels. If you got 12 in two stats that combined to create the target for a skill such as gunnery, then got a level 8 in gunnery, you would be in negative numbers on a to hit. The Enforcer in the Davion house book, the first one, had armor on it that was over the ton limit for what armor was allocated. And in that book, it states that the mech had shielding in it to prevent the worse radiation in the compartment.
And I believe I am done with the BS of giving out the information to someone that supposedly read the entire game books, and won't bother to look up the information. OH yeah. You don't have all the books, so don't actually have the information you need to comprehend what is there.
Edited by ghostrider (05/31/21 12:12 PM)
|
Requiem
05/31/21 06:44 PM
1.158.147.1
|
Infantry Support Weapons
How many infantry support weapons are man portable and have far greater range than that of the Toads and the ability to penetrate armour or roast whatever is inside with Inferno rounds?
Also with just one set of communications gear and a map you can call in an artillery strike or call in an aerospace fighter attack on the ground or call in a VTOL strike with their weapon systems or my favourite a combination of all?
Toads are very conspicuous on the battlefield and should be readily delectable in comparison to that of infantry with sneak suits / camouflage / ECM / Chaff everywhere ….
…. we will use the fighters to pin them in place – then use the artillery for full force – then use the VTOLs to mop up any thing left and if anything survives all that send in the Infantry with their HE plastic - to remove whatever is left over….
Sorry but given the sheer numbers of any IS Infantry Unit vs the total number of Toads the Clans brought with them the IS (when armed correctly) should be able to roast these toads inflicting very-high numbers of casualties per battle – that cannot be replaced with a
Time to face facts the clans toads should have experienced very high number of casualties!
That is quite impossible to be replaced given the SIBKO system.
COMSTAR
Question being a Quisling government how did that work out for any of these governments throughout history – did any of them ever stop partisan activities? And how many were finally replaced or killed off by the people they were working for?
Sorry but basic history says otherwise to Comstar administering any world with any degree of effectiveness except by the quislings ….
All other partisan activity would be occurring as per normal and given the small number of warriors per world does not work long term …
‘Torched a few more worlds than Turtle Bay”
If this occurred – First Succession War / Jihad full biological / nuclear war against the Clans!
Clan Diamond Shark – as per sarna wiki
Whist acting as observers to the invasion the saKhan determined that she would visit as many conquered worlds as possible, take note of what supplies they needed, and report this information to the rest of the Clan so profitable trade could commence.
This quite clearly written Clan Diamond Shark Merchant fleets WERE NOT THERE for the initial invasion!
QED the logistical issues (lack of realistic supplies) for the initial invasion were completely ignored by writers.
Battletech – 1984 and Warhammer – 1987
Who has their own franchising stores all throughout the world and who is consigned to only selling via the web?
Who puts out massive number of books, audo books, models, game supplements etc every month and who only puts out a couple every year?
Sorry but Warhammer is far in advance.
And yes, they do have a team of individuals who do make sure the timeline is strictly adhered to when it comes to their in-game history due to geographic location …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
06/27/21 09:04 PM
45.51.181.83
|
I believe I had an epiphany with a post in another thread.
The concept of having to limit the forces all entity's have in order to allow small units to function and do their jobs.
For any that actually have contact with the original developers or know them, I would like to know if they purposefully did this to allow small units to function. I know the game did this to make mechs the sought after unit to use, but I want to believe it does have some basis on numbers of opposition verses things like mercs only having a lance or less.
In the alt thread, the suggestion that every world has what could be considered a real life number of military personnel, would mean you could not operate a unit with a small number of mechs/vehicles/fighters.
The sheer fact of running into a battalion of vehicles at almost any major defense point would prevent any unit like a lance of light mechs being able to do anything. It would not be fun at all with this scenario.
Not to mention the grind of just trying to get to the world you are to operate on, if it is enemy controlled.
I could see months of fighting just to start to gain ground on an invasion with several RCTs to each side, with more having to be brought in to negate militia and garrison forces, on top of reinforcements being sent in.
I do not condone the use of nukes, but could see why they would be used in this situation, as you are GOING to lose large chunks of your troops. This sounds like making an excuse for their use, which may well be. Even if you have more troops over the enemy, it does not mean you will win, even if you are, say a regiment of mechs up.
I think this is why the IS had to be in bad shape from the succession wars, otherwise there is no quick way to take any world.
|
Requiem
06/28/21 06:14 AM
1.158.147.1
|
Small units can still function!
Upon investigating every world within both the CC and the FS then placing this information into a massive excel sheet it is quite clear that there are still many great worlds that have little to no military value and yet will still require a Mech Garrison etc – a good example is Sherwood within the FS …. Contract to stop an illegal Tree Felling Pirates ….
Or how about Bryant within the CC – The federated suns have noticed this world has an A-Class HPG on world for a 63,000 population (3025) – history indicates that the storm inhibitors were destroyed during the Amaris War. Thus the many cities may still be intact – the spy organisation have placed a satellite in orbit and has noticed an unidentified Dropship descending to the your job is to go in and investigate …
If your unit distinguishes itself you may even get a gig on an important world ..
There are many, many more that can be set throughout the IS for small units ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
06/29/21 01:18 AM
45.51.181.83
|
Small units will now be part of larger units, which means you will be under someone else's commands. They will NOT allow you to go off and do what ever you want. You will be given orders and expected to obey them to the letter.
Having 10 regiments of troops on each world, means you will need at least 2 in order to even raid them, and that is not counting the aero forces that will be needed to distract the enemy. Pirates would not exist, as they could not field enough forces to really threaten anyone if there were huge forces on each world.
The SLDF had to deal with pirates, as they could not just attack anything that came their way, as they were politically stuck with the successor states. I don't believe any pirates hit the TH, since the SLDF could respond with massive forces, verses trying to deal with them towards the periphery.
Again, the point is missed. This last concept was that if the game had the large amount of forces, the small units could NOT survive long enough to do anything. You would have to be part of a larger unit, which rules out most mercs just starting out. You would not be independent. This also means you are at the mercy of the larger units commanders. They will probably send you out to soak up enemy fire, as to protect their units and allow them to claim that the commander is so great, the enemy died without doing much in return. And they would have evidence to prove it.
If things go badly, it is your fault and they would have evidence to show that as well. Mercs would be more of a political pawn then they are in the canon game.
The practice the DC tends to do in the canon game would be considered an every day thing, unless you were friends with the higher ups.
|
ghostrider
07/03/21 03:31 AM
45.51.181.83
|
A question came up from a discussion about shuttles.
As people seem to have custom mechs, vehicles, fighters, dropships, warships, and for some powered armor, how many people have made a custom shuttle that isn't a refueling shuttle?
It seemed odd to hear that canon doesn't have one set up to carry the heaviest combat units, yet it was said the person has made a super sonic VTOL.
This may violate one of the rules asking, but I am interested in the topic.
Also, would there be a legal way to make a shuttle that could carry a unit outside of the shuttle itself like they do in HALO? It can be crewed once it was set down, making it so it didn't have to take up pressurized space.
Another question came up that deals with actual space on a shuttle. If you can carry 60 tons of cargo, does that mean you can carry 2- 30 ton units, like a pair of Hunters? Or are you just limited in space to just one?
I would think just one, but would like more input.
|
ghostrider
07/09/21 03:54 PM
45.51.181.83
|
The question of what armor is used in clan elemental armor has come up in another thread, and it got me thinking about the max armor a mech can have.
I believe the armor on elementals is the same thing that is on mechs.
What if it is different?
It withstands the same damage as normal armor. The idea that is would be lighter, so the powered structure that is part of the elemental armor could move it easily. If so, why wouldn't the rest of the clan units use this armor instead of the heavier and bulkier armor that is normal armor?
This raises the question of why mechs are limited to double the protection of their internal structure? I know it is to make sure that mechs aren't so overpowering that nothing else can touch it.
But what is the reason for this limit?
It isn't weight of the armor limiting it, as ferrous fiber just has more protection per tonnage. So that can't be it. And with ferrous fiber, it can not exceed the protection even though the armor is lighter.
So what bit of logic am I missing to solve this issue?
Modular armor came out to change this, which allows over the limit, at a cost. But the fact this can happen means the limit isn't correct. Simply adding a little more internal structure to the mech, to hold the armor should allow more armor to be mounted normally.
So again, what am I missing?
|
ghostrider
07/26/21 02:40 AM
45.51.181.83
|
It is a bit funny and odd that when the Helm Core came out and TRO2750 was published, I had gotten the 3050 book at the same time.
I had thought the Star League had all the clan weapons that were not clan exclusive, including all the LBX size canons, the ultras, streaks, and ER lasers, but thought they were left out as they were corrupted in the core, or not researched enough to manufacture.
Granted, I did not think they were the same weight and crits, just that the SL had researched them all.
A what if comes to mind here.
What if the IS did have all those variants done up before the clans came, if they would have made an impact on the outcome, other then TPTB wanted the clans to be that superior?
I would think just the ERML would have changed more then a few outcomes, as the range would have competed with the clans. Not matched, but at least not have to close within the 9 hex range.
I would also think having the ultra and lbx 20's as well as the streak 6 pack would have done a lot as well. But this might also have affected the 3039 war as well.
|
Karagin
07/26/21 09:26 AM
70.118.172.64
|
I think you are on the right track, the items that go on to be Clan tech, like all the LB-X and Ultra and Streak, etc...all were researched by the SLDF. That would make sense and would really make the prototype stuff we see added in, on top of the massive amount of junk, fit the setting better and shows a linear path for the Clan weapons and a possible logical path for IS vs the mess that we got.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
ghostrider
08/08/21 12:53 AM
45.51.181.83
|
A point was brought up that I find interesting.
I know the game likes to keep things simple, so this is just a point, not intended to be done in game.
But shouldn't laser damage to buildings be dramatically reduced?
The whole concept of them having to remain focused on a single point in order to do damage would mean the beam should burn right thru the building, and without catching it on fire, do little damage, as it will only create a hole the size of the laser itself, without touching anywhere else?
As you are not supposed to be able to sweep the beam, this would be like damage to infantry units.
|
ghostrider
08/08/21 02:23 PM
45.51.181.83
|
Another point came up with anti mech infantry.
Given the 'official' pictures in the older books, wouldn't the Anti mech infantry be required to have a completely different uniform?
You are talking about possibly climbing onto a mech that is probably running hot from combat. I would think the soldiers would be getting cooked from the head radiating off the mech. This should be especially true if they are near the heat sink vents.
Techs are said to have to have a work cubicle when working on mechs right after a battle.
|
ghostrider
08/11/21 02:31 AM
45.51.181.83
|
Had a question come up which I would like an answer to.
How does gunnery skill work verse the computer locking on a target?
That novels and video games set up a lock on a target, with the game rules suggesting the battle comp is in charge of doing so. The Streak is a prime example of this.
Yet the persons gunnery skill is supposed to determine wether they hit or not.
Something of a circular logic is formed from this conflict.
This is true of having things like multiple medium lasers on say a hunchback variant, that some hit and some miss. Even spreading across a target hitting legs, arms, torso, and even the head. I am not talking of a secondary target, but all on one. Then comes in the pulse laser factor. They are supposed to have micro movement in the targeting set up to provide a more accurate firing pattern to do more damage.
I know this sounds picky, and it probably is.
There are times when the pilot can out perform the computer with shots, or so the fluff brings out. How does the pilot override the battlecomp to perform this?
|
ghostrider
08/11/21 11:41 AM
45.51.181.83
|
The problems expand when firing multiple different style weapons. Lrm tend to arc towards a target, while srms seem to need to be aimed up some as well, so they can reach their limit, while lasers are basically point straight at the target, while canons need to lead their target some. Not sure if PPCs are instant hits or not, but even they have their quirks.
All of this is bad enough when spread around a mech, but when they are located on a single point, like an arm, it becomes more of a mess. Even a turret would have issues with needing to aim at different points when firing.
This is especially true with an alpha strike. All weapons firing at once, not even the slightest pause between the different weapons firing. The enforce would be a decent example. Firing the have to remain on a specific point large laser, being fired at the same time as the recoil from the AC 10 would be shaking the unit. Or so all the novels and fluff suggest.
Edited by ghostrider (08/11/21 11:50 AM)
|
ghostrider
08/15/21 09:17 AM
45.51.181.83
|
This just in....
A copy of a Computer Core found on the ex-Smoke Jaguar planet Huntress has finally been decoded and now we know why Kerensky launched the war against Amaris and left the Innersphere.
It turns out Stephan Amaris had decided to make avocadoes the official food of the Terran Hegemony and the Star League. This upset Kerensky so much, as he hated avocadoes, to the point of having to remove Stephen Amaris from his position. In protest, the House leaders adopted the same stance on avocadoes and made them the national food for each state as well.
This stance gave the General the notion that there would be no compromise to even begin reforming the Star League, so he decided to leave the innnersphere.
On a side note, it turns out the RWR was already mass farming avocadoes, and was set to flood the rest of the houses with massive amounts of avocadoes, all of which Amaris personally owned.
This explains why Omi Kurita loved Avocado toast.
Stay tuned for more news as we continue the decoding of the core....
|
ghostrider
08/18/21 02:46 AM
45.51.181.83
|
The idea that so many HPG units, the large ones as well as the smaller ones, would lead to the issue that attacks from one nation would be difficult to launch while the units are active.
It would be quick and easy to relay information about units leaving their posts, as well as dropships they might be on, with others watching for those very dropships at stations and such.
This means the enemy will have a good idea of where the troops came from and how to counter it. Maybe even invade the areas that the units left from.
Yes, moving troops around is a means of confusing the enemy, but then knowing what is fake and what is real is intel's job.
So is this how the SL was able to secure locations?
Being able to send units to areas that someone would try to stage from or show up in an area left underdefended?
It could be projected that this is why the SL did poorly against the periphery, as the SL didn't have agents to keep a more accurate update quicker, while the periphery would have had that data?
I know the use of nukes was a big issue, but knowing when and where the SL was at with what forces would have helped wipe out more troops with less nukes.
|
Requiem
08/18/21 05:07 AM
124.184.134.200
|
Quote:
So is this how the SL was able to secure locations?
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Star_League_Defense_Force
2764
Over 15,000 regiments – organized into 125 BattleMech divisions, 200 mechanized infantry divisions, 75 jump infantry divisions, and the remainder as independent regiments
Combined into 20 armies – 3 each for a Great House, 1 each for the Terran Hegemony and Periphery
Each area throughout the Star League is effectively garrisoned by the SLDF.
However, I would like to point out one small error with this division of men and materials – Larger Military Regions, such as the Lyran Commonwealth and the Federated Suns have been provided with the same amount of SLDF units as the Capellan Confederation. Thus, where the Confederation is now effectively locked down the same cannot be said with the Suns and Lyrans whose sheer number of worlds would now pose a problem to effectively monitor all of them. Whist the smaller Periphery states would be virtually tripping over the number of SLDF units on all of their worlds – so it is no wonder they came to see the SLDF as an occupying force.
As for why the SLDF performed poorly within the Periphery states – my bet is on bad habits, soldiers have been known for it throughout history if discipline is not maintained - considering the Magistracy of Canopus this is not hard to believe.
Other suggestions – Poor leadership (as it only the periphery!) – Surprise devastating first attack (including terrorist acts) – The Periphery just had better officers that that of the SLDF … and the list goes on – though considering the size and assumed professionalism of a SLDF Army it is difficult to understand how this occurred.
As for communication – I would assume on-world yes the Periphery should have the upper hand – off-world not so much – Though if you factor in communication as a reason for why the SLDF did so poorly I can only suggest that the Periphery had access to Black Box Technology.
As for nukes this raises an interesting question – where were they made and stored – how were they distributed? As wouldn’t such devices be on the prohibited weapons list for any Periphery state during the Star League era – thus, in order to make them, it would require a clandestine operation hidden away someplace?
For that matter I would like to know this for EVERY great house – where did they make theirs and where did they store them as during the First Succession war you would assume that every manufacturing facility would be a primary Target for bombing. And yet what info is there?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
08/19/21 12:06 AM
45.51.181.83
|
Had some thoughts on the black box and the HPG relays.
What is the max range of the Black Box signals?
In the story line, the signal sent from Lutien was to reach New Avalon telling of the impending clan attack. As this is not an exact point to point communications device, would the TC have gotten that signal at some point after it went past New Avalon?
I know the TC wasn't supposed to have the black box technology, so wouldn't actually receive it, but that does not mean the signal wouldn't have made it there.
This leads to the question of the large HPG systems. 50 Light Years is supposed max for instantaneous coms, but does the signal just end? Or will it continue past the target?
This also makes me wonder if the need for 'pinpoint' connection means warships could not contact one another in different systems, but would have to contact a planetary system.
If they can contact ships in another system, then how wide is the actual HPG beam? A warship could be anywhere in a system, not just the jump points.
This comes up as someone was suggesting a black box in the clan home worlds could send a message to the CC and beyond, and get a message back as well. It might take years, but in game rules, it seems possible.
The fluff says they added direction and coded transmissions to the FC boxes.
This also has the implication that the SL had made the boxes, they should have been able to send information across a full house border.
|
Requiem
08/19/21 06:43 PM
124.184.134.200
|
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Black_Box
After reading the above post I must have forgotten this information
The Black Box came first prior to the HPG?
It was used during the Reunification war even 200 kilobytes of information at a go within 100 light years at 10 light years per 24 hours. Though they couldn’t they send multiple transmissions that circumventing the information size restriction?
Was there a chain of Black Boxes established every 100 light years between Terra and the Front Lines during the Reunification War? Thus how many of these could have been built? Also wouldn’t you now want every ship to have a Black Box for communication between the fleet and their respective ground forces?
How many were built? This is Star League after all thus mass production is not beyond the realm of belief.
This therefore should have increased the speed of war and yet didn't?
What this also suggests is the message is sent not in a direct line communication but is sent out to everyone within the sphere with a 100 light year radius.
I would also like to ask with regards to the later models where is the massive power requirements coming from in order to reach these vast distances? Sorry but the later models, in my opinion, are stretching reality a little too far!
Also, if ComStar became aware that the FC were using Black Box technology why didn’t they enter into Anti-Black Box communication technology – effectively making this technology useless in order to maintain their communication monopoly?
I would also like to point out one point – if Black Box technology was decommissioned in 2614 why is a spy on the Hermes using one during the Prinz Eugen Mutiny August 2785? It is an antique a curiosity at best once decommissioned were they all destroyed so where did Kerensky get his?
Did his forces use them during the Amaris War as a communication device?
Also once the Prinz Eugen moves beyond 100 light years there is no way of communicating with Kerensky – also the spy must know the exact location of the Eugen to let Kerensky know where they are as this is a fax machine after all – no triangulation capability – also there is a massive time lag 24 hours per 10 light years distance, therefore when you factor in the time it takes to recharge a ship once they know they are being hunted they could easily have performed multiple jumps to get away ….
So again this is sounding more like wishful thinking that Kerensky was able to re-capture the Eugen …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
08/19/21 09:09 PM
45.51.181.83
|
if Black Box technology was decommissioned in 2614 why is a spy on the Hermes using one during the Prinz Eugen Mutiny August 2785?
Why would they decommission the Black Boxes in 2614? The Big HPG network only started forming in 2630. There is a 16 year difference that the 2630 was when the first message was sent over the big boys.
100 Light Years is a little over 3 normal jumps.
Now for some numbers. The DC sent the message from Luthien with the black box. Even if they had the latest and greatest black box tech, the signal would never haver reached New Avalon, as the K-3 only had a 500 light year distance. That is less the 17 jumps. The signal would never have reached according to the wiki entry's numbers. The novels always leave out real numbers for a lot of things, but this is supposed to be canon numbers.
The first FedCom improved production model from 3027, it was implemented and used during the Fourth Succession War. It increased the speed and range to twenty-five light-years per day and two hundred light-years respectively.[6]
So this says they started building improved units before the 4th war.
This smells even more fishy.
As the first Draconis Combine built model, the K-1B, from 3041, has a range of two hundred and fifty light-years.[6]
While not completely lax in their encryption protocols, neither the Lyrans nor Suns believed that the Combine had access to their technology, and so many of their messages were intercepted and used against them during the war.[4] ComStar also became aware of the black box technology, and stepped up efforts to target members of the Department of Military Communications,
Black Boxes were apparently unaffected by the events of August 7, 3132.
The fact the DC had them prior to the 3039 war explains a lot, and them being unaffected by the 3132 events suggests comstar could not use their tricks to knock them out.
Not sure if you can block the transmissions or not, but if you can, it might explain why they were not used in the clan invasion. Really changes the way things look.
|
Requiem
08/20/21 01:02 AM
124.184.134.200
|
Also, in order for the DC to effectively utilize the Black Box as a listening device they would have to have multiple Devices scattered along their border, similar to a machine gun with overlapping fields of fire, they to would have to be placed with overlapping fields in order to capture all communications sent to their opposite number along the border.
Thus, I would like ask, how long the DC required in order to reverse engineer and mass produce for their own intelligence operating?
Also, if they are able to reverse engineer this piece of Star League era equipment then why couldn’t they reverse engineer Clan Weapons Tech. as each is of extreme military importance?
As for the Clans – They had no reason to believe that the IS had Black Box Technology – Wolf’s Dragoons intelligence reports would have said as much.
Also why would the Clans re-establish an outdated and antiquated communication device and then design a means to jamming it? – as is this not the definition of waste? – in engineering and scientific development – especially when none of Clans utilise such a means of communication.
Thus the only people who are using such a device are the DC and the FC.
Not utilizing them within the Clan invasion is the act of a madman – as it stands the Black Boxes have not been thought through at all as far as I can see. There are just too many unexplained situations that really have not been thought through at all and I am completely disappointed with their use within game.
Changes must be implemented due to the multitude of black holes in their existence.
It is like so many other interesting points in the canon history – a couple of lines then nothing … nothing at all to flesh the story out and see if it is going to lead to a great story …
for example https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Nicoletta_Calderon one of the more 'colourful' side stories ... "Nicoletta met personally with Richard Cameron for the second and last time in 2765; her disdain for a man that kept both his sisters bound to incestuous relationships made for a 'colorful' exchange that only infuriated the First Lord and amused the jaded High Council."
Can someone PLEASE flesh this out as it would make for an interesting read - as if you read it that Richard had two sisters who were with the Calderon's in Taurian space then wouldn't they be heirs to the Star League? Or if you accept that His sisters is a typo and should be her sisters can someone say who Nicoletta's sisters are and whom in the family has them - and in an enlightened state such as the Terran Hegemony how is an incestuous relationship tolerated?
So now I have come to the conclusion that, in all probability, the Prinz Eugen and her small fleet should have escaped, even if they had even jumped once away from the fleet - the idea that Kerensky happen to have a spy on board and he/she happed to have access to the navigation data and he / she happed to have access to a 170 year old communication device (and Kerensky back at the fleet also had a second one) and they both happened to be operational at the same time is taking things waaaaaay too far …
If this is believable then the only logical scenario is that Kerensky has had hundreds of these made, prior to the exodus, for EVERY spy on EVERY capital ship in the feet and what this alleges is that he is a stark raving megalomaniac who uses his spies to ensure the peoples compliance as he fears being rejected (just as the Council lords did to him) …. Again!
And I now wonder if mental problems ran in the Kerensky DNA at this stage?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (08/20/21 01:47 AM)
|
|
|
Extra information
|
0 registered and 66 anonymous users are browsing this forum.
Moderator: Nic Jansma, Cray, Frabby, BobTheZombie
Print Topic
|
Forum Permissions
You cannot start new topics
You cannot reply to topics
HTML is enabled
UBBCode is enabled
|
Topic views: 173404
|
|
|
|
|
|
|